Freddie I'm glad to hear you have 'scouts' here at vB.org to keep you updated ... in particular of our most wanted wish lists.
It became tiring a long time ago to post requests into vB.com AND also post them here, with the hopes that someone here might be interested in tackling the request.

I'm not sure how you gauge from customers what they feel the most wanted of features are ... It certainly should not be based on replies to suggestions as many like myself are too busy with our own site to scan through the (current) listing of 7,765 threads in the Suggestion Forum.
... and it might cause an overload to your servers if it was necessary for us to reply to every wish with 'I want this', in order for it to get top priority.

I've suggested in the past of adding a poll to any suggestions that might be do-able so that we could express our opinion of a suggestion without the need to reply to every post.
Also please consider having a pre-beta survey of sorts, itemizing possible inclusions in the next release.

My understanding and acceptance for the somewhat lag (in my opinion) in the introduction of some features at vB.com over the years is because a considerable amount of effort was needed to be put in the development of the backbone of this software, which I am extremely pleased with.
And vB.org has served very well as a place where customers who've wanted to take this software to new levels can exchange ideas and test-run applications and so forth.

I have no clue personally if this software has reached a milestone, or whether version 4 or 5 will require a major revamp as did ver 2 to 3.

Whatever ... vB.org has been an invaluable partner in the development of this product despite what a very small handful of very vocal critics might say.
Here's to wishing vB.org /vB.com a continuing and positive collaboration in the development of this product.

For many of us, the lives we have made for ourselves through the use of this product depends on this.

Best wishes,
Mark

Just my $.02:
I honestly did think that developers came here and used our hacks as inspiration (not to steal code, obviously they code their own), and therefore I thought "cool, my soft deleted archive got included. Would be cool to have gotten a PM about it tho." because seriously, how cool wouldnt it be to get an official PM stating that a hack concept you use is being included in the defauly vBulletin ^_^
But Im not about to go cry in the corner just because I had to find out on my own :p

Whether or not Jelsoft uses our hacks as inspiration, as a hacker who got at least one of his hacks added to stock vBulletin (though in another form, but you know what I mean :P) I say that it feels really great. It makes me feel like what I spent hours upon hours on coding was actually worth a damn to the general public, not just forum type specific such as the RPG. Im glad that Im able to write something beyond Monster Battles :p


//peace

lol, you have completely assumed all the wrong things about my post. This is the last time I will explain it to you in a slightly different way and maybe you will understand.

From a BUSINESS standpoint, it makes sense in that VB staff knows hacks which can be had for no cost are a valuable resource to the potential buyer who is shopping for BBS software. Now read closely; I have NO problem with people charging for hacks, as a matter of fact I have purchased a few for myself, all I'm saying is you have to look at it from VB's perspective, too.

I would be surprised if most popular hacks here weren't posted at some point on the suggestions forum at vb.com. I know that in many cases, suggestions there became hacks here as Andreas did a few of them in the last year alone based on threads over there.

I remain surprised that this is even a discussion item though. Must just be me. :p

Gotta disagree bigtime on this one. When there is something I want for my site, I want the option of buying a program rather than waiting 6 months to a year for a hack to mature into what I need.

Plus we have to accept responsibility for paid programs. Some of the developers released code that made for their own site and were perfectly happy with it. They released it just so others could benefit.

Then the bugs are found, new features are requested and before long, they're working on code to the extent that it takes as much time as a part time job.

I don't care whether a list of paid add-ons is maintained here or at VB.Com, but their should be one place where we can look for paid code when the free code here isn't what we need.

Besides, if you take such a hard line, why should anyone with paid code release lite versions here?

Wrap your heads around this. Not everyone running a VB site is a hobbyist. Some are legitimate business sites, revenue producers or support sites and we don't have to take the cheapsake approach. Both types of users should be accomodated,

Well said, but here at the org we are pariahs, so to speak.

I also coded the moderated/soft deleted threads feature. I didn't really think it warranted a high placement on the feature list but Kier wanted a global place to manage soft deleted threads. Our original plan was to merge the modcp into the admincp and make it all permissions based. We've since changed that plan to not allow moderators into the admincp to perform actions they currently do from the modcp. We are sure a fair number of complaints would be made about possible security breaches if moderators are allowed in the same code base as administrators.

I've always hated the modcp and thought that all of that stuff should be moved to the front end so the new plan is to merge the modcp into the user cp. The soft deleted feature was to go into the modcp but I suggested that we should put it in the usercp now and avoid having to move it in the future. I also suggested that we should add moderated threads since both features could share code base rather easily. I'm sorry to say but I wasn't aware there was a hack to manage deleted threads already.
So if there exists a hack to add moderator abilities into the mod cp, be forewarned, we aren't stealing it from you when 4.0 is released :)

Of course, many suggestions made to us at vbulletin.com stem from users using them first as modifications from this site so your code does serve as inspiration in a round about way for many features.

