What do you do when you pay for a premium add-on and the developer goes AWOL?
 

I am posting this on behalf of several hundred customers of Gio-Logist who had decided to offer up a premium version of his classifieds script and other scripts but has disapeared for months at a time leaving members unable to download products they paid for and with no support for critical issues that have left members unable to use the products that they purchased.

The terms of the copyright are such that we are not supposed to talk with other people or post code for this script elsewhere but Gio~Logist is not assisting with the resolution of issues...

So, would it be wrong if a number of the customers were to pool our resources and hire more responsible developer to improve the script? On an individual basis it would be too expensive for one site to hire a programer but with a hundred or more people $10/ea we could come up with enough money to make it worth a developer's time to resolve these issues and fix a number of the faulty logic and poor design aspects of the script that we have already paid for....

This is an ethical issue I guess but I need this script and I have personally invested way too much of my own time writing code and assisting in the developent of a script that the developer seems to have little interest in supporting!

What should we do?

Because he owns the copyright to the code, he can control how the code is used; even if he decides not to work on it anymore.

No way around it, unless you want to risk a lawsuit, you'd need his permission to pool your resources.

I would recommend you looking for him on sites like rentacoder.com and review them with as negative coder and stuff. I had the same recently and feel cheated. Besides my money was lost too.

Good luck m8

First thing to do could be to ask vBulletin staff to REMOVE the add-on entry on Mods forum. It will stop publicity for Gio-Logist and stop the swindle ...

OK, I have looked at the legal terms and conditions and this is the copyright claim...


So, if a group of people needed specific fixes, would allowing a programmer get access to the files to fix the bugs and solve usability issues really be "redistributing, reproducing, or publishing" the code?

I really don't know what to do as I have two licenses and the software does work but the development has hit a dead end back in April with a sprinkle of hope every few months before the next vanishing act...

I am just frustrated as I have really tried to be patient but now I have this half developed script and I can not code what I need and I would love t get together with a few people to hire a coder to fix this mess...

Is this really am infringement on these copyright claims to have owners of the software hire someone else as a group to fix functional issues? Hell, people modify other software to meet their needs (Say MS Windows as an example)...

The big bugs in this code have to do with usergroup permissions, image uploads, and the auction functionality as a whole.

I sure hope something can be done about this, I don't really care about the money I gave him (I considered it lost a LONG time ago), but it would be really nice if someone could put some more work into it to resolve some open issues.

Quarter, if there is some way to legally allow someone to develop the code further, I nominate you as I know you are the only person who knows it inside and out at this point. I'd be glad to throw some money your way if you can work on some of the common requests.

Yea,

I was lookin into this not to long ago until i saw this, not much you can do at this point.

Im sure he'll return with an excuse or what not.

After reading the copyright, the only line that seems relevent is

I see no problem with people who paid for the premium version to decide to do modifications at their own risk. The fact that they all agree to do the same thing is irrelevent. What would NOT be OK, would be to turn around and offer the premium version (I presume he delivered some code for the premium version) for sale.

I didn't get the premium. I would love to use the basic hack, but I hate using something that is no longer supported. Seems like it would be OK if some kind soul adopted and supported the basic version, and upgraded as they saw fit.

BTW, Gio is just 15 years old!

Yes, we know Gio is only 15 and I have a great deal of respect for his coding abuility at that age. Still, those of us that bought into the script and the concept can no longer waite another 10-years until he matures enough to work with his customers to get this script where it needs to be...

I am sure that none of us that would be going in together are looking to make a script that we will sell. At this point, the goal is simply to get some help fixing issues that would be too expensive for us to hire out on a one-on-one basis...

In the past, I have shared my code with Gio to fix his script but given his failure to show any interest in helping to improve the base script these improvements to the code will not be going back to Gio to improve his program any longer as if he doesn't want to help I see no reason to continue helping him develope a product he does not wish to support himself.

@Quarterbore

You are not the only one that hasn't recieved contact from him. He has run away with other vb.org member's money, mine included. A few members at vb.org paid him to make custom mods, of which he took upfront payment and ran. I have proof PM'd to me by various users and a case is being made against him with vb.org staff. If you have anything you would like to say about Gio, his service, him taking money without providing return service, or anything of this nature, PM everything to user "Chris M". (he is vb.org staff). Gio will need to face the fact that he has a lot of people wanting to contact him, and if he keeps failing to respond, action needs to be taken so that people know his pattern of dissappearing and untrusting business practices.

