Difficulties hiring a vb coder...
 

This is a General vBulletin Discussions forum, so I think it is the most suitable place for this topic.

Is it only me, or someone else experienced/experiences difficulties hiring a vb coder?

Multiple times tried to post various mod requests in the "Paid Services" area. And to no success.

I would greatly appreciate if experienced people point me in the right direction.

Thank you.

Moved to Site Feedback as this is more a vB.org topic, then a general vBulletin topic.

... i require minimum 50$/h of charges... are you able to handle this on a job that can take 10 to 50 hours of work ?!... this is the reason why all the excellent coders are not available... "good money" or "cheap budgets" are avoided...

He's right about that. On top of that, some of you guys don't provide contact method.
If you guys are hiring, it's best to be alert on your PM box and update the thread if you already begin.

I hate PM'ing and all of a sudden I get a Pm saying the job has been taken care.

Thats what happens Most They Should reply back Atleast for Pm's like i send around 20 pms and get back one And they dont even update thread if its already completed.

^Indeed.

Maybe the 'Request Paid' should have an option for the author to check mark stating that the request is in progress. Once it's completed, they edit the thread saying it's completed.

I IMO.

$50?!?!
I know excellent coders that have worked for me at $15/h...
I go to Guru.com and many have talent :)

$15? Well, you get what you pay for. You may have had good luck so far with your transactions, but I think that is probably a train-wreck waiting to happen. If you want quality work, quality communication and some likelihood of getting support on code in the future, I don't see how you can get that at bottom of the barrel prices.

$50/hour for contract labor is actually quite reasonable. I'm sure there are some full time dedicated freelancers here, but personally, I do extra fleelance in my off time. My 9-5 is a professional database development position at a major telecommunications company. I can tell you that my comparable per-hour salary is significantly higher than $15/hour. There would be no incentive for me to do freelance at such a paltry rate, and I suspect many other of the professional coders here would be in the same lot with me.

Professional contract development can actually run well into the $125/hour or more range. Easy.

Not all people (whether they are coders/designers) will take on a job if they're already working for other clients (which 10/10) will be the case. The last thing you want is somebody that has tons of work piled up and accepts your job offer and only to find that he/she didn't have the time to fulfill your request leading to you (generalizing when I say you) a few weeks later posting in the community area raving about the half assed job you received.

Just something to think about when you don't receive the response you were looking for. :up:

Put it this way, a good coder will always think about the current client. A bad one will take multiple jobs to make more money.

Hourly jobs are only good for certain things. Afterall, you're not going want to pay hourly for something that will take weeks, even months to complete. Customers go with the cheapest, that's where they slip up - while there are coders who have a cheap hourly rate, most are just money grabbing ******!

That's why here in America we outsource our work LOL

Ironically, most of the freelance work I have done has been for clients in other countries (European mostly), and this was even before the dollar started loosing value. Very few have even batted an eye at my rates.

and yea well they want quality works from them whom they will pay which takes around atleast 5-6hrs sometimes $15 isnt a rate to think of nowadays atleast respecting the time given by other developers...

And there is why America is in the shape it's in with it's economy, but that's another topic. But honestly, as mentioned above, the post made in the paid request forum here of someone wanting a logo design for $5.00, style coded for "No more than $10.00"... really, what are people thinking. I completely understand that people have budgets, and although I am one of those who charge a substantial hourly rate, I always try to work within people's budgets and often what they pay isn't the total amount of time I've put in. I also understand that there are younger members that just don't have a lot of money to put into their forums, but those members have to understand that those of us that work for a living and between work, and volunteering here and there on vbulletin.org, there's not a lot of time left in the day to do those types of jobs simply to help out.

You do get what you pay for, and just because you think you got a good deal somewhere for that $10.00 coding job, try finding that person in a month when you need changes or find out that it doesn't work in all browsers, etc, etc...

I think that the paid request forum here is great, and there are many qualified individuals that can do a outstanding job. Perhaps vbulletin.org needs to set minimum prices for jobs to be posted (like sitepoint had with contest) so that the quality of professionals in that forum providing these services get paid a fair wage for the job, and the people seeking the work get quality work. Granted, vb.org is not associated with any of those transactions and is only providing the forum for those in need and those able to provide the service.

To think that in America are the best coders is flat wrong, we may have more coders per capita, so by basic economic logic, ppl will look for price... and you may be surprised that some people have a different and fresh approach to the same problem ;)
I will log off from this thread :p

That comment had nothing to do with implying America had the best coders. It was simply to point out that we outsource far to much work ;)

I agree, except on the hourly rate. I won't work with someone hourly. If you cannot estimate the project properly that states you most likely don't know how to do what needs to be done and need to charge an hourly rate because the coder is unsure of how long something will take. It can greatly be taken out of hand to, if the coder really doesn't know and could end up costing you way more than you bargained for.

I've used Guru, had a great experience, DID NOT take the lowest bid, didn't take the highest. Took the one in the middle, not only because of mid price but because of referrals. The top price had like 4 referrals, while the mid price guy had hundreds. So it was a no brainer we felt.

Even designers typically make $25/hour in companies, so I find it hard to imagine 50/hour. What makes you worth that much would be my question. What have you done that justifies the high cost. Not only that but do you know ALL types of coding, like Flash Actionscript 3, Java, HTML, PHP, etc. Because if you only know one or two types and not some of the harder code systems, you're not worth $50/hour. Unless of course you work really fast. lol

But we are discussing the hourly rates in DOLLARS, and I've worked with pakistanies, ukranians and argentinians and my dollars pay good quality :) [i.e. a Flash animation here=$350, same outside=$50 and I can't complaint of the quality, even I received the source code for tune ups ;)]

p.s. my Nike Shox say 'Made in Malasya' lol

I think would help if there was a better feedback system .
The problem I have in mention budget first is I don't want to attract wrong people .
I know a job well done by a professional is not cheap but sometimes people have emergency and no way to check coder real feedback maybe a few post here and there but thats all .
a better feedback system will help with a followup function .
so far coder I deal with already all did a great job in low and high budget .but 2 of them was hard to find to fix bugs after upgrade vbulletin.thats why a followup feedback I think is important and people will learn that cheap is not really cheap if you have to pay over and over for same project because coder don't respond onces they have your money .whats funny is I was willing to pay to get them to fix new bugs since they create codes they understand better how it works if I get someone new that person have to take time to go over all codes .

just my opinion hope was clear since not so good with English .

As a designer that's a fairly shocking response to me... I've always worked with people who accept a ballpark on a project but one has to understand that more features will mean more work. It's very rare for someone working outside of a large project to define things well enough that there aren't some changes and with changes comes more work. Fixed pricing is good if you don't trust the coder's skills but unless the developer grossly underestimates, it tends to cost you far more in the long run (I estimate 50 hours, it takes 25 because things "click", I win, you lose).

I guess I should stop hiring firms where designers run for for $125-$150 an hour and coders $150 - $200. ;)

Anyways, in response to some of the earlier posts... There's definitely always room for more credentials and feedback to verify developers & designers but on the same argument, people hiring have to be honest about budgets and expectations. vBulletin costs under $200 because it's sold to thousands and thousands of people. A custom addon to add a red alert when someone clicks on the secret code word of the day for your forum isn't going to any other site and chances are, you're going to ask for exclusivity even if it would. Sometimes people get lucky and get cheap talent -- I've certainly had my share of bargain work, especially in the design world. However, when you're fighting against other paid projects at good rates, offering something below market is either going to get you a novice or ignored, with those rare exceptions.

I’ve also seen a lot of people hiring who post that they were “shocked” when asked for a deposit. Time has a value and frankly small projects often go south due to conflicts, changes and life.

To get the most out of the project both sides need to be on the same page – this means the person hiring is certain of credentials and the person getting hired is being compensated reasonably with some assurance they’ll get paid. The smaller the project, the harder this is – jumping through hoops for a 2 hour project just doesn’t pan out.

Ted,

lol, I would never pay that much in my entire life. I'd rather take college courses to learn to do the same thing myself than pay that much. Oh...you probably could actually at that insanely ridiculous rate.

