Proposal: The vBulletin.org Commercial Services and Addons Directory.
 

Over time, websites evolve to serve their members. Lately there has been a lot of heated discussion about commercial hacks and addons for vBulletin and this site. Currently they are not allowed in the forums but a good portion of the membership would like to see them here according to recent polls. What I would like to propose is an equitable solution that hopefully addresses the major issues.

Several solutions have been proposed from new sites, commercial forums, advertising on different pages and a directory. After discussion with the Jelsoft Staff, we have decided that a Directory is probably the best course of action. This satisfies two things. First, the forums on this site will be reserved for free and colloborative development. Second, the directory will be self-contained within vBulletin.org and use its permission system as well as the vBulletin Licensing system. This means we can deny complete access to non-licensed members and those advertisers would be known vBulletin users.

The Directory will allow people to advertise their commercial add-ons and hacks to the tens of thousands of vBulletin customers. It will give those same customers a centralized location to find these resources. In addition, links can be purchased by style designers, webmasters, and other service providers so people can have easy access to the resources they need for the best community sites on the Internet.

This will be a main section of the site and any customer will be able to participate. The links will be purchased for a moderate fee but that has not been determined yet. The directory will be moderated by myself and vBulletin.org staff and there will be guidelines for submission. I also want to institute ways for people to get links in the directory through community involvement on this site. Things that would allow this would be free of charge addon releases and template/style modifications released.

This however is not going to be implemented roughshod over the community. We want your feedback. We want to make a solution that everyone can live with and support as part of the community. In order to do that, I want to hear your concerns and comments. For that purpose I open this up for townhall discussion. In this discussion, you will be able to address the proposal directly according to the following rules:

Proposal Discussion Rules:

1. You may post one reply to address the proposal. If I update the proposal or post within the thread, then the count starts over.
2. You may not address other community members at this time. Keep it on topic and directed to the proposal.
3. Any multiple posts will be deleted.
4. You are to remain civil at all times.
5. There will be no deviation from these rules.

Let me hear your comments.. Make sure they are thought out and clear, you only get one chance at this. This thread will remain open until January 1st, 2006. That gives you about 3 weeks to make your comments.

I'm glad the staff is doing something official and listening to us.

As for me I'm for it. This will not discourage free hacks as many people just starting out will release hacks for free. Also since the hacks are paid for you wil lbe getting priority support or the hack won't survive. Overall the end user wins. We'll see paid modificatins get better so they can survive sicne people are now more aware of other paid scripts.

People who do this for a hobby will still do it for free s othey aren't bound by legialities and such when they don't feel like helping.

There, first post sicne everyone seems to be scared to break the ice. And yes I sort of wrote this from the perspective that it is now in effect, however, I know it is not.

EDIT:: @Wayne, for clarity, I see you have edited your post since I posted (though I have nothing else to add. Just speaking hypothetically) am I allowed to post again?

EDIT 2:: Ignore first edit, I misread the times. But anyways, I suppose an official answer should stil lbe given to keep it fro mgetting used in the future for either side, though I'm pretty sure the common sense answer will be "no, it does not count".

I think it sounds really great BUT.

I would advise you all run this by your lawyers if you have not already. The fact that revenue will be made off these listings may cause a liability on the end of Jelsoft for the content of those listings. Although I would personally never hold anyone here responsible for any damage caused by an outside vendor found in your listings, this world has people in it that would.:( Nothing wrong with playing it safe.

Who would of thought someone would need to be warned that Mcdonald's coffee is served hot..... :ermm:

With that said I cant wait to see this implemented. I know there has to be some mods out there I dont know about that I could use.:)

Thanks!

i agree with what this guy said, you would have a problem if say, a hack came out for $30 bucks for v 3.5.2

everythings fine til 3.5.4 when the hack stops working and the creator has left the building you know, i mean people leave, people die, people just whatever

once you sart dealing with money, and these are not donations, these are cash on the barel for product, you have a responsibility i doubt you want to have

specially since jelsoft isnt the one being paid

---------

i think donations are better, cuz you are not buying the product you are just making a donation to the cause, also what realy happens to any good hack sbeing made, they will all become retail, yes some newer hack-makers will release free, but the good ones will most likly all go retail

I think that the proposal seems fair and seems to address many of the key points I've read during various discussions on the topic.

