Suggestions: How to bring vBulletin.org back to what it was before...
 

I'm going to open this thread, in hope that the old school coders will listen to me and try to make an arangement with the current vBulletin.org "business" administration.
In other words, they will start to participate in the forum activities, if they see significant improvements.
If you do not post in this thread, that means you do like the way it is now the community.
But if there is the smallest thing you would like to see it changed, you should raise your voice and post your thoughts.

I will start by posting how it was vBulletin.org ruled, before it started to fall apart.
The term Hacker was not a crime in the old days. A Hacker used to be a great guy/girl who helped others until his/her fingers hurt typing.

Basic Rules:
1. No paying hacks allowed. If you want to make money, you are not welcome to advertise your products at vB.org site, in links, any way or shape of promotion schemes.
2. No bashing or making fun of the new guys. Warnings and bans for those smart guys.
3. Politness is a must. You want to be rude or insultant, come back when you know how to say sorry in front of everyone and admit your mistakes. Do you really think a hacker will care that you like only plugins, being lazy to edit 2-3 lines of code in the actual VB files? He will look at you like a negative guy, not giving the smallest effort to learn something new. So why do you have to make posts like: I will never install this hack, because I only install plugins... In other words, you just said that the hours the hacker spent to create the code hack are worth crap in your eyes.
4. Help anyone, not only yourself. Do not be lazy to post, if you know the answer... someone will thank you and help you with other things... like for example promoting your website?
5. Encourage others in their work. Do you see someone working hard on a project or piece of code? Offer your help if you have the time to do it. They will be grateful.

Site Organisation:
1. This site was created for the hackers to share their vBulletin code into a safe environment. I never liked the idea of having templates or graphic forums.
We are here to create PHP and vBulletin hacks, not to make flower design or learn HTML. Those forums should be located at vBulletin.com site. With only 46 threads started into those forums, you have the answer by yourself.
2. We should see all the forums visible on the front page, like the old times. Not to navigate through a zillion forums until I get to the hack that I'm looking for. The old hack database should be written again.
3. A team of vBulletin programmers should be assigned for the site maintenance only, it should not be a burden for administrators to edit and upgrade every time to the latest vBulletin version.

Now, I invite all hackers to post their wishes, in this way we might have a chance to revive the community that is going down very fast, as we speak.
We would like to see some decissions taken, and very fast.
If you agree with my wishes, please post here and don't forget to add yours.
Hopefully we will be able to save the vB.org Titanic from sinking.

EDIT: If you think is useful, move this thread to Annoncements forum.
I want to see if others will participate in this discussion. If you don't, I guess we all have the answer what will happen to vB.org site.

Show support to this thread, add this signature to your profile:

I agree with all your points except perhaps the first one.

I am not sure where I stand on the paid mod thing but lets put that aside for a second... if a mod is a good idea and seems popular, lets put some group energy into making one for the community here.

edit: I do like having template and graphics forums on here to provide a consolidated resource. Chances are, someone making a hack may need assistance with templates, etc.

Reeve, I know is a delicate matter... But those were the rules on the old times.
A hacker should never charge someone for a hack, especially when it was made using the vBulletin code techniques.
In other words, I look at the vBulletin code, learn from it and then I create a hack that will work with vB, based on the vBulletin functions... then I start charging. Where is the fairness in this?
Hey, the vBulletin should charge me money for using their code property or techniques, right?

If you make a hack that does not use one single line of vB code or technique, then yes, you can sell it. But I doubt there are any paying hacks like that out there...
Very good point, those questions were adressed in the hack thread by the creator or other fellow hackers.
I was trying to put emphasis that vB.org was a hacker community. The general HTML and design questions should be answered to vBulletin.com site, since they don't interfere with any code hacking.

Another rules you should add, Floren, is for those that are looking for answers to READ THE THREAD before asking questions that will most likely have been answered in that thread already. Too many users here come up with the crap "I just don't have time to read the thread" or "there are 15 pages, I don't want to have to read through the whole thread." In the old days there were sometimes 50 pages and more, but we read through them and even learned a few things along the way.

