Question To Vbulletin.org Majority
 

This is a question to the average vbulletin webmaster. Over in the coder's section, we've been discussing whether or not it's for the benefit of the user to have less when installing a modification (IE no template or file edits and a quick install, or having to learn how to edit and dealing with that).

What do you guys think?

Just give me a working modification with a clean install, no template or file edits needed.
or
I prefer a learning experience using information given and trial and erorr in order to learn more.

Feel free to express your opinion in your post as well.

LOL I was just thinking about this today...how odd!

I voted to just give me a working modification with a clean install, no template or file edits needed.

BUT, I am torn on this because I really want to learn all of this, but sometimes its frustrating because I can't figure things out being a noob and sometimes it takes a while for questions to be answered. So, now I try to just install things that takes little to no time at all.

I wish you would have put an option #3 for on the fence LOL

I was going to do that now for you. However, i do not have the permission to do so at the moment. Perhaps a mod can do that for you :p

Also, have you tried reading mods on your own and doing trial and error to learn?

Like that?

Show off :p

I was thinking of doing that, but I would be afraid I would just detroy everything in there LOL I might get brave enough one day ;)

Thanks for adding it after I vote :p

Hehe. Give boofo a break, he's old! (hehe jk :p)

Don't be scared, set up a test forum if you'd like and just mess around with hacks and stuff. Find a hack you like but think you can improve, and go for it!

Since there has been a rash of non-working hacks released that install via the plugin system with no problems, I would opt for the template hacks. At least then I have some place to start looking for why it is not working.

So, if the hack actually works well right out of the box, I guess a plugin is nice, but now everyone and their mothers are releasing "products".

Thanks! I might just try ;)

May i ask what you voted for?

Let me know how it goes.

Learning experience is probably needed so that when problems occur, if they do, they have some idea of where to go or what to do.

My last upgrade: VB3.5.0 to VB3.5.4
This sucks :D

I try and use "Auto" as much as I can to stop reinstall of template edits after a VBCORE upgrade. I hate to re-edit templates on hacks installed because of a needed "revert" of a templates.

K.I.S.S. :cool:

[high]* Zachariah goes back to code cave.[/high]

Leaaaaaaaarning Experience!

Hehe. I'm guessing you voted for "Just give me a working modification with a clean install, no template or file edits needed."?

Indeed. You never learn how to get up unless you fall down.

Not sure.

hehe...ain't that the truth! You ought to try doing it for over 40 skins each time vb upgrades O_o

That can't be to fun!

I prefer a learning experience using information given and trial and erorr in order to learn more

Doing stuff like that gives me a greater sense of accomplishment. I love adding hacks,template edits, and doing file edits. It helps me to learn. When something goes wrong I can generally find out what's wrong and fix it. I don't want to burden the coder of the hack I need help with. :D

This is actually misleading ... you should explain in detail so that everyone knows the pros and cons..
what he means here is that a plugin is created (for a product) that will "search and replace" a specific string within a template so that you do not have to do manual template edits

PROS:

1. You will not have to do any edits - just upload the product xml file and you are finished.
2. Coder's don't have to worry about supporting issues such as template editing.

CONS:

1. Coder is assuming you're using a default vbulletin style (at the extreme level, a style that has been modified slightly).
2. Coder is assuming that you will not add a product that will clash with their product. Coder is assuming you will take care of this problem on your own if this does happen.
3. Each time "search and replace" has to run it will use cpu resources -- this will happen each time templates have to be cached. Why use resources when they could be avoided?
4. More Plugins are required to do such edits ... do the math ... if you have about 100 products installed that's 100 more plugins that are not needed (increase memory usage).
5. Creating / Adding a new custom design will take longer (increase cost)
   • Templates are not edited directly; so, you will NOT be able to see the changes on your style/template ... all changes are done at run-time when templates are cached
   • A designer will now need to know how to edit the plugin for each product if necessary. Do they know how to edit XML files or PHP? If not, you will need to hire someone that does.
6. One product's "search and replace" could hurt how another product is displayed or worst how the entire site is displayed.
   • Searching for the cause of problem will take longer as you now have to look into the plugin not the template. And, if you don't know XML/PHP ... you may need to hire someone who does. (increase cost)

As you might have guessed already, I prefer NOT to use the "search and replace" method. Yes, it may mean that I will get the usual template edit questions. But, at least I know I will not be the cause of any of your troubles later on.

For the adminsitrator (non-coders) who prefer the "search and replace" method ... you will be better off doing it yourself or paying someone to do the manual template edits than to pay someone to find the cause of your troubles. Which do you think will cost more in the long run?

Right now, there are only a handful of products that use the "search and replace" so you may not encounter problems as often. However, this number will only increase in time. Hence, so will your problems.