Now on a seperate but somewhat related topic, I remember reading about a new "hack repository" being introduced here on vb.org to help organize the many hacks and styles that have been released here. Can you elaborate on how this might tie into the above "link directory"?

While I am not sure how the directory will work, I know that I as a consumer would like the option of seeing whats available both for free and commerically (or either or given a users specific preference).

About the liability.

One could imagine that besides a set of rules for submission, there will also be a set of rules for participation/download. vBulletin.org is a directory, listing the resources in exchange for a fee. If you use a resource this is not in relation to the web site at all. The author is responsible for his resource and I think people can agree upon the recommendation to always make a backup prior to making changes to their community. And are open to accept that vBulletin.org can not be held responsible for any damage to or data loss off ..

If I find through Google, and download a word document that has a macro virus in it, and my system gets screwed up, surely I can't hold Google responsible.

Anyway, I think we can assume there will be a paragraph stating that we're only responsible for displaying the links. And how we will handle disputes.

I can imagine the reviewers of the links will have the rights to modify, move or delete any links at any time for any reason. As they're the owners of the site. This to protect vBulletin.org in case of disputes, or if we find out someone posted resources that cause damage (like a hack backdoor).

(Am I making any sense here? haha) (back to my coffee)

This is great news actually. Till i saw the first discussion i wanted something like this to happen because as a customer i would like to see all paid additions on one site. This may help us to choose which hack to purchase or not. I just ask couple suggestions.
If there will be a link directory then ,
* Members may be able to rate the scripts.
* Members may be able to reply to scripts threads about their opinions.
* No support post shall be allowed within the threads.
* In order to purchase a link from directory the coder must release some number of free hacks to vb.org . It might be any version for vbulletin but the main point is the coder actually helped vb.org previously.

Don't like the idea...

Intead of releasing hacks to the public that are free, they will turn into ones that you have to purchase.

First, I want to thank you for keeping us within the "loop". I'm just speaking for myself but it makes me feel more of an "insider" than an "outsider". (I hope this continues.)

Second, I think you made the best choice. I always said a DIRECTORY would be the best solution.

1. It will increase traffic especially if the section is SEO.
   1. Will increase sales
   2. Will increase membership
   3. Will increase participation
   4. Will increase free available addons
2. It decreases liability.
3. Less man-power vs. the other mentioned solutions
4. It offers MORE to all vBulletin owners.

Regarding Submissions

• Allow submission of logo - great for branding (ADVERTISEMENT)
• Payments should be on an annual basis.
  1. Ensures dead businesses are removed
  2. Increases revenue
• Offer per link (ala kart) and membership (no limit on links)
• Price wise - it should be high enough so that it discourages submissions from EVERYONE; but, low enough to be competitive.
• It would be great if customers could sort links via (state/country) ... eg. used as a risk factor (some people would rather do business within a specific area)
• Allow dynamic urls for tracking purpose
• Display POPULAR/HOT based on hits
• Display a RATING - based on a 1-5 stars rating
• Do NOT allow commenting - that could get ugly; and, it may require man-power

With that said..

Free addons will never decline..

• A good business person will continue adding free addons
  • It's the best way to advertise a business.
  • It's the best way to create good karma.
  • It's the best way to build a reputation.

Businesses come and go..
The business environment is very competitive. At any time, a business could close down ... no one can control the success of a business.

• It's the customer's responsibilities to "shop" for the best business.

Create a usable interface...