As for your idea, it is a great one but a little too late with the mentality here now, I'm afraid.

Bobby, we will see how people react. Hey, it's worth trying.

Also, the rule you posted it was part of the old community.
Those are not my rules, everyone have the right to post and interact in this thread.
I have as much rights to post something in this thread, as the new guy who just stepped into our community.
Way back, hackers were listening to everyone and embraced their ideas in all the constructive possible ways.

I dare you guys to call me a hacker, not a coder. :)
I already started feeling a little like in the old days, don't you think Bobby?

To bad, TeckWizards.com is gone... I will open a new site were we can all meet and discuss, if things will not change. I promise you, it will be greater then the old one. :)

I still call them hacks :D - We are hackers, people these days are coders :ermm:

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we rolled back .org to 2 years ago and see if we can continue on properly from there, but thats just me :) lol...

I miss the old days :(

Now to go to sleep since I've been up for 49 hours >.> :(

Chris

pfft, your getting old Chris if your complaining about not having any sleep over a weekend.

Haha, now we are talking as hackers! Welcome back Chris!

Hehe theres only so much red bull and coffee and coke and all sorts of other highly caffeinated drinks you can consume before you feel ill and end up drifting off...

It's worse when you've been driving over 100 miles at 4am to get home :D :p

Chris

nice thread TECK i wasnt around then but from what i have heard and read it was a much nicer place then... hey if it was nice then why not try it over again? cause things around here have been getting bad.. i am all for the vb.org not having paid hacks too.. maybe not as far as saying they cant come here but surely not spam there products... ill say one of the most spammed i think on here is that vbseo... there is links in his hacks links every where for that in his threads... i heard and seen enough of that... but i also do think if they want to do the whole paid thing they should at least have to give some kinda money back to vbulletin since its really vbulletin thats making them there money... then maybe they could hire some permant staff to watch over this site too... but thats just my thoughts im sure ill get a hell of alot of negative people posting replys for this... BUT oh well just my thoughts and how i feel...

A true community member, called hacker, will never bash on you... when you simply express your own thoughts.
It's not a crime to say out loud what you think, if it's said in a constructive way.

To tell you the truth, I purchased vbSEO, for the simple reason I saw no way, with the actual vB.org situation, to have a hack like that released for free.
If the code would not be encrypted, I'm sure it looks like 90% vBulletin code.
I'm pretty sure that's the reason the code is encrypted, they could not sell the product, without getting pinched by vBulletin for proprietory code usage.

I cannot use vBulletin code or techniques to develop a product, then sell it as mines.
It infringes the vBulletin copyright.

wow. just wow.

Generally speaking, paid hacks aren't the problem. Some hacks are really complex and require alot of support and are worth the few extra bucks that people want to charge for it. Some aren't and chances are they wont recieve alot of purchases. It works itself out in the end for the most part and there will always be something similiar around vb.org for free for those are more inclined to using it.

But anyway...

I remember when vbulletin.org first opened up and releasing a hack was considered prestigious. No matter how big or small the modification might be (some were 2 line template edits!), it was your five minutes of glory and everyone appreciated the fact that someone took their time to contribute something back to the community.

Most of us were new to programing in general and questions were tolerated and encouraged and if people got a little snippy once in a while, its one of those things you just shrugged off - like your gf yelling at you when its her time of the month or the parking ticket you got for waking up five minutes late.

phpbb or ubb would release some mod or include some feature that vbulletin didn't have and being the proud types that we are - we rolled our own and tried to "one up" them in the process. It was competitive fun.

edit: that reminds me of another thing. Requests were more simplistic in the vb2 days. Karma was just an integer that was incremented or decreased by a button... today, people are expecting someone to replicate myspace for free. Thats an educational issue and we should do a better job of establishing expectations.

If you want to bring those golden days back, its pretty simple.

