I've sat here reading this thread resisting the urge to reply, but I have to at this point.

vB4 is good, it could be better if development continued on it.

XF is good, and it is getting better.

vB5, while a great idea was executed poorly at best and is in many people's opinion a complete loss. From a technical standpoint, the internal workings just aren't server friendly and it really doesn't seem to be getting better. That doesn't mean it won't get better, but it will be a long road to make it something viable for use.

IMHO, the better approach for vB would have been to progressively improve upon vB4. But there seems to be a pattern of aborting versions and releasing completely new, incompatible versions every few years. This is what alienates people and makes them fear that by the time vB5 is viable for use there will be vB6 to worry about.

The one thing I agree with is XF's business model, namely the yearly fee for updates. That is a consistent cash flow that fuels development. vB should take a look at that. It would retain customers and insure compatibility as development takes place.

None of what I said is bashing. It is merely my opinion and isn't intended to bash anything or anyone.

You know there is a difference between bashing that you will see constantly on XF forum toward VB just to win sales vs actually pointing out some facts. Facts can be sometime true or misleading but there is no denying in this

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/external/2014/03/63.png

Or this behavior of censoring


https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/external/2014/03/36.jpg

--------------- Added [DATE]1394230582[/DATE] at [TIME]1394230582[/TIME] ---------------

http://youtu.be/_BMT6BfxR7w xd

I've no idea what these images you keep posting are supposed to signify. From the posts I've seen that you've made over on xf.com you deserve to be placed in moderation..but again, that is just my opinion...actually if you behaved the way you have on any forum I run or administered I would probably have banned you a long time ago - to me you are just looking to keep stirring things - and I don't blame any admin for taking that stance with you.

--------------- Added [DATE]1394231208[/DATE] at [TIME]1394231208[/TIME] ---------------

The thing that "annoyed" me about vB4.x is they decided to halt development on it just when it was becoming a decent product...it took them so long after release to get it almost perfect then they decided to concentrate solely on vB5 - or that's how it appeared to me.

I really love how you're turning the story around. You know one thing i dislike is when someone runs around in a circle, it becomes tiresome, read the 2nd page of this topic. Certainly you don't encourage this sort of practice i.e., censoring, bullying and bashing. You either stand aside or don't support it and there are others who will support it but they have to admit it so we can all be clear about it.

And since you know me so well, can you tell me what did i actually do wrong for my account to be restricted for several month without me knowing? Better quote how i behaved on XF based on my posts. I only found out about it few month later when i tended to reply to a liar, one of XF staff Brogan.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/external/2014/03/63.png

And the 1st pic is a solid prove from XF staff that they are aware of bashing VB, individuals, competitors and sites and they have allowed it in the past and tried to tighten it later but it appears to be going and going. It is good thing that it is there for a prove so we don't have to go an extra mile just to prove the point that XF loves to bash VB and XF staff allows it and censor any critic against XF.

Ok we're done here, next time, please reply with backed factual information instead of just throwing words around.

I will make your job easy Gemma, here is my entire thread history on XF.

http://xenforo.com/community/members/katieh.25651/ Look up my threads/posts
http://xenforo.com/community/search/4887300/ (you have to login to look up the url, XF loves to restrict member's threads from appearing to guests - yet another bad SEO may be)

I want everyone to see how these guys love to censor those who will criticize XF. I have nothing to hide, they do, and Gemma won't find anything in my posts to indicate that i actually acted bad and gave XF plenty of troubles for many month, you know throwing words around that are false isn't funny, it is bad. If you say something, you should back it with facts.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/external/2014/03/36.jpg

Now you know the truth about XF.

Wow! you came back.

Argumentative much?

How ironic though. If you were a non-verified license holder here at vB.org -- You'd have minimal to no access to post in the support forums.

Why you'd insist on posting over at XF.com, when you obviously abhor the product and the people behind it, is beyond me. You have no XF license. Your obvious intention is to bring negativity into the XF forums. You are a shit stirrer.

I agree with Gemma. I'd have banned your butt a long time ago.
The reasons:

1. You own no XF license.
2. The pot does not need to be stirred.
3. You have no business here!
4. Bye. Holla back when/if you become a license holder.