Get feedback from a handful of people to ensure it's success. PLEASE PLEASE ... DO NOT HAVE ONLY STAFF/CODERS REVIEWING THE INTERFACE.

Clarify some things here:

1) There is no liability. We will not be hosting these commercial addons on this site. The links will be links to the Author's webpage. There is no more liability for a dead link than there is for Google or Yahoo having dead links in their directory.

2) Fees will be available on a monthly and yearly basis. The exact fees haven't been determined yet. All income earned will go to benefit this site, either for additional software needed over the long term or to support the staff.

3) There is no proof that commercial software will eliminate free of charge addons. In fact software markets suggest the exact opposite is happening in the world. Commercial Offerings are becoming scarcer as companies merge or drop products while free of charge software is becoming more prevalent. This is not a trend but something that can be traced over the last 20 years. There is a place for both, even addons in both commercial and free of charge that do the same thing by different authors. Look at phpBB. It is successful and was originally released after vBulletin. Not to mention other free forum systems out there.

And this resets the comments.

You mention the license system? does this mean that only registered members will be able to see?

Ok my opinion on addition to the directory should be a level of community involvement, i.e they must be a regular poster and must have released at least one hack for three for the current vBulletin version. i like your idea about discounts for more active hackers, that could perhaps be reduced if they're a master coder or something.

all in all it's great news, thank you :)

what wouldn't have been a bad idea thinking about it would've been to run the directory on a third party site and add that to the links at the bottom of the forum index and depending on how much traffic that directory got, integrate it here.

Good to see this thread! As soon as the rates are listed I'll be putting it into the advertisting budget. ;)

The only suggestion I would have is to *not* do a rating type system. If one is done what will happen is that it'll turn into a mess with people trashing products they don't like (because they prefer something else) or even competitors trying to make their competition look bad. Taking a cue from Microsoft & other companies that list 3rd party vendors they simply provide a listing and let the customers decide on their own.

Why would someone pay to be in a closed directory that only vBulletin owners can see and on a resource that not all vBulletin users access?

Why would the directory be closed? Does Jelsoft not think that quality add-ons could increase sales? But if the add-ons are secret, how would perspective customers know of the things they can do to enhance their vB forums?

This is the most rediculous attempt to take advertising money I've ever heard.

BTW, What's in it for those of us that release and fix hacks at or above the rate of some moderators? I'm not knocking moderators, I'm bringing up the so called rewards that come with being an active helpful member. I've heard them mentioned many many times, but have not seen this reward. Am I supposed to have a good feeling in my belly or something?

Fantastic to see this thread and its contents. The proposal so far seems very logical, fair and balanced.

I would prefer some type of rating system, however I easily concede that unless thought through it could be possibly twisted. However Ratings help one to get an insight into whether the product is well supported, decent value, etc... and can be used as a very constructive tool for customers. That said, I do agree that comments can get messy and ugly.

I think the directory would be best categorized by functionality. Each author can submit where applicable. A log would be good, product name, description and a link, however if the person viewing is not a licensed vB user, redirect them to a permission denied page.

I also think that having the author be able to update the version number a last updated information could be useful (could be really useful to keep a browsable history of this information). Not a big deal - just thinking aloud :)

I hope that custom programmers and style makers will also contribute to the directory, thereby making it an easy resource for customers to find the people they are after.

Not sure I like the fee part.

Personally - and I know this wont be popular with some of you, but i think there should be a free 'lite' version of the software before being allowed to advertise it.

-or-

Make it free for everyone to post a vB related product or service -

What about the little guy who just makes a few skins? I dont know what you plan to charge but maybe they cant afford it. They wold be closed out of the loop entirely.

Where do lines get drawn? What about signatures? Would The Geek not be allowed to advertise in his sig? or only if he bought an ad? What if he's advertising his vB forum, which is only for pupose of support of his product? If he is allowed to have his ad in his sig, then why buy the ad?