Consequences he can face if enough people PM and build a case:
- user can be black marked to warn other vb.org users about his bad behaviours
- his account on vb.org can be banned
- the issue can be brought up to vbulletin.com staff, investigated, and his entire vbulletin license can be revoked, causing him to shut down his website (siteresort)
- paypal investigation/claim to freeze his funds if enough people file a joint complaint

So has anyone seen him online anywhere at all? It could be something happened to him. It could also be that he had grade problems and his parents took away his internet and or computer. Just ask my kids about that reality.

Not to demean your concerns, just curious.

Wow, I didn't know Gio is only 15...:speechless:

Anyway, I have paid for the premium script and a branding free option, but just like most of the people here, I have been left out in the cold...

Quarterbore, I'm with you and everyone else on this. I am willing to contribute and invest in making this script better and fixing the bugs.

Let me know how and when I can help.

This script is really good and it's really a shame that Gio has acted this way...

We should probably save all the good posts and threads from siteresort, 'cause I have a feeling it's just a matter of time before we get the 404 error...


cheers,

cMax

I always keep a copy of my mods as you never know when a site will go down so all of the code I had posted on there is secure. When I get a chance I will look at my collection of domains and see if I can create a place for SR_Classifieds owners to get together to decide how we want to work together to find someone to fix the issues we have and decide on priorities...

I own well over 100-domains and many of them are not developed so I just went an created a small forum for those that are customers of Gios that might be interested in contracting out some help to address problems that we can ot get resolved through Gio...

Here is a link:

http://www.eazyforums.com/

I have not worked on a phpBB forum in a couple years and I have no plans to spend a lot of time making that forum look nice but it will give us a place to work!

I have several PM's from users here that have sent me proof or complaints about gio. I can share them if a case needs to be built up against him to take action. I'm inviting other vb.org members to post here about their experiences with Gio, any payments they made to him, any sort of custom hacks that he was supposed to code but didnt... etc. So, if its ok with Quarterbore, I'd like to open this thread to anything about Gio that has been negative to you, not just about premium upgrades of his products.

@Code Monkey
Yes, something may have happened to Gio, this is true, but he has sent emails on occation saying he will finish up my project... so he isn't completely gone or missing. It has been over a month since I paid him $300 USD for a custom mod... he coded part of it (and did a good job on what he did do) but then he left the second half of the project unfinished. Now he has stopped communicating, and I've heard enough excuses that I am getting quite annoyed. If he was only working on my project, nobody elses, and something happened, I'd understand. But when there are a dozen users who were also in the same situation as me... thats a whole different story and something needs to be done. I'm quite threw with wasting time on trying to hunt him down.

Gio... if you're reading this, you can still redeem yourself. E-mail me please! Finish up the projects you started and promised to people so we can move on, no hard feelings.

I paid him $700USD for a custom project and thought I was doing the right thing by paying in installments as the project progressed. He did deliver the product and I have to say that I am very happy with what he has done to date.

However, there are still a few bugs, and on the rare occasion when I've heard from Gio he has promised to fix them. But I'm really losing hope that this will ever happen. I haven't even gone live yet with this product, so who knows what else will turn up once my members actually start using it. I'm very frustrated that he is not providing any support whatsoever!

He is obviously a bright kid, and I was aware of his age when I agreed to pay him for this project. In hindsight, that seems like a bad decision, but based on his reputation here, and the support he provided for SR_Classifieds when I bought it, he appeared to be fairly reliable.

I wish he would simple admit to his failings and make some effort to refund people's money. If he's not willing to accept any responsibility I agree that he should be blacklisted here, and ideally his PayPal account should be frozen, so he can't do business like this anymore.

Andrew

@Arossphoto

That is definately a LOT of money for a mod. It must have been quite an amazing mod for that price.

The fact that he is 15 really doesn't mean anything in the world of programming. I was young when I started... you can be 10 years old and be a coding guru. Maybe a little immaturity might surface, but young kids can still be awesume coders. Gio did do a good job for what he got done, but he didn't finish my project, just like Arossphoto said, he has a chance to redeem himself. Admit he was wrong, finish the project, give a partial refund if he is really feeling generous. I just want to get what I paid for.

Thanks.

FWIW, I had paid Gio a deposit for a custom skin recently. After a period of no contact, I called him and he told me he was real busy and it would be a while before he got to my project. I requested my deposit back and he sent it to me a few days later. Whew!

