A Honest to Good Aggravated Criticism of Paid Modifications for vBulletin (Essay)
 

So before I continue, I'll just add that I'm posting it here because quite a few portions are relevant to vBulletin.org, namely many major mods going paid, no free alternatives to many modifications, rather annoying and sneakly advertising of commercial products in topics for the Lite versions with weighted feature lists and it references vBulletin.org and the vBulletin modifiction community. Never the less, as originally posted here http://dsultimate.net/Board/upload/blog.php?b=407, this is my long indepth opinion about some of the ripoffs some paid modifications are.

And I know there will be some arguing over the contents of this thread and people saying how many times it's came up before, but oh well...

I read all the titles and that one last line.

And yes, I do think you made your thoughts clear enough.

Remember not everyone has free time. I contributed most to this community when I was a lot younger, still at school and college (a good amount of years ago now). I didn't have to pay bills, or pay for food to put in my mouth and I had an abundance of free time. But times change, and now I have to support myself, pay for my education and pay my rent and utility bills etc.

I could sit around coding all day to give you guys something for free, or I could sit around all day coding something and make some money to support myself and avoid getting into debt.

Go figure which one I choose, and also note that a lot of the people on here have far more to support than I do. There's a lot of coders on here who have families to support. Do you expect them to give up their work for free too? :)

i did not even bother read your text all along... too long.. lol

I founded a complete free-for-all project once... it is called PostNuke ... you know it, everybody know it. Everybody was free to contribute, share and download all and everything, and our license was forcing everybody to release their addons for free, no possibility to have paid scripts inside the community.

After 6 month of development, it was come obvious that the plans to make it free were absolutely stupid. after no long, a bunch of geeks with no real knowledge of efficient coding were releasing addons and products for postnuke, and they flooded the market. the reason? there was no protocol -- we had one internally, but as the doors were opened,, imagine!

i've quit that project after 8 months of development *(version was 0.71 at that moment) ... and 6 years after, they are still at version 0.8 or something... they renamed themselves Zikula -- i suppose it's because of the past reference to a trashcan called postnuke!... but see, they decided to go "pro" to make a statement -- enough morons.

the internet is not a platform for free distribution. it's a reflect of the real life, where you have free and non-free stuff. you can have a car in various flavors... Lada, Peugeot, Ford, Ferrari... you decide what kind of finance you will invest to have four wheels under your seat. free cars ?!

The point isn't just that paid isn't a great thing, it's that things like the prices are ridiculous because they're often as high or higer than the core product, why encryption damages the product value and a few other things (like how it seems vBulletin and Invision get less free add ons than the free boards do likely because of an expectation that if you paid for the software you can afford to pay for add ons...)

[high]* Brad agrees with Dean[/high]

It was easier to find the time to contribute when I was younger...these days I'm getting up at 5am everyday and not coming home til 6pm at night. In other words even if I wanted to sit down and make some of the ideas in my head reality I would not be able to find the time.

Personally I've also moved in to other/harder things. For example I didn't feel my php skills were that great because I relied on the vBulletin source code for so long. So I decided to stop working with vBulletin and start learning php again from the ground up. I've also moved into C# and C++ and am currently working on a video game with a friend/classmate in my free time. Outside of programming I'm doing other things; Editing video, Networking, Tech support for more people then I care to count, becoming a better cook, driving and racing cars for fun and of course chasing any women that catch my eye.

Basically what needs to happen is a younger group of guys and girls will have to come in to the fold. There will always be a turnover here when it comes to the people posting modifications/styles, they will all need replacing at some point or another. We all can't sit around on our collective asses all day after all...damn I hate begin an adult. ;)

me too, work so hard :(

--------------- Added [DATE]1223419022[/DATE] at [TIME]1223419022[/TIME] ---------------

Oh yeah prices too high :eek: [are they trying to send their kids to the University with my money?!?!?]

Until you actually operate your own business, invest your money and time into developing and supporting a product, you really have no way of knowing what it takes. Saying someone charges too much for what they sell is understandable, but lets get real...you either pony up or you don't...getting pissed at what someone charges is rather pointless. Good business people know what they have to charge to remain competitive and still turn a profit.(that is what it's all about, afterall) In regards to people here not churning out quality stuff for free, well I have to say alot of that has to do with what Brad and Dean said but on the flip side, this place is full of leechers who show up here expecting to get the world handed to them on a silver platter for free...life just doesn't work that way. In regards to pirates, they are nothing more than punk thieves with huge ego's. Total wastes of oxygen who will never amount to anything worthwhile in life.