Would this be only for vB hacks? What about a hack that doesnt require vb to operate such as photopost (before they got vbgallery) - What about custom coders? would they have to pay to advertise too? If they're allowed, what about people offering to install vb for less then jelsoft charges?

Seems to me there are ALOT of questions.

Why not JUST do this --

Leave things as they are - except - make a forum where anyone can post anything about a vb related product or service they're offering. Just like the regular hacks. One thread per product / service. List in the description of the forum that vB and vB.org do not endorse anything listed there, and then call it a day.

I dont sell anything, so This doesnt really apply to me. Just pointing out a few thoughts.....

.

I don't like the idea of paid hacks on vb.org itself so this does seem a reasonable compromise. However, I don't understand why only licenced members will be able to view it (unless i've misunderstood) - surely you want potential buyers to see what is on offer ?


This section bothers me ;

What exactly does that last bit mean - that you are going to share the "profits" out to the vb.org staff ? If so then this completely removes my support for this proposal. Firstly, the same staff will be moderating the links, and so will have a persoanl gain bias to decisions, and secondly I do not believe that the staff (who are supposed to be volunteers) should be making personal profit from this site when the rest of us, who still release free hacks for all, get no benefit.

I think it's a really bad idea. vBulletin.org should continue to encourage community development projects, add-ons and innovations for the software free-of-charge. The short-term gains you make from charging software developers for the right to list paid-for add-ons and projects could be wiped out if suddenly all the 'good stuff' is shut out and requires extra payments. Suddenly subsequent versions of vBulletin become less attractive when there's a heap of hacks and add-ons that each require additional sums of money to be installed and properly licensed.

It's human nature for people to want to cash in on their ideas and work. And I certainly couldn't blame anyone for wanting to get paid for their efforts - but if they choose to go down that route, it should be done outside of vbulletin.org IMHO. The moment you start giving people the means to use this medium to sell their work you create an irresistable marketplace for many that will stifle the really good thing you have going on..... the community spirit that many of Jelsoft's rivals would love to have backing their own products.

Why risk breaking something that has worked so incredibly well for a number of years?

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to voice our opinions.

I believe that it would be a shame to see vBulletin.org heading towards supporting commercial modifications in such a way. I can forsee many people placing charges on their free modifications. I see that you disagree with this, but ask why they do code for free here. One of those reasons is due to the fact that it is hard to gain a good reputation/profile on the WWW without making your name and skills known elsewhere.

I do think, however, that coders should be fairly rewarded for their input. I, as do many, appreciate their time and efforts that go in to making the modifications that we all use. I think that the best way to do this is through unenforced donations.

Maybe the best way to go would be to encourage people to donate to the current coders here, rather than drawing in commercial enterprises and the likes. Support those who are part of the community here, and not those that are just interested in making money.

Thank you for resetting as I was wanting to reply :).

I think its a good idea to charge as that will make sure those listing are kept up to date by the authors. Who would pay to have a dead link listed. Good idea!

The only reason I said anything is that I like this site and dont want anything to happen to it because of something stupid.

The problem with the google analogy is that its a little off. Now lets say that you paid google some money for google earth software. Then you went to google's site and they had a listing of really cool add ons that you could buy. So you decide to buy an add on and something goes wrong. Now things go wrong all the time and normally its because instructions are not followed correctly. Anyway, you buy this add on for your google software and it totally crashs the software you bought from google. No matter what you do, you cant get the software from google to work anymore and their tech support just refers you to the owner of the add on. Well I can tell you that someone somewhere is gonna consult a lawyer about the software they paid and normally when someone decides to sue they go after all parties involved. Being that there are people that are making money off their sites using this software even increases this possibility.

Now the situation here is a little different as this is considered a third party site from Jelsoft, HOWEVER, this directory listing system is being implemented at least in principal by Vbulletin employees. That makes the above more applicable.