This is my first time doing something like this so maybe I got ripped off. But I posted on these forums for a coder to do my project and I received a few estimates. The highest one was more than $3000+! The guy who provided that estimate did seem to have his act together and provided the most thorough and professional estimate. But his price was way out of my range. I had some experience with Gio and his projects, so I decided to give him a try. I have no doubt that he could do what he promised, but he has obviously taken on more projects than he can handle, along with school and other commitments.

Ya, well it was the same with me, I knew Gio's classifieds product and thought it was really good, which is why I asked him to code my custom mod.

@bchertov
You are VERY lucky to have received a refund! I paid him $300 and asked for a refund a few days later (since I found someone to do the project for free), and he refused to refund me and wanted to code the project even though I told him I found someone else. So consider yourself very lucky. It may be that Gio figured out that he was way too busy and you would be very unhappy waiting, so he thought he'd just save you the hassle and refunded. :)

No, but in the world of business and ethics age does matter.

With regards to "taking action" that'll be interesting, considering Gio's age.

Got to say, on this matter alone he has done nothing wrong. You paid him and then changed your mind, that's your problem, not his.

Sorry to sound harsh but that's the way it is.

Most coders will operate a no-refunds policy in these circumstances. In a few days he may have already begun the work.

You should call his parents; they may not be aware of his "business ethics" and being potentially liable they should be made aware of the situation.

Refunds because you changed your mind are not an entitlement; like Mark said.

I'm not excusing the fact that I asked for a refund after the project just started. I am only bringing up that point because bchertov meantioned getting a refund after the project was agreed upon. Thats all. The point is that I stuck with Gio despite all the alternatives I could have taken, I gave him full details on what he had to do, even made up prototype diagrams of how it should look and operate.

I'm not angry about not getting a refund, I am angry about him not finishing my project. Plain and simple.

How did you pay him? Paypal? If so get his contact info and call his parents or report his ass. Yeah hes under age but also his parents are responsible for his actions since hes under age. And if he cant accept money via online payments then it surely is in his parents name so get in contact with what ever company you sent the money through.

been reading through this whole thread as i'm currently looking for a designer so was curious about the goings on about paying for custom work.

Feel sorry for anyone who has paid this guy as its not right what ever way you look at it, he could be 5 years old, or 40 years old the fact is he's ripping people off.
As some people have mentioned that he may be just too busy or had pc taken off him theres nothing stoping him from coming on here and making a post saying im sorry to anyone who has paid for custom work to be done iam currently very busy with work at the moment.
he should also have by now closed his site down with a similar notice and sent a mass e-mail to his members.

it's opened my eye's about what goes on and will be very careful before choosing a designer for my site.:cross-eyed:

Hey, Gio logged onto his site today... first time in about 2-weeks and I see he came over here soon after (Not sure if he dropped in this thread however...)

So, he is still alive...

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/member.php?u=57621

lol look on his site call his house the number is right on his site. http://www.DopeGFX.com

also on his own yesterday
http://www.siteresort.com/member.php?u=1

I purched his script "Extra Threadfields Premium" a few weeks ago. From his support-forum it looked like that I was one of the first customers for this script.

It turned out that he did not spend a single moment to test his own release-package. A couple of obvious mistakes were in the package, but he was online that time and fixed them wile I was reporting them. This all gave me the impression, that he was more or less inexperienced. But I got the script I had payed for...

Anyway - I must admit, that I did not had the time to play around with this script any further.

kind regards,
Gérome

@DementedMindz
I paid with Paypal... however, I paid him. He didn't pay me. So I dont have his address or other info, only his paypal email. Pretty useless.

@Davidhi
I completely agree

@Quarterbore
Vb.org says he logged in today ALL the time. Every day it says he's logged in. I asked Gio about it a long time ago and he said he doesn't login everyday and vb.org is inaccurate. Maybe some cron job is running that shows him as being logged in? If he HAS logged in every day... why would he ignore all these posts? He hasn't replied to any of his product threads either.

nah you can get his info right from paypal file a thing with them. Call his house his number is right on his site. (786)259-5988

Just dispute the payment with paypal and let them deal with it.

A dispute with paypal will not work for items that are of a digital nature, i.e. you downloaded the item!

well if you have everyone who is saying they didnt get what they paid for write paypal im sure they will do something no matter what. I have had things that were refunded that I didnt think paypal would but they did. Once a person gets so many complaints paypal will step in no matter what I guess the best bet is to file a dispute with them and a day later and call and explain to them how he ripped everyone off. Only way to stop him is turn him in. He will lose his paypal account and im sure his parents wouldnt like a reverse charge coming out of there account. But the bottom line I would call his house his number is right there be sneaky ask for his parents. Then im sure things may change unless there like he is.

