Scammers break vB coders reputation...
 

In the last weeks, may i say months, i was faced with 17 clients on this site that were requesting paid services on the site.. these guys supposely accepted some other coders offers before mine because i always charge a higher rate and i do not ask to be paid before the code is provided in case i can't provide it... this is my security for the clients themselves... if i can't do it, i'm not paid.

these clients, in most case were back at me after 2 or 3 weeks asking me if i was able to answer their request because the first offer scammed them or abandonned them without any news... i was not available anymore due to a long term contract, but hey, they came back with feedback at least.

the problem with that is that again, some scammers are acting on this site, and nobody is protected, and usually, as it's a long period of time between the task taken and the scam appear, the guy is safe... and a lot of clients instead of updating their situations are just quitting the place and go search for coders in other places like sitepoint.com ...

this place is going down in the case of Paid Requests... mainly because of 2 or 3 scammers that always show their nose just when they are attacked... they are silent for months for their clients, but when someone talk about them, they show up, telling the more incredible stories...

so i would suggest something:

instead of banning these scammers, CLOSE the forum #30 ... Paid Services

let someone open a real professional site for services and more... or better, give the approval to become the vbulletin.net .... the "net" would mean "commercial on the net" for sure!

... scammers are always here, making profit on our back... because most of the time, people will cease asking here because they are ignored, abandonned or scammed... how many were giving feedback to tell they were happy of the services... most of them never come back...

Now I see my post has been removed, care to share why? I was expressing my feelings, I haven't insulted anyone. I'm sorry, I just hate to see people getting scammed, it's not fair!

Regards Jason :)

Nexialys, you are a programmer and I'm sure you may have been on the opposite end of the stick (a client scamming a coder).

This is not a one sided debate here and it's a complex issue to handle (specifically in regards to individual complaints).

If you think that the staff here hasn't been acting on complaints, then you are sadly mistaken. Have you ever thought that maybe we do not publicize everyone who is banned here?

Everyone needs to understand that we are addressing this issue as best as we can and are still discussing what the best policy should be in regards to service requests.

At the end of the day, however, it's going to have the be the client who must be educated in making an informed decision on who to hire regardless of where the transaction is being made.

I hate to see people getting scammed too, but I also hate to see people making arguments when they don't know the full side of the story. Your reason is in the deleted post. :)

Closing it would be sad, because there are legit coders out there -- who really do want to help!

Regards Jason :)

Hum, Danny, i'm not talking about the administration not making a thing... i know you are acting on these scammers when you can... not always easy to ban someone just because of one member complaining about bad service...

this is actually why i think this service have to be dropped... it was first intended to answer some people requesting professional jobs, but the more we see, the more we count scammers in our ranks, and even if you act on it, it is not your main focus,... you can't play the police all the time...

my solution is not to put the fault on your shoulders but instead to clear your shoulders of all these insinuations and accusations of non-action... if some other professional site is handling this as their main goal, i suppose there would be a more secure way to make deals for service paid... like escrow or others... but you can't filter all these paid requests via escrow, as it would break a lot of things here...

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i know a lot of vb.org coders who go at sitepoint.com to answer these paid requests... when you can help somewhere on the net, it is not complicated to open a new browser window and go help on another place...

my suggestion would be to have that kind of service tutored by the vbulletin community, instead of using sitepoint.com ...

Have you considered having a forum for Good and Bad Clients and Coders? I have a similar forum on my site and it allows users to start a thread about either a good or bad trade, provide some background and then others can see what happened and decide if they want to deal with this trader. It's been a great resource for the users on our site.

Its just the pain in the arse to go to another site and scroll through all the vBulletin requests. Atleast here they are all in one place :D

Lol, yes sorry Nexialys - most of my post wasn't intended fully for you.

Your suggestion is certainly an option....

it is a bigger pain to read someone say "vb coders are all scammers and shit" ... don't you think ?!

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i did read between the lines Danny, i'm not stubborn.. lol... i'm ok with all of what you say usually!

and i know, this is an option that was debated not long ago when the last crisis in the commercial forum discussion occured... some guys are still waiting for an answer.. :)

Well from your post, it sounds like you got the client in the end regardless?

So, I really don't see how an individual coder's reputation is being negatively affected. If anything, coders may have to prove more that they are serious and professional (which is hardly a bad thing, no?).

It's the client suffering in the end when they experience this.

i usually get clients due to my clean reputation on all the products i developped, not because they were scammed by someone else... and usually, i'm not their last hope... i usually refuse to serve someone who got scammed here because they usually ask to lower the charges because their money is gone... and as i'm not a freelancer, i'm not accepting all the jobs just because i need to work.

the thing is not on my side or on the side of the coders who are ok, the problem is that one scammer could bring 10 clients to go elsewhere, so we see less persons posting here, but far more, we are all tagged as scammer in the near future, because the guys how answer requests at first are the ones to be chosen... 90% scammers... because they grab some clients, scam them, take a vacation, come back 3 months later and start again...

some guys here already asked if it was possible to start a commercial site where they would have the possibility to advertise their company... the other side is also requested.. a place where clients can rate the coders... a place where we can comment and be heard if positive or negative comments are given... here, people do not read any follow up of paid requests because they are not rating the coders... we do not see any tag beside coders name to indicate that they have 10 or 1000 satisfied clients...

a lot of features would be necessary to have a good paid-request forum, and you can't make it all... you do not need to explode your brain for that...