If you all get together with your lawyer(s) and just make sure that the warning given to the user previous to use is ironclad then I dont see there being any problems of liability. That is exactly what I would do. :) I keep a lawyer on staff just for ths kind of stuff. ;)

I love this offer and would be apart of it as soon as it was avaiable, but I don't agree that the staff here should profit off of it.

I agree with everything Princeton has to say, and also agree with everything Peterska2 has to say later in this thread. I believe the best solution would be to open a new domain with a new staff, dedicated members that are here on vB.org, or vB.com that help out more often then others.

That way you have two different atmosphere in the air; One for free hack modifications and another for paid modifications. This should also keep things much more orginized. Give the users who will pay for this service the oppurntunity to link there website for there modifacation, also a link that will point to a specific thread at the offical domain that will host this directory. When they submit the ad, it could auto start a specific threadid. Just some quick thoughts that I wanted to share. I hope my suggestions are not overlooked as well as everyone else who has posted in this thread.

Although im only allowed one post ill try and keep it short and sweet. Its great that you guys are moving forward with your thinking. Keeping the community upto date with all resources on one site is great to see and keeps me in love with vbulletin and its addons. However i dont understand the idea of charging a uneeded fee; yes a fee to cover costs of the server but just because there profiting i dont think its fair or noble to benefit yourselfs which will only lead to increased prices by the hack authors.

I completely agree with the proposal :)

First, I am a vB user and will in all probability never be a developer/coder--so that's my POV.

1. I am in favor paid modifications being listed here
2. I hope that these modifications will be listed in a way that integrates with the much-anticipated "hack database" so that a search here returns both free and paid entries
3. I have no problem with the staff here getting some of the proceeds--which I know from experience will amount to no more than beer money--from any paid listing. They put in many hours of work with little compensation.
4. a listing method that allowed for user feedback (such as "this modification work great, but it is fussy to install." or "this feature does not work as well as one would expect") would be most useful to me, and I fear if listings are paid, this would be precluded.
5. I know user feedback can be abused, but I feel it would be better to deal with the abuse when/if it happens than to not have the mechanism

So long as you keep these advertisers from inundating the main forums and turning what is supposed to be a community into a shopping mall...

The line is crossed/redrawn/fuzzy as it is, commercialization of this place would really dishearten me.

Keep their paid services in a separate section where if a user wants to seek out a paid service - they have the area to look for one... But don't allow the tripe find its way into the regular forums by letting it become a free for all once a hack author pays for the advertising rights. We've already seen the results of that, it never ends up working out to the advantage of anyone.

I still prefer a separate site, linked to from vb.org, just like you do with these sites:
Just add vbservices.com to the list, and end of story. All vb.org members will see it on the main forum home, and no longer need to search.

Having paid hacks on the same site as free hacks will add a lot of crap and flame wars, and just add a lot of bad blood, as proven from recent incidents. Yes, there some great commercial hack authors who play by the rules (like the Geek), but the record isn't that good with most, and they do cause a bad stink here.

But, if you guys go ahead with this, you'll probably want to do a lot of fine print on the details. Example: since many of the paid hack authors claim that you get what you paid for, and their stuff is superior, while free hacks are crap, then free hacks authors should have the option of turning their hacks into paid hacks, and see if they get members willing to pay for them than the commercial ones. Chances are they'll out-sell commercial hacks.

I like the directory idea. Probably the best solution.
One thing I don't like about the proposal is paying for a link. While this will more than likely entice me to release mods I wouldn't release for free because of the time it would take to support them for free I wouldn't pay to have a link to them. I don't think Jelsoft should profit from the mod authors work.
If you do go to a pay system to list mods then I have a couple questions.
How long will the link be for? Life of the mod? Until the author stops supporting it?
What will be the criteria for which link is listed first if there are 2 or more similiar mods?

I don't think adding another site into the mix is a good idea. We all know how it turned out with vbulletintemplates.com.

I wouldn't change anything.

Everything is perfect and people love this.