Quick 2c: I've had 3 custom mods made here for around $200 each, and they've all been exactly what I wanted and well worth it.

If you're looking for unique content, it's going to cost money.

Do you make money from your forums? Do you intend to make money from them? Do the paid features that you need help you make money? Would your members be happier by you spending some cash or taking some donations to get a new must have feature?

Did you answer yes to any of the above?

If you make money from someone else's hard work, they in return should have the same right to charge something for their time and your new found success.

The only point I may agree with you on is Encryption, but that is their right to if they want to and I didnt read your explanation for why you hate it, but personally If i can't see whats being ran on my server/hosting account chances are good it doesn't need to be ran. I know of atleast 2 vBulletin products I'd love to have but refuse to purchase because of encryption, but I'm not throwing a fit like a 12 year old over it.

encryption: Windows is encrypted... are you frustrated because Microsoft encrypted parts of the OS you use on your computer ?!... it's their way to hide some cool features they copied from Apple, but hey.. lol

i never encrypted my stuff though, and never will, even if in the next weeks i'm going full commercial/pro ... encryption is for some professional secrets you want to hide, but vBulletin is built from PHP and MySQL, both engines uncrypted... if i want to encrypt something, it will be because i create a complete new engine, nothing else.

but that was debated not long ago, last month if i remember right...

All your post is pointless and you dont even have one single correct arguement.

Do you know how hard is it to support and spend time with them plus code free addons for people you dont even know ? Do you think it is fair for you to spend your valuable time coding free addons instead of spending time with family. It is impossible.

Also everyone out there is creating a forum to make money. At least 95% target making money. Why should i code something free for someone who targets to make money ?

One last point : vBSEO is fairly priced as it is an addon which directly brings your site traffic i which also increases your earnings. The support is great so you pay and get what you paid for.

P.S : Hopefully noone will turn this thread into vBSEO discussion. Author made a point and i just responded.

Sorry, that's the WRONG model. Microsoft would in fact encrypt the whole planet is they could and ABSOLUTELY YES! EVERYTHING is frustrating about Micro$ so that's really a bad analogy. They are the ultimate scumbags that have driven the cost of living on this planet to where it is today. Maybe you are too young to remember but THEY introduced the $500 software packages and caused the whole concept of software piracy by their ruthless GREED. Its no secret that Micro$ intended to monopolize and dominate ALL software on the planet so that only THEY made $$$.

Encryption and Open Source which most of the stuff here is about are mutually exclusive and can not coexist. Encryption is in the realm of "Micro$" wannabees, nothing but greed driven, and nothing to do with piracy either. IMHO.

My 2.5 cents worth ...

:D

--------------- Added [DATE]1223433855[/DATE] at [TIME]1223433855[/TIME] ---------------

That's just nonsense! I think it might be YOU that need to do the homework. VBSEO is a scam and yet to be definitively PROVEN to work as advertised or have an "cause/effect" relationship to traffic flow to ones site in an of itself. Frankly, in my opinion, it is nothing short of a marketing ploy to exploit the market. Left to its own devices, VBSEO does nothing to generate the huge amount of traffic they claim in their marketing hype. The results of more than a few tests have showed no significant results without a LOT of SEO help that could do without having VBSEO installed!

VBSEO is one of the best con jobs in the vBulletin Community, similar in fact the the 419 scams, IMHO.

And may i ask when did you tested vBSEO , maybe you'll like to include your licensed url so i can check your review. If not you are just another guy who trolls around threads with useless information . You can reply via PM as i stated before i donot want this thread turn to vBSEO discussion. But if you post something like that you have to supply me the requested info otherwise you are just posting Bullshit.

First, this post does not have any adversity towards a specific person. It is the pure truth what I think about all remarks. I will not speak in a shallow manner so it might sound rough but believe me, I'm honest and say exactly what I think.