* Stop complaining. Some people love drama for the sake of drama but I for one hate it. It serves no purpose and only creates aggitation where are are striving for harmony.

* Make it easier to do business. In short thats the hack database with a wiki like function so users can contribute answers to FAQ's and the occassional code snippet to get something to work between upgrades.

* Keep it fun. No one gets paid to release thier work. Its released because someone needs it for thier own site or because they enjoy the challenge and wanted to create something. Who wants to contribute thier work when its people nagging all the time?

* Practice what we preach. We want to encourage people to post thier mods then we should give a helping hand where needed on thier projects. That doesn't mean coding it for them but encouraging them on how to go about a project, resources to check into, even perhaps books to buy.

I can go on but *yawn* it is getting late.

You answered like everyone else relativelly new here. A normal post will be:
Teck, what's wrong with having people posting templates and graphics at vB.org? I like having graphics templates posted... I'm actually pretty good with Photoshop! :)

Then, I would answer to you:
Hi Truth,
You are right... It's a personal oppinon.
The idea of this thread is to see what it has to be done in order to make vB.org a better place and your oppinion counts as much as mines. :)
If you have any suggestions related to this matter, please post them here.

2004. Yes, that was a good year! I will probably make my usual long post about this in the morning. However, it's 3AM and i'll probably end up typing something completely useless hehe.

So true, everything what you posted Reeve.
You should go on, when you have time, Reeve. This is an important matter...

To the pioneers who made this product what it is.. Thanks!!! vB would not be what it is today if not for you efforts.
But when it comes down to the nitty gritty, you have been contributing to a commercial product.
Much has changed in the business of developing, marketing and selling interactive software since the good ole days.
And on the customer side, the cost of this software is negligble in relation to all other expenses, so, as long as it is possible to import this product to another, life-long dedication to this product can not be assured.

We are living at the cutting edge of a technological revolution and developments are happening faster than some bright minds can keep up with. I think burnout is one culprit that sends some aspiring minds to the way-side.

This is why it is imperative that there be a greater collaboration between vB.com and the coders at vB.org. (Ok, if you want to call yourself hackers, that's fine, but terminology also changes for a reason).

Overall it is you who have been greatly instrumental in the formation of ideas into practical applications.
In essence this is the site which has been pre-beta testing mods with customers, and demonstrating to vB that there is interest in these features and functionalities.

I believe vB, with the intro to 3.6 is now taking the next (albiet overdue) steps to implementing (some of) these mods into it's core products.
The path they choose to take regarding this site and the relationship between coders here remains to be seen.
I personally can say one thing for certain. Despite every mod/hack that's available here, I still need more modifications to get my vb working as desired.
We are still a long ways from perfection ;)

Good points MJM. For example the news robot, implemented in 3.6 version.
What would you do/change to improve the vB.org community?

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Since this thread deals with vBulletin.org - I've moved it to the Site Feedback Forum.

You can't enforce rules like this, it's all about attitude. Floren, this place will never be like it used to be unless it's split entirely from Jelsoft again.

I can't say much about the "glory days" as the only memory of vBulletin I had before joining here was when I installed a pirated vB2 on my site and was in awe at how much better it was than wBB, but I took it down because I was too scared of getting legal letters... :p


About the graphics sections, my opinion is divided.
For one I completely understand how it takes the focus away from the coding, which is what the core of this site was. But on the other hand, it's sort of frustrating for users (ie non-hackers/designers) to have to register on three sites in order to get everything official vBulletin has to offer. vBcom, vBorg and vBTemp.
I suppose this could be remedied by allowing the graphics sections to be completely hidden, similar to the 3.0 and 2.0 forums can (or should) be.

Your post elaborates on something I said in one of the drama threads, something like "What makes a newbie into a hacker? Willpower and motivation. The newbie is responsible for the willpower, vBorg is responsible for the motivation."
I use the term newbie meaning someone new to this site.

What do you propose we do about whiners? I mean people like in the "for those who have left" thread who can do nothing but put down every single attempt the staff does at accomodating the hackers' wishes.

