I think I've had enough
 

I think I've reached the point to no return. I've been trying really hard to not come to this dissuasion, but with the way things are around here; I feel like I have no other choice but to stop releasing my work here, and supporting the hacks I have here now. Nothing around here is the same anymore. vBulletin.org used to look at the coders as the gas that runs this site, when FireFly was around. But times have changed. Now, coders are just people who release some random scripts here. The community here gives nothing back to the people who spend hours beyond hours coding something that will never make them a dime.

Yea, we got ourselves our own forums. WOOT! well this only took 5 years to happen, and now anyone who releases a hello world script can access it. What happen to this hacks database system? When are we going to see this happen? Has this even been half way coded? Will it be months beyond months until we can use this? I can totally understand that a hack like this will not just code itself, and people have real life things to deal with. So why not hand it off to a team? There are hundreds of users here that would gladly dedicate some time to help code. Instead, you leave this in the hands of one person. Who hasn't been active in god knows how long.

I'm also really really sick and tired of customers coming to this site and demanding, bashing, and degrading what this site once was. Not only do the non-coder customers do it, but lately I've seen this in allot of the staff here.

For the most part, allot of the staff here do a fine job I'm sure. When it comes to moderating the post and what not. Though the unfriendliness and lack of professional attitude amongst the staff here disgust me the most, and that's the main reason for my dissuasion to leave. Just because you have a staff title, does not make you any better then anyone else. Staff seem to forget that we are coming here as a customer and releasing our work here FREE OF CHARGE. You need to think about that every time you reply to a customer. Stop treating people that post here like a baby, or some idiotic person.

Lately Paul M has been getting alot of heat from the staff, so it seems. Why is this? Maybe because when he post he is blunt and tells it like it is.Though when you post like that, that is considered a bad thing to some of the staff here. Well you know what? Get over it and move on and keep your mouth shut or just +++++ about us in your private forums or something. I don't spend hundreds of dollars a year to come here and see others treated with disrespect. Not only others, but myself has been treated with a great deal of disrespect in the past. Directly from 3 of the staff members here now. 1 which is no longer staff anymore. (Dean).

vBulletin.org is losing allot of talented coders and something really needs to be done. Jelsoft really needs to look at this site, and control whats going on around here. Yea, Jelsoft owns this site, but they certainly don't control whats going on around here. So I'm going to continue doing what one of the staff members here said. I'm going to continue waisting my money on my own forums and open a site for commercial hacks. Yes, I'm going commercial since allot of people look down on that. But TheGeek said it best in his own post awhile back, and on the vBCast show as well. Everyone hates when people go commercial, and show know sign of support. Yet they support a commercial product such as vBulletin itself.

I'll continue to check in the coders forum from time to time. To help fellow coders out, but you will not see any more work produce and released my me on vBulletin.org. I also don't want my previous work to be trashed or deleted as allot of new members can still benefit from them. So long and farewell. Need to get ahold of me, well you can PM me or read my profile.

I'm sure this thread will eventually get closed, in hopes for it to get buried like the rest.

--
Best Regards,
Ken Iovino Jr

I hear ya. I'm close to putting on my shoes and taking a walk as well. It's tough to work in a climate where you have no control over anything. And releasing hacks is work.

Its a shame, that good coders feels like this.

I guess I'm too new here to know what this is all about. However, I do agree that vb.orgs rejection of all things commercial while being owned by a company that profits from our work, is bothersome to me.

I hope you reconsider, Ken, when and if things do die down. I'd hate to lose another friend and fellow coder from here. ;)

I cant believe things like this are happening. Jelsoft listen up, Coders are unhappy with your site, these are the coders that keep this site running, i suggest action is taken immediatley

Although I understand it can be frustrating when the staff don't agree with your suggestions, you cannot honestly expect the staff to just do as you say. We're not your servants. If you make a suggestion we don't particularly like, we'll tell you. What, would you rather us just ignore it? Honestly, you say we aren't professional, but I don't see how disagreeing with members and having a discussion (not argument) about some suggestions makes us unprofessional. This forum exists for that purpose. This forum isn't us doing whatever you say. On your forum, if you have a suggestion forum, do you just wave your magic wand to whatever your members suggest? Some things suggested here are unreasonable, unethical, not economical and downright nasty and would make the staff look unprofessional which is what you don'y want to see from us.

