These are the same people who want their rights imposed in every country in the land yet at the same time DENY our women their fundemental rights in their countries.

Go figure

this is why you wondered if the penalty in France of breaking that law would be stoning?


Your statements don't match up with each other.

Wrong on several counts.

No-one gets "their rights to wear what they want to wear" taken away; but they lose the right to wear the burka (if this law goes through), a very specific and limited exception. There is an important difference between the actualk facts and your blanket, emotional statement.

Your statement is ridiculous if you consider that full nudity is forbidden on most French streets (not all), as it is equally forbidden on pretty much all USA streets. Do you consider banning nudity to be taking away peoples' rights to wear what they want to?

If you don't, your argument falls apart.

If you do, your argument takes on the appearence of one of those purist claims that have nothing to do with the real world.

Next off, claiming that those who want to see burkas banned are bigots is another blanket emotional statement.

You might be right, but you would have to show one hell of a lot more evidence to show you are right.

As it is, you appear to be wrong. Bigotry is rather unmistakable, and no-one here seems to have displayed any real bigotry as yet.

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Not true.

Source: Wikipedia

Your women rights affect on our young-men and young-ladies ! But burkha is not ...


This is unacceptable in Islam rules and at the same time in the country rules which are taken from Islam rules to affect other people.

What an audacity? Animals even never do such things . Huh !!!

Women here in Saudi Arabia can walk on public without burkha . As we explained .

UKBusinessLive
Don,t say Muslim Country loudly . He was just one person who called himself "ruler". In fact, he was layman "laity". He was Atatork who began banning Hijab . Why do not you ask what happened to the society at that time ? Muslims who refused the ruler and wear Hijab are banned from learning . Just read the history books of authoritative historians and you will know many facts about Muslims.
Try to Read this :
http://www.hejabweb.com/English/wearing.html

Young Turks don't get no gratitude, obviously.

I'm not stupid Lasto - I understand this - but please don't be a hypocrit in your arguments. State what you truly mean, be done with it and call it a damn day - But to sit and argue that you just want your law of the land respected when in actuality you are being a bigot is both counterproductive and silly.

Jacquii.

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Thanks for critiquing my post :rolleyes:
And yes - no real bigotry is displayed as of yet because it's cleverly disguised as giving a damn about the debasement of woman. But anyone with a braincell in their head can read through the threads and interpret what's really going on in this thread. Unfortunately you seemed so wrapped up in my commentary to see that fact. Anyway - no matter, as this thread is getting rather boring actually - so I'm unsubbing so that you guys can continue believing that the purpose of the French law is to strip away oppression for woman, when you know good well that it isn't. It's interesting to see the truth rear its head and real motives peeking out. End of story.

Jacquii.

I love it - really do.
Anyway i hope they ban it worldwide.Our british traditions are always getting stamped on by other religions so its about time we stamped back.

Im in favour for the ban, simply because whenever i have visited another country i have always obided by their laws.. not just because i have too, but out of respect for that country.. I only wish that our government here in the UK would have the backbone to do something similar, but they are too busy trying to please everyone except the taxpaying public with their unelected PM..

As for Lasto's post, as an Englishman i've got to agree.. In the uk it seems PC to celebrate all sorts of foriegn national days or religous events etc.. Yet when it comes to celebrating our own English / British events we get criticised and thn the PC brigade step in and ban things, Like Christmas celebrations in areas of high foriegn population, and dont get me started on ST Georges Day as that just more or less gets overlooked, god forbid anyone in the UK displaying a ST Georges flag

End of the day, there should be just one rule for everybody!! and that rule should be to respect the law of the country you are either visiting or living in!

No worries, happy to be of service.

Oh, that just seems to be yet another emotive statement without facts.

Well, I too always like to think anyone with a brain will agree with me.

But I do recognise there can be honest diifferences of opinion.

Disagreement is always so tedious to deal with, eh?

Now look at whats happening :eek:

Al Qaeda affiliate militants have threatened to launch "dreadful revenge" on France after President Nicolas Sarkozy said the burkha worn by Muslim women was "not welcome" as it was a sign of "subservience."