What do you propose we do about offering motivation? Not everybody releases their work because they use it on the site. To use myself as an example, I used to work on the RPG because I used it on my forum, but now I dont have one and therefore that motivation is lost. I only not quit working on the hack because Id feel bad about saying "well sod this, Im out.", so do you have any solution as to providing motivation to keep coming back to code?

Hope to hear more on this, and pray this thread be free of lamers.

Well ... firstly I want to say that I don't think the essence or spirit of this community is lost. It is (mostly) preserved in all the contributions that have been made to this site.
Most vB users, (including me) don't regularly come here to gain insight through these discussions or ponder inhouse debate, but to utilize the mods that others have generously provided.
It is only a relatively small number who are part of daily going-ons, or return from the past and may perceive mole hills as mountains, so to speak.

I am writing for several reasons ...
This software, combined with a photo gallery application means very very much too me. It has enabled me on a small income to put my life's work on the net in an interactive community environment. My wishes were simply to share info, ideas and experiences regarding my profession - as a mostly recreational artist in a specialized medium - in a non-commercial environment.
It has evolved, from a site comprised of mostly newbies wanting to learn, to increasing numbers of up-and-coming professionals who need to find ways to make a living from their acquired talents.
(even though a large number of members use their talents primarily as a recreational hobby)

Now I am faced with the challenge of deciding what level or direction of commercialization to take the site, without losing the integrity of a site that was based on sharing without expectation of monetary gains.

This is where I see similarities.
vB.org has provided this community for learning and sharing.
Now many have become or are becoming professionals and need to make something from it to justify the effort spent.
(even though a large number share their talents and consider it a recreational hobby)

There is another similarity
In proportion to my membership base, and to vB's membership base, it is only a small percentage of members who have made most of the contributions of content, or code to the community.

This clearly demonstrates that it is not necessary to provide a commercial platform for the whole world to engage in, but rather, one could bring together a smaller team of professionals to develop content/code, and thereby retain the integrity of the community as one of members helping members.
This still leaves open the possibility of having a separate paid resource directory.

Well, as a non-coder I'm not qualified to give any opinions on the direction of vB.org but to wish you the best.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share these thoughts.

Goodnight ... er good morning :)
Mark

Wow, i dident even know that it worked out this way once.
I purshased a lisens fore three years ago, perhaps four. Stopped counting.
But i dident dare to try out any hacks. Silly me, but i was a complete newbee and rather paid other to do it.
So i missed the "glory" days.

I pretty mutch agree to all your points, TECK. But i fell there is plenty of room fore both designers and coders/hackers.
The skills of some of the grafic and designs are fore me, absolut fabiolus.
The same goes to the hackers/coders.

Not everyone have been sitting infront of there computers since they turned 13- 14 years old. Most of this is a new world to me.

I think there have been to mutch demanding. When someone demands other peopel to do something, they simply wont do it.

I think one of the most importent thing here is, witch role should admin/moderator have in this place.
Cant they also bee members to? Like Boofo, hes always happy and always try to see the things positiv. But instead, hes getting crap fore not beeing to seriuos.

The worst thing i can read here, is a smartass, that thinks everyone is in a high skills level with codes Yes, we can get better using the sears button. But it isent always we get a good answer just by searshing.

Isent vBorg a playground actually, shouldent it be fun to be here?
Some peopel, do this fore a living. So i understand that they have to get paid some how.

*sorry fore my bad english*

I don't like your first point and the other points... Well they are no fun!

Which post are you referring to? You totally lost me there. :cross-eyed:

Hi tehste,

Please post what you think it should be organized the vB.org community.
Avoid the stereotype that people adopted on this site. Tell us why you don't like the points, develop, discuss, interact with people.

Ok the people running this site have made some mistakes. The biggest problem is between peaks of activity they all dissapear. There are too many personal battles going on which takes its toll. Also I think because Jelsoft are so -involved- they should either appoint the staff or remove their involvement.