Thanks for sharing this, Freddie. I was hoping to see the MCP and ACP merge, but I like this even better. Looking forward to seeing what you all come up with on this. :)

I don't think there would be any security breaches as long as each hack made sure to specify a permission rather than just calling can_administer() for error checking (unless it's the intention to allow all admins, that is).
But I might not see the whole picture, so don't flame me for this one :p
As for your emphasis on the word "coded", Im sorry if I made it sound like I thought/think you steal code, because I've never thought that. It's quite obvious that, for instance, while your Infraction system has display similarities (ie how it looks on the screen) to AWS, anyone could just open the file and see tis a completely different code set.
I only dislike the modcp because theres no link to it on the frontend. I heard the reason for this tho, so don't take this as complaining about it without knowing why :)
Bah ok then =P
And when is that again? :D

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. TECK asked the mods/admins to share their personal visions and Amy did so, then you take the opportunity to attack her. Stop your personal crusade and let other people express their ideas.. I think everyone gets it, you don't want the coders forum to be private.

When those "personal views" are diametrically opposed to the purpose of the site and the particular position held by the staff member in question, those views deserved to be scrutinized.

Conversely, they let us reuse their code. It's quid quo pro.

Copying an idea is different then copying code. I consider it a blessing when the good ideas from here appear in the vB production code. Some of my private hacks have been obsoleted because of new features. It's great that the management of that code is off my back. I love it!

that's by your interpretation. Her views and the forum in question doesn't conflict with it in the least bit for me.

and you're saying that she's ok to think what she wants, as long as you're okay with it, or it doesn't conflict with your opinion.

People want it both ways... Many of you want the staff expressing their personal opinions here, which is not really a bad thing as long as everyone conducts themselves like adults. The problem comes into play when you start tearing their posts down bit by bit, and telling them they do not deserve a position on the staff. This does nothing but drive them away from your points, they don't have to put up with this if they don't want to, rest assured no one is over there forcing them to press F5 all day.

I don't think any of you really realize how stressful it is for the staff members here. Think about it, how would you like to wake up to this mess everyday? Would you enjoy waking up in the middle of the night because you're worried about the drama going on in this forum? I know these are some of the things I did, and I'm sure other staff members (past and present) know exactly what I am trying to get at here.

Be respectful to your peers (staff, and fellow users). A polite "While I disagree with your points, I can respect them. Here is why I think they are incorrect" goes a long way in getting your opinion noticed in the staff forums. Really there is more to it than that, it shows respect...and I'm not talking about respecting someone because they are staff. I'm talking about respecting them because they are just like you: human.

Treat people how you want to be treated, and you'll find things will start to improve. Realize that this site is not about coders, or users, or staff, or the elite. It's about coming together and doing things that benefit the greater good. It's about learning from your peers, and passing on what you learned to others.

There will never be a time when you agree with everything that goes on here. This is just a fact of life, you just have to accept that while you may not think something belongs here, many others may not share this opinion. By all means express your opinion here, but please try to do it in a polite way.

Above all remember, this is not some school yard where you have to yell to get noticed. This is a community, for message board admins, who are looking to improve their communities and share knowledge with one another. Without places like this vBulletin would not be what it is today, hell the internet as a whole might not even exist, at least not in the form we see it in today.

It's always good to get ideas from both sides of an issue, this is the only way to find some sort of common ground. But you have to learn to work together even when you do not agree with each other. If you do not learn how to do this you will start to ignore some of your peers as time goes on, and that means you're not seeing the whole story.

VERY well said, Brad...

Brad is like a refreshing breath of fresh air in smoggy downtown. :)

I partially read your reply brad and what you say is very much sound. On the otherhand, Actions which followed would contradict what you say. Take the graphic database for example, Most importantly the placement. From a contributors perspective vbulletin made it very hard for designers to get a foothold in this area. I made a suggestion on ways of improving this area and with much contributing from myself after a solid month and being told it was being structured for the better it took a turn for the worse. I even suggested about naming the sub headings and posted them (which were sound) and still they are left empty. If indeed staff want the community to work together you need to work with them. So far, Staff aren't. You are told that progress is being made and when it is it's for the worse (I'm speaking of the graphic database).

Again, I am pointing to the graphic database and speaking as a contributor that the people behind the scenes didn't take a blind bit of notice and took it upon themselves to totally shatter the gfx database.

