that's like saying all nursery nurses and midwives that don't want kids should resign. god forbid that a coder get appointed to the staff and maintain their position on the fact they come to the site primarily to be a part of the community and want to discuss things that revolve around that community on a fundamental level; *shock horror* it's code!

I'm sorry if you're unable to comprehend my previous post, and this thread is meant for opinions of which I expressed mine and by flaming others because of your ignorance only makes you look bad.

IMO, my post made sense in that when people shop for bulletin board software one of the things potential customers consider is the features the software offers, and vb.org with all the hacks available for VB looks very good to the buyer when comparing vbulletin to other BB software. However, *IF* many hacks start going the paid route, this can all change when considering the purchase of VB and you have to believe that some of the heads at VB realize this. I for one have no problem with people charging for certain hacks - they have every right to get compensated for their work if they choose, but make sure you also understand the negative impact it can have as well.

Its always attractive when customers of a product can get free stuff off the backs of others, however in reality, coding large scale modifications for vB has gotten to the point where its more difficult and time consuming for people to give all their time and talent for nothing but the benefit of Jelsofts customers wanting free stuff.

Don't get me wrong, most would like to (I would prefer it that way). Just don't confuse people charging for their hard work with greed. Not everyone can give 20+ hours a week for you to have free enhancements just so Jelsofts products can seem more attractive.

Remember, its not like Jelsoft is giving anything (not even a scrap) to add-on coders. They still have to buy their license just like you do. Developing an add on, then supporting it is a VERY time draining and costly exercise.

However it can be a freaking blast if you get onto a winner! (or is that a wiener?!?) :D

Just interested: what is supposed to be "the ultimate vBulletin resource" at the moment, if it's not vbulletin org?
Seeing as to how vb org is doing very well indeed even at this time.

Tim there are other resources now... vB-FAQ, vbHackers, vBWebmasters, etc. They are not as big or great as .org, in terms of hacks/mods, styles, etc... but they do make it so that .org is not the only place to go to find vB info, hacks, etc.

Hiya Ohiosweetheart,
I'm aware of those other resources, and in fact I'm already a member of many of them (either under my real name or under my usual cross-board username of Gurdur), and I think many of them are truly great; yet, with all respect to those others, as far as I can see vb org is the best still, so I was interested in what Devan is saying is now the best if it's not supposed to be vb org anymore -- especially since his argument, that vb org needed paid hacks, hinges on that claim.

ok... sorry

To say and live it for one's self is not the same as enforcing it on others. Nice try though. ;)

Another example came when another thread was answered by a staff member exclaiming, why is this conversation still going on, an admin allready commented!

So is that the do all end all? Only an admin can make a suggestion? I understand the admin was asked to "code". However, it could have been pointed out that the member could use the buddy system to achive similar results.

So I suggested it. Thank goodness the thread was still open and we can explore other ideas that don't impose on the admins.

Use the Force Luke. We can come up with better discussions then case closed silliness I hope.

EDIT: (that is not a wayne luke dig)

1. Exclaiming is an extreme exageration. See any exclamation marks or shouting in the post? No. It was a gentle suggestion that maybe the subject should be dropped instead of hashing over the same request.
2. I'm a person who's been a member of this site since the day it opened. I am allowed to have my own personal vision of what I would like it to be. I understand that it's not going to be that and why, but I'm still allowed to say what it would be in my ideal world. A place where people who code or who are learning to code discuss coding and socialize. I said nothing about exclusive. Tgreer put words in my mouth. And given that he is the one harping about off-topic posts, his objections to my dream of a coding oriented modification site is a bit ludicrous.

I'm sorry you don't like the fact that I like the coder's forum. But, I'm not going to apologize for liking it or for liking to work with other people who like to code their sites. It has nothing to do with cliques or exclusion. It has everything to do with enjoying a forum devoted to a specific topic. I don't care if the people who are in there can barely read an if loop. What I care about is that they are willing to try to take their vision for their site and implement it themselves. THAT'S what keeps me here. People creating unique sites through their own efforts and ideas. It's a fun thing to be a part of.