1. Why the hell is everything for money now?
If you would like to pay my mortgage and all other expenses that total up to $2,000/month, please let me know so I will stop working. All the free projects etc. you see out there survive on donations... I don't understand why people purchase vBulletin and do no use a free alternative. If you spent money on a good software and paid for it to get it, it is absolutely normal to expect to pay for other add-ons, if you want quality.

2. Prices from Hell?
The minimum fee I charge for my customers is 1,000.00, depending on what contract I work on. My current client signed for a 4,000.00 job. However he is getting what he paid for, quality and reliability. It took me 6 months to develop the product he wants. During this time, I did not get paid a dime. Now I collect the benefits from the long nights lost. I think it is fair, especially if the client saves money. Basically, my products will save him overall 7-12,000.00/year. So investing 4,000.00 is nothing for his benefits.

3. Lite does not equal feature non existent
When this community was born, I was doing a lot of freebies. Until I saw how many people ripped my code and did similar releases, while appropriating my hard work. It was allowed, because they changed 2-3 lines of code so it did not looked the same. Not to mention that other products were pure crap, in code quality... That made me decide that I will NEVER release anything for free, anywhere. It was an excellent decision, now I can make a decent living out if my products and services. Most of them are word to mouth advertised.

4. Encryption? What the hell?
I will never encrypt any of my work. I don't have to worry about it, the price tag is to high to worry about having them distributed on the Internet. ;)

That's all I have to say, I hope you see clearly what I'm talking about and why I take those decisions long time ago. They made my life a lot easier and pleasant... and saved A LOT of money to my customers.

Regards,

Floren

If it wasn't for Microsoft computers could arguably still not be accessible to the masses as they are today. Microsoft has done way more good than harm to consumers in regards to pricing of not only software but hardware, paved the way for tons of technology (who came up with it first or whatever is irrelevant, MS made it mostly accessible)

$500 software packages were around long before microsoft was and the same concept of piracy was present for ages.

Yes they did intend to dominate the planet. Its called business. You're in a business for profit, not to take a loss. Thats the great thing about it. All the prices they've set are consumer driven, if people didn't pay it, they'd either lower it or not make it.

But all this is neither here nor there as this is mostly about vBulletin addons, and i see a vBSEO battle looming :D

I totally agree with this, well said.

Another well said reply. Guys, if you want this and that in your forums (for free), check Community Server. They could sell you a forum license for only 20,000.00 and suply you for free with all the add-ons you want.

I think Dean pretty much hit the nail on the head ... another factor is that the complexity of the mods has increased since the vb 2.0 days. Today, some scripts are nearly as complex as the core forum product itself. Its not the simply "add this to line 113 to get this effect" stuff.

I agree with some of your ideas like people charging too much.I before released many free modifications and even a LITE version.But we have to live too.Everything costs money,even me going to the bathrooms costs me money.Water,toilet paper,water again and soap.If I wouldn't have to pay for anything,I would release everything for free,but since it isn't,I need to make a living out of something :).


Note: Oh and don't forget,some products are so highly priced because of the production price which also involves time making that modification.Jelsoft doesn't have to charge so much because they have ten-thousands of customers,but small websites like us,have only a couple.

I think Dean pretty much nailed it in his post. Lizard King and Teck also brought up some very valid points.

We can sit here and discuss all day how cheap add on's should be, or we can realize that you really do "Get What You Pay For".

vBseo is said to be overpriced by quite a few people. Perhaps that's the case. However, have you seen how many people use it? Apparently the modification is of importance and is priced as so. Is seo valuable to you? If so, purchase vBseo. If not, you can download one for free right on here.

Also, you sure can go ahead and wait for vbulletin to release any of the additions in which you would like to see included. But do you really think they all will? Vbulletin is above and foremost, a forum software. The potential is indeed immense and a lot can be done, but Jelsoft's priorities (at least i believe) are directed towards the overall forum aspect of things.

They have a wide variety of clients in which all use their software for a different purpose. Imagine every additional feature was included in vbulletin? Imagine if even their own add-ons (blogs, project tools) were built into vbulletin? Then you'd have clients complaining how about many unnecessary features were packaged and crammed in the product, making it not so popular anymore.

Why can add-ons be such a high price? If you're paying for a modification in which was already made and available for sale, i definitely don't see the need in paying anywhere over $xxx (and even then only for cases such as vBseo where people believe it's benefits surpass the fees).