I am a Sales Executive for a Corporation, I know big whoop is the reaction of many to that comment. But I know how the game works, because I see it on every job we contract. Ok, job costs $15,000.00 USD, Builder Payout is $3000.00 which equates to like 9 days building time, "builder you have 9 days to do the job, if you take longer you make less money, if you get it done earlier you make more." Of course our high standards of excellence in construction have to be applied to ensure customer satisfaction. But I understand what you're saying.

Still, an hourly rate should only be applied IF the coder that has taken the job has shown progress. If the coder knows nothing of what they are doing, it isn't the buyer's job to pay for them to "trial & error" to figure out the code. Either know what your doing, or don't act like it and take a job you cannot do. That makes it fair to the buyer, which many coders I don't think want to accept. You want to be paid no matter what, and at the same time, if the buyer ends up with nothing....NOT due to malice, but due to "coder unable to complete'' they've wasted there money...yet the coder is still paid.

That's why I think people should be thorough about what they want, and a coder should either have a good working concept of how to complete the project, or don't estimate on it. Don't waste buyers time.

Thank you,

LoA

_ P.S. I don't do design work for example, not because I can't or am not skilled, it's because I don't want to as my level of standard for my own graphics is extremely high. But I wouldn't charge ridiculous prices unless I could produce extremely high quality graphics within mere hours or minutes of accepting a job.

Like I said, speed and a high price can work at the same time. Slow and high hourly rate = useless and painful to the consumer.

I have my Coder :) Isnt Cheap $50-$75 Per Hour but he does good Work

You and I probably work in a very similar world so no, I don't say big whoop, I say where's my next nice lunch meeting. :D

I think we agree for the most part... coders should deliver on time, work efficiently and come close to their estimates. Hourly rates allow for more accurate billing but if nothing is allowed to be changed (or in the case of a small project of just a few hours), a fixed estimate makes perfect sense too. If the coder wants a higher rate, well, that's up to the client to decide and neither neither here nor there.

Paying people to learn isn't ok... paying them for more quality, thoroughness and a better system is however perfectly acceptable (there's more to code than speed... sometimes you can be fast and write well, sometimes it takes more time to minimize impact and be something that can be built upon in the future).

No coder should be paid if they don't deliver unless the client did something (i.e. stopped making scheduled payments) to stop them. A contract is an equal exchange... I pay my coder, they deliver. Paying parts upfront is just a means of insuring I'm not a complete flake... not to give them money to do half a project, they don't finish, I will come after them.

My point was simply that people hiring out should no more expect to get great work for pennies than coders should expect to get open ended projects that don't have deadlines and can be overcharged.

The best way to insure things work out is to fully outline needs. In a smaller project (under a few thousand) this generally means mocking up the changes, defining any functionality not showable in mockups and writing down expectations to be reviewed. For anything mid or large sized, a more formal design process can be applied but in either case, requirements are the key to success. If they're not there, they can't be met and if they are there, they must be met. Anything else and one side has failed to do its job.

I should add... most of the engagements I took back in my consulting days were based on some sort of base with a performance incentive/ earnings split for results. Now I'll grant that I'm a marketing professional who codes here and there but for me and my clients it worked out much better than paying me by the hour and only getting my expertise until the hour ended. Under this scenario it was in my interest to meet and exceed requirements plus add more input in features, functionality and design to insure success.

End of the day you get what you pay for. I'd choose someone who's been working with vB for years and charges $50/hr than someone who's only been doing it a year and charges $15. Hell I wouldn't even get out of bed for $15 an hour ;)

There are many countries where $15 an hour is a very good pay and $200 is a months pay.
And I am afraid that with the way the USD is going, the US will be a good place to find cheap rate and thus outsource to in the near future.

It's hard to get a hold of people that are not wraped up in multi projects.

You also have many browsing habbits of people.
EX: I personly have went into the "Paid Services" forum 2 times since I have been on the site. (on a search)

I will gladly pay those 'few thousands' to someone to code me a Photoshop, a Windows Vista, or a Norton Suite, but I'm realistic a group of 5 or 20 can't do so, thus I will keep going to the store to buy those solutions for just hundreds and I will keep recommending to my clients & friends to chose same method. [don't tell me MySpace have quality, and still they have millions]

But returning to reality, we humans live generally in a tight budget and we business men need to learn how to do much from a little, and I don't recommend to any startup to invest a few thousands :rolleyes:

I think you all are crazy for paying that kind of money for any coder to code something. I can think of a lot more places I can use that money that gambling on human instincts, which usually are greedy and self-serving. You are right that you get what you pay for, but that can work with the higher priced coders as well as the cheaper ones. I don't need any hack bad enough to pay the kind of money you all are talking.