Thank you sabret00the, for this post.
I quoted only a small portion, it must be read entirely to see it's essence.

I must say if some people spent less time in the site feedback forum going on about how bad this community is, and more time in the other forums helping users a lot of these problems would work themselves out.

I know you all want to make your points here, but I think you all may be getting a little caught up in these heated threads.

I've been here for years, I was a member in the Chen days as well. I even used a few of TECK's hacks when I ran vBulletin 2 and I always was thankful for them and tried to help other users of his hacks when I had the time.

The staff can not control what members do here at all times, they are not baby sitters. They can write a policy and follow it until they can't stand to stay awake anymore but that is not going to fix the under lying issues of this community.

We, as members, have to step up and set an example for everyone else. We are the ones that must educate the masses, we are the ones that must give a helping hand when someone asks for it. We are the ones that make this community what it is.

Well Brad, you stepped down (unfortunatelly, because you are a great guy), instead of stepping up... did you do it because you did not liked also in what direction vB.org is going (like Stefan)?

Please point out which part of my post was ignorant. Because just stating I am ignorant without providing a valid counter-argument just makes you seem more and more like the person who's afraid of getting his free toys taken away from him when coders realise they don't have to put up with all the crap some users (thereby meaning downloaders) give them in their support threads and for nothing in return.
It only has a negative impact when new purchasers of vBulletin is not aware of the fact that the solution they are looking for exists.
What you are basically saying is that since we paid for Windows, we should get all Windows based software for free. I mean if I want a program that for instance securely erases my files, I should get a $300 software for free since I already paid the same for Windows. Certain software even costs MORE than Windows itself, oh my god this is such negative impact on Windows, we must all swap to Linux before it's too late!
Can you see the stupidity of that statement? It's exactly the same you are saying. Paid software does not have a negative impact as long as users know where it exists.
If vBorg allowed for a directory viewable by guests, they could come in here, search the free forums and then the paid hack directory when they didn't find what they were looking for.
You say you understand why coders want to make money, but you're not condoning it. That kind of hypocricy unnerves me. As Ive said time and time again, this ain't no communist society. Not everything comes for free with demand. Some things are worth paying for. Those that don't want to pay can either make their own version, or they can make do without until they want to pay for it.

Very fair point and one Im guilty of as of late. Problem is, most of my free time where I can 'help' others is spent helping customers and coding. I really only have time to pop in and see whats happening every now and again. However I do think your point is very valid regardless of my excuse. :)

My reasons are un-realated to this site and the recent going ons here. I simply have issues in my life that need to be taken care of at this time. I will stick around and pop in when I can, just because I am no longer an admin does not mean I will not be in the community trying to help people when I can. :)

@amykhar: what words did I put in your mouth? My response was directly toward what you said. Also, what was off-topic? In a thread about making this place better, I think it's on-topic to point out your role/staff title is in direct conflict with your ideal vision of the site. I've already promised to reserve any more comments on the Coders Discussion for the town-hall thread, if and when it ever appears . I'm very curious if the issue can get an objective hearing, given your stance.

The issues raised here have nothing to do with vBulletin.org. The changes you see are a reflection of the change in the status of PHP itself. All of these issues effect every single PHP oriented site that exists. Not just this one.

PHP is no longer a grass roots scripting language. It is now mainstream. It once attracted a defined group of tinkerer's and those that like to live on the cutting edge. It now attracts everyone. Deal with it. If you like that close knit feeling that used to exist here, at Sitepoint, or all the other places that are no longer as fun and helpful as they used to be, then you need to move on to the next big thing. Try Python or Ruby on Rails for that coding community feel. Otherwise, get used to the general populous and all that comes with it.

i disagree completely. Many coders make free mods on this site and then jelsoft just come a long and pick up any mods they like and stuff it in the next version of vB without the users permission which is breaking the rules of this site. So if we want to realease paid hacks then we should seeing as jelsoft get paid for our work.