I think that perhaps instead of having a directory with links to individual mods you should have a directory of providers. AWS brought up a good point about the problem of their being multiple similar mods. If you just have a listing of providers you would avoid that issue and I guess in a sense even the playing field. Other than that I like the entire idea - Paying to be listed is definately a necessity to keep the uncommited from trying to make a quick buck and it also will cover the additional bandwidth used to host the directory.

I am liking this proposal a lot. I would love to see hotscripts.com look alike directory solely dedicated to vbulletin on vb.org. Best of Luck. :)

read it a couple of times and really don`t get this

Is this saying that the paid section will be the main section??? That I don`t agree with, however I may have just read it in the wrong way.

I do, in part agree with the principle behind this, in the respect of people being able to see from one area what is available, however I would rather see what was suggested above and see a seperate site form for this purpose. VBservices I believe was the example given ...... It just adds another link to the kinda VBring ya have going already with vbulletin.com, .org, and germany. Bringing it to this site in my eyes will only take away what in my eyes is what Vbulletin.org is all about, and that is the contributing community developer. I do not code in php however do a lot of visual basic and sql, so know the hours that can be put into coding, and I would like to code for the community (once I have learnt enough), not only to give back what I have got out of VB.org, but to continue the community spirit in which I enjoy on here.

My views and assessment of the commercial products directory.

I have taken each paragraph and addressed it in turn so it is rather long I'm afraid. I hope that you find it informative.

All quotes are Wayne Luke.

1. While a directory is a good idea in principal, I don't believe the right place for it is here at vB.org as I feel that it will take away from the environment of generosity that has become a central part of vB.org. By this I mean that a lot of the more talented coders will gradually move to paid releases only. This will then leave the average user with either nothing to install, or just things of poor quality done by the more mediocre coders. I actually include myself in that catagory as I know that I will probably never be able to release the major mods that could go as paid for releases.
2. How exactly would the licencing system be used with regards to this? If it is to be used like the current system where any Tom, Steve or Harry can view the releases but not access the downloads or attachements nor post in that section, then this could possibly be a tool for encouraging people to purchase vBulletin because of the range of modifications available. However, if all access is denied to non-licenced users then how will potential customers be able to find out what is available? If you link the possibility of the free releases declining steadily in number with the complete lockout of the paid for modifications for non-licenced users, then this will equal going to a rival software as it will appear that vBulletin modifications are few in number and of potentially poor quality.
3. As someone who was happily running a free forums software for a while before coming to vB, I must point out that one of the reasons that I came to vB was the flexability of the software and the ability to easily modify it using the wide range of mods available which I viewed repeatedly before deciding to make my purchase. Had this not been the case, then I would probably have stuck with the rival software as it did the job and has modifications available for it, even though they are more difficult to implement. For low traffic sites like mine, paid for software is a luxary that we can't really afford and so potentially going to a majority of paid for modifications will just mean that I either have to revert to a stock version or go elsewhere for my software needs as I will simply be priced out of the market.

1. Yes, I agree that it will make it easier to find the paid releases as they will all be in one place, but how many vBulletin users actually come to vB.org? Probably less than 25% on a regular basis (working on one visit every 6 months being regular). Would a link to the directory be placed on vB.com? Probably not, as that would make it look like these commercial releases are supported by Jelsoft.
2. links can be purchased by style designers, webmasters, and other service providers. This reads as though Tom, Steve or Harry could purchase a link to point to anything. It could be used to link to somewhere where they say "Webmaster available for hire. For more details contact Harry via email at harry@tomsteveandharry.com" Yes this isn't what you mean, but on paragraph by paragraph analysis this is how it reads. And what sort of things would come under "other service providers"? That could be anything from the sublime to the ridiculous (I had a couple of examples but decided not to use them due to the U rating of the site).

