Dumped in an inconvenient situation
 

Hi guys,
I doubt I will get much help from this, but I feel I need to say it.
I was on holiday when vb.org sent through emails about hacks being moved to the graveyard. When I got back I had something like 1000 emails waiting for me and thinking they were just the usual update subscriptions, I mass deleted a whole bunch from vB.org. Silly, I know, but when you have 2 weeks worth of work to catch up on and an unwell wife, well these things happen.
So it wasn't until weeks later that I discovered that some of the hacks I can't live without have been 'retired'.

Danial Mented's RBL checker cut down our spam threads by over 90%. They went from being a daily pain in the ass to hardly a problem at all. This was an incredibly useful hack. Why has it gone and why isn't there a replacement? No explanation in the thread itself.

EWT Users Registered Today. nice to have hack. Actually pretty important from a marketing point of view. It helps reinforce the impression of activity on the forum and helps persuade advertisers to invest in you. I understand the author requested his hacks be removed. Fine, but what about us people who want to continue using the hack? No explanation in the thread itself.

Moderation Auto-PM was another incredibly useful hack. We have hundreds of moderating actions taken every day and it saves hours of time sending members PMs telling them their posts have been edited/deleted etc. Even though this mod is in the graveyard, I'm still using it. Can't live without it to be honest. No explanation in the thread as to why it's no longer available.

Users in thread is a hack which my members found useful and complained at its removal.

Ok, so what's my point here?
First of all I think that all threads being moved to the graveyard should have a reply at the end explaining why they are there. If coders have gone to the (often considerable) effort of publishing a hack, and (sometimes hundreds of) members have gone to the trouble of evaluating and installing them, then surely it is simple good manners to provide an explanation as to why they are suddenly 'to be avoided like the plague'.

Also not being a good enough coder (and frankly not having enough time) to recreate these hacks myself, when a hack is killed off, don't you think the vB team should do it's utmost to help the community get a replacement hack? Maybe encourage someone else to recode it?
Sorry but the excuse that the hack is copyright is irrelevant when compared to the needs of the community using it. If the original author won't/can't rewrite the hack to comply with the security requirements, then the vB.org team should ask/persuade the original authors to give permission that the hack be adopted by someone else.
Or maybe the vB.org site should state some terms and conditions whereby if an author decides not to update a hack any more, it is automatically handed over to the community.

Why not ask in the hack suggestions forum? Frankly my experience of the response one gets to suggestions in that forum is pretty poor.

I just think the vB.org team could do a little more to help people who are left stranded when hacks are removed. It's the need for these hacks which is the root of this forum's popularity. I think playing down or ignoring that need is a mistake.

Moan over.

Check Proxy RBL on New User Registration contains SQL Vulnerabilities. eXtremeTim and Alan @ CIT both requested that their modifications be removed.

get used to that around here. Also try not to tick off the "powers that be" by saying only good things about this site (even though it may not be the case). They love to remove hacks and censor everything that isn't in their best interest.

Show me one instance of this happening...

I know as well as any that running a forum (after 7 years of doing it for a living) requires a mammoth amount of political consideration and diplomacy, and you certainly can't please all the people all the time.
It is how well you look after your members that differentiates between 'a forum' and 'the one people have real loyalty to'.
It's easy for the admin and mods here to say 'well this is a platform for people to share hacks/mods for vbulletin and we don't get involved beyond that'.
However, I think the vB.org team have more of a responsibility to maintain a consistency of service from mod developers to mod users.
E.g. would the vb.org team allow a member to provide lots of buggy, poorly supported hacks without getting involved?
So it's easy to wash your hands of the situation when a developer withdraws his mods.
However, I believe that to be truly great, the vb.org team should, in such circumstances, endeavor to replace those needed hacks.
Otherwise, members like me are left up the creep without a paddle.

There is no requirement for any author to support released modifications. It is also an authors responsibility to fix bugs (or apply fixes supplied by members). Staff are not here to judge the quality of mods, or fix errors in them, or even check them - this would be totally impractical.

Normally we will only remove a mod by request of the author. The main excepion is when exploits are reported (and confirmed) or in very rare cases, when the mod is clearly nonsense - or may even damage a forum. Such removals are at our discretion.


How would you suggest vb.org replaces removed mods ?

i don't understand why you continue visiting this site if ALL is bad here....

i personally think that yes, sometimes there is a lack of explanations on why the hacks are backyarded, but when authors are not able to give their own explanations, that's a proof there was no real support... at least they can say something like "i quit"... that would help.