J.

Adore XF vs bringing negativity ? Do you even see how contradicting you are? like seriously. Sorry i am not a hypocrite.

And I am not talking to you now, I was talking to Gemma, better work on your logo design instead of putting fake words https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....1&postcount=63 it is offensive to web design when you use complex words that aren't even justifiable. This actually tells me few things about your character.

I like the way your brain works, but i think we are going to go for something a little bigger --> banned = no license holder, you're amazing :0)

You've proved enough, i am done with you.

If you want to say that you have issues, that is fine, but i don't.

I've watched personal attacks through this entire thread and I'm surprised it's still open. I would have closed it or at least deleted a hell of a lot of posts and warned the posters by now.

The thread has taken an ugly turn from what I think it's original intent was.

@nhawk

You currently release modifications on both platforms, is there much difference between the two in terms of coding?

There you go again Katie: Nothing of substance to add so you throw in a totally irrelevant insult. http://a.imageshack.us/img130/2959/nonoft.gif
Here's a suggestion for you ==> Go back to school. I said ABHOR Xenforo, which you obviously do. Whether you know the definition of abhor is obviously at issue.

For your educational purposes - enlighten yourself at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abhor - where you will clearly see the meaning:

Furthermore - Please *try* to refrain from slinging insidiously horrid insults my way.
It makes you look like a buffoon. It truly does Katie.

Next...

J.

Between vB3/4 and XF, there is a fair learning curve but nothing too wild. I'll be the first to admit that I am still learning the XF way of doing things and I discover things with each new add-on I do.

At this point I am comfortable programming for either platform. But I have to say I prefer coding for XF. I've been swamped with people moving to XF and wanting my custom mods converted so I'm getting a lot of practice. :D

Congrats on the success!
Might I ask why you prefer coding for XF?

J.

There are quite a few reasons. But one of the biggest ones is the TMS (template modification system). I can manipulate templates without ever actually touching the templates. So an upgrade to XF has no effect on my add-ons.

Another is the direct access to literally every function in XF. It cuts coding time considerably once you get the idea of how XF works.

And finally, if done correctly one add-on can't interfere with another. So I have very little worry about a mod conflicting with another one. But I still slip up once in a while and have to correct a couple of things here and there with this one.

The entire process is almost like opening a kitchen cabinet and picking what you need to put together a good meal. ;)

As we saw from the documents released during the lawsuit they were bound by a 1 year non-compete clause.

XenForo didn't become a thing until the day the non-compete expired.

Part of the lawsuit was the fact VB felt this meant they were competing / breaking the agreement by working on XenForo (before it had a public name.)

The reality is however that the precedent set in both the State of California (where Internet Brands is based) and the UK make non-compete clauses unenforceable as a practical matter. Had those been the only charges in the lawsuit IB may have had the moral highground they would have easily lost the case.

But to make it clear, it is not XF, it is the Zend framework http://www.zend.com/en/ and since XF back-end is built using zend, imagine i have a product back-end built using Zend, Cakephp, Yii or any of these wonderful framework, any web developer familiar with the framework and learn it, can create great addons without affecting the main template or hassle.

So credit is to be given back to Zend framework not XF whereas VB uses its own built framework that is built from ground up.

Just as i describe it, opportunists.

The Zend framework has nothing to do with what I said and the features I spoke of. I suggest you understand the code before commenting about it.

You're building addons/features for XF and they are using a Zend Framework for their back-end. If i hired a web developer expert in using the Zend Framework, it will be very easy for him or her to code any addon or feature for XF b/c it is using Zend framework for its back-end.

XF doesn't use that much of Zend Framework...the knowledge isn't as transferable as you'd expect. When people refer to "using" ZF, they mean the full stack framework, particularly the MVC stuff. That is all custom in XF.

Now, if a programmer is competent with Zend Framework, programming is programming, and add-on development for XF is more like regular programming. It's not as random as it is with vBulletin.

True. http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=78018

I find that surprising. Here in Canada, non-compete clauses are common in the IT realm. I have signed many in my lifetime and generally they include a clause that states any product design based on the intellectual property or product line of the former employer within 'X' years becomes the property of the previous employer. I have always found that to be a reasonable term of a contract. But the law is the law and it there have been precedents set, you have to live with them.

I don't consider that to be opportunistic, I consider it to be good business sense and a smart move. If you are skilled in a certain thing and you know what you can put on the market, and you know that you can do so legally and above board, I see nothing wrong with doing so. If you find yourself in a dead end, where you have no room for growth or advancement and the conditions of employment have deteriorated to be not in your favour, there is nothing wrong with branching out on your own. Without such 'opportunists', technology would have ground to a halt decades ago.

I still think their forums are very poorly moderated and more like a kindergarten than a place for adult discussion, however. And that does reflect poorly on the company as a whole in my eyes.

I wouldn't call them this if they didn't had to resort to bashing and drag the entire Vbulletin community into sympathizing with them when they knew that what they have done would result in a litigation against them, they surely expect it. They also didn't honor the position they were in, they made living from VB for 9 years, as well as gaining fame, and when they had the chance to leave and make XF, they bash it and aimed to split the VB community through their excessive criticize of VB 5.x. Them criticizing VB 5.x to show how XF would be better, is a disgusting move on their behalf.

And now they resort not only to bashing by allowing their community to bash VB constantly, but for their staff to bully and censor as well and they don't even apologize or revise their actions. In my eyes they are unprofessional and their action should be pointed and judged so they can learn that what they did and keep doing is wrong and unprofessional.

Not the type of company i would be proud of. Certainly they lack good communication skills and they've revealed that they don't hold good principles and manners. They obviously didn't like what i say about them on VB and decided to keep the restriction on my profile, they see my comments as troublesome to them and that is why they are insecure.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/external/2014/03/36.jpg

My conversation with them through tickets, is like running around in a circle, they keep throwing words just to justify their action, and after back and forth for a while i had to ask myself, what is this, is this a company with different level of management or just a regular website selling a product.

I moderated a rather busy board for 7 years and the way I always looked at it was that membership was a privilege, not a right. If someone did not follow our rules they could choose to leave or have the decision made for them. Personally, I see no reason why someone would remain a member of a board where they did not feel wanted or disagreed with the policies or the way it was run. It's much better to save everyone a lot of frustration and aggravation and to go elsewhere.

I think you need to understand what the framework is. The framework is a set of common, every day routines that are used in just about every program out there. The entire idea behind the framework IS to speed development without having to write those from scratch.

Kier gave an excellent example in an interview. The DB routines in the Zend Framework. Why on earth would a developer want to reinvent the wheel and write their own DB routine when it's all available in a package?

In my case a lesser example would be in one of the first add-ons I released for XF. I could not find a routine to check if a node was a forum. So I wrote my own routine always knowing there had to be one in XF and to keep an eye out for it. A while later while working on something totally unrelated I found it and had one of those 'I could've had a V8' moments. The code I wrote was removed and replaced with the call to XF.

Compare the Zend Framework to Microsoft's .NET framework or C++ redistributables. Just about every program on your computer (if it's a windows computer) uses those. And for sure every windows program I've ever written use those. They are all common routines that interface with windows. People could write their own, but why on earth would they want to? There is nothing wrong with using them and in many cases they are required.

You just hit the nail directly on the head, with that opinion, IMO.

If there was a constant source of revenue, they would be able to focus on the core product - rather than being sidetracked to constantly create new sources of income. (to keep the lights on) It would remove the urgency to abandon what works and move on to a drastic change, IMO.

Hopefully some leadership steps in and steers this ship in a healthy way, because I really like VB4.

It's a shame that a couple people turned this discussion into a jr high school level bicker-fest. Enough already :)

Rhody

I strongly disagree with a company charging for updates to the same version that you purchased. The only thing someone should be paying for is a complete upgrade to the next version of the software. Paying for incremental updates provides very little incentive to release a bug free product. Release a buggy program and then charge for the fix? I don't think so. For the price being charged, all updates should be included until the next version is released. I do not have to pay for updates to Microsoft Office or any other program and I would not pay for updates to a BBS software either.

I also like this policy more than the previous one. Also for existing customers for $199 to renew my license i get vb 4.x (which is why i renewed my license last year) and vb 5.x as well, and that wasn't bad.

To compare

Xenforo is for $140 for new customers + they are adding an enhanced search version for $50 , seriously ? Shouldn't this be part of the core feature, so Xenforo out of the box would actually cost anywhere from $190 - $250 , then you will most probably pay for mini addons to have vb default core features on Xenforo.

If i were XF, i would give my customers the option to use Sphinx Search (VB 5.x already has it built into their system, i think), it is the best out there http://sphinxsearch.com/ instead of saying Enhanced Search for extra. So you're giving me a forum with a not so great search function and you want me to buy the enhanced version for $50

XenForo Enhanced Search - $50*

XenForo Resource Manager - $60*

To summarize

Do you really love this as well? You're actually forced to renew for a higher price if you bought an addon and later decided that you won't use it and the only way to get rid of it is by losing it and removing it so you're not forced to renew for a higher price. So you end up losing the entire addon price you originally paid for. So like throwing your money away.

Jeremy a XF staff
No, once you've bought an add-on the renewal increases. You can't renew just XenForo.

Brogan a XF Staff
You can have the add-on removed from your license, but you would need to purchase it again if you want to use it in the future.

Vs.

Vbulletin http://www.vbulletin.com/en/purchases

New customers pay $249 so to round $250 but you get to download VB 5.x , 4.x and 3.x and if you don't like VB 5.x, VB 4.x is there with so many features and wait and see how VB 6.x will look.

Then you don't have to pay yearly like $50 to renew your license, rather you pay a one time fee for the next version and company do know if the next version doesn't improve so well, it won't sell good, so they have to improve it.

--------------- Added [DATE]1394321173[/DATE] at [TIME]1394321173[/TIME] ---------------

XF Staff are extremely intimated by my posts. My account was restricted in a way that all my posts and topics gets moderator, but Today i found out that i can't

1. Pm my friends
2. Can't reply on anyone's profile or mine
3. Can't create any thread or posts.

I am like a lurking guest to them, without the official "Banned" tag under my username.

They are giving me an account that i can't do anything with it, might as well ban it and say to the public that they are crazy hypocrites :0) Seriously grow up. Are you really that intimated that you have to stalk this thread and take action on Xenforo.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/external/2014/03/33.jpg

At least here i am pointing out few facts instead of simply bashing like you allow on XF :

Katie, we have no control over other forums, so please do not keep posting about it.

If you have an issue with how they run their site, take it up with them, dont keep bringing it over here. They are not going to change their minds because you keep going on about it here any more than we would change our policies based on what people post over there.

Move on and discuss the topic.

Thank you.

Sure, I just added this today because they read my posts here and appear to be intimidated by my comments and took further action without justification today.

I will continue comparing the differences between VB and XF without bring this story up. Vbulletin deserves some positive facts to shine about it. It is been a while now.

Hope everyone's had or are in the midst of having a great weekend! ;)

I'm no coder - but I think I understand what you're saying. And what you're saying is that XF is much more accessible in terms of coding modifications than vBulletin is...?

This is likely one reason code developers who were once quite active here at vB.org have left by the droves - wouldn't you think? Like with the vB 4 codebase changing between upgraded versions ever few months or so, breaking modifications.

From all appearances - vB 5 Connect has not bettered the situation at all. Example: A year after vB 5 hit the scene - there are only 46 modifications and 17 templates edited shared in the modifications area.

Have you coded anything for vB 5 Connect? If yes - Was the coding process a better experience with vB 4? If you haven't coded for vB 5 - why not?

Perhaps. But the general consensus is that vB's "own built framework that is built from the ground up" (especially as concerns vB 5 Connect) is an incomplete shit!

Thanks for this clarification.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/external/2014/03/32.jpg

Anyway... I'll try not to confuse you with my complex words ((sigh...)) But as a tried and true vBFangirl since 2006 -- I most certainly wish vBulletin (under the inept ownership of Internet Brands) would get its act together. vB has had some of its positives brought to light... That was called vB 3.8.7 --- From my and a great many other vB license holders' perspective though, vB 4 (with the exception of vB 4.2 perhaps) and now the vB 5 bomb is doing absolutely nothing to deserve similar praise.

When and if the time comes to again heap praise on vBulletin - I'll be happy to recommend the script to my hundreds of clients, whom incidentally, are quite happy with the graphics I've provided them. ;)

That time is obviously not now!

J.

vBulletin 4 code has been stable for years- that didn't drive away any coders- just general downturn in forums overall- forums are getting hit all over, losing traffic to Facebook, Twitter and other mobile friendly social media. There is less demand and less people willing to put in time to code- not to mention most of the important mods are already coded for VB4.

Hmmm - it was my understanding a mass exodus of sorts happened as a result of vB 4. Developers and designers closed shop. Whether or not we can explain this away by saying forums are loosing traffic to social networking sites is probably a moot point... I think it's safe to agree that the introduction of vB 5 Connect did not help one bit.

It may also be debatable as for how "stable" the vB 4 codebase is, especially when you consider the vBulletin 4 tracker lists hundreds of bugs marked as 'unresolved'

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/attachmen...1&d=1394415684

I know I know I know - You've told me before, "There are a number of bugs in VB4 in the tracker, yes- do they really affect the day to day operations of a forum? Barely if at all..."

Whatever the case may be ==> These numbers are startling!

And since this is a thread about vBulletin and Xenforo - Take a look at Xenforo bugs as a comparison:

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/attachmen...1&d=1394415861

What's wrong with this picture Joe? :D

J.

Can XF be trusted to accurately and honestly publish their bug report numbers? While I trust the VB community, and have been moderating VB boards for many years, and am aware of the odd problem that does pop up, my limited experience with the XF online community has not been favourable at all. The image you included in your post is really nothing but user reported bug threads on their board and I think anyone who is honest is aware how they 'regulate' what is posted there.

Also the comparison of bug reports are illogical.

Xenforo is new with limited features and resources, and it is bound to presumably have less bugs than Vbulletin. Unlike Vbulletin which has extensive features.

Xenforo's "Resolved Bug Reports" category is filed with topics with prefixes such as "Duplicate" bug ,"Not a bug" hence it is not accurate at all, just a bunch of topics with reported issues.

42 Pages of "Not a bug" that gets put in the "Resolved Bug Reports" section , and 22 pages of "Duplicate" bugs (why not merge?), how is that an accurate report. It is a broken system.

http://xenforo.com/community/forums/...s/?prefix_id=7
http://xenforo.com/community/forums/...s/?prefix_id=8

Not to mention the "Cannot Reproduce" prefix is 8 pages! (8 x 20) around 160 bugs which can't be reproduced. Why would they ever move all these bugs if they can't reproduce them, why move them to the "Resolved Bug Reports" category - they aren't resolved bugs. Just tells me how much XF is accurate with their bug #'s // sarc

http://xenforo.com/community/forums/...s/?prefix_id=6

VB bug tracker always merges duplicate bugs and their bug report is more precise.

Xenforo is a good script and Kier is a fine coder. But I got a very bad taste in my mouth. I remember a few years ago they announced a special introductary sales that will last a few hours. As a developer I wanted to get a copy so I start to build mods for them. So I went there and asked how would I know when that sale will occur since it was not possible to subscribe to their announcement forum?

I was told I had to come every day and check for it. I complained that I had no such time to come and hang out by them. Then Brogan told me to keep on checking their twitter. To that I replied why would I have time to go on tweeter every 2 hours since that sale will last only a few hours? It could start right after I came and missed it the next day. To that Brogan replied to me: Well take it or leave it. So I left, really disgusted with that kind of arrogant attitude.

Here by vb, the big guys have always been correct toward me, and my personal opinion, 4.2.2 is still the most powerful forum out there.

Good point... I suppose.
But is not vBulletin's bug tracker user reported bug 'threads' as well? To imply XF (the big bad evil entity :p) is lying about the amount of reported bugs it has resolved is not fair.

Afterall - like vBulletin's user reported bug tracker - it's in the best interest of the community to report actual bugs and to see them gone from the script. We all know how vocal communities can be - you know what I mean. And of course we all can see how it might be in XF's best interest to hide actual bug reports. But unlike your experience, my experience with XF online community has been rather sweet. Furthermore - nothing in my past years of experience dealing with vB and XF would lead me to believe Kier and company would do something so devious!