1. Surely it should be a minor section of the site and not a main one? Making it a main section will potentially take the emphasis away from the free releases and helpful community that we have here and instead place this all on the commercial products and services.
2. Purchasing the links is a sensible idea. However, will this then mean that to have a link in your signature, a homepage URL, or post your link as a live demo of a modification you have to purchase this right? Or do you just have to purchase it to go into the directory? If you have purchased a link for in the directory, does this then mean that you can put your commercial link in your signature or elsewhere on the site?
3. Regarding the moderation of the directory, there is the potential for staff members to misuse this facilty and deny applications from people who they personally dislike, or apply some sort of discount to those who they do like. I'm not saying that any of the current staff members would do this, only that there is the potential for abuse of the system.
4. With the guidelines for submission, would they cover the little things like demos must be available, as well as the major things like this must be supported with a response time of less than 24 hours while the link is active in the directory? The last thing that Jelsoft and vB.org need is a directory of unsupported commercial products as this will potentially lead to a lot of negative postings here at vB.org as well as potentially at vB.com. This in turn could potentially drive away potential customers of the vBulletin software.
5. To get a FOC link I'm assuming that someone with little or no coding experience could potentially just rumble up a couple of totally useless releases and then because they have released something could potentially then be able to use the directory to increase their traffic. What about if there is a condition placed on getting a FOC link of having x posts at vB.org and vB.com? Potentially this could lead to a lot of spamming of both sites. You would be amazed just how many posts you can run up just by going through every single release and saying 'nice work' or 'don't think I'll use this one'. Does anyone really want to run the risk of the site be potentially over run by short-term spammers who just want to get a FOC link in the directory?

1. However, who do you sue if you purchase a kettle from your supermarket and the water leaks and scolds you? Do you sue the manufactor for making a defective product? Or do you sue the retailer for allowing a defective product to be sold? Probably both. Sufficient legal advice must be sought before embarking on this as there will always be the disgruntaled customer who will come back at Jelsoft for allowing a defective product to be sold through their site. What would happen in the instance of a commercial product being purchased and installed and causing a problem with the vBulletin software, which when support is sought for that product is not forthcoming even after countless emails and pleas for help in their support forums? Will Jelsoft entertain this customer and repair their boards and remove the modification? Or will the customer be referred back to the commercial product support system?
2. Not hosting the products here does not relieve Jelsoft of all liability. That is a bit like saying that the Bank of England will not assist you with the replacement of outdated currency to new currency because you got the currency from another source. Or what about your company being a day late with your wages so your direct debits do not be paid from your bank account? Who would be liable for that? Yes, your company. Not you, nor your bank, nor the company who the payment was to. There are so many possibilities for legal disaster here that I strongly recommend legal advice being sought from a solictor who has experience in dealing with international online trade.

1. Sopporting the staff through payments of fees from a directory that they moderate the submissions to is again a potential for disaster. Potentially the staff could decline all FOC requests and only approve the ones that incur fees as the FOC ones do not line their pockets. As vB.org staff are voluntary then any renumeration will affect this voluntary status making them employees. As an employee there is then tax status to be taken into account and it could significantly affect peoples finances. In the UK an increase in earnings of just ?1.00 can reduce the amount of tax credits recieved by someone on a low income by hundreds of Pounds. In addition to this, any staff that are on any form of benefit (we don't know their personal situations so there potentially could be) will then have to decide whether to continue working at vB.org and losing their benefit (as most of them are means tested based on income), or resigning from vB.org and remaining on their benefit. The penalties for messing about with this are high and can lead to imprisonment.
2. Using the fees to support the site in terms of hosting costs, domain name renewal, etc, would be a more sensible way of doing this. This would also potentially prevent any misuse of the directory submissions as the money would not be going to the staff. We all know that Jelsoft are perfectly capable of maintaining the hosting and domain etc anyway so there would be no pressure on the staff to reject FOC submissions due to the renumeration recieved.

1. Yes phpBB is free. However, do you remember the outcry last year when IPB went from free to paid? There is the potential for a similar thing to happen here. There will be people who say "$160 for vBulletin then to modify it the way I want it I'm gonna need another $500 to purchase the modifications! I'll go to phpBB. They're free and have free modifications." How many free quality programmes do you see for Windows software? Do you really think you could get something equivalent to MS Word for free? No. The same could potentially happen here. If something good is developed then the first thing that the coder will say before releasing is "Can I make any money from this?" If they think 'yes' then it will be a paid release. As it stands a number of the top quality releases are already paid for. Have you tried to get a decent photo gallery to work with 3.5.x? If you have you will know that the free releases here don't even come remotely close to the quality of the commercial releases.

In conclusion, I personally don't think that the commercial directory is in the best interests of the site. However, I have taken each paragraph of Wayne's posts and looked at them in detail and objectively. I have also looked for any potential risks and problems and highlighted them accordingly.

You will notice that I have use the word 'potential' a lot, but that is because nothing is certain and things may or may not pan out in the way that I have described. There are risks involved as there are with every new venture and so I decided that the best way forward would be to highlight these risks as well as putting forward my own personal point of view and illustrations.

Yes, this has been an extremely long post, but I believe that as this discussion is unfolding it is better to be thorough than to be a bit blase about it and just say a couple of words. Detail says a lot more than an 'I agree' or 'No, not a good idea' in my opinion.

I thank you for taking the time to read this.

Kerry-Anne

A commerical add-ons directory is an excellent idea. I think your 2 best options are:

1.) Implement your proposal just like you have it.

OR

2.) creating a separate domain name for the directory as was suggested by a few ppl. a domain name really wouldn't make a difference, you will still just click the link that says "Commercial Addons Directory" or what have you. Placement of the link to the directory is totally up to you.

Personally, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me if it was within vbulletin.org or outside it.

As for legality, liability, and what you do with the proceeds - that is up to you and God bless America! I know I wouldn't be losing any sleep over business liability for listing links on a website, nor would I even waste a phone call to my lawyer.

Best Regards & fortune to you.

I think it is an absoultely brilliant idea, and it should go full steam ahead

Yes, this is definitely a good idea. I agree with everything princeton said.

EDIT: I do not agree with the post below mine. IMHO, hacks should all be in one place. That way it's easier for everyone. It should be a separate area within the site though.

I think any proposal has to include a feedback mechanism. If I purchase an add-on and its great stuff, I should be able to say so. If it is "not so great", other users should be warned. It has to be more than a pay-for-listing link farm.

This sounds like a brilliant idea!. As a non programmer, when I visit this board, I'm usually on a specific mission. I sincerely appreciate every coder who takes time out of their lives to create free mods or addons that enhance my website. However, I'd rather pay for services or mods than not have access to them at all.

Free coders can keep doing what they do while others who prefer to charge for their services be allowed to do so without being viewed as turncoats or capitalist monsters.

After squandering money on scripts which just aren't up to par with VBulletin and mods found on this site, I've come to the realization that developing around the VB framework is the best way to go.

I'm for social consciousness and all that, but everyone should be entitled to earn a living as long as there's no fleecing going on.

I do agree that a system like Hotscripts would be good to use..

Just my thoughts....

I think "support the staff" is being misunderstood.

I read it to mean funds put towards software for the long term or used to support the staff.

I'm not seeing a cash grab here.

Proposal looks good, but others look good as well. This one will work if the membership shows maturity dealing with paid/free issues. I've seen this on other boards and it comes down to individuals acting responsibly and hack authors being accountable with their support and development.

There is just something missing here and does not sound right.

I want access to Mods for vbulletin... commercial or otherwise... I need to know what is out there. I support vb.org's decision to allow a directory of commercial mods...anything else that would inform me of the hacks that are out there, available for vB users.

Thanks

well, personally I just don't understand. let them advertise their services. please do not distract from the free hacks/styles/plugins, etc. many sites have paid advertisers showing off their services. target them in the appropriate section and leave it to that.