In your first paragraph you say you are not here to judge mods, yet in your second paragraph you say you will remove a mod if is nonsense or may damage a forum. How do you arrive at that decision without judging them?
Indeed, how would you have been able to decide what mods have security issues?
But I get what you mean - you have limited resources.
My suggestion is that you get more resources (i.e. more mods) and try to provide a little more in the way of support.
I'll give you an example. On our classified forums, if there is a trading dispute, the moderators will mediate and attempt to bring the situation to a mutually acceptable outcome. It's a little more that just moderating.

In answer to your question, I suggested you endeavor to replace mods. You could do this by either encouraging other coders to rewrite them, or at the very least, don't prevent enthusiastic individuals from doing so on the basis of 'copyright'.

P.S. read my signature. '...with thanks to vBulletin.org'. Maybe there should be no thanks to vBulletin.org since anyone can host a forum. Only those forum owners who provide 'a little more' for its members deserve the praise. That's what I thought vB.org did for vBulletin owners. Provide a hub for people to share hacks and oversee/steer/tender to the community to ensure its members don't get dumped on.

Seems to me that no representative of vB.org has attempted to see my point of view. You're on the defensive and that's all there is to it.
Never mind.

I'll post some requests in the suggestions forum and see what happens.

I completely disagree with you on that one. You say copyright as if it's there to be breached. It's there for a reason, to protect peoples work. It's the authors responsibility to keep their work up to date, not yours, not mine, and not the moderators here.

And if the author doesn't give a toss? If they've cleared off, they probably don't give a damn.
At least ask the author if it's ok if someone adopts the hack and post an invite to the community to take up the reigns.

I disagree with the thinking that all mods should be supported by their authors. Coders already make free mods, requiring them to also support them for free is kind of asking too much. Also you gotta take into account that not everyone who contributes here are professional coders, more like forum hackers sharing their own forums modifications, and requiring a level of quality for mods to be posted here would kill this sharing idea. This is all just my opinion.

I agree there should be a modification setting "I allow anyone to modify and repost this modification" for coders.

Also, maybe adding a setting "code quality" where the author tries to provide his overall coding skill applied to the mod could be interesting.

An offtopic rant, but somewhat related, vb.org community is too demanding for free mods.

I think Spinball talks a lot of sense. And the whole COPYRIGHT issue where mods released here on this site remain the property of the Authors is causing no end of problems like Spinball has pointed out in well worded posts above.

I agree that maybe vB.org does need to review there site policy of hacks released here by members. And maybe change it so "un-supported" hacks can be taken over by members. And also do away with the ability for hack releaser's to be able to request all there mods be removed as well. I think more power needs to be given to vB.org to be a lot more flexible regarding members mods released here. To much power at the moment is in the Authors hands.

Won't happen all mods released here are property of the author, vBulletin.org CANNOT give permission for anyone to take over the mods.

JFYI, The next set of updates includes a review of the modification tick boxes. Two new ones are currently planned - one to show that translations are allowed to be released on other authorised sites, and one to allow other coders to take over and/or release modified versions. I stress that they are planned options atm, we still haven't finalised any details (therefore, there is no eta or guarantee on what will finally be included).

That's great news Paul, I hope they get implemented. It will improve the community I think.

What do you mean by "other authorised sites"?

We will probably define that as other sites using licence verification, currently this is just the German modifications site.

You could define it otherwise in your release post of course.

That's still no reason top breach the Copyright Act.
Anyone can ask the author for permission to continue to develop their modifications. We're not stopping you from doing that.

Let me make a few things clear:

Copyright is not something that we (vB.org) invented or put inplaceto annoy anyone. It is international law. The only difference between us and some other sites is maybe that we try to stay within legal boundaries.

Copyright applies to the physical coding, not to ideas. Anyone is free to write a new modification based of an existing idea, but they can not reuse (significant) coding from another author without permission.

There is no deciding or arguing on this, it is simple international law.

PS If a modification is withdrawn for reasons other then the request of the author (in which case is should be up to the author to motivate such a withdrawal to the users of his work) it is always done because staff looks into a modification after it was reported by members. We usually do not actively go check upon modifications trying to find a reason to withdraw it.

Well that's good news.

oh for the love of god. It's like talking to a brick wall.

As a former professional musician and current podcast producer, I am well aware of copyright law, thank you. My point is that I think the vB.org team may be using it as an excuse to be less helpful than they could be when it comes to resurrecting needed mods.