His paypal account is in his name not his parents: "Giovanni Martinez" Which means he is breaking paypals TOS or T's&C's (depending on what you call them)

With non tangible goods, Paypal almost laways sides on the customer

Everything any of my products say they offer, is offered. Also, it is not my obligation to further advance the product. I have (dozens of times) added things requested by customers. The product also does not have any major bugs that effect performance, or else there would not be hundreds of them with hundreds of listings on forums. As far as customer service, no where in the purchase (as far as i'm concerned) does it say that you are purchasing customer service as well. However, i have to my best abilities (until the recent future, for various complications have come to perspective) given my all to customer service.

With that being said, what i am about to announce i believe is both expected and already forecasted by various people. For a 15 year old, it is obvious that managing a business with hundreds of customers, paid customers for large projects, school, and a normal life can be overwhelming at the least. This has led to various complications, including hospitalization and such. It has been time for me to do this for a while now. I will be "retiring" and taking down my business for a while. If and when i do come back, things will be done differently (hopefully for the better).


Also, to answer some questions:

1) Can i take a script and have someone improve it?
Sure, you just cannot resell any of the scripts.

2) Can i improve the script myself?
Resort to answer number 1.

3) What if i am interested in a script still, would it be possible for me to purchase one even though the business is down?
You may email me at gio@dopegfx.com

Which is exactly why he was not given a refund. I actually did alternate work for him.





I will like to rap this up by saying this. Before recent events, i have not had a single complaint. Recent complaints are due to siteresort products, which i already addressed the issue of, and 2 or 3 three projects.

Acrrossphoto - feel free to email me. Your work was done, and i believe there are 1 or 2 minor bugs that exist? I will take a look.

Toolblast - I've explained myself various times, and another member even explained to you that this was not my fault. You cannot hire someone, and then decide to go with a group of other people once that person has already started and expect your money back.. when you have taken their time (which is indeed money) already. I did some alternate work for you, on top of what was already done.

Thanks Gio... I take your permission to allow those of us that want to get together to make improvements permission to do so even if we need to work together to hire a programmer to help us with this...

I respect this a great deal!

I will be working with a few people to make some changes as a break-a-way product off your base script. I will ensure that your product rights are protected as best I can but to do this you may need to allow me to be incontact with you.

Lastly, you really should consider letting another coder help you with your scripts and perhaps form a partnership... I would love to see these scripts become what they could be and that was what this exercise was all about. Yu had a number of coders on your site that were willing to help and I am still wrking towards that goal but I have just waited all I care to anymore to see major functional changes I was looking for and others would like too.

That is what this was all about... Take some time, consider a partner, and take on one project at a time. Just running away from people for months at a time will cause the reaction you are seeing here!

@Gio

Hi Gio! Welcome back!

You did the comment hack, but you still have the events mod to do (this 'alternate work' you speak of). You agreed on doing both. A while back you e-mailed me saying you were going to finish the events mod on Sunday night a week or so ago. Were you able to finish it? All I need is that completed and we're good to go :)

Please check your e-mail and we'll communicate via e-mail. Thanks.


@Demented
I am not the type of person to file chargebacks or disputes. As Gio said, he hasn't done anything wrong up until this little issue of him being away, so as long as he keeps up his side of the bargain and completes the 'alternative' work he's talking about... which is the event mod, then we both go away happy, no hard feelings at all. I would just like it completed! :) ...and as I said before numerous times. I already finalized with Gio about the fact on the refund issue with him. I am not asking for a refund from him, that is out of the question, so stop bringing it up please. He has been paid, and he just needs to do some finishing up on my project, thats all I want.

Thanks to everyone for your help and advice.

Quarterbore,
I want to be part of the funding of getting a programmer to fix the Classified script. Contact me if you decide to start the "project".
From what I've seen in the script it looks like it should not be to hard to fix the permission and auction issues. I don't use them yet so I have not investigated the problems.

Gio,
Your script is serving my site well and has been well worth the money.
Even with the minor bugs people have made complaints about I think the price is very fair.
Take your time and try to fix your backlog and I think we all will welcome you back if you decide to continue your work on the scripts.
You are a talented programmer and will have a future in that business if you should choose to continue.

Regards
Hakan