Now, when you get into custom modifications (add-ons that you need for your website individually), I hope you don't ever expect these customizations to be "free" or "built into vbulletin". Or else, what purpose would your website have over the other hundred thousands that can do the same accross the web? Custom modifications can go well into the $x,xxx-$xx,xxx range as the extent of the features needed increase. And that's very common.

It all depends on what the end result is worth to you (and your website). Obviously people wouldn't spent thousands on modifications if they didn't feel it'd benefit them ;)

I'm not going to argue about vBseo, and I'm really regretting using it as an example after the massive amounts of arguments every time the topic is brought up about whether it works, doesn't work, etc. All I can say is, at least their product isn't encrypted any more, and has probably enough features to just about justify the price.

Did anyone seriously expect them to release Project Tools or a Blog add on?

I have no problem with custom coding costing a lot of money. But I'd expect as you said off the shelf prices to be a lot lower than that of custom coding, as mentioned in this paragraph:


No. Probably not. Not at this moment. I don't know.


Because they like vBulletin as a base product because of it's quality and features? Because they like vBulletin and think the prices are fair but not those of the add ons? Because just a few years ago it seems there were a lot more free modifications that caused vBulletin.org to be given a lot more as a reason for purchasing vBulletin?

I have nothing against custom coding and work, which is what you've described. Just it's steep for something off the shelf and made for many different websites.

The point here is more that releasing Lite modifications with no features or reason to install is worse than not actually releasing the lite version at all, especially if you promote the heck out of the paid product in the first post.

--------------- Added [DATE]1223451482[/DATE] at [TIME]1223451482[/TIME] ---------------

I'm not forcing anyone to release any modifications or whatever. Just saying about the paid ones, and the mistakes people are making with releasing the amounts of them.

Because 95% are not in it to make money, at least initially? I know a lot of forums set up because the owners were interested in the subject and helping others, and not because money was one of their goals or interests. Note the amount of forums with no ads or minimal advertising for example.

As I said before, I really don't want vBSEO discussion, because it's not the point of the topic, nor as I've seen before ends well.

Your comparison of pricing between vBulletin and custom mods is unreasonable.

vBulletin operates a high volume, low margin model to generate revenue. The cost of operation is amortized across thousands of customers. On the other hand, small mod developers can only expect low volume high margin models. Relative elementary business economics.

Exactly what he said.

btw, you can not evaluate that kind of things if you do not have the data in hands... or if nobody is able to explain the results to you -- teachers are needed here!

I could not have said it better. :up:

economics - learn it before you comment about an addon 'price'

If you can't price your product and move your product like vBulletin moves to keep your price in check with vBulletin itself, you've already failed. It's too narrow minded.

But what do I know, right? I just sit at home and post on forums.

Too many people think they can live off of one cool idea that "enhances" vBulletin. It's not that easy. ;)

I am unsure of the last time I have seen so much ignorance crammed into a single post.

Let me try to sum up a viewpoint as I am someone who has contributed a bunch of mods (big and small) to vB for free and some big ones that I charged for.

1. Most mods are FARRRRR more complex now adays then pre 3.5.
2. Complexity takes time, talent and dedication to create and even more so to support
3. If you expect me to spend months developing an add on for you and support it for you and not charge you for it, then I expect you to come mow my lawn once a week, take out my garbage and occasionally babysit my kids for free.

Coding takes time to do and even more time to develop the skill. No commercial moders are driving new Ferrari's from their scriptlets and why I should be your +++++ for nothing is beyond me.

One commercial script I wrote had well over 2,000 hours between coding and supporting it and I charged ?15 for it. That means that it cost you less than .01 per hour for my services. If I sold 1,000 then I made ?10 per hour (and 1,000 copies of a commercial mod is a lot to sell).

I could make about as much working at Burger King.

What about vBSEO? Who freaking cares if its a rip off, over priced or the owners just bought their own island. If they make money from it, good for them. Cost is relative to the purchaser. I use vBseo, I like the results I get form the product. Would I be happier if it was cheaper (or free) of course! But if the $200 was too much for me for the return of functionality, I wouldnt have bought it.

How many hours do you work for free at your job? I mean, what is with all of the employees now a days that wont work unless you pay them? What about overtime? FFS! If they work more than 40 hours in a week, I have to pay them even more! What is their problem????

Do you have adsense on your site, but tell Google to keep the money? You arent botherd? You are supporting the development of newer and better web technologies! You are alos providing service to your users!

Its ignorant, cheap, disrespecting, non contributing-to-the-pot welfare demanding posters like this that pretty much kill most professional coders desire to contribute anything to a community.

They are usually the first to skip reading any documentation, installation notes, or previous posts in a thread before wingeing about a problem.

Rant over :)

/me throw a copper to Sam...

*/ smack waves hey to Sam /* Nice to see you grace these pages again :)

OMG the socialization of code? Is that what they want?

Some people are never happy.

Damn, had I gotten that memo 5 years ago, I'd probably be...

People who have never taken that leap of faith will ever fully appreciate that concept.

The market will support whatever people are willing to pay - charge too much and you won't make much money. Charge too little and you might never make a profit.

Yo! Seriously, all I could ever afford was a bunch of Dodge Vipers. Ferraris are for the vB folks. :)

If you want everything free or on the cheap use SMF or phpbb for your forum and you won't have to pay anything.

Why is it you spend so much time moaning about the state of things and your perception of other peoples failures in the world of vB?

Why should we not use a decent piece of software that's well worth the cost just because we don't want to pay for modifications? Just because we paid for vBulletin doesn't mean we want to pay for pretty much everything else to go with vBulletin, since people here already have to pay for hosting and what not...

That is called the price of doing business. If someone is not in it for the money, they should use open source free software.

Sorry, but while helping with a few lines of code in a thread is something some of us have time for, coding and maintaining a complete add on modification is something that only kids might have time for. And the point there is when it's free, you get what you pay for modification wise.

Take a look around. The mods here do no quality control and when someone steps up and does do a quality control post, it's ignored. Think about it, a cool idea does not guarantee good code. Once again, you get what you pay for.

So others should work to produce you code for free because you paid vB a license payment?

Code some of these mods that should be free and support them. Then you could easily stand there and criticise others not doing it too.

So basically, Let's See you do better? That's not an argument, that's a logical fallacy, people do not have to be an expert in the field to offer their own opinion on the subject or criticise it. From a site I go to:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...bert%27s%20Law

Secondly, I actually know what supporting or releasing a modification is like, amazingly enough (*Points to profile and user title*)

So if you're not using a computer for the money... and if you're not using Windows for the money you should Linux? Seriously, think arguments through before suggesting something that basically says no one should ever use any paid software or goods in their life if they don't want to make money with them...

Considering Media Wiki, Coppermine Gallery or Wordpress, I'd say the 'get what you pay for' argument died with the recent internet. Then compare vBulletin to software many hundreds of times more expensive, and vBulletin does better.

So? vBulletin.org is a free resource for modifications, if there aren't free modifications, then there's no point to this entire website. And I know a cool idea doesn't guarantee good code. But having the OPTION, there's nothing wrong with that, and if you want to take one product or whatever over enough based on code quality, that's your decision.

All I said is that you get what you pay for and free is rarely good. Nothing more.

Choose wisely.

But don't complain. If you want better, pay.

Use this place with that in mind and we'll all be fine. ;)

Wordpress is free ... extensions and work for it is not... you break a lot of other stupid laws just by providing wordpress in your list... example: you want a good theme for wordpress, you pay for it; http://www.woothemes.com/ ...

when you buy vBulletin, there is NO STATEMENT written or even said that something else was provided for free... actually, ALL the extended services from Jelsoft are PAID too. support, addons, phone support, even the installation cost half of the software price... did you ever asked Jelsoft why they charged for an installation that takes 3 minutes ???

the problem with your entire thread is that you give not a single argument for releasing free stuff instead of charge for it...

I still can't believe the OP is arguing his case. There is no argument here. Go get yourself a wife, kids, and pay for education, and then try and release your mods for free and support them in between supporting your family, and having an education :)

I hate to play the age card, but you are sounding really naive here...

haha

I have enjoyed watching your transformation. Interesting stuff that reality and maturity?

I remember a day... Aw never mind. ;)

We've all been a young whipper snapper once, but unlike some when I didn't have the Benjamins to pay for these so-called overpriced add-ons, I put my mind to better use and made people pay me to make them, instead of making ridiculous and uneducated rants on public forums.