As long as they are XHTML 1.1 Strict compliant.
ROFL! XD
I hate looking at my early day stuff, I feel so dumb :p I just know that its there and I used to be dumb, thats all I want to know XD

I think that many many of the replies to this thread shows the problems with the forum.

Find a chit chat site for the non issue remarks and help folks who come here for assistance not nonsensical chatter.

But hey that is just my opinion.

A community of non coders can not grow into a community of coders if the coder discussions that they may learn from are hidden.

You make some good points, but the whole "community" thing is a flawed concept when there is segregation of the learing class from the we already know class.

In normal society it's called oppression when the haves and the have nots become too far seperated.

Furthermore when the staff incites the peanut gallery to play as minions, playfully in spite of a serious thread, making light of the subject for entertainment, the writing is on the wall.

Agreed... that's what I mean by my statements that this site isn't run professionally. When a thread gets hijacked into meaningless banter by the staff itself, what hope is there for anything here to be done in a mature, professional manner? The signal-to-noise ratio is horrible here. Guess I'll check back in another 3-6 months.

There's still forums to talk about coding which are open to everyone.

If someone were to talk quantum physics with someone else on a level of 2+ years of experience, I would understand less than if I asked the questions I had regarding advancing my own knowledge.

So what!? If they only people taking there are the have nots and the haves are hidden behind closed doors, how does that inspire community participation?

What it does is leave a group of people out in the cold hoping to be tossed a bone when they need it by the other group. Maybe if they could read the 1337 coders forum they could just read and solve their own problem?

What's the big secret?

When the flow of information is hindered, the big .org community idea is meerly propaganda.

I've got to agree with Azhrialilu on this. vB.org has always been primarily about the best code hacks and lasagna... well maybe not so much about the lasagna, but that could change any day now :bunny:

You blatantly ignored my post didn't you... Or is it simply ignorance on your part? I have not seen a single thread in the coders discussion forum that could possibly be of any use to a newbie learning. Please point me to one, or if you are unable to do so, please stop acting like we possess the Holy Grail in there but refuse to let anyone else have a drink.

Well, I'm not going to defend my actions, but will suggest that you need to lighten up. Too much serious talk is what got us to this point in the first place. When a thread gets to flogging a dead horse, so the speak, it is time to move on and make things happens instead of just complaining about them. A little humor goes alot further than tempers flaring. I will refrain from any humor in this thread in the future. Now you'll have to find someone other than Staff to blame. ;)

We "label" people as a way to help us identify, associate and categorize them. There is a natural human tendency to want to compete against one another but that has everything to do with the growth of the whole and not the individual. What's more powerful, however, is the need to relate to one another, human being to human being.

The "us and them" is nothing more than ego-trippin'. It has everything to do with looking down on those who do not fit into a particular group. It's about clashing. There is no resolve to this kind of attitude, just animosity, hatred and disgust. Having an ego is one thing (we all have it and it is a good thing to have) but the whole superiority complex of we stick our claim because we're better than you gets old.

In a successful business the heads of companies value every employee, client and customer. They understand the rules that everyone has a role. Sure, some roles are more important than others but all of the people are treated with respect and dignity. See, everyone wants to feel and be important.

This community (vB.org) is important to all of us in some way. By treating everyone else with the highest quality can only benefit the community we share. :)

Define "newbie"? I'm an experienced, professional programmer, have been for many years. I'm new to vBulletin, yes, but not PHP or SQL, or web development in general. There have been several times when I've done a web search for a vBulletin topic/question, been directed to the archived Coders Discussion, come here to find I couldn't access it. In one such instance, I had to PM someone from the archive thread (who, it turns out, was very helpful; they just didn't read the "other" sections to know I had a similar question).

I would turn your question around: what discussion in the private, hidden coder's forum, needs to be private and hidden? The question about which function detects spiderbots? The link to the sitepoint thread about OOP? I don't see any thread in there that couldn't/shouldn't be posted in a public programming forum.

