Beyond Hobbyist Programming
 

Hmmm... then you've totally got me wrong.

Anyway, I'm joining the Royal Marines in a few months (September) - at least that is a lot more rewarding. Money isn't everything you know?

This can be said for any profession. Why be a teacher, doctor, gas station attendant, programmer or dog trainer, when you can join the Royal Marines and have friends. Why can't people have a job and a social life? I'd say being shipped off in the military would be far less social than living at home. ;)

It's not a matter of being rich/greedy, it's a matter of having a job to pay the bills, so you can live a normal life.

Usually people who are self employed value this (among other things), but have to charge higher due to the overhead of running your own business versus being a paid employee.

Money isn't everything, but it does have an enormous impact on the quality of ones life.


Good coders come from, and are rare in all countries. Just because someone charges more or less it doesn't mean they are better. However, their demand may be a good indication if you can't go on code quality yet.

@ the people laughing at the fact people pay thousands on websites... these are the people who run businesses. They invest in their business to help it grow. This is where quality matters - efficiency isn't a big deal until you start serving thousands of users at a time. Security isn't an issue until you have to worry about privacy, or losing money when a site is down. Scalable code isn't an issue until you start adding to or modifying it down the road (or when project scope changes). New coders do not understand these things, and will continue to dish out crap to those who are willing to pay for crap. Not to bash any specific region, but most of the outsourced work (usually in the middle east) I have to fix or cleanup is an absolute mess, and costs the client more in the long run than if they dished out a little extra for quality to begin with.

Just because you can't see the difference, that doesn't mean there is none.

I maybe Boofo ;)

Guys, please don't take it out of context.

How do you work that out? In the Royal Marines you do have a social life - as well as getting to travel the world. Really, that is living life to the max.

I see coding as an hobby -- it's something I'd never do as a profession. I appreciate all people who do it as a profession, and wish them the best of luck. I just think there is more to life out there, and sitting on your backside all day will only make you regret it in years to come. :

I think we've gone way off topic hehe.

If you sit on your backside all day then yeah, you are missing out.

If you are self employed you can set your own hours, spend more time with your family, and even have them near when you are working. We're expecting a little girl this fall, and I couldn't imagine being away from them for months at a time. I am not limited to working in one physical location, which lets me travel as I want to. Best of both words? I think so.

I've travelled around a bit due to programming too... met a few clients of mine in North America, and will probably continue to meet them worldwide in the years to come.

Just because you are coding, it doesn't mean you sit on your ass all day and have no social life.

So... that is a bad thing? ;)

Where have I said you have no social life?

My point is being, I'd never do coding as a profession -- there is more to life. YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE! At least in the Royal Marines you get a sense of achievement ;)

I'm not on the computer as much as I'd like now - life is too short to sit in front of a computer all day.

Aren't you part of the helpcenter team?

Yes, I am. But my reply to that is, I work fast. I also pick the right days when I'm not doing much :)

Well, according to what you posted about that elsewhere, you said you spent alot of time working on it and that was why there was a paid version. Which is it? ;)

I do a lot of behind the scenes. It really isn't ready yet. I only work on HelpCenter when I'm online. Come on though, HelpCenter support so far has been great - I really aren't here to disappoint. Unfortunately, when I leave for the Royal Marines, I won't be able to work on it. Rest assured, we have Paul and other coders. You have to remember, I'm only 16 - a lot of my time at the moment has to go into my exams. :)

You can join the royal marines at 16?

Yes, you sure can! :)

Entry Requirements: http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.6251

You can fight and die, but you can't (legally) drink alcohol... good luck, it's a great cause, at one time, the world's most powerful navy...

Well, I can sleep well tonight and not have to worry about being invaded by England. If they are allowing 16 year olds in, then I will just spank the first one that shows up here.

Whew! That is a load off of my mind. ;)

They still drink though hehe.

It's going to be great. I plan staying in there until I'm in my 30's. :)

Talk to me in a year and tell me then what you think about staying in until you're 30. I thought the same thing when I signed up.

You never said you were in there? Why did you quit? Anyway, everyone has different preferences - were not all the same! Acutally Boofo, if you were in the Royal Marines - you would of known you can join when you're 16.

Yes, Bob. You are excused though. :)

I never that you said that. There's more to life than anything, the fact that you work as a programmer has little effect. It's life... you have to work to make money, and once you are older you will realize this.

Personally I would rather be with my family and friends as much as possible rather than be shipped off to make new friends while missing my family. Life is too short.

You can get a sense of achievement in anything you do as long as your heart is in it.

(Danny, feel free to split the thread up).

It goes down to preference then. Most computer users are seen as GEEKS. I've seen so many people who use computers a lot to be told to get a life. Most people really think that.

Yes, life is too short. So, why not get out there and explore the world? I've been working for a while (part time, of course) so I know how important money can be. But, there is still more to life. I'd rather be with the love of my life, than have all the money in the world. As I've stated earlier, money cannot buy love, friends ect. However, lets disagree to agree ;)

My problem is you are grossly stereotyping / judging people from an entire profession.

Ironically enough, it's the people who do this stuff as a hobby who are the geeks rather than those who do it professionally. Not to point fingers, but I think that would make you fall under this category, and also explain your attitude towards the matter. If you (or anyone) spends a ton of time on the computer not doing anything productive and its getting in the way of real social interactive, then yeah, get a life.

It's not bad to be a geek, as long as you don't go overboard. Who cares what your interests are; people shouldn't be so judgmental. There are tons of people here who ,if you met, you'd never know they spend all day online. All my of my serious contacts on vb.org are either married with children, or have been with their girl for years. One of them actually quit the military to work as a programmer for reasons I've outlined earlier.

Money is a novelty when you are younger, but when you live on your own then it's a much bigger deal. Trying to finance your car, or house, or take care of a family. The average adult probably spends their whole adult life slaving away to pay back their mortgage. It won't buy you friends, but the lack of it can destroy your life.

My point is that you can work however you want and still "live". If you think the problem only lies in coding jobs, then it's inevitable you'll have the same problem no matter what job you take.


Danny, maybe a new thread focused on working as a programmer?

Thread split...the topic didn't really start concretely, so the opening post is pretty random. Sorry!

There is more to life than any profession...Coders are unfortunately stereotyped as introverted anti-socialites, and it just isn't true. The majority of programmers I know are actually extremely well rounded individuals.

I understand what you are saying Jase - that you, personally, do not want to sit in front of a computer the rest of your life. That is fine, but you can't judge people who do sit in front of the computer for their profession. (People in the military have technology jobs sitting behind computers, y'know!)

As for myself - I went into college almost 100% sure that I'd major in Computer Science - but I immediately knew that it wasn't for me. I don't want a degree in Computer Science, I have no interest in how to compress images with efficient algorithms (But that's just me!). I'm majoring in English and Philosophy and I work as a part time PHP programmer because it's a skill I utilize for income and I still enjoy programming as a hobby as well. .

Different strokes for different folks. :)

Yes, I agree Danny and Sir Adrian. Please don't think I am dissing programming as it is very rewarding. It is just not for me as a profression. I do however like creating mods/hacks when I have spare time - it gives me a good feeling of helping users :)
Yup, I was going to do a tech job in there, but then thought I wanted to be in the action :)

I could tell that, since you're English is really good. I'm in the top set at school for English - although it's never been something I've liked. I guess I'm just a really sporty person. :)

From what I've learned in traveling, both the UK and AUS allow for military enlistment at 16.

The US I believe is 18 and +.

Yes, it is 18+ in the US. Although, the British Navy has and will always be better :)

Although it is 18+ over here they've not been very picky about it in times of war. My grandfather was in the service and married long before his 18th birthday.

I considered signing up at one point but decided it was better if I didn't. I just can't see myself fighting wars I don't personally agree with. If a draft comes a long I'll probably end up in prison for refusing to go (because I'm not about to leave my home so leaving the country is not an option ;)).

We'll just have to disagree about your Navy begin the best. :p

Wow - I just watched the Royal Marines on a Navy DVD, and I really do think it is great!!

Boofo, if you were in there - what made you leave ?

I was in the U.S. Army in Vietnam. I was pretty much of a mess when I got back so staying in wasn't a choice for me. And the 'wonderful welcome' we got on our return didn't help matters much either. I got burned out on the military pretty fast after that. But I was like you when I first went in. All gung ho and ready to serve my country. That is why I said give it a year and talk to me about it then.

And Brad, agreeing or not with a war doesn't diminish your responsibility. Do you really believe I thought Nam was legitimate? ;)

But the army is different from the Royal Marines - also from what I've seen, I think I'm going enjoy it! :)

Military is military. You will learn that soon enough. And the part of the Army I was in was worse than anything I hope you ever see or have to go through. ;)

I agree Boofo, the Vietnam was a bad war to be in. Must of been hard in that Jungle! You have one shot @ life; and I really want to make the most of it.

No it is not... I am retired US ARMY and I joined when I was 17. Since I was under 18, I simply had to have one of my parents sign the enlistment papers when I was sworn in.

Oh, sorry -- I didn't know that. I've got to get my parents sign too so I can join the Royal Marines. Can't wait for training. How long were you in the army bobster, and did you enjoy it? Also, what did you do when you came out? (Job wise)

Bobster, who were you with? I was attached to the 82nd Airborne out of Bragg.

Hell no.

But again I'm not going to throw away my own life to fight a useless war for some foolish old men. I know you know exactly what I'm getting at. ;)

If I was around back then I doubt I would have fought in 'Nam, I can't say for sure because I didn't live in that time. However I know for a fact that I wouldn't have taken part in that "home coming" you guys got upon your return. I have always had all the respect in the world for our fighting men and women.

For example on my last trip through the nations airports I met many people on their way to Iraq in full uniform (they were not going directly there of course, but most of them would eventually end up there). I made a point to have a conversation with these guys or at least let them know that I appreciated all the things they do for my country.

You know what? Even though I was in a room full of Americans I found I was the only one around that was even paying them any attention. I didn't see one other non-military person talk to them the entire time... Are people just that scared of strangers or were they avoiding talking to anyone in uniform? I've no idea...but I did find it to be disrespectful..maybe I was just raised different?

You are right I do have a responsibility to my country. However I also have a responsibility to my family, and they come first. I also fight better with my mind than I do with my fists (or gun for that matter). I'm more concerned with fixing things here at home, and I honestly believe if we can do that we can avoid useless wars in the future. I hope to see a government in the states run by the common man before I leave this Earth...I doubt I will but I can at least work at it while I'm here. ;)

I'm just one young man that refuses to die for a few foolish old men is all. They want me dead as a matter of fact...they fear that one day me and many like me will take their power away from them. :) Hopefully you know what I'm getting at...