I feel ya nexialys, I'm in the same boat as you.
I also charge more then most ppl, yet I don't ask for a payment until the work is done for the same reason you have.

I haven't been around the paid request section here in some time, I didn't know it was getting bad again.

Just remember, to the clients, if it's to good to be true, it prolly is!

the paid section is out of control here, do a good job and people don't bother leaving any positive or even neutral feedback, but if you screw them over they are posting 8 times in 2 days with new information about it pretty much non-stop.

Then my recent favorite was the one who scammed someone, then had previous people post how good he was almost 6 months to a year later, and then today its another "he scammed me post" quality entertainment.

I dont think the forum should be done away with as people need a place to find coders related to vBulletin and this is the best place for that. However without a better feedback system then yea its pretty useless.

I have to agree with Nexia. This was a sore point a long time ago and doesn't seem to have gotten better. I never did think the paid request area was a good idea and mostly because of what Nexia wrote about. Too hard to police and make everyone happy. And also a playground for unscrupulous opportunists.

Please keep specific cases out of this discussion.

I'm going to say this once: the staff are the only members who can completely verify a member's status on this forum. Please don't make accusations unless you know all the details - and in some cases you won't ever have all the details.

Now please keep the topic on the Paid Requests Forum.

I have an idea on how to improve the system. However, it's up to the vBulletin.org to add it or not.

The way it'll work is to have a new .php page. Who knows, maybe vbcoder.php or vbdesigner.php

How will the system work?

When a user is looking for a coder and/or designer, he'll have to submit a ticket. Those who applied will have the privilege to reply to his/her thread. However, those who didn't apply to be part of the vb coder or vb designer team wont' be able to read their thread. All they can do is create and view their own thread and hope to get someone work on their project.

Of course, when it comes to those who agree to do the work and the client isn't happy because he/she is now ignoring will be remove from the list and he/she will never able to help those who are willing to pay.

This is just an idea. ^^

I dont think that will work. How and who will figure out who is on this "team".

What is to be done, if someone completes the work, and no matter what the customer isn't satisified or they just want to leave a negative "feedback" then that coder can't do anything about it. After one comment are they removed from the "team", or are the left there?

Still requires to much moderation. A simple feedback system like itrader where + or - feedback is left, and a short comment. Then the coder will have a chance to reply to the feedback. But no matter what if there is more - comments then + comments no one will use that coder and they'll be little moderation needed of such a system

How will they find out? As I stated again, only those who applied will be able to post. Those who aren't part of the team won't be able too. If the customer isn't satisfy, they won't be remove from the team since he/she did the work. If he/she didn't work at it, he/she will be removed.

the only way the clients will ever rate or rep the coders (and the opposite too, the coder can rate and rep the client)... is when we force people to pass thru an official channel like Escrow... "once you rate this coder's work, you will receive the official code"... "once you rate this client, you will be paid"...

this can't be done here!

I also agree that Jelsoft shall act on thismatter and prepare a new site just for paid requests. The new site may also include a paid directory for paid addon scripts which has been requested for a long time. This way Jelsoft will have the ability to promote their product better.

With the current structure it is impossible for users to track the coders or designers reputation at all. For example if i didn't read the following thread how the hack i can know about *** Link removed, no need for individual examples *** that guys reputation. I know that is not the first case for him either. I know that because i read paid requests section from time to time but most users donot. Thats why there must be some improvements within the current structure.

But if Jelsoft does decide to open such a site, there will be the same amount of "scammers" anyway. And more liability will be put on Jelsoft.

but who ask that Jelsoft open that site?!... why not let this in the arms of some other persons ?... sponsorship or simply an approval would do it...

you say it all day long, vb.org is not from Jelsoft directly, but have the approval to be the official hackers site... we all know that this is false and it is now part of the ownership, but hey, it is easy to "not be"...

a commercial site with more than just reviews and rating is needed, rating is part of the protection.. most of the time, the people get scammed by someone who ask to be paid upfront... even just 20% is a loss when the job is not delivered... if the system is managed by Escrow or something else, there is no loss... do you have the habbit to loose 500$ in the street for no reason if your upfront is 20% of your project of 2500$ ?!... usually you have to pay even a little bit upfront for all the jobs you will ask for...

Lizard King did :rolleyes:

This guy is strange... forgive him, he think he is a King.... rofl

on my side, i actually think that IB would have a good opportunity here, not Jelsoft... if the owners start a site of that kind, they would control a major part of the business instead of loosing it due to bad management... but hey, i'm just a web consultant.

There's already a site like you are describing Nex, getafreelancer.com. Works well and you can find good vb coders there.

yeah, i know about all these freelancers websites... the problem is that it is not representative of our community either... and these are not refered by Jelsoft... when you want a coder to do a task on your vB, here and at the .com would be able to say "go to vb-lancers.com" or something... you understand the point...? for now they go at vb.org, and get scammed most of the time if not simply abandonned... most of the requests in the paid services are not even answered...

on freelancers sites, i can say that most requests are filled... because every coder who go there is reading the requests.. that's the reason why they are there... on vb.org, their main reason is the mods section.

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hum, btw... do you know that most of the great coders who have quit in the last years are now independant and continue to code vBulletin hacks in private, commercially... if these guys have a place where to meet as commercial coders, they would be a benefit for the community -- we would know about their products...

instead, there is no actual commercial deal with Jelsoft for no reason, there is no place where to have a showroom or a directory, and that gives no point in them.. they would come back, with a real solution

I agree with your position on this Nex, but I think you know Jelsoft will never officially support or recommend such a site or section on one of their sites. It never has made much sense to me because the cottage industry (coders and designers) that have enjoyed success due to vbulletin also provide value back to vbulletin making their product more marketable. I never check the paid request forum here anymore and haven't in a long time. I agree, it would probably be a good idea if it were to go away.

sure i was scammed on some small occasions, where clients refused to pay after i work for 10 or 20 hours... my result: i released the codes for free so they lost their exclusivity...

btw, i got scammed on a bigger project, everybody knows about it... i was scammed by my own team on PostNuke... guys with not much references, no real experience with big projects, and me with too much confidence on guys with big mouth... i've quit the project i started because it was a kindergarden.

also, this is why the Paid Requests are not good... when a client is scamming a coder, nobody knows... because the coder can't rate a client, and a coder can't comment in the client's request. i've tried already, trying to give a comment about a client who tried to scam me for 2000$... never my comment was posted in the request thread, because it was my opinion in stakes, not his... (and no i did not put the thread url because i know it will be deleted!)

/me sighs.

Well if we can't bring up specifics, it's very hard to make a point. Since my post was deleted, I'll just say that I agree with Nexi and that I don't think the current system is working in the best interest of the memberbase here.

don't sigh too much Chris, we can't point scammers because we are not the victims... and i think lasto made his point already, so adding more on his side would be useless, as this thread is not about scammers but about a better system somewhere else.

i could buy a vB license and start a real freelancers site, but it was done before without any result because Jelsoft was not supporting it... but i'd be ready to start one if i'd be supported.. :)

nexialys, I'd also be happy to start a website, for requesting paid services ect. But, would Jelsoft risk such a thing?

Regards Jason :)

If the request section is to stay then i suggest that all Requests for paid service are made on the board and coders are allowed to reply instead of using the pm system.This keeps a record and the coder and client can discuss what they want doing and when that will be implemented and the cost.Now if something goes wrong and its not in the post then this board cant act on it,so it will encourage people to keep everything in the actual thread so it can be used at a later date should anything go wrong.

Im sure someone can make a hack - like this

say 5 people reply to your thread - you click the one you want and the rest are auto blocked from the thread and just you and the coder can discuss away.It wont stop things going wrong but it will leave a record of what was wanted etc and give both users some backup.

We all can start a website on this matter however that is not a solution because there is no way Jelsoft will target customers who look for custom code to that site. Thats why i suggested Jelsoft to start a new site. They can start a new site and hire a team to manage the site. That way they will have more liability maybe but they will have more income also as a paid directory will bring good income and also they can get percentage of each sale going through site. They can also act similar like getfreelancer.com and allow members to purchase subscriptions etc...

Yes, I agree Lizard King. Who wants to take this up with Jelsoft? However, we need a good, reliable team -- who are capable of managing the site.

Out of interest, who would be interested in managing a site for this particular purpose?

Regards Jason :)

Please keep other personal ventures and Jelsoft proposals outside this thread - this is about paid requests on this forum.

yeah, Jase2, forget about any offer here, it is a discussion, not the plan for the destruction of the net... you can easily do that on your own...

Danny sorry but why shall we leave Jelsoft outside of this site ? As we all know this site belongs to Jelsoft so they shall be involved in fixing the current situation or we shall at least can share our opinion.

I have to agree. Jelsoft own this. If you wish to discuss the current state of affairs further, email: Ashley...I'm sure he will do something.

Regards Jason :)

I'm not saying we shall leave Jelsoft out of this. If people are interested in starting their own venture and proposing it to Jelsoft...well, that doesn't belong here.

If you are going to leave your feedback here then it should be for this site, no?

The staff is interested in your feedback on how we can improve this community - if anyone feels like creating a new community, I can't stop them but it has no business here.