Have you ever worked on or run a site for profit and/or as a business?

I've offered Him the CEO chair and full control and he said: 'I just do it for Love's sake' :eek:

Nope, never have and never will. When I start doing it for money, then the fun is gone.

Told you, He's a 'Starving Artist' LOL

We charge $65 per hour. $50 is cheap, considering the value of the dollar worldwide (we are from Europe), and the ongoing prices for professional teams. We do offer flat rates. And just to prove that our prices are not "wrong", we never lacked clients. We have always done work outside the vBulletin community; we then started taking some jobs on vBulletin.org (my colleague name in the forums is CarlitoBrigante), for vBulletin, on July 2007. After a couple of months, we had collected so many loyal clients and many more came to us from word of mouth, that we have not had any need of looking for more job on the website.

Nowadays, even $65 per hour is not enough to pay the bills anymore, so we are moving to a different type of development soon. Let me also add that the hourly rate concept vary strongly from developer to developer. For example, I do not charge my clients for time spent researching the subject of their website (with advanced projects this is always needed, like when you are building a DB of collectible Sports cards or dealing with the Forex market), and I do not charge time spent on errors or on coding parts we had coded and that did not make it into the final code.

To be honest, you CAN find good coders at lower prices, but these are often young coders (that often do not work in an office environment or in a team), people programming for fun (but these will often work for free), or teams from countries of the world were average cost of work per hour is lower, like India.

Finally, many clients we worked with had thought their add-ons were developed by "good" coders, just because they got their product in a few days. When they hired us to check the forums, we found out that their "good" coders had not used even the most basic guidelines behind the development of a secure script. This occurred with one of the most popular chat scripts on the market that can be integrated on vBulletin (and our name is still listed in their news page) which had dozens of injection issues, but it also occurred with custom work. A client had all the credit cards of his users stored in a flat file DB, UNENCRYPTED. He had paid $600 for the script. This happened many months ago, not at the beginning of the PHP era of web development.

As impressive as this may sound, in my experience 3 every 5 scripts in vBulletin communities we have worked for during the past months included security holes that were only mitigated by the fact that some of the scripts were exclusive to the website, so the code was not available to malicious users. But we all know that injecting a buggy or unsecure PHP script is as easy as determining which variables it is accepting from the outside.

So, to be brief: ongoing average price for a professional programmer in Western industrialized countries is $60 or more. But prices of a market, like the one of vBulletin.org, is made by contractors and clients. So, how many professional teams or coders (the real ones, not those who call themselves programmers) would work in an environment were they are getting paid less than what they are being paid in other places?

My advices for clients:

1) Specify the budget range for your projects in the TITLE of the thread. Many think this is bad because coders will end up taking all your money, but many programmers will know you are serious when they see this. You will receive much more answers to your job request, EVEN if you are paying a relatively low price.
2) Ask the coder to show you websites he has worked for, with real scripts developed by them still being actively used by his/her users.
3) If your project is a high cost one, ask past clients about their experience with a coder.
4) NEVER NEVER NEVER go the cheap way if you are processing payments or collecting credit card information. This is an act of disrespect for your users, and it's asking for a lot of troubles, and possibly for the end of your online activity if all goes wrong.

Huh, Americans best coders? I don't think so. vBulletin is coded by British people :p

That's because the dollar is so weak against the Euro and pound that it seems a lot to you. Granted, $50 is about ?25 an hour in the UK which is a good wage, but it's not astronomical out here. You'd be hard pressed to find a decent and experienced contractor in the UK who would work for less than that.

Considering the price of a small flat in big cities in UK, I completely understand that.

So YOU say... :p

I think you'll find that not all the vb coders are British ;)

Hmmm, Scott must be Scottish then :)

What I don't get is, vbulletin are a British based, yet they use US phrases, and even use $ as the default currency :confused:.

It's because most of their market is in the US.