The French leader told lawmakers at the Palace of Versailles in a special session last week that "The burkha is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience." "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic," he told members of both Houses of parliament.

The comment sparked a racial row and was condemned by Islamists in many countries. Now militants of al Qaeda's North African network have called on French Muslims to react "with the utmost hostility".

"We will seek dreadful revenge on France by all means at our disposal, for the honour of our daughters and sisters," an Islamic extremist website was quoted as saying .

"Our Mujahadin followers must not remain silent in the face of such provocation and such injustice," it said in a message.

French security are on "high level of vigilance" as authorities reaffirmed "their determination to fight terrorism". "Our security services will remain on their continuously high level of vigilance against any threat to security in France," a French government spokesman was quoted as saying.

Such a nightmare, especially when so many Moderate Muslims have tried to hard to respect and Blend in with their Western neighbors.

Al Qaeda and the Taliban will simply go on killing innocent Men, Women and Children to get their message across, These Terrorists are more than happy to kill their fellow muslims, putting Muslims who live and work in a western country in a bad light.

We also need to remember that there is a difference between How a country is run and religion, you cannot mix the two and expect answers.

France has decided to Ban the Burkha because it cannot prove if Women are Forced to wear it or Not, We all know Shariah islamic laws are the ones the taliban Practice

Muslims feel that Shariah has been misunderstood by Christians, who have tended to concentrate on the demands for harsh punishments such as amputation of a hand or foot for theft and public flogging for people caught drinking alcohol.

Under the Shariah laws in Afghanistan, the Taliban's religious police, formally known as the Department for Prevention of Vice and Promotion of Virtue, enforce the Shariah laws.

For example, a man’s beard must be long enough to protrude from a fist clenched at the base of the chin. If it is not, he is subject to punishment.

Under Shariah in Afghanistan, women are not allowed to work in any field except the medical sector. The Islamic law of Afghanistan does not allow the employment of women in government departments or international agencies. Women should not go outside their residences with the exception of those working in the medical sector.

Shariah also places restrictions on what women can wear and whom they can see. It forbids women from wearing jewelry and make-up and from making noise with their shoes when they walk. If a woman does work outside the home, she is forbidden to sit beside the driver when traveling to and from work. Stylish dress and decoration of women is forbidden.

There have been reported cases of the beating female doctors and female medical staff at the hospitals where they worked.

Mixing the Countries laws and Religion, where i think theirs a big misunderstanding, all you need to do is read some of the Posts here ;)

It is even more difficult for the people in those Islamic nations to understand a government that does not enforce morality as well as civil law. Since they do not understand the principle of the separation of the government from the religion, when people in Islamic nations see Western nation’s magazines with nudity or near nudity, they believe that what they are seeing is Christianity!

After all, they are told that the United States is a Christian nation. When they see a satellite program that originates from Playboy, they think that is Christianity! When they see a television commercial for any kind of alcoholic beverage, they think that is Christianity!

They do not understand the separation of government and religion. They cannot understand why those who produce such materials are not punished by the government.

As i said earlier, western countries are tolerant of other religions, there are millions of muslims that live in western countries quite peaceful and enjoying life. Its when miliants like Al Qaeda, and the Taliban attempt to force muslims to kill others that we need to keep an extra eye out.

Last year there was a case in Florida about a woman who went to court filing a complaint, lost and had her driver's license revoked, because she refused to remove the burkha to take a picture to place on license. Now I wonder how the burkha fanatics will react to that?

I agree Lionel, Its silly to even think a woman in a Burkha could drive a car, afterall she's not going to have a very good field of vision, what happens if she causes an accident??

http://www.breitbart.com/images/2006...lt-163x245.jpg

I wonder what the UK Police whould make out of this, Imagine i went to work tommorrow with a paper bag over my head and a couple of small holes for my eyes, I'd poop myself i guess, as well as getting arrested for Dangerous Driving. :eek:

Sarkozy: Burkha is not welcome in France!

This is the title of the topic . and some earlier posts without facts are not acceptable and far from the goal

If you want to understand other religions, then you should not ask their enemies who give false info .

Read articles from this site not from wash-brain sites please.

http://islam101.net/human-relations-...html?task=view

I do not like to repeat myself many times .

So theres hope for the women in Afganistan??? apparently not according to the Taliban ;)

[QUOTE=Sayid;1842222]Sarkozy: Burkha is not welcome in France!

This is the title of the topic . and some earlier posts without facts are not acceptable and far from the goal

If you want to understand other religions, then you should not ask their enemies who give false info .

Read articles from this site not from wash-brain sites please.

http://islam101.net/human-relations-...html?task=view


I noticed how u mentioned in the same sentence Religon and Enemies - was there a point to be made here ?

So you mean all French women that born in Franc have to go out
of there country if they want to keep wearing the hijab because you and Sarkozy doesn't like to see them

If that what you're mean then you are selfish and you remove this people from their basic right as citizens

I think the basic right as a citizen means you have to follow that countries rules and regulations, failing that you've given up your rights as a good citizen and are viable to punishment.

if everyone stuck to the rules there wouldn't be an issue :D

What exactly are a humans basic rights ?

Its these same human basic rights that is making everyone PC at the moment.

Protect the guilty - forget the innocent.

Who said that Taliban men are true ?!!!! Who said they apply Shariah as our prophet Muhammed peace be upon him did And as Allah told us ? !!

If you and lasto already read the articles that I posted HERE, then you will no longer ask me questions ..

The articles clarify the exact meaning of Islamic rules . Any guest here read the articles will know that Taliban are wrong. They reflect wrong meaning of Islam . This is what I mean when I post the links . And the enemies as our friend ask are those who want to show that Islam is bad . simply ;).

We know the rules and we respect the rules if they are fair . Not bigots' rules.

All around the world people are writing different versions of what they expect should be done, and they belive in it.

Then we should belive in a countries rules when we visit and not expect them to change, just because we want to be different. I'm not an expert in islamic laws, but since there are so many conflicting entries then we need to have some set of standard rules to go by.

The Burkha, is mainly an arab religious costume, you cannot expect every muslim to wear it, especially those in Western countries. There are millions of Muslims, good Muslims all round the world that don't wear, Burkhas or headscarves, That doesn't mean they are bad Muslims.

The simple solution if women like to continue wearing the burkha, then they should, in an islamic country, But if you go to a country where Christians and jews make up the majority then you need to respect their religion, or not go there at all.

Thats what Religion is about Respecting your fellow man, They respect your laws, you respect theirs, whats so hard about that???

I choose not to read the link you posted because i believe your life is run by what is in a book - whereas mine is run by `How i feel when i get up` :)

And I believe that you fear to see the droit/reality of your life and I would rather to not trust in your feelings because they are not cherubim ones . However, it is your choice to read or not. :)

I can,t say those who don,t wear Hijab are BAD Mulsims, but they are not good.

Yes, good I,m with you here. This is stated in holy Quran that there are many places to go and if you stay with them you may be get affected with their beliefs.

But we are talking about France, I read that there are many Muslims there who live in groups. So, they do respect other religions, they can,t see hi women you should cover your body as Muslims .. No, they don,t command, prevent and allow. Christians and jews also should respect other religions. If Muslims in France are very small, then they should better to go elsewhere.

To sum up, the problem of Burkha in France is solved after what Shaikh Al-Tantawi said. Muslims can cover their whole body but face .

Sorry if my posts bother anyone here. I have gained lots of benefits and learnt a lot from this topic :)

Thanks Sayid for your reply.

You must surely be aware that their are millions of muslims in western countries that do not agree with wearing the burkha, That only makes them bad muslims in your eyes not thiers, surely??

Their must be millions of christians around the world that don't go to church, That doesn't make the bad Christians, they worship their faith in their own way, and i'm pretty sure the same goes for they western muslims.

I think this would be the best bet, I really don't think that France has a problem with Muslims covering up but with the security threat by Al Qaeda, and the Taliban, now more than ever is the time to go by the laws of that country.