Information provided here is just to provide you with more information so that you can come up with your own conclusions.

With that said, I do understand why coders would want to use the "search and replace" method. At times, I feel like using it myself. :)
0

One more for the "Learning"! :classic:

Either way you frame the questions/options, however, it's the end result that matters most in a mod.

The problems will only increase as more and more coders use the "search and replace" method ... I recommend that you request all coders to have 2 versions. This way you know where the edits are.

Theoretically, if the search and replace method doesn't work, neither will instructions due to the fact that the instructions will ask to locate the same thing that the search in replace does. If one doesn't work without a hastle, then the other one won't work without a hastle.

All the times I've used search and replace has been with the $navbar variable. That is pretty safe.

After reading Princeton's post, though, he brought some things up I hadn't thought about before. I might do some reconsidering on the search and replace idea (unless it has to do with $navbar, then I'm going for it! :p). ;)

Lordy, after a year of mod'ing a phpBB2 board I was nearly at a loss on how these fancy schmancy mods for vB worked.... wanted to do a simple change to a template and it took me a while to figure out how to even get to them, lol.... was so used to going into my site file directory and opening them there.

But I guess even with the plug-ins I'd prefer a txt file that actually tells me the changes that are being made, how else can I learn or figure out what the problem is if there is one? Recently did an import of a product that had a snafu in it, was supposed to create a field in two tables in my vB database, but it didn't... if I hadn't had all that phpBB experience I wouldn't have had a clue as to where to even look for where to fix it from the error message I was getting. would also be helpful if in the thread that in the description of the product/plug-in if there are any 'known' conflicts with others that they could be listed.

But when it gets down to the poll above I guess I'll have to go with the 'learning experience' choice

I'm sure a large percentage of users who prefer plugin mods never bother to look inside the .XML files and study the routines. I too appreciate template edits because it forces you to look at the codes. I come from UBB where editing .pl and .cgi files were expected and with the experience it's helped me grasp vB's structure. There's a great satisfaction that comes from learning.

With that said it's all good either way.

Once again, too much worrying about "resources". The resources used by a simple search and replace are miniscule compared to the overall resources used to generate any vb page. As for saying they add up with 100 hacks - anyone with that many hacks should expect problems, way too many ......

that "miniscule" may not worry you much because you have some knowledge on working/running a server ... you probably have direct access to it - do you think everyone else does?

that "miniscule" may be fine for someone who knows what's "under the hood" ... do you think everyone else understand what's going on?

that "miniscule" may be fine for someone who knows the difference between a "good" script and "bad" script ... do you think everyone has this knowledge?

that "miniscule" may be the cause of someone's problem down the road

yea -- ok ... and, you still don't see how "instructions" would be helpful?

I'm definately against all this automated installs.

I learnt through doing it myself, and I didn't know a thing about html or php when I first started using vB. In fact I was one of those admins who didn't know what 'forum root', 'ftp', 'upload', etc meant.

Also, I've started experiencing more and more problems with my template mods after the automated stuff has some in as there is no indication in the style manager about other things being there and so this is affecting placement of codes.

Finally, if everyone has to start doing two sets of instructions then we are going back to the HTL days IMO and that was a nightmare, especially for people who didn't understand or know about the HTL.

Keep it simple, use manual template edits.

Agreed, but at least if you know a bit about vB's template structure then you can find similar sections and take it from there.

Sorry but that's just baseless scaremongering and it is completely irrelevant whether someone knows about their server or not. The "resouces" used by search and replace are so small I doubt you could actually measure them - and your server would already need to be on the edge of imminent collapse for them to ever cause a problem - in which case you are already in big trouble anyway.

As far as the whole server situation, i agree that it is a bit irrelevant and the plugins used to perform a search and replace are beyond small.

As for the instructions, the only way that they would be more useful than a search and replace is if the user knows the template system and can look for something similar to the instruction like peter said. However, they can easily do the same thing by editing the plugin and changing the search string.

It's a lot easier to find a suitable place to insert the edit if you have it in a readme file as a manual edit than having to start trying to figure out which of the plugins has controlled the template edits then have to work with the plugins and templates to find something to maryr up enough to get the desired effect.

This poll is scewed because it has the votes of people that hack vBulletin. It is not a good representation of "user" opinion.

It's actually quite close, just like i thought it'd be.

It's quite close because all of us coders like to tinker and we voted. It is in no way a indicator of how the "general user" feels.

Perhaps they can make it so that we can see who voted or the mods can post a lit that they can update every so often?

Hehe.

it's not irrelevant ... my point is ... not everyone has the knowledge you have; unlike you, most people will have to pay someone to fix their problem