I would consider it an honor if one of my modifications made it into the core release. I also know many others share this feeling.

Some of the things you take for granted these days were hacks in the old days, a short list would include:

Avatars
Private messages
Super Moderators
Who's Online
Attachments in file system
Quick Reply
Returning to the last post of the thread after making a reply (we used to redirect the forum)
Who's online in threads
Soft delete aka the recycle bin
Adding more than 5 moderators per forum
Adding more custom profile fields (anyone remember hacking nearly every file to do that in ubb?)
Last thread title in the last post column on index.php

...I could go on and on..

Yes some of these things have been default in vBulletin from the start. But vBulletin grew out of ubb in a way, and in the old ubb days we hacked all of these things in (and a lot more).

The point I'm trying to make is Jelsoft is not ripping off hack authors here. They are adding things that their customers want, like they always did. If Jelsoft would have ignored the hacking community from day one, I doubt many of us would be using it today. They also don't just lift code, they code it themselves and often improve it in some way. :) That in no way breaks a rule on this site. :)

This is absolute nonsense. Jelsoft doesn't take your code and put it in vBulletin, in fact if they did that they'd be obliged to pay you. This has only ever happened on one occasion.

Let me correct this one.

I don't think Jelsoft would ever use code from a hack here to add new functionality to the standard vBulletin software. They might implement the same idea that was also the basis of a modification on this site, but that will often be triggered by customer requests (and often those same requests are what in the end lead to a released modification).

If you have any proof of what you are acusing Jolsoft of, then please provide it, together with a statement from the origianl author of that block of code that he never gave permission to Jelsoft to use his code.

There might be a few cases in the past where Jelsoft have used code made by others, but i know that those authors have been contacted and credited (you can still find some on the credits page in ACP). This even happened in the few cases where Jelsoft used a bigger and original idea of an author.

If you want to be part of a coding community you should change language or find a new forum? That's absolute nonsense.

That is not what I said. Your missquote is absolute nonsense.

To use an example Livewire's vBSigHosting hack. He did not get contacted.

Look at the code, they did not take his hack and just place it in the files. The developers coded it in their own way, because it has been requested for ages.

<a href="http://www.vbhackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3548&page=3" target="_blank">http://www.vbhackers.com/forum/showt...?t=3548&page=3</a>

Way off topic IMO.

And your opinion is welcomed.

Yes, but that doesn't mean everyone.

How is this off topic? We're are talking about how the old ways are gone and the new ones are here now, this is vaild imho!

Jelsoft is not taking your code and putting it in their software, they are adding things to their product that their customers request. If you see an add-on with over 2000 installs it would be crazy not to say "Hey a lot of people are using it, and we're getting threads about it on vBulletin.com all the time. I think it would be a good idea to add that as it's something our customers would really enjoy".

They then go code it themselves from the ground up, often improving and taking it to the next level. Everyone is happy because that is one less thing they have to add, and we all move on.

Way back in my day it was an honor to have your hack become part of the software. We did not care it we got credit, just knowing our idea was good enough to make it in the software was enough. Heck we did not care if someone released a hack that functions just like ours, as long as they took the time to code it themselves. Hell we would even team up and try to improve and learn from each other, or maybe release it as a joint project.

What happened to taking pride in your work just because it was something you coded yourself?

They don't ask you, and they don't pay you. This place is used as there free research center. WHICH IS WRONG

My friend, just because you have an idea does not mean someone did not have it before you.

Should I go pay the man that came up with a fishing rod if I know how to build one myself? Should I even have to ask him if I want to build one? No.

Using this place for research is not wrong, it helps improve the software, bottom line. Half of the default options in your control panel were hacks at one point or another.

And that is your opinion. Other people have different one's.