The second reason is the attitude of the users. Just because someone has a vbulletin license does not give them the right to free support on community addons. If the features you want aren't there why not add them yourself. Or atleast try! Ok so your not willing to spend some time learning or as it is said: "I can't code because I don't have the time LOL". Ironically I can't be bothered finishing this point.

Thirdly the staff restructure is lame and will only make things messier. :)

I don't see how retaining a ban on the promotion and discussion of commerical modifications will help to build a cohesive environment? Rather than completely ignore and disregard the existence of these modifications why not generate a self moderated database or directory of these modifications which are after all helping to contribute towards the vBulletin "experience". Rather than being an "Ultimate vBulletin Resource (minus all commercial entities)", why not actually live upto your slogan?

Agreed, wholeheartedly. I'm relatively new here, but the personal conflicts, vendettas and agendas seem clear.

I'll agree with this too, but I've seen some attitude from coders too. If you make suggestions or ask questions about how to modify something in their code to better suit your needs, they get surly. It can be tough for a beginner, trying to learn, in an environment like that.

I'm inclined to agree on this too, but am willing to wait and see.

At the very least I'd like to know why an innocuous post I'd made here was deleted within 5 minutes of me making it, with no explanation whatsoever to me. I PM'ed a bunch of staff members, and got no answer.

This place sure feels weird at times... like children are running the show. Considering it's a forum of forum administrators, one would think those in positions of authority would have a very strong handle on these matters.

Ok its 00:30 so Im gonna be brief.


Agreed.
Agreed + laffin not-quite-out loud.
Disagreed.
I think the staff restructure can not only lead to good things (more features(coding)/better design(design)/better customer support(customer)) but its a way of rewarding deserving contributors to the site (with one exception for unknown reasons... (please dont take this personally christianb, I don't know you and Im sure your a great guy and a good coder, I just have never heard about you before you showed up on the staff page :p))

Ok that was too many parenthesisesees, Im off for sleep.
And yes Im fully aware I will feel dumb for writing this dribble in the morning.

I have no problem with people posting free plugins. In fact, I join all the others in expressing gratitude for those willing to provide free plugins. I too deplore the "entitlement" attitude that many of the hackers/coders have had to deal with, and understand the frustrations that can cause.

I think the site should definitely have stricter standards about thread management, and these standards/principles rigorously enforced by the staff, whether or not that staff is paid or volunteer. Though it has angered some, to have their posts deleted, threads split or moved, I can only say in the long run, it's for the best, and I hope the trend continues.

The "big issue" for me, though, is the door this site slams in the face of any who want to learn/teach vBulletin development, but who for good reasons don't want to code a plugin for public release. Many very good, very professional, very helpful developers are being shut out of this community.

Without intending any disrespect to the coders here, I think there is too much emphasis on that aspect of vbulletin.org, and not enough on open coding discussions in general. I would respectfully request, once again, that the Coders Discussion be made public.

Just my .02 about something...

One thing that bothers me about paid hacks - is when people post hacks for paid hacks.

To be clear, I am NOT voicing an opinion either way about the advertsiing about paid hacks.

But I came across a hack the other day that sayid I had to have VBSEO installed to use the hack. I think, if you want to hack a paid hack, advertise it on the product's board, not here.

When I started my recreational arts and crafts site, I stipulated - no ads or links of any way shape or form.

Over time a number of working artisans had provided very helpful info and how-to instructions, so, at my discretion, I added links to valued members websites in their profile and signatures.

The #1 cardinal rule is NEVER DISCUSS PRICE OR BUSINESS TRANSACTIONS AT THE SITE.

This has been abided by flawlessly for 5 years - till today!
A new member joins and asks how to make something.
In my reply, I linked to a posting by a valued member who had provided a pictorial construction tutorial.

This new member goes to his site, checks his prices, then has the audacity to reply to his thread in the nastiest tone ... $XXX!!! - USERNAME FROM XYZ.COM IS A RIP-OFF! etc etc etc.
Fortunately I was able to immediately delete this post, ban this user, and email this valued member and apologize.

Lesson learned is that you can never have a completely foolproof interactive community, because a jerk is born every minute, and one day one will find your site.
I firmly believe that a site that is valued for quality and integrity must be cultivated 24/7 - with weeding hoe always in hand.

Stop living in the past ...

• The internet is evolving.
• vBulletin is evolving. eg. it's a lot easier to add new features
• The way people surf the net is evolving.
• There are more programmers and/or newbies.
• There are more vbulletin resources.

Most sites "fall apart" because they do not change. If you cannot keep up with the "evolution" than you might as well give up.

The problem with vb.org is that it really hasn't changed.
Yea, some minor things but nothing concrete.
NOTE: I'm one that's been on this board since the start of vbulletin 2.

So, each time somone says, "back in the old days" ... I cringe.
I mean ... what is that suppose to mean?

I'll bet 5 years from now ... people will be referring to today as "back in the old days". :D

So far you are the only one feeling like that. I don't feel like living in the past, but I do want to see at vB.org the same atmosphere like 4 years ago. That's not called living in the past, but applying something that was working for the community.
An example for "people living in the past"... How do you explain those TV commercials that pass now on and they look like the 70's commercials?
I guess the producers are living in the past also...

First, how can you explain that people are not happy with the shape vB.org is taking?
vB.org changed a lot, that's the reason many good people left. And many people complain because the actual changes.
In short, there is no support like it was before and the forums are a mess not the mention the people's attitude.
There will be a ton more of users complaining if they would be registered and active users since 2001-2002.
Second, you cannot know the golden vB.org years because you were not here to post and and interact with hackers activelly, even if it shows into your registration date.
You started being active at vB.org when VB3 came out. Visiting only to download a hack and post one reply/week is not called active.
As a matter of fact, you consider yourself active with 1.16 posts/day?
And you are part of the support Team? What kind of support you offer to people with 1.16 posts/ day? I'll let you be the judge...

So telling people to stop living in the past is a little insulting, don't you think?

Another thing that should be outlawed is when someone is developing a hack, people respond with "Yes, MAKE IT, I'd PAY GOOD MONEY FOR THIS HACK!!!" i was recently reading a thread in the modification discussion forum and saw probably about 12 of these posts..... :dumb:

they are selling something new ... something that has evolved ... they are not trying to sell you the same jeans from the 70's ... it may look the same but the product and the message is different

Can you provide us with a detailed list on how vb.org changed? Please provide us with specifics. No generalizing as that does not help anyone.

I don't know about you ... but, one does not have to be registered nor "participate" to enjoy a site and get to know people.

Can you give us a description of what you expect from a staff member? On your site, on this site, on any site.


By the way ... I'm trying to reinforce your message.
Your message really is not helpful in it's current form.
It may make you feel better .. but, it does not help in any form.

If it makes you feel better, you can continue to degrade my "status" as it does not hurt me. But, I do hope that you keep this thread in a positive direction.

TECK is right princeton, you weren't around when the old school folks were.

Nevertheless it's naive to think that things don't change, but one would expect change for the better :)

Staff Responsibilities / Behavior:

• Welcome new members, acquainting them with the site structure and operation.
• Keep threads on-topic: split, merge, move, delete.
• Respond to 'Site Feedback' in a prompt and professional manner. Site Feedback is between the member with the praise/complaint, and the staff... not a free-for-all unless so indicated, such as this thread.
• Delete useless posts, or off-topic posts.
• Monitor inactive threads... close them after a reasonable time so they aren't pointlessly "bumped".
• Monitor posts with no replies. PM members whom you think could reply, pointing them to the post.
• Avoid conflicts of interest. If a staff member is involved in a thread, another staff member should perform any moderation tasks that might be required for that thread.
• In general, work to make the forum productive and pleasant for all, suggesting and implementing features to make it more accessible (not less).

tgreer,

Thank you ... it's appreciated.

FYI: I agree on a lot of what you posted. :up: