you realize that coders don't get paid, right? you make it sound as if you're entitled to their code and support because you paid money for someone else's product (vbulletin). I do think that there should be some steps taken to encourage and ensure more/better support, but by no means do I think of it as something that I'm owed/entitled to from coders who are sharing their modifications for free. (maybe some option to uncheck the support box on hacks that say they're supported when in reality they're not? Maybe some award for those that provide good support, like a member vote or whatever?)

And why would you run to .com and throw a tantrum about people here who are providing useful tools to others? Who cares if there is competition? It'd actually probably be better if there were more competitions because many people like to be challenged and it would end up making the modifications better and better.

If you want to tell .com that you think they should have paid coders/staff who release hacks and modifications, then say so.

Would you go to the redcross and whine because aide workers, who volunteer their time, are competiting with eachother to try and help the most people? Or if they had meetings which only aide workers were able to attend? [sarcasm]Oh no, segregation!! They're people just like everyone else, but they get to go to a meeting that I don't get to go to simply because they're helping others and I'm not! Bring out the human rights activists![/sarcasm]

I just addresses human rights before you posted.

Are you saying that it's ok to segregate? Are you supporting we should have a white's and colored section?

The idea that one license holder gets more then another in the form of segregation is anologous to racism.

This is the kind of post that we can find a way to deal with on an intelligent and compromising level, without all of the politics and personal vendettas thrown in. Thank you, sir. It is refreshing to see that in this thread. ;)

Then please tell me the proper interpretation of your post #111, Boofo. What about my interpretation is "twisted"? It seems very clear and unambiguous.

The "Coders Discussion" is a real issue. I'm not the only one who thinks so. It is not a figment of my fevered imagination, and you can't sweep it away by saying it's only a problem because I'm trying to make it one. I have access to it; I released a silly little hack so I could gain access, so this isn't a personal issue. It's a sitewide issue that has caused a rift, and undermines the very raison d'etre of the site.

The arguments put forth are:

• It's a "reward" for contributors.
• We discuss security issues in there, which our users shouldn't see.
• Newbies wouldn't benefit.
• The other programming sections aren't any good.

Surely anyone can see how weak and self-defeating these arguments are? It's obvious, though, that I've lost this battle, and that the only staff response is going to be more of what you've been dishing out, so this thread has been yet another useless exercise.

Huh? Where? When? I've made no such implication, anywhere. What's needed is a development discussion community. Whether or not such discussions lead to a published plugin, for free or for pay, really doesn't matter one way or another to me. It's nice that many are indeed released, for free, and non-programmers and plugin users should be rightfully grateful for that... but that's a complete non-sequitor to the issue at hand.

I personally, are happy that i have no acsess there.
A coder, at least knows what he/she talkes about when they discuss coding and so on.
I would probably freak out of the word, security issues.
And starting asking stuppid question.
But what do you mean about this?

Just make sure you drink from the right water fountain in the future.

this has nothing to do with a private coders forum and can be done by anyone here whether they're a coder or not.[sarcasm]Uh oh, I just violated some human rights, better find a lawyer[/sarcasm]what's funny (sad) is you actually think a private coders forum is on par with segregation.

For everyone of you that "don't care", there are ten up and coming programmers that DO CARE and do want to know.

Either way, as a license holder, if you want to get that information, it should be available equally to all license holders.


If Joe can get there and Mary can't, but they paid for the same product and support, what should we call it besides segregation?

Its not that i dont care, i really have no knowleges to be there.
Dont they get acsess when they relese a tiny hack? Tiny ore tiny, its not "flaming" but i mean a littel thing compare to a big hack.
Why should we acsess something we dont know a shit about?
Wouldent we do more harm than good?

@Lottis: that was given as a reason for the need to have the "Coders Section" private. Re-read the thread, you'll find something to the effect that the "Programmers Discussion" forum wasn't "fit for discussion", so a particular thread was started in the private forum instead. It's called a "circular" argument: why are the existing coding sections of inferior quality, with many threads simply ignored? Because the real coding discussions are private. Why are they private? Well, because the public discussions aren't any good...

so coders want a place to talk among themselves.. big freaking deal! There's nothing in there that I'm 'entitled' to as a paying jelsoft customer. It was disclosed at vb.com exactly what I got with my purchase and I got it.

tgreer, who cares about the reason they want the forum? Maybe they want it to discuss the sunsets, maybe its to share recipes, maybe its to chat on this forum with other coders in a place where they won't be hounded by us members?