People who wear the burkha, sho respect the host countries laws, and respect is a big word here, look at the Picture below, how do you think these women would feel if they were deported after their little demonstation??

http://www.islamiswar.org/burkha.jpg

Islam teaches that nations are in one of two major categories - dar-al Harb (house of war) and dar-al-Islam (Muslim rule). Any nation that is not Muslim is therefore, by definition, at war with Islam. Muslims cannot be expected to maintain loyalty to a nation that is at war with their religion.

Some Muslim scholars contend that there is a middle ground, dar-al-Aman (land of truce), where Muslims are free to convert others to their religion without interference from the non-Muslim government. Although this is a legitimate teaching, the supporting definition, unfortunately, is somewhat shaky and there is no central authority to declare which nations fall into this category.

I feel that most western Countries fall under dar-al-Aman (land of truce).

Its good in the UK that we have Freedom of Speech, thats something which is very hard finding in certain countries, You certainly wouldn't find women doing that in Saudi arabia.

Thats Ok, I think even i've learnt alot too ;)

UKBusinessLive, I appreciate you, and what you do. You are well moderating the thread as you planned. Getting some odd photos, and set barriers on mind.

People should be allowed to wear each and every clothing piece they want, being it religious or not. In the world, so many people thinking and wearing different each other, some of them are fan of EMO, some of them are atheists.

Before discussing, we should become aware of why muslim women prefer to cover their head or body.

Please;

the second part,

To the ONE who is sincere

Hi Adom7

Thanks for your posts, and i argree with that 100 percent, But the problem stems when you live in another country and are expected to be loyal to that country, by respecting its laws and rules.

Can Muslim citizens be loyal to a non-Muslim government? I feel that most muslims that move to the west want the freedom thats so lacking in their country, and yes they want a happy and peaceful life and live and work besides other religions with no problems but the problems arrise when we truthfully answer this question...

Can Muslim citizens be loyal to a non-Muslim government?

Many are loyal, of course, but it is in spite of Islamic teaching. Unlike other faiths, Islam is not just a religion but a political system as well. The state is intended to be inseparable from religious rule. Islamic law, or Sharia, is complete and not designed to coexist with or be subordinate to other legal systems.

Muslims are not meant to be ruled by non-Muslims. The Qur'an is very clear that they are to resist unbelievers by any means until Islam establishes political supremacy. This doesn't mean that everyone must be forced to become Muslim, but rather that everyone must submit to Muslim rule.

I feel that when certain groups, start wanting to impose Sharia, the government will look at ways to prevent this. The Burkha has been used as a political tool in the past and will do so in the future.

We also need to remember and this is very important that in the western world we live in a Democracy, were Men, Women and religions are treated as equal

Islamic law is absolutely incompatible with democracy. It is a theocratic system with Allah alone at its head. Allah's law is interpreted by a ruling body of clerics. There is no room for a secular political system in which all people are treated as equals.

This is way when you visit a non muslim country, you MUST abide by their Laws, theres no second choice, The law of one man, one vote is heretical to Islam. The testimony of a Muslim woman is worth only half that of a man. Jews and Christians are never to have equal standing with Muslims under the law (and certainly never in a position of authority over Muslims), and atheists are to be killed outright.

UKBusinessLive, there is no need to discuss over this thread, cos I believe that neither you nor I won't change our thoughts.
Finally, I would like to say most of the european people recognize Islam but only odd photos or radical islamic groups like damn usame etc.
Need to be in peace, and respect other religions, that's the point.
I never show or talk about the null and void Christian groups because I know everyone has difference godliness.
Just need to be in respectful.
nice to write to you :)

I agree, no matter what we say, no one person can make a country change.

I'm hoping by having a debate like this we can see the whole arguement from different angles, after all there's 2 sides to every story.

Its definately been an interesting debate.

Now why can't everyone be like this ;)

Take care :up:

I Disagree

I aisagree

Any Particular Reason Mr Samy?? ;)

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Is that in the middle of the two??? :rolleyes: