I guess I'm just touchy on this subject right now. Nobody has the right to my brain or the code that I write. Now, there are Vbulletin 2 hacks I have written that I have no intention of supporting any more. I could delete them because I won't support them, but I prefer to leave the work so that other coders can use them as a baseline.

Why don't I support my version 2 hacks? Because I don't have a version 2 board any more, and I don't see it as my duty to keep it installed to answer questions. If I was a company support person, that would be unforgiveable. But I'm not. I'm a hobbyist. And doing something that is no fun is no way to pursue a hobby. ;)

And, I'm not going to update most of my older hacks. Why? Because I no longer need the features those hacks provided. If I don't need the code, why would I take the time to write it, debug it, document it, and support it? I'd do it if a special friend asked me to, but not for any Joe Blow. Too many headaches involved.

If somebody were to say to me that they wanted to update one of my old hacks for VB3, I would say go for it. It's not an ego thing for me.

That said, if somebody were to take my code and re-release it with minor changes without my permission, I would have a fit. Why? Because it is a sign of disrespect. In a community such as this one, there have to be rules of etiquette. The rule about not pilching code is there because some hack authors release code for the joy of the recognition. Without that benefit, they wouldn't release code at all because there would be no fun in it. Allowing others to take code, tweak it a tiny bit, and then slap their name on it would drive the real hack-writers away.

Before you make any demands of hackers, please understand that hacking is our hobby, not our job. Making your site better is your responsibility, not ours. Fixing bugs in our released code is something we should do, but adding extra features, upgrading code to your version of vbulletin, etc. isn't something you should expect of us.

A hack is a gift from a coder to the community. When you receive a gift, you're not supposed to demand more of the giver.

Amy

It's not just the new people who see this, it's the seasoned hackers that have been here for a while, too. And it isn't just the older board members giving the new people problems, it goes both ways. That's the problem we hope to fix here so we can all get back to what it used to be like around here. It's almost like a home where the kids are born into the family (in this case becoming a member of vb.org in the beginning) and then they start growing up (learning coding and being a part of the community for a while and actually learning and having fun) and then they grow up and want to leave home because they think they can't learn anymore here and the fun is starting to go all out of it. I, for one, have never stopped learning. And I'll be damned if anyone is going to stop me from having fun around here now. ;)

We need to all step back and look at everything and start learning to compromise. The newbies as well as the hackers AND others who have been here a while. It's really very simple to fix if we're all willing to step in and give a hand in all of this. If we want this site to florish, then by God we need to start taking care of it and stopped all the squabbling back and forth about frivilous things that really don't matter in the scheme of things one way of the other. For every hacker that doesn't do his part like supporting his hacks or answering questions that come along, there are 2 that are doing just that trying to help when they can, where they can, and as often as they can. Don't worry about the ones that don't. They'll fade out and wither away. Appreciate the ones that do. And be thankful that we have a place we can come to and learn and have fun and who knows what else. Because I'm telling everyone now, and this is from 50 years of experience, you won't realize what you've lost or walked away from until it's gone and too damned late to do anything about it. And then it'll be, "you know, maybe there was something I could have done to help get vb.org back on the right track". If for no one else, do it for Chen, who worked his tail off (with others too many to mention) to make something of this place. We all worked at building something. Something that I was damned proud and still am to be a part of. Let's not tear it down any more than we already have. It's time for rebuilding, friendships as well as our home here.

Let's make this place better than it is right now and as good as it was, maybe even better. I'm game. Anyone else with me? ;)

If you are with me, I swear, somehow, someway, I will help figure out a way we can all get involved and make this work. With Xenon's and Logician's help and guidance, how can we go wrong? ;)

Whilst i've sat back and watched this discussion evolve it boils down to the simple points that someone has already mentioned. As stated in our footer all hacks are copyrighted to their authors. If you write the code yourself there's no problem as long as you don't copy bits of the source. If you take someone elses code, change it around a bit and modify the functions that is when you are breaking copyright laws. It's not too hard to understand surely :)

Even still, chances are that if someone is going to port over a hack they know enough PHP to write a version themselves.

i don't think it's about name recognition.. i personally could careless who the hell creates a hack or supports it or rewrites it or installs it.. i think those that support their own hacks are admirable for doing so.. those that don't, it's their right.. with old hacks for older versions of vB.. i tthink everyone would agree that support, at some point, is depricated.. it's a given.. happens in every industry..

as far as those expecting support from all hackers, that i know of, i personally have never asked for help one single time on this or any other forum unless i started rehacking someone elses code and that has only been for vBindex from NTLDR and he has offered nothing but solid information and support.. not only that, the ability to do multiple vBindex pages will be in an upcoming version, which is something i was heavily requesting, as well as many others..

i think people often don't realize that there are a hell of a lot more of us out there not asking questions or for support or anything of the kind than there are that actually do.. i make no demands on anyone.. i realize all of this is free.. hell, i run dedicated servers, pay for that out of my pocket every month, pay for all software based costs on the server (only vB for now) and any associated costs to do whatever i want with the machine.. not to mention it occupies every minute of spare time i have.. i am also a single father of a 3 year old daughter.. i have time for nothing.. i do this for fun and the pleasure and all that happy horse ++++ like everyone else..

but i make myself available even for the most menial things that users of my server need.. i do all of that for free as well, free for those guys and gals, that is.. i understand the support deal.. but also understand, there are more of us transparent users that thank the hackers, click install and move along without taking up time..

i just would like to see the site back to as united as it was when i first started coming here long before i ever bought vB and even registered.. this place alone is one of the reasons many of us spent the bread for something we can equally get for free from many places now..

the community was tearing some then, but the page has been ripped from the book now.. also, it would also be nice if there was OPEN AND HONEST discussion allowed.. i personally saw nothing wrong with debating the vbhosting hack and it's issues with the LA.. but that is another story.. just allow for talk.. it hurt no one having that thread..

While perhaps generous was not the correct word, given that Microsoft - like Jelsoft - has a proprietary interest in allowing and encouraging derivative works of their primary products, the legal precedent is quite clear (cf. 17 USC 106(d)), in that any work that is "inspired" by another is considered a derivative, and the intellectual property of the creator and owner of the original work from which it is derived. Only when work that is inspired meets a carefully crafted set of four separate legal criteria (the "fair use" and "ex parte" tests, outlined in 17 USC 107) does it not fall under the legal ownership of the original creator of the work from which it is derived or inspired.

In the case of vBulletin hacks, the code is clearly derived from the vBulletin base code, specifically, in that it creates interoperability with the parent work. The law is very clear in that the intellectual property rights of the code belong to Jelsoft. Because Jelsoft has a prioprietary interest in enabling customers to customize their software - much like Microsoft has a proprietary interest to license and distribute dynamic linked libraries to enable interoperability with component software - it very rightly waives its intellectual property rights in these cases, if not explicitly, then certainly implicitly, which is sufficient to the letter of the law.

Other software companies are far less interested in encouraing innovation like Microsoft and Jelsoft -- such as Apple, which during the first decade of its operation, prohibited any software manufacturers from developing software for its hardware (since it was legally derived from the core product). Apple's product model was based upon the "cartridge" ideology. IBM and its "compatibility", which implicitly waived IBM's proprietary and legal rights to derivative or inspired works, nevertheless proved to be far more markettable, and led to its dominance in the industry.

I'm not saying that Apple or Microsoft were right or wrong in what they have done - but it's obvious that the successful strategy is one of promoting both derivative works, while retaining a considerable amount of control over quality and types of derivative works. Hence, licensing.

That's just not gonna happen. Too much ego involved in most cases.

If I post code, I consider it gone and shared. It would be nice to have a credit in the comments if someone uses it, but who see's them anyway?

As for taking a hack cutting it up and making a new idea for your site. I don't think anyone can catch you. But posting it goes back to ego. You want to brag about your code. If hacking a hack gets what you want, keep it. I find this method of "sharing" pitiful, but as pointed out, they write it they own it.

It's an ego trip IMHO to claim ownership of a couple of lines that someone else could duplicate without ever seeing what someone else did. In the case of vB hacks it happens alot.

That brings us to owning an idea. If two folks have the same idea with different code, each should be able to post. That crap that one line of code was the same and you didn't have permission is BULL. Two people can come up with the same query or if() test and never have met in the vb world.

By the comments made so far by those in charge, this poster don't see change coming.

For instance One signature says don't even bother to ask to port my code. I don't see a way to recreate them without it being said it's a copy even if someone starts from scratch recreating one. The mods have final say and there no outside influence to control ego.

EDIT:
May I remind you all that this site is overseen by the same crowd that admits vB is a copy of an idea and now uses attornies to protect this same idea from others coping it. Go figure!

To back up my accusations...

From http://www.olate.com/articles/15 An interview with Kier Darby of vBulletin
Now jelsoft having lawyers look at a company because their BB looks like vB.
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showt...hlight=lawyers

Actually, any such look at this will be within the copyrighted code and not based on look and feel. Just because lawyers will be looking into the situation doesn't mean that there is a problem with the other product, just a perceived on at the time of investigation. One would be smart to consult lawyers on any matter that includes interpretation of the law.

However, this is not on topic with this thread and so if you want to add solutions to create a more open hacking environment then please do so. If not, then please make your comments about Jelsoft policies at the Jelsoft site or keep them to yourself.

I, personally, hope to hear ideas on how to make this a more open environment for future addons and modifications.

About my hacks: If someone wants to port one of them, he may just ask me by PM or eMail and since I guess, others think the same, perhaps a list could be created, where all these hackers are listed along with eMail and/or PM-Links.

create a forum for "open hacks"

in that forum, folks help contribute to each others code.. allow for discussions of the code itself.. allow for free conversation, unless it actually violates a law instead of prohibiting the speech because it "might" violate a law.. not that most of the speech here has been lawfully questionable, bu tat the same time, talking about certain things here makes the proverbial ass of jelsoft pucker tighter than a wh0re in church..

allow for a bit of freedom in those particular forums alone as far as some of the more questionable topics go.. and actually tell people that the roughly questionable conversations should be limited to the open area..

so create a sub cat with a couple of sub forums.. on is a hack forum the other a discussion of hacks/ open content.. it certainly is not a be all end all solution, but a step in the right direction is better than the two steps back approach of late..

edit--
Just to be sure folks know, make sure the info on the forum for hacks explicitly states all hacks posted within are OPEN for any modification as so chosen by any member as they se fit unless otherwise deemed to seriously violate the jelsoft license agreement.. and by seriously, i mean something that completely, without question, everyone can see it, violates the LA..