Sorry to lose you, and I don't want you to go because you are a good contributor to the forums, but complaining because the staff scrutinize suggestions and comments made in this forum, which is its purpose, isn't a smart thing to say. I know I can look harsh sometimes, but that's just the way my posts sometimes come across. As I've said in another thread, it doesn't mean anyone here has a personal vendetta against you. Paul M gets this scrutiny the most because he is the most.. er... aggressive with suggestions and makes a lot of them. Doesn't mean I'm picking on him, or anyone else. I think he expects it when he posts here.

If you open your own hack forum, you'll learn this the hard way. Some members don't look at this from our perspective.. what can you do?

(I'm posting this because obviously you wanted some discussion on the topic. I'm not looking to be abused, its better than the staff not commenting at all. But I'm doing this in a friendly manner and I hope nobody takes this the wrong way)

Since when am I not Staff? :cross-eyed:

I mean directly to what he said. ;)
S'ok Boofo, you're important to all of us. :p

Tony, I don't think you fully understand my first post. This has nothing to do with suggested features being turned down. The atmosphere around here just hasn't felt right for along time.

I hope you reconsider Ken :)

I too remember the "good old days" when Chen was around, I was a carefree spammer (well I still am sorta :p) and we all had a great laugh, coded, chatted and the community spirit was never better :)

Sadly, I agree this has taken a fall in recent times, but let me turn it around on you - You want the community spirit back, but every time one of those who remember how it was leaves, a bit of what is left leaves with them, reducing it more for the rest of us and not accomplishing what you hoped when you leave...

I'm fairly new at this Staff malarky, and if I have come accross in any negative way, I apologise - I am simply trying to do my job here, like the rest of the Staff :)

But please don't be so harsh on us - We have a stressful time, we have to be civil and hold our tongue and think of how to behave properly on so many different occasions - We are only human, we make mistakes, we speak out at times when its probably best not to, and we can't be blamed for it either :)

People like you are a value to this site, not only because you remember what MyChenQL is but also because you contribute to the community and resources this site has to offer - Please don't let our being human make you leave :)

Chris

Boy do I remember this! --> MyChenQL ;)

It's my claim to fame :D

Chris

I don't actually expect to be picked on :)

Whether you mean it or not, you cannot deny that you appear to have picked on a number of my posts recently and responded to them in a unfriendly manner - people have noticed this and a few have commented both in public and private - as I recall an administrator recently apologised about comments in a previous thread.

However, you state that it's not personal, and I'm happy to leave it at that. There is no benefit to anyone in a slanging match. :)

To Ken, I'm sorry you feel the need to leave, I hope that any disagreement between Tony and myself is not a contributing reason. :)

Who the hell would actually expect to be picked on?

Me. I have very low self esteem.

Stop making fun of me.

I said stop.

I for one am very greatful for all the hacks I've used. :)

Wow. Thats a hit for .org - you're talent is going to be missed by many around here.

I don't bother bobbing round much anymore. My work torturing small animals and selling commercial scripts (many feel that the later is actually more cruel) keeps me pretty busy and you summed it up pretty well: Its just not the same kind of place anymore.
There are fewer and fewer contributors and even less people that actually read instructions about free modifications before slapping the reply button about.

• The hack db will never see the light of day because it isn't important enough.
• The discussions of a commercial directory listing for customers is dead (wasn't it always?) because it isn't important enough (that is - unless its a freaking skin - but don't get me started there!).
• What customers gauge as important is not always what is viewed as important to the powers that be.

I think it would be a great idea for Jelsoft to host a think tank session with staff, coders and users on ways to improve the site. I also think it would be a good idea to have a couple PAID employees for .org. Volunteers only have so much time, patience and ability.

Good luck to you - you don't need it though with your skills though :)

Good Luck LiveWire.

I totally am with you on this. There is a line, and it gets crossed a lot. Coders are people, and yet I know stray dogs that get treated better (a metaphor, not a dig at anyone inparticular). It's only a matter of time before all the experienced exceptional coders are gone, and why?, because of the state of things.

I'm not saying anything else on the subject as I don't want to start a flame war, but I'm sure there are those who feel me (not literally!), and those who just think I'm either crazy or talking jibberish.

And those of us that know you are crazy ;) :D

Chris

I don't think Tony meant it in the literal sense. Any time a member makes a suggesting there is a chance that it will be criticized by members and/or staff; sometimes it is well received. It's like hitting the jackpot. There are no fixed numerical or time intervals. I do give credit, however, to Paul M and Tony for squashing any differences (they may have had) in a diplomatic manner. :)

Now there will always be at least two sides to any issue. How you may perceive things may hold true for you but not for the other. Try to look at things from outside the bubble and you may see the world differently.

After this phase of bringing out the concerns I'd like to see some solutions in this community rather than looking elsewhere (i.e., Jelsoft). If we're ever going to get a grip on things we need to start looking internally.

I agree with you Ken... It is the reason I have not been around here lately... Also the reason why vBCast hasn't released something recently. If you do not get treated with respect, you do not want to give respect.

I know that I am very new, but I really dislike this site but only visit because of the great contributions that have been made by people on this site.

It seems as lately more and more coders are simply releasing mods that benefit themselves and usually slap a "not supported" slogan on the hack. While this is all good, it really discourages people who honestly do not quite get code.

I have a couple hundred posts, but I do not understand the programming languages. I enjoy and am grateful for the codes released, but as a new user I see one of those great little hacks that does just what I wanted, but if I have an issue and a coder wishes not to support it, I simply get verbally slapped and told with 200 posts surely by now I would know how to work out the problem.

The attitude at this site is honestly one of the worst I've experienced in help, I'm really appalled with it compared to the great support one usually receives at vbulletin.com, most of the time when someone replies their, the responses are quick, but very friendly. I just don't get that here.

As much as vb.com refers users here, you would think they would take a MUCH more active role in the way things work around here.

I don't know I just wouldn't be too proud of this site if I was running it. :(

Sorry, this sites just never appealed to me but its resources and users are invaluable to vBulletin.

I have to say. sore attitudes are the reason that so many people don't like it here. Theres nothing stoping any one of you from taking time to attempt to fix the problems youself. Lots of people just complain but don't attacking take a part in the community. I understand not everyone wants to or has the ability to learn how to code, but that doesn't stop you from searching or helping others who might have been in the same boat as you. This is a community, everyone needs to do their own share and continbute what they can.

I also think that no only the users who come here to get hacks are to blame, but the coders who keep making it more and mroe easy and thus no one learns anything. The smart get smarter and the less smart never advance. "In the day" people were told to search and try fixing it themselfs. People came here expecting to have to do some dirty work in order to get their sites working.

This resource is here for people who wish to modify the way vBulletin works. Not a place to come and just get some hacks and be on your way. Its like a bittorrent site, people should just be able to leach, people should attempt to give back when possible.

We reffer people here when they _want_ a feature thats not in vBulletin, or they want it now and cannot wait for the next version. We cannot support third party code, but we try to make a place for people to work together and get the new features they want and desire. If you yourself are not willing to search and help others why should anyone give back to you?

Although the syntax sucks in your statement, it was well said, sir. ;)

Welp, I find myself here chiming in LOL. Anyhow. I just wanted to chime my .02 in. I love this site and what it's about. I CAN tell you that I can and will do WITHOUT the drama(atho, find myself typing in some drama). I completely appreciate the coders here and everything they have brought to me and my board...what the HECK would I do without them?? Even though I am not well versed coder, I am learning. YOU HAVE ALL BEEN HERE. The hacks here are worth a TON to me. I would pay for subscribing to this site if I had to. I pay by purchasing many vB lics and hitting the "install" button to support the coders here.

I see some super talented coders here. I wish there was a section here where the coders who "wanted to sell" their hacks could offer them. Take the vBgeek as an example. His codes are sweeeeet, so he then branched off the ORG and took it commercial. I gladly paid for a hack from his site. The support was friggen PIMP!

To sum it up, Livewire's hacks are unsurpassed. Please don't go, but if you do go and continue to code it up, please let us know where ;)

Thanks to all and that includes everyone(plus props to the staff) THE ORG.

You are a forgiving man, Boofo. :lick:

LiveWire,

You're very talented. I more than agree if you feel that you and your work is not getting the respect you deserve than it's not worth your effort to stay.

I can't help but feel that is because of what's happening in this specific forum. =/

Picked on was maybe the wrong word but you expect the staff to reply and not always says "Great idea!"