Not for current mods. But you could change your T+Cs to state that any mods submitted here, may be adopted and modified (with credit to the original author) if the original author is unable or unwilling to supply updates when they are needed.
E.g. if a mod is rendered inactive by a new version of vB, and the author is uncontactable, then the community can modify the mod.

It seems like common sense to me.

Using the law "as an excuse" costs us a lot more energy then simply ignoring such laws, so in my view you don't really have a point here. Also authors are always free to wave their copyright and let their code be reused by others. If an author can not upkeep his modification(s) anymore, he always has the option to allow another coder to take over. This has happened before and if the author wishes so, then we will always try to support such a request as good as we can.

On a personal note: You are barking at the wrong tree. Try to covince the coders to release their work as a community product free of copyright claims, targeting the vB.org staff is useless as we have no say over the coding written by someone.

No, you're missing my point completely. As the people responsible for running the site you are in a position to (as you have written above)
* encourage absent authors to wave their copyright and let their code be reused by others
* encourage appropriate coders to take over expired mods
* convince coders to release their work as a community product free of copyright claims
I think (hope) I'm targetting exactly the right people.
If you'll stop with the defensive posture for a moment and consider what I'm suggesting.

I don't see how explaining something is defensive. If you are not willing to get an answer, then don't ask.

Also from one of your own modifications (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=69392):
If you want to change the world, the best place to start is at your own work. ;)

Thanks for the helpful reply. Now I know where I stand with the vb.org team.

About 4 years ago we organised our first stand at a sound and vision show in order to spread the word about our forums. It was particularly educational for me because I got to meet lots of forum members.
It made me realise that forum members are *people* and *customers*.
I had lost sight of this and had been, for some time, running the forum a little impersonally. It happens, I think, to people who have moderated for a while. They become a little uncaring. A little dismissive, sometimes.
It's not so much letting the power go to their heads, it's just a loss of perspective.
They are busy and find themselves rushing through their moderating 'duties' a little too quickly, perhaps. Marco I think you are not taking the time to read my posts and really absorb what I'm trying to say. Never mind. Let's leave it there.

I'll just put my two cents in this thread.

Us, (as in coders) have no reason to support modification we release on this forum. Nor is it the staff job to force us to support it. We're the one that is giving it for free and letting other user(s) use it on their own forum.

Why are these hack in the graveyard?

They're not in the graveyard due to author being "absent." They are there so your forum or anyone else forum won't get hack. Don't be surprise when your forum is hack when you're using hack that has SQL Vulnerabilities.

You're always welcome to click "Unstall" so you won't receive e-mail from vBulletin.org. However, don't be creating ticket when your forum get hacks.

If you want those hack to be secure, it's best to post in the "Paid Request" and/or do it your self.

We know what you are saying. We do read your posts. You want us to suggest to coders who release their work here to waive their copyright over their work so other people can take over in their absence. What do you suggest that we do to send such a message out? As Paul has mentioned, an update to add a checkbox is being planned.

This might be a great general topic to discuss.
I am currently out of the country and have very limited access to the internet. I however did take the time to read (and understand) your post and give as good as a reply as i can give. I do admit however that i sometimes give a short (or "defensive") reply when answering on topics that have been discussed before many times.


I can not speak (obviously) for other staff members, but i do know that i take every remark/suggestion/complaint serious. If that will lead to the answers or results that the thread starter wanted, is a different issue.

Staff is here to keep things running in order (moderating) and to facilitate the community within reason. We however always need to consider the interest of the entire community (Coders, Designers and regular users), the effort needed by the staff to facilitate a request (moderator time, coding time, etc...).

vBulletin.org is not Jelsoft or our staff, it is the community itself that makes the site. So if coders want to release their work free of copyright or offer support for free (or not), then it is up to the part of the community that is made up of the coders. If (a majority or large part of) the coders would request better facilities to indicate that they offer their work free of copyright, then we would consider adding options to make that easier.

Perhaps you should re-read what you just posted here Marco:

and not be so heavy handed with your tactics...you know what I am talking about. There is way too much un-even moderation that goes on at this site by certain staff.

This is amazing news! A very nice improvement IMHO.

I disagree somewhat: Your say is defined by your ToS. I agree with you that as coders are sharing their work, they should have the last say about how and where their work ends up. However, if a coder disappears, there is only one tree left to bark at. Though I think brainstorming would be better ;)
What I mean is that something should be arranged by vb.org to handle situations where a coder disappears. If the checkbox covers that, that's extremely nice. But the situations that are not covered by the checkbox, should be covered by the vb.org ToS.

So just because I don't give a toss about my modification anymore, that gives you the right to take my code and use it to your potential benefit? That's called breach of copyright. So just because Apple doesn't give a toss about it's original macintosh line of computers, doesn't mean you can take it, add a few new bits to it and re-release it.

That said, lets say you had some hacks released here and you no longer had the time or the interest to update them anymore. What's wrong with letting another coder step in and carry on updating it for members to continue using. Remember, where not talking about a person taking over abandoned hacks to "sell" them, where talking about them still being supported as FREE hacks for community members as a whole to use. By another coder, who is quite frankly "is willing to give up his free time up to continue supporting it for you without any gains in doing so, as all download credits goes to the original author". Which would otherwise just become and outdated hack thats no longer compatible with future vBulletin releases (maybe), and end up in the graveyard as trash.

I really think the TOS on this site needs to be re-thought out. And should point out to Authors releasing hacks here, if they decide to no longer support them. Other coders have the option to take over and update them for you as an abandoned hack. In a way this already happens here anyway, I've seen many a hack released were members have replied posting fixes to errors etc. Then the Author has took it on-board and updated his hack with the help of other members replies like this.

It's a real waste to see good hacks released, only to go to the graveyard because the original Author has either vanished or simply doesn't want to know anymore. Leaving vB.org with there hands tied. This is why things must change.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but that's my decision to make, not anyone elses :) It's also important to remember the benefits of posting modifications here. I released quite a few in my earlier days here, and offered regular support throughout the forums. It served as a gateway for me to get lots of clients. Now, if Joe Bloggs comes along and takes one of my old mods, and releases it with a few fixes, who's to say that he won't get any potential commercial benefit.

At the end of the day you can argue, whine and say what you like about this subject, but peoples work remains copyrighted to them, and no-one else. Nothing you do, vBulletin.org does, can change that :)

Well the way I gather it, He wouldn't be allowed to start a new thread with an updated version of your hack. Instead it would still be the original thread he takes over, with you still listed as the original Author.

With maybe his name added as a supporting Author who has taken over an abandoned hack "in the same thread". So you still get credit for being the person who created it (and people don't get confused about that fact), and he gets credit for taking it over as abandoned. Thats my way of thinking anyway.

The way your talking about it, is as though you don't care about the fact you might have an abandoned hack here that members want to use, and for you to support it. Just as long as it drives traffic from here to your site. Nice! That said, if it was done the way I pointed out above your quote - you would still get the traffic. :)

Now it makes much more sense why vB.org send them to the graveyard. Basically there trying to force members to support there hacks to avoid situations were a members might think that way and just release a hack with no intentions of supporting it just to get traffic. plus of course to stop members installing hacks that may cause security issues with there forum etc.

But like you say, I guess you own the copyrights as Author and have the last say in the matter, so things will never change.

We're not stopping people from doing that. Anyone can ask the author for permission to continue to develop their modifications.
Coders have no obligation to support their modifications, and do not have to hand over the development of their modification to others. We will never ask coders to support their modifications or risk having it taken over by someone else.

That doesn't make much sense, when the coder has vanished.

Nothing we can do about that though.

You can be proactive by either making a ToS inclusion about it or let the coder decide how to handle it by adding a yes/no tick box to the modification's thread. (As Paul has announced)

Some of you guys are taking things to far about this.

First of all, the TOS doesn't need to be made. If I or anyone else decide to vanish, this does NOT give right for other coder to grab our codes and update it for another version.
However, you can use the same idea of the modification, but do your own coding from stratch (this way, you can support it).

We're not making any benefit from you guys using it on your board and/or supporting the modification.

I think the checkbox will pretty much solve all your guys issues.

Also it will be one more reason to install a mod, if the coder allows people to take it over if he goes away.

Not sure a checkbox would work that way. I'm guessing the checkbox would give the coder an "option". And most coders replies here indicate they would not allow it .

IMO if the TOS were rewritten, you will see a lot less hacks being posted which is a lot worst on the entire community. Keep in mind, these hacks are free and were written out of the goodness of coders hearts to help everyone else (at least for me anyway). Coders are nowhere forced to support their hacks.

If a coder has a copywrite like; Do not repost this hack without my permission, then it's pretty obvious you need their permission to edit and repost.

Just my 15cents