And please noppid, go find the 10 members for everyone 1 that think coders shouldn't have a private forum, yet even more that feel their human rights are being violated because of it.

I'm now ignoring you. You have nothing but sef indulgent musings to post. Exactly the problem here.

Based on the need for hacks, I bet I can find more then 10. But my time is better spent arguing for equal access of all license holders rather then one or ten. I'm in this for all or nothing. I do not support any kind of different treatment of any license holder.

you're ignoring me for giving valid responses to your comments without ever personally attacking you? hmm.. ok?

Based on the need for hacks, as you mentioned, you will find members willing to give coders more benefits, not less. If someone wants to help the community then the access and benefits that are allotted to coders will only serve to give them more incentive to do so.

When you say "coders" and "they" in your post, please define whom you mean? Likewise, with "members"? What's the differentiation? I'm a member. I'm a coder. This is the site to discuss vBulletin customization and development, is it not? That's why I'm a member. That's precisely the kind of discussion which is being intentionally hobbled.

This site has been co-opted; it isn't a "vBulletin Customization discussion community". It's a club. You join the club by releasing hacks, which has become synonymous with "contributing to the community". You're either part of the club, or you're a "user", which has become synonymous with "newbie". Your role as a user/member is to download hacks and click the almighty "install" button. Be nice. Don't irritate the coders. You also have the staff, whose role is to... ??

What about people who 1) don't necessarily need or want someone else's hack? 2) because they are experienced developers and 3) want to learn some of the more intricate aspects of the vBulletin API and/or source code? by 4) having intelligent conversations with like-minded vBulletin users?

That is the group disenfranchised by the current setup.

You gain access to a private forum for those who have released modifications. I don't recall the be nice and don't irritate the coders being a part of the equation. Coders have no power over people who treat them with disrespect. Just look in almost any release thread and there's plenty of evidence to this.
vb forums for those who don't need/want someone elses hack, forums for experienced developers, forums for those who want to learn more, forums for having intelligent conversations with like-minded vbulletin users (which everyone has access to):
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=101
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=107
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=102
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=112
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=26
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=24
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=111
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=184
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=92

What you want is already provided for.. redundantly. The forum for those who have released modifications should remain open to only those people who have released modifications.

I agree with tgreer on a lot of things he's said. I also still stick with my last post.

"I can't code and I have no desire to have access to the coders forum."

That's obvious, if you think those links you posted are to "coding discussions". I don't mean that disrepectfully - I don't think more or less of you because of coding ability or lack thereof, I'm just saying, those aren't the kinds of discussions under question here.

Since you can't code and don't care about the issues around the private coders' discussion forum, why are you arguing with me about it? I do have access to it, and I can tell you that nothing there needs to be eyes-only to those who've released hacks. They are, for the most part, development discussions, the kind that vbulletin.com sends people here to see/have. Only, they are hidden, so... what's the point?

I have to join noppid in ignoring you, I guess: the point of this thread, before it was hijacked, was "what changes are necessary to regain those who've left", to which I added "or those who never really participated".

I pinpointed two areas: 1) get a professional staff and 2) open up the coding discussions. Those really haven't been addressed, and now the thread is really just pointlessly bouncing back and forth (mea culpa). If you don't agree with my ideas, fine. If you think things are fine, ok. My goal is not to persuade you; I had hoped the administration would address the issues, and they haven't, so I posted at vbulletin.com and will patiently await the outcome.

hmm.. php coding forum, mysql forum, html questions, server configuration, how do I questions forum, quick tips and customizations, custimization forums for templates, phrases, graphics and styles, general modification discussion forum, vbulletin programming and styles and graphics articles, programming discussions and styles and graphics discussions. Exactly which of these public forums don't fulfill your request?

Even if they're discussing how to be a better dad, how to earn more money or how to code in their private forum (all things which I could benefit from), that's their choice. Its a forum for them and they can use it how they want.