Also - before someone says something about the devious comment: Putting someone who is disruptive and a troublemaker in the moderation queue does not quite qualify as devious in my opinion. Neither does waiting out a 365-day non-compete clause -- then again pursuing a passion for coding fabulous forum software! ;)

The actual point of my post was to refute Joe's assertion that vBulletin 4 is steeped in a stable codebase. Unfortunately - It's my opinion that the vB bug tracker screencaps do a pretty decent job of showing that the code is a little less than stable LOL

I've heard your argument before by a handful of people. I don't understand it tbh. I keep thinking to myself - Why should vBulletin's bloated featureset be an excuse for how buggy it is??? :confused:

----
----

FYI - Here's a screencap I took back on November 30th 2013:

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/attachmen...1&d=1394438358

When juxtaposed with this one taken hours ago:
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/attachmen...1&d=1394415684

The lack of progress in sorting these bugs is simply depressing. Does Internet Brands not care how buggy it's script is?

Ah. How I miss the glory days when Jelsoft were in charge.

J.

I don't blame you one bit. I don't like giving my money to folks who act as if they don't give a damn. Internet Brands for one. They act as if they could not give a damn about the state of their flagship product and how disappointed the vBulletin community as a whole has reacted towards it.

My experience with XF has been really great though - so I can only say I've heard a few folks mention the BroganBot or whatever in passing. I've heard a few other not-so-kind nicknames as well https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/external/2015/08/1.gif

Apparently you're not the only person who got their feathers ruffled by him. I don't know him. So I can't comment on that LOL

J.

Listen, i ignored you once here and didn't reply to your stupidity - attacking me after 2 pages that has gone and i ignored you. You obviously feel lonely and have nothing better to do other then posting nonsense on and on.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....&postcount=111

It is pretty easy to point out ignorance one after the other, don't you see yourself being the broken record ?

Don't you see how stupid your comment is ? You're comparing law students who studied 3 years in college to gain their JD and later took the bar exam to a para-legal who never did any of that.

ARE YOU STUPID ? or acting like one. Stop talking about me because i am not interested in insults like you, you said you have issues, go fix them

I certainly don't have any issues but if you are saying you have issues, then you better go and address them.

If you have something nice to say, say it. If you don't, don't say anything.
Don't talk to me, this is the end of it. This is not the first time i told you directly not to talk to me, yet you continue to do so in many topics I post in.

vB4 isn't bad for coding add-ons at all. But XF is IMO much easier. However like any software, you need to become familiar with what needs to be done. That applies to vB or XF.

I had coded two of my add-ons for vB5, but vB5 is so unstable that for a while there I would have to issue updates to my add-ons nearly every week with each change to vB5. That's not acceptable to me and I pulled my add-ons because of that. If vB5 stabilizes and becomes more server friendly, I will most likely re-work the add-ons and release them again.

For most of my clients, there are two reasons for changing from vB to XF.

1) vB5.. The ones that are changing just don't want to use it. Those that tested it removed it within 1 day from their servers because of the slowness and load it placed on their servers.

2) vB said they would not fix the multiple file upload problem with the flash uploader. When a user had to fix it, many of my clients felt that was unacceptable and pointed to where vB4 was going.

Now, I'm NOT on the XF bandwagon. I tried to get every client that is switching to stick with vB. But the tide is changing and to stay competitive I have to go with the flow and code for both vB and XF.

And people might ask how many clients can this guy have that it makes a difference? As a regular registered user on my site, you see 14 forums on my site. Each client has their own private forum to discuss their servers/sites with me. And as a result, I see 91 forums.

All but 2 of those clients have chosen to move away from vB. One of those moving is a big board with 1,000 visitors online at any given moment.

How can I have so many clients? I keep telling people to ignore my join date here. I've been around a VERY long time in the private sector. When I say a 'very long time', I mean one of my closest friends put the first entertainment related web site online. I've been around as long as, if not longer than him. I've been involved with vB modifications in the private sector since almost vB day #1.