I am happy to admit that some of my posts to your suggestions can come across as unfriendly and I don't have an excuse for that. And I've never denied that, all I denied was that I had some hate towards you. Sometimes you suggest the same thing over and over, sometimes you don't realise why one of your suggestions is unreasonable when I can, there are lots of factors. I try my absolute best to be as professional and friendly as possible but there is always that line. But I'm glad you at least accept that they aren't personal attacks. I'm just doing my job around here, and it's better than suggestions going unreplied to.

Being professional isn't always about being nice and accepting abuse without doing anything back. To me, professional comes through suggestions just being listened to, discussed by the staff and with members and a final decision being posted. I hope people see that too. I don't see how this amounts to coders being treated like stray dogs. And this site looking professional isn't just about the staff but the members too. Fueling arguments, abusing staff etc. doesn't make this place look any better and it doesn't make the atmosphere any friendlier. If members feel the atmosphere around here isn't as good as it used to be, you guys will need to do the work too to make it a better place, because its negative attitudes and threads like this which ruin it.

Very unfortunate to see such a great coder leave... you will be missed.

Great coders like LiveWire, PaulM, and The Geek (just to name a few) are the lifes blood of this site. Whether vB realizes it or not, it's all the great add-on hacks that keeps people coming back here and makes vB such an attractive package. The hacks at this site were 60-70% of the reason why this customer chose to give vB my hard earned money instead of Invision. Without good coders here this site will just fade away over time. Oh sure this site is 'relatively' strong now, but that's because there are still 'a few' good coders left here. What happens when there is only one or two mediocre coders here? Lets face it, we come here for the good add-on hacks, not tea and cookies. Unfortunately for this site, vB, and the vB community we lost a really great coder when LiveWire left. I think that vB shoots themself in the foot whenever they give great coders like LiveWire reasons to leave. I for one will miss his incredible hacks, not only because I know he must have invested a lot of time in designing them, but also because hacks aside, I know that LiveWire is a really good person. It's a sad day here at vB.org, and they are losing a lot more than just a really good coder :(

I'm not much for tea but I'm definitely in for the cookies. :classic:

Well fortunately for you your computer probably has plenty of them ;)

They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks.

Not to harp specificly on LiveWire, PAul, or The Geek. But I could possibly say that about most any coder here. One coder does not make or break this site, the entire community does. If EVERY signle person on this forum up and left, it'd be a differnt story. But they arn't and won't so I'd rather not worry about it.

Is it sad? Sure, but things will move on and people will get on with their lifes. Anyone who leaves this site for whatever reason should do so and not need to make a post about it.

That is life!!

If you take any community (or company) you will see that there will always be a few that (seem to) stick above the others. But in time these people will always change, some go, new ones stand up.

You could have made this same statement a few years ago, just changes a couple of names, nothing special going on here.

TonyG,

Just picked up on your point about being professional, it is not deemed professional to be nasty and give abuse back just because you receive it. Being a professional does not mean sinking yourself to the same level. Maybe you should look up being professional in a dictionary.

Believe it or not, we Staff are actually humans, too, which means we do make mistakes and sometimes let our emotions cloud an issue we are trying to address. (Takes long breath). I agree, that does not make any adverse actions we take right, but understanding is a 2-way street that we both must accept if we are going to get along in the community. ;)

I think after spending 4 years here, releasing over 30 hacks, which could take someone hours, weeks, or even months deserves the right to state there opions to the rest of the community, and post a farewell thread if they feel the need to. To be honest, any member who feels the need to leave should have the option to create a post about it. You welcome introduction threads here, why not welcome farewell threads?

Maybe I'm just taking your post out of content, but the fact of the matter is. Jelsoft does not recognize coders for the great work they do. Alot of features you see in the vBulletin package now, came from hardcore coders from the past. I think they aleast deserve a thanks or some form of credit where credit is due. Almost every coder here will thank other coders in there threads when they help them out, or point to the original idea that was requested to show that the idea was taken from so and so. Coders give more respect to fellow coders alike then Jelsofts development and managment team does. Thats where the main problem lies.

If coders where to be treated as an aset to this site, then I'm sure alot of us wouldn't have quit.

emphasis added

maybe i don't have the right to respond but this thread is important

if you click quick links and then unanswered threads.you will get 20 pages ..each page with 20 posts....and there might be more.

that is another sphere than from the past..

not to be rude to staff here...they are great.....but livewire has a point and one fact is for sure....if it was not for the hacks and addons..vbulletin would not be so popular..

some compromise is necessary from both parts...staff and coders