And this thread, as you mentioned, was for those coders who have left.. you're conjecturing that they left because the staff gave them a private forum? And you're trying to label the forum for the coders as a general coding discussions forum, which it is not, and which I showed you there are many, many general coding discussion forums which exist already.

I never disagreed about your staff comments, though I think there are other ways to improve it without hiring 'professional moderators'. As you can see the staff have already listened to your comments somewhat and have stopped disrupting the thread.

I cant code, but i really want to learn. Thats why i am happy that v.org has provided lessons fore those who are interested. ( peterksa)-
I have just not have the time to join them yet.
So i really want to learn and gonne do it one day.
Untill then, i mean that i have no bisniss having acsess. I will mostly do more harm than good. ;)

You can blow smoke all you want. If those forums are good enough for your arguement, they are also good enough to argue against it.

If all those forums satisfy our needs, there is no reason for a private forum.

Why would you put yourself down like that? How could your reading something cause trouble?

That's just rediculous that this 1337 crowd now has people thinking they are not good enough. It's absurd!

The private forum for people who have released modifications isn't a general forum for learning php, it isn't a general forum for helping modify vbulletin, its a forum for people who have released hacks here at .org to talk about whatever they want. If they happen to use it to discuss code, that's their choice.

What arguments are there against the forums which I listed? They are general forums for all licensed members to ask questions and learn about modifying vb. Everyone has equal access to them, is there something I'm missing?

He didn't put himself down, he said he wanted to learn how to code but that he didn't have time right now. He didn't say one word about people here on .org making him feel inferior or inadequate.. your twisting of his words is absurd.

<sigh> Ok, I'm going to assume you're generally curious/confused about this issue and want a real reply. Here's what's missing: the coders, the discussions. Why? Because they are in a private forum.

I tried on a couple of occasions to use the public forums. The threads went unanswered. I tried Google searches, found just the threads I needed. They pointed to the Coders Discussion forum, which by then had become private.

And that forum is specifically for coding discussions; it is NOT a general chitchat forum for modders. The rules for the forum state:

1. General posting rules must be followed in this forum. (link)
2. Please, stay on topic (coding for vBulletin and anything that goes along with it). In other words don't use this forum for general chit-chat threads. (emphasis mine)

The fact is, all those public forums COULD and SHOULD be used, by the vb.org coding community. But they aren't. The quality coding discussions are either held in the private forum, or, increasingly, on other sites entirely.

But didn't you say they've only been private for a few weeks? Haven't those forums been around for a long time? If the coders and discussions are missing it has nothing to do with a few week old private modification authors discussion.

Questions go unanswered in a coders own modification release thread. Giving everyone access to a private forum for people who have released modifications will just take away the little incentive that coders have to release their work. Giving coders some incentive, how little it may be, is a good thing.

I understand that you may be frustrated at the lack of responses or help for your coding needs, but trying to pinpoint the private forum for those who have released modifications as the source of it all isn't going to change that. If there's little discussion in those forums (the general public code discussion forums) right now then maybe you can set the example and start answering questions in them. If you keep at it then others will join in and soon the people you helped will be helping others as well. Modification authors should still have a forum where they can talk amongst themselves though.. to talk about whatever they want.

Are you kidding me? You have the audacity to tell another member/license holder to step up his game if he wants to play in the sandbox!?

This is supposed to be an open development enviorment so that can happen. Your reasoning is flawed to suggest that someone needs to learn elsewhere to be entitled to be in a private forum.

No one should have to lower themself to that as a means of access.

Yes.. if you want answers, start giving them. Treat others how you want to be treated, bring some talent to the table if you want others to share theirs, pay it forward. How dare I!.

I didn't say anything that people had to learn elsewhere, I suggest they learn right here. If the public forums aren't being used to their potential then lets figure out a way to encourage their use (my suggestion was for people who know how to code to start using it, even if they're the only one) And just because someone knows how to code doesn't mean they can use the private forum, its only for those who have shared their coding knowledge in the form of a modification that can gain access to the modifications author forum.

You keep making their forum to be something its not.. Its not a forum to help answer questions from vblicense holders, its not a forum to give a resource to license holders to know how to modify their boards, its not a forum for learning. Its just what it is, a private forum for people who have released a modification. What they talk about there is up to them.

so requiring people to help others (charity) instead of letting them get something for nothing (greed/selfishness) is a bad thing? That's a characteristic we don't want?