All i see on that page is that someone (LiveWire) is claiming that he didn't get credit. He is not saying that they didn't ask/get permission.

Anyway without someone showing parts of code from which it is obvious that Jelsoft did copy his code, we are still nowhere with this discussion.

PS This thread is about the suggestion to bring vb.org back to what it was before. If you want to discuss copyright laws or if Jelsoft break a law, i suggest you start your own topic at vbulletin.com, or one hee in the lounge. This has nothing to do with how vbulletin.org is functioning or with "bringing back the old times".

Gee Amy then I gotta ask again when you say, "I don't care if the people who are in there can barely read an if loop.", why does it need to be private then? You have no objections, in your own words, as to a member's abilities. That is the pinacle of this ongoing debate.

Thank you for putting it in writing that you don't mind anyone else going in there regardless of their abilty.

So with me and you and tgreer and Joeychgo we have a good start for a motion to make the "coders forum" a regular forum.

Great work and thanks for the opportunity to work with you.

You can't patent features for vBulletin boards. How naive are you!

What complete nonsense. Jelsoft may take the idea (since it's obviously popular) but they don't use the code.

Funnily enough, the only mod with over 2000 installs is not included, but if it ever were, I would not be knocking on their door looking for payment (nor I expect would any of the other people who have produced a similar thing over the various versions of vb ;)).

Most of the new feature is/was based on andreas's sig limits, and they added the ability to have an attachment in the sig.

what ever i am not in the mood to argue so lets just drop it and ge3t back on topic.

There are only two instances of where we have used contributed code.

The original Poll hack by Doron was integrated (in 1.x I believe). The second instance is when I integrated Overgrow's Karma. In both instances this was only done after the author granted permission.

We do not look at the source of your modifications. Frankly, we do not need to view your source code to be able to program a feature that serves the same purpose. Customers ask for features, we add them to the internal feature list and rank them. We then go down the list adding the features. I am sure that some of these requests come from customers that saw such a feature here and they serve as the middleman. We don't come trolling here looking for ideas, as we have no shortage of ideas. If we used this website for our ideas, then why don't we have RPG addons, uCash, Arcade, and all the other popular hacks? With 3.6 we simply added items that were requested frequently on vBulletin.com. I think you'll find the infraction system doesn't function like the Warning System hacks. That is because I programmed it with my own goals, not basing it on anything that was already established. Hence people complain that it doesn't actually change usergroups like the hacks.

Why are we being accused of stealing a signature limiting system when phpBB had the same thing before any hack existed on this forum? I've long suggested that we must limit signature images by forcing them to be uploaded like Avatars. It was on the 2.x todo list but didn't make the cut.

Just look here.

I couldn't tell you what the most popular hacks are or what gets installed often. Part of the problem with this website is that we (developers) do not browse this website very often and have no idea what is going on here. I only found this thread because Zachery pointed it out to me. Please don't be so quick off the handle to accuse us of theft. We have rather high standards and would have to quit before we would ever use anyone else's code again.

We appreciate the importance of this website to the future of vBulletin. The presented issues are being examined and we hope to be able to keep this communit vibrant and active.

Well this went off topic. :/

Sad that a dev had to jump in to defend their additions to the core install -- as if anyone with a text editor couldn't see that the code is not the same as the hacks.

Personally, I was ELATED the day I heard that I wouldn't have to hack for persistent mark forum read any longer. It isn't about ego (or shouldn't be) -- the more that goes into the core install, the less we ALL have to fiddle with on updates. 3 of my minor releases for 3.5 became irrelevant with 3.6 and I couldn't be happier about that.

Color me old school, but I will take SourceForge over Commercial any day. :p

That said -- I wanted to note something. I noticed that the majority of the threads in VB General Mod Discussions are answered/addressed by the .org team. I for one will plan to make that my first stop here and address anything I am capable of giving a coherent answer to. I would challenge others to do the same -- as we were ALL new to this once.

:)