IMHO The staff would have a deeper respect for the graphic database if (from the start) you had dedicated staff to contribute into it. Heck, check invisionizie.com to see what I'm saying. For a resource site vb.org have possibly the worst structed, placement, content driven graphic database for any board software which was a shock to me when I first visited. Who do we blame for this, Well, I can only blame the people who neglected it and when feedback was ignored you only continue to pave the way for a shabby looking database.

Sure enough If progress in this area was taking a turn for the better you would be more obliged to have made something from it and take feedback from the members who have experience in graphic databases. You didn't which leads me to think people hold back in giving suggestions and feedback which also means you shouldn't be surprised why contributors get fustrated.

Actions speak louder than words brad and although your reply makes for good and sound reading you only have to take a look at the gfx area to see what I'm talking about and the ignored feedback I and others tried to give.

lol...

I'm not doing any "interpretation" at all. Nor did I ever say what you just said I said. :) Simply re-read her post. She said what she said, and no one put "words in her mouth". Her sentiments and views regarding the site are contradictory and isolationist, but they are NOT ambiguous: no interpretation required.

And once more, anything further regarding the "forum in question" will have to wait for the promised but yet to appear Town Hall thread on the subject.

I got your back on this one. You are dead on correct. She has stated clearly that she is not going to budge on her position no matter how many members disagree with her and that where she can influence the decision she will.

That is exactly what she has said and I have quoted her on it. Now she can either live by her words or deny them.

Neither benefits the community. A good manager follows the market demands. ;)


P.S. Don't try to twist this into I think Amy is bad. I don't think that at all. I do think her postition of power and her expression of opinion lately are very selfish though. This is a community, not a club. Everyone pays the same to be here and should have all the same benefits. That is my problem, not the person, but the persons actions regarding one issue.

A good manager gets paid well. A good volunteer however will represent the community at large and be able to be respected for their points of view.

Cut her some freaking slack. I'd rather have people here that can voice their opinion without being skinned by a couple of vocalists. Crikey, shes far less vocal than some on this thread.

There is a way to say it, so the person doesn't get hurt...
What do you gain to create tension in a constructive discussion?
It will stop others share their oppinions, knowing they will be attacked by members.

So where is the advantage? You let us know.

Thanks.

I haven't attacked amy. I don't even know her. She's probably a fantastic person: intelligent, witty, charming. I've praised her actions, such as actively moderating threads when they went off-topic, even though those actions weren't popular. So this isn't personal in the least.

However, her views and "vision" of what this site should be, are indeed directly opposed to what one would expect from the "Customer Team Leader".

And you don't have to take my word for it. Just imagine the ideal "Customer Team Leader", what viewpoints such a person should have regarding the site, and the various reasons people (customers) visit the site, how they could get the most from it... and then read her public posts, and compare.

In at least one respect, my fears are well-founded. I asked for a Town Hall thread on the coders forum issue, one was announced, I've held my tongue on the issue waiting for it, and wondered if it could be handled impartially. So, where is that thread?

I agree with you tgreer on that particular member of staff.

tgreer, I've read all your posts on this issue and I wouldn't exactly say you've 'held your tongue' on this issue :)

I'm curious what more can you add to this?
No offence, but this banana has been beaten to a pulp.

The topic of Amykhar's post has been discussed enough now.

She clearly stated that she was voicing a personal opinion. You are free to judge her as a person for having this opinion. And so you have done, and this should stop here.

As a Staff member Amykhar must follow the Staff policies just like any other Staff member, her personal opinion doesn't make a difference in her action as a staff member. If you feel that any staff member is abusing a Staff postion to force their personal opinion, then you could contact an Administrator so he can investigate the issue.

It was announced the 16th, it is now 19th. Is that so long waited? That same question you have now posted and got answered in multiple forums here and vbulletin.com, and also had been answered by me in PM to you.

I've never judged anyone here as a "person", it would be unthinkable. Please don't imply that I've judged anyone.

As to a public TOWNHALL thread, there's nothing I can post in reply to you that you won't end up deleting, which makes it a bit hard to carry on the conversation. In fact, I've asked several questions about this situation on vbulletin.com, which you haven't answered.

tgreer, if the mods will permit, I'd prefer to reply to your PM in this thread.

One thing I really appreciate regarding some of your past posts is the emphasis of the need to act as professionals here at vB.org.
As Brad and others have pointed out, there is one main common denominator here that brings us together - We are mostly all admins and/or owners of our own site.

One of the toughest things we are faced with is the delegating of responsibilities.
This is really difficult to do because we know only too well what this involves, and know in our own minds what we aspire to be, but inevitably must pass on various responsibilities to others ... if we are to do well, what we do best.

As an admin, I'll be the first to admit that 'before I could learn to walk I had to learn to crawl' and even though now I can run, I still occasionally stumble.

And I am extremely grateful to those who have given me the space to learn at my own pace, despite occasional mistakes and blunders.

As an admin yourself I hope you agree that this is what we should afford the staff at vB.org.
They need time and space, even be permitted to make mistakes without being made to look like fools.

Re: creating private forums for whatever purpose...
All I can say to this is thank god everything isn't hashed out in the open!
The result would be - too many bright minds bickering over the details with little else getting done.

I really apologize if I sounded insulting. ... My wife says I can be downright callous at time ... but when it comes down to the nitty gritty I know of no other way to say it.
Let's give 'em a break. Even let 'em make mistakes.
Most of all they need to know they have our support.

Cheers,
Mark

I only PM'd you to give you an answer to your question. I think wide-ranging issues which affect the entire community should be discussed openly; I don't make a habit of politicking via PM.

I agree that we all make mistakes. That isn't the issue. The issue is how one handles such mistakes. You'll just have to take my word that I didn't immediately rush over to vbulletin.com: I first PM'd the administrators about the mistake, and then took what I felt was the only reasonable next action based on the responses.

You don't sound insulting at all. I appreciate your very tactful post.

Here's the quality of your coders in the coders forum. I just looked up one member. He has access because he posted code someone else wrote with permission.

What does that "coder" bring to the table that someone else that did not code a hack does not?

I bet I can find more of these so called "coders". But as with everything else that is done in this club, it will be justified with some exception rule that only clique members can live up to.

What was the topic of this thread again? This has turned into a "complain about everything" thread.

Lets stop complaining about EVERYTHING and realize you can't have everything a certain way. I don't always agree with the staff but they are running the site, they can't second guess every decision to make everyone happy it's not going to happen..

You were heard, and I did attempt to make it better when I had time. The problem with this was many things. There were on-going plans to improve the site, that included a new style and lots of additions by the coding team. As such I did not wish to make radical changes to the style or the code currently begin used to power this site, I knew that work would just be thrown out in a couple of months.

I did what I could: I gave you an installation button and 'hack style' thread layout for these threads. I gave the graphics it's own page and linked to it from the 'portal' I made for hack releases. I planned on doing more (showing them in your profile for example) but I had to take my leave before that could get done, if you continue to express your opinion the current staff will keep trying to improve this area of the site.

I agree with you, actions speak louder than words, but action does take time. Please realize that I had a lot going on at that time, and could not devote 100% of my time to your requests. I was busy dealing with other users, training a bunch of new staff members, answering day to day questions from staff members about current issues, breaking in a new admin, and I was speaking to Jelsoft (and it was working) while doing all of this.

I was also the only one could make changes to the code here at the time, heck I was the only on with any kind of access to the server after Erwin and Stefan left. In about a week or so I went from having a small role as an admin here to begin "the man in charge". When you're the man in charge of a site like this there are a ton of things you have to do daily, you guys don't see this so you just assume it does not happen...to top all of this off, I was doing everything from a connection that takes upwards to a minute to load a thread. How many of you are still on dial-up by the way? How many of you that are on dial-up dial in at about 12kbps? That's what I use to get on the internet everyday. ;)

Again, that's your interpretation. Her sentiments and views regarding the site are not in any way contradictory to me. Just because you think you're right doesn't make it so. This isn't an issue with a right/wrong. Its one way of doing something vs. another way of doing something. You're not getting your way right now and you've been throwing a tantrum. Its like you're afraid that the changes they've announced will be coming won't be what you want so you're trying to make as big a stink as possible to get your way.

To me your sentiments and views are contradictory. You want people to talk about coding, yet there have been open coding forums for a long time and, according to you, little talk of coding. Now there's finally coding talk in the coders forum and you want it to go back to how it was before, which will just stop the coders from talking. If that isn't so, then why wasn't there coding talk before? Like I said, if you want coding talk to be discussed openly for everyone, then you need to be the one to start the conversation.
link to said quote?
Her posts in this thread say nothing of the sort.
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....&postcount=112
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....&postcount=129

Also, you seem to give a lot of credit to Amy as a person, yet you don't think she'd be able to separate her own views on this particular subject from the wishes of the community, if they didn't happen to coincide. (which I'm sure she's had to do on numerous other issues as well). This thread was about opinions and it was asked specifically that the mods and admins share their personal views, she gave hers, now lay off. She's entitled to one just as everyone else is, even if its not the one you want her to have. Admins can still do a fine job fulfilling the wishes of the community even when they personally think another direction might be better.

Wow, talk about an interpretation! They've announced changes? Where?

yeah, amazing, isn't it? You can read about it at www.vbulletin.org. Glad I could help.

We are now closing this thread as it is no longer useful to us in it's current form ... if you want to share your ideas and/or suggestions, we have started a town hall thread ... [TOWN HALL] Supporting the entire Member Base.

thank you for understanding