Bloody hell guys... Chill.

Coders forum.

Who cares? It used to NOT be there, now it is. Personally I think its useful for coders to discuss things relevant to them (i.e. hacking vB) that is not of use to the average member here. Hell, rename it to a contributer forum. Hell, for that matter make it public, I doubt you'll get many average users of the site posting in topics centered around data managers.

Regardless, who freaking cares? This thread is diluted with personal attacks/defenses and in the end, many (from both sides) come off looking pedantic.

The root of the problem is that those that give to the site feel unloved for the giving. This thread isn't going to change that. The actions implemented by admins lately will help to do that. Give them the time and space to see if it works. If not, give them the courtesy to try another angle.

And on that note - those whining that people should contribute because without this forum they wouldn't be able to write code. I say screw em. Actually lifting up the hood and spending the countless hours trying to figure out how to code and code for vB is something that should be celebrated. .org or vB is not 'owed' for that - persistence and patience and a willing to give is what's owed.
For those benefiting from that. Tell your coders 'Thanks'. For those expecting it, click here.

Just my odd thoughts on the situation.

New 3.6 code is out. Nuff said here.

Hehe. I think I'm way up there myself. Thank goodness for the testing board. :)

More than likely I'll wait for the release to become Gold.

I'm probably waiting for gold to go live. No matter what version I install, I'll have 14 templates to deal with it seems. But it's nice to test and preview.

Yup. I'm looking forward to it myself. :)

Interesting thread. Has to be said its a bit sad if .org is going down certain closed doors route which is what is happening if certain hack development tips and discussions are now out of reach, thats a huge distance to where .org started out. It also wont help future coders as the new plugin system means users who install really see nothing but the results (I started a thread on this a while back).

No I dont write many hacks, yes I have released even less, barely at all here. Most hacks are allready here that I would use, many do what I want many need more work to do what I want, I dont generally pester for the extra I try to take that part on myself, having been installing hacks for some time I have had the benefit of seeing the code and where its going in the past and have some understanding of that code, and have taught myself by trial and error and the search button for extra info how to make some things do more what I want. The extra info to me is as important as the hack itself.

However I fully understand releasers needing a venting room to throw stuff, I have seen many completely ridiculous posts which seems to be getting worse and not just here on .org either by users who say nothing but it dont work and a flame away at the author.
Perhaps hack authors should be able to click an uninstall for such abusive installers and deny support above whats allready posted until its fit to reverse that.

There will allways be those who have no respect for anything and there will allways be those who appreciate whats contributed be it info or complete releases.

Its harder to force any respect into those who cannot respect but its dead easy to lose the appreciators by penalising them for the actions of those who dont.

Bingo!

That's what moderators are for. Delete the post, warn the user. If the abuse continues, ban them. Plus, the coders discussion is NOT a venting room. Any such posts would be explicitly against the rules of that forum.

In which case if the coders/stylers forums is purely code tips & discussion with a few mods security issues then all the tips and discussion posts need to be seen by all licensed members, this is most useful to all us old skoolers here (I know lots of these have moved one for whatever reason, but theres still some of us left) and one of the only areas newcomers will get to see much code. Remember not all newcomers are total noodles that have less intelligence than a bean. I am no master coder by any means but it doesnt mean I cant get the basics and work with it. But if it cant be seen then it cant be worked with, thats getting to be closed source, which I beleive is against the sites rules. Also those who tweak do provide much support in addon threads to those who dont have the knowledge or have got lost in trying.

Closing a coding discussion forum to oldies and newcomers is inevitably going to reduce future mod makers and tweakers who all contribute in one way or another, some more than others, some much more. It will become an almost comeplete segragation users will contribute no more than click install and maybe rate and rarley learn anything and the coders club will become there for the few which will dimminish in numbers.

Results inspire appreciation, visibility insires new talent.

Security issues are another matter whereby the how tos for replication etc should be relativley private in the first instance at least, a fix should be provided asap by whoever has the power to do so and if thats going to take a while longer all who clicked install should get an advisory mail, and that should be inside 24/48 hours, most mods carry a page which has some form of easy google search term so finding sites with a modification that has a security flaw is easy for those wishing to cause harm.

its not a coding discussion forum, its a forum for coders (people who have released hacks). From what you guys are saying, the problem isn't that there's a private forum for them, its that people don't contribute to threads about coding.

As far as closed source, talking about code in a private forum doesn't qualify as that as far as I can tell (I'm sure there's some code talk in the moderator forums as well). It would be releasing a hack where people can't access the code wouldn't it?

Maybe a good idea would be for moderators to copy threads which don't have sensitive/personal information from the private coders forum into a pulic area once the thread has run its course.

nitro, even though you may not think its useful, you could always post what edits you have done or tips that have helped you for others to see because you never know who might find it handy. This will help bring more content to the coding discussion forums, which in turn will bring in more users/contributors to it.

I also agree that coders should have some more control of their modification release threads as well. They shouldn't have to deal with members who are tearing them or their work done (as long as they can distinguish between contructive criticism and pure contempt).

If you read my post you would see I say tweakers do contribute greatly, some more than others, and not just in advising on specific tweaking questions but you will find many minor support answers come form those who perform personal tweaks but dont actually release much if anything.
This is why my post count is not that high despite the fact that I am actually the oldest member thats participated in this thread, because some people do read the threads/use search and mostly get the answers needed without asking a Q thats been answered a dozen times, releasing is another game altogether as theres a responsibilty to it, which I like many others dont have the time for, doesnt mean whats been posted by us has been useless or we have just grabbed any hack possible and ran off saying nothing.

If every tweaker was to simply post every tweak made the modification threads could get very dificult for the author to support, but tweaks do have a good input in the past here and some authors also take some of the select extra ideas on board and even improve them at times. That said the way some rules are tightening up its also becoming more awkward for tweaks or even temporay updates/how to update to be posted when the authors away for sometime for whatever reason, this is bad side effect to being a .org that permits strict copyright in releases, as it leaves many who cannot work it out in a prevoius series or dropping features they have become acustomed to. Good job Jelsoft is proactive for security in most of the series but still doesnt help those left behind to move on. yes coders need time out like everyone. On this I think coders should accept a set time limit for releases here to make an new series update else permit it to be passed on for the new series (other terms could be made to help this work better aswell).

So if a coders forum isnt discussing code and coding methods, doesnt seem to be much of a coders forum then really.

I wasn't trying to say your posts were useless, I'm trying to say that you should post even the little things that you do because they really aren't useless.

As you said its not good to keep posting it in the authors thread, but maybe if you kept it all in one post it wouldn't be so bad. I know there's lots of hacks that go unsupported and there's many kind users that end up taking over or just posting their changes in them.

The coders forum is a coders forum for the people that use it, not for the content inside of it.

For the last time, and this time please listen, EasyTarget: the private coder's discussion forum is about detailed coding discussions. That's all it's about. Anything else is strictly against the rules for that forum, which I posted. It is not a "contributors' lounge", as you are tending to paint it. It's about hardcode coding discussions, the kind that this forum is supposed to have and be about. The kind nitro wants to see. Please stop posting about an issue you've already stated you don't care about, especially since your preconceptions and speculations about it are wrong. Thank you and good night.

I obviously care about it or I wouldn't be posting.. nice conclusion though. I said I don't care to have access. I think coders deserve recognition and other benefits for the work they do, a private forum is a very small part of that. More benefits for coders = More coders that contribute = more modifications = more users = more coders, etc.

If the coders forum's purpose is just for detailed coding then they need to change its purpose to just be a private forum for coders.. *If they still want to talk about coding in it, great, but then we wouldn't have people whining about some little detail like what the forum description is.

*yes I agree, it'd be beneficial for some of those discussions to occur in the open

Your appreciation is appreciated heh ;)

Create a coders' forum if you must but allow other members to apply for access to the usergroup which will allow them access to it. To me, as a simple peddlar of tin, a forum should only ever be hidden if there is sensitive information in there which should not be viewable by the general membership database (for example a staff forum). There is absolutely zero benefit to creating a forum, making it hidden, when the information could be of interest to those who have not yet written a hack. Make it viewable, even if it's read only unless you have posted a hack (in which case you can then create threads and reply to others too)