You assume that people who don't release hacks here are "newbies" and thus couldn't fathom your code. That's ridiculous. That forum should be closed and all of the threads moved to the "Programming Discussions" forum.

actually, you need a backend for code to display and be readable ;) Its like a car having no wheels

I define newbie as a person new to PHP/MySQL, or with such limited knowledge of said languages that vBulletin context provides a bigger confusion than standalone code.
To take the sitepoint OOP thread as an example, it couldn't be posted in the public "programming forum" because said place is not fit for discussion. That is for asking questions, or so I believe since the "PHP/SQL/HTML" forum has been eradicated in the latest forum restructure.
Now I am fairly certain that the coder posting the link (I havent seen the thread in question) didn't have some form of newbie question (read above definition) regarding OOP or that thread in general, and therefore it is only natural to assume that said coder wanted to open up a discussion amongst his fellow coders regarding what the article states and whether or not any coders planned to implement some of the strategies in said thread.
I find this offensive. Your assumptions of my thoughts or meanings are not only completely off the mark, but they also try to make me look bad. Please refrain from making such assumptions in the future. If you have any questions about some of what I write, don't be afraid to ask.
Now let me clarify: I don't give a shit if a member is a PHP developer (ie. deleveloping the actual software) or has 20+ years on his back in the computer business doing PHP and all other forms of web coding with or without vBulletin. If the member does not care to contribute to the community, I see no reason why said member should be allowed to partake in discussion between contributors. Not to mention the fact that the Coders Discussion forums can be used to discuss security vulnerabilities in one of the coders' hacks; information at least I would not wish to be disclosed to the general public. As an example, Alan-CIT yesterday helped me fix one such vulnerability in one of my hacks, and while this did not happen in the CD forum, it very well could have.

Nonsense, this forum has only been private for a week or two.

Which is why old discussions, which have been archived, still show up in Google Search results. Come here to find them, though, and the door is closed.

And there it is. And you wonder about all the complaints regarding an elitist, cliqueish attitude here? I thought that was one of things that was going to be fixed. Evidently not.

I disagree strongly - I advocate full disclosure of security issues, so that those affected can take immediate action. Why hide such issues behind closed doors? If I'm running a plugin with a security hole, I'd hope that the plugin author would make a public posting of the specific issue, steps being taken to address it, and a timeframe for the fix.

I think what it boils down to is that some coders want a semi-private cloister where they can code and hack without being bothered by newbies, except insofar as said newbies gratefully install their hacks. You know, part of me sympathizes with that. I just don't think that's what .org is meant to be. That can't be what JelSoft intends, especially when the default answer to most questions on .com is "ask over at vbulletin.org". This is, for better or not, the "official" site for custom vbulletin development. To me, that means a few things, including active, open coding discussions, and professional moderation. For those who want a private 1337-coderz club, I would say "it's time to grow up".

I would say that, but apparently I'm in the minority. So, time for me to slink back into the woodwork, and rely on vbulletin-faq and vbhackers and daniweb...

You lost me at... "I find this offensive" and then went on to say you "don't give a shit", Revan.

Actions like that are the pinnacle of the problem.

License holders should not be supject to segregation nor such elitist demeaning attitudes. .org is either an open development enviorment or not.

You aren't in the minority, I assure you. The "general population" membership of this site will move on to other sites that operate more professionally and less like a "coders club"...it is simply a matter of time unless this culture is turned around.

members are not going to leave, stop spreading gloom and doom.. members will come because this is the best place to get modifications. If the coders leave, then the members will follow. (number of hacks released/number of quality hacks released will go down, less content on the site, less reason for people to come)

You guys make it sound like members and newbies can't ask coding questions anymore if there's a private forum for coders. Nothing is going to stop people from asking questions nor from people answering them.

While that may be true, what is the point of any closed discussion on an open development forum? Especially when, as license holders, we are all sent here equally to get modification information.

I assure you that there will only be a few that move on as the general population here really doesn't think one way of the other about what a few members are complaining about.

I'm sorry, i just find it a waste of time to argue about making the coder's forum public. Coders sometimes would like to discuss things among coders. Take away that forum, people will just pm each other. Either way, some things are best discusssed amongst you would like to discuss them with. Nothing you guys say or do can obligate a member to post things to the public.

As license holders who are encouraged to come here, we are all equal. You should care. The corporation you represent should care.

That is what this is about, treating all license holders as equals.

I cannot for the life of me comprehend why anyone in this organization would segregate it's customers or support any kind of closed discussion that is intended to be open in the big picture for the benefit of the customers.

And that's all good if it happens. The license holders that are sent here sould not be segregated.

Honestly, this is me just being curious. The staff forum that they have here is probably generally used for staff to discuss positive changes around here, that benefit us customers. Would you like them to make that public as well?

The general license holder is in no way being segregated. Last time i checked, a coder has to actually give back to the community in order to even be a coder. If anything, the coders forum allows coders to speak among themselves in order to better serve "the license holders". Remember, we are general customers and license holders to.

No, that is company business. I don't expect them to show me their opnions being discussed about this or any other topic. I expect them to treat everyone they sell a license to in the same way though in public.

When one license holder can access information another can't, that's segregation.

we're not all equal here.. I can't code and I have no desire to have access to the coders forum. If they need or want a place to talk among themselves, let them have it.. who cares?

Just think of the coding forum as a private forum for those who help with the site by releasing code, just as the moderators have a private forum for those who help with the site by doing whatever they do.

Yes, because giving small perks in return for contributing to this site is BAD. Oh please.
As another example, say that the administrator of very large forums like TAZ or some other board joined you forum. Would you immediately give him access to the Mod/Admin forums just because he knows how to administrate a forum? This is no different, beyond the fact that it's easier to attain Coder status on this forum than it is to become Administrator on most forums.
And what about the cases where the author is not available, either through explicit desire or involuntarily?
Example; vBShout. Brad released the fix for the security issue there. Was this issue made public? Was explicit code posted as to how you could exploit this? I think not. If that was so, then a hacker would have to do nothing more than to ally himself with a licenced member of this forum and thus have potentially thousands of forums available for exploiting.
It seems to me like you are saying that potential revenue lost for hundreds, maybe even thousands, are less worth than the idea that coders should not gain any benefits even though they spend up to years of their time coding solely for the benefit of this community.
Because to me, that sounds pretty damn retarded.
Whereas with a coders forum, vulnerabilities could be discussed amongst those that would be less prone to exploit them - after all they themselves could be in the same boat at one point...
I just don't see where having a public discussion about it would be beneficial.

Security vulnerabilities should be private at all times (by this I mean the specifics, and POC (Proof Of Concept) code, not the fact that there is a vulnerability), and reported to the vendor as soon as possible.
If the vendor is unable/unwilling to provide a fix, 3rd parties should come up with a fix, in this case in the form of Staff updates.
Never should POC code be posted public, because of abovementioned exploit possiblilties.
Surely you must see how posting such code public would cause a severe loss of revenue or data?
What coders forum are you referring to, because I have yet to see a single hack being released in that forum...
I think you might be misunderstanding what forum we are talking about. I am talking about the Coders Discussion forum where coders discuss things that are of no value to newbies or learners.
Part of me sympathises with the notion that coders should release their work for free and hardly see a thank you in return... actually no I don't.
Not to mention how the fact that this is the official site for vBulletin modifications has no relevance whatsoever to whether or not there should be a coders discussion forum or not.
For the kind of users like you, who feel that it's wrong for coders to get a small bit of recognition for their work, I would say "drop your communist attitude and realise this isn't the Soviet Union".
You may not be in the minority in this thread (!), but given the fact that you are completely unable to listen to the words of the other side of the coin, I would agree with the notion that you should venture to those other sites.

And you lost me at the point where you completely ripped those two sentence parts out of context and try to fabricate your own little meaning so that you can carry on a dead argument.
What Im saying is what I wrote in the above post, what would you do if an administrator of WebHostingTalk joined your forum and demanded to be an Admin (even if you don't need admins) just because he knows how to administrate forums? Would you, like I said, give a shit about his experience?
If they are so goddamn excellent at coding, why don't they release something?
No noppid, the pinnacle of the problem is that users who show no interest in improving this community whatsoever come waltzing in here and demand to be treated as equals (I mean this in ways of recognition (ie coders discussion forums), not as human beings) alongside those who do contribute. A ridiculous idea which has been long pronounced dead, but which somehow keeps getting flogged by people like you and that guy above whos name I wont even try to spell.
Oh for the love of all that is holy, this is a sodding FORUM, not a concentration camp! You are blowing it so way out of proportion, it's a wonder you still have the slightest idea about what the core of the matter is.


To everybody who is going to argue this post, please actually answer my quotes in their fullest, instead of cutting out bits and forming your own idea of what I said. Read the message. Read the message. Read the message.
It is becoming increasingly difficult not to insult people who can't seem to read a message in context, and I don't know how much longer I can go on. And the minute I pop, the thread gets closed. And if the thread gets closed, you'll have to repeat your counterproven statements in a new thread.
Nobody wants that, ok?

Thank you. You have no idea how refreshing it is to read a post by someone who actually understands one of the reasons as to why the coders forum is in place.

You are talking out of your backside mate. No threads from that forum are indexed in google, it was started fresh, a blank slate...

Dean, you're completely wrong in this case. The forum was openly viewable for quite some time, prior to it being made private. The threads within were archived, the archive was indexed and web searches still return those threads. However, the code within cannot be viewed unless you're a member here. Try to access those pages through the site, though, and you get a "You're not authorized" screen. This is provably and demonstrably true; I PM'd Xenon and Erwin about it, and finally had to contact the thread-starter privately in one instance.

Revan, I'd respond to your latest, but really can't keep a straight face long enough.

I see all the same problems:

A private Coders Discussion, with no compelling reason for it to be private. This serves to create attitudes like those clearly in evidence in this thread, causes the "public" coding forums to receive little attention, and puts undue emphasis on the "competing for Installs" amateur coding mentality vs. the true hacker coding ethic of open discussion.

A moderation staff that barely moderates, and who in fact seem to be responsible for most of the inane chatter that goes on, and who've never established and don't enforce professional standards of communication and conduct. While you cannot enforce lucidity or rational thought, you could at least do something about profanity and off-topic comments.

Until JelSoft gets the house in order here, they shouldn't refer people to this site.

I disagree as I think moderation is not as big of an issue as babysitting has become in some cases, which is what it seems to have become with statements like this.

I take your contributions to this thread as a case-in-point. If I've said something offensive, used profanity, or broken a site rule, then by all means do something about it.

If you'd like to make a thoughtful response, as a staff member, to the issues surrounding the "Coders Discussion" forum, I'd certainly like to hear it: I'd welcome a reasonable, logical reply vs. what we've been getting.

But implying that I'm a baby who needs babysitting, how is that an appropriate response from a staff member? Looking through this thread, the posts that need the most attention from a professional moderator with high standards, are YOURS.

I need no other evidence of the problems with staff and the coder mentality that I've been discussing, than this thread.

That's exactly the way I feel after having to reply to idiotic and repeatedly counterproven statements in this thread.
While it would be too much to ask to not have to read complete banter and nonsense not even trying to argue valid points, at least SOME manner of proper discussion could be employed.
Alas...

I was referring to the thread needing babysitting, but that was lost in the translation, it seems. If you feel my posts are not of Professional value or high standards, then maytbe you should read them a little closer and a little more objectively. And I for one have always been against the "us and them" mentality that everyone seems to be trying to push.

If you'd meant the thread, you would have said so. Instead, you quoted my statement, and made your "babysitting" comment in reference to, quote, "statements like this". Now you claim that oh, no, you meant the entire thread? Please.

For an example of how a moderator should reply to critical remarks, see Kier's response on vBulletin.com. Now, he may or may not agree with anything I said. He may think I'm a complete idiot. He may think my suggested changes are outlandish. He could have said so. He didn't: he acknowledged my post, said he was aware of the problems here, and that changes were being made. He did so without engaging in personal insults or opinions, and didn't make any statements he'd have to foolishly backtrack to cover later.

Your first response is to attack, then claim you didn't attack, and then suggest the fault lies with me and I should read your contributions more carefully. Brilliant.

honestly, I haven't noticed a problem, other then threads like this come up..lol
or when ppl leave, they start a thread..

I'm not "happy" that some of the great hacks/mods and apparently styles are gone. but I understand that ppl grow with time, and some may just be running out of time for sites like this.

I'm glad I was able to receive the support and hacks while they lasted..

I bought vb without even knowing about the 100 unofficial vb support sites there seem to be now, having vb.org here for me, is just frosting on the cake :)

Well, since you intent on reading posts and applying your own twisted meaning to them, no wonder things are the way they are when certain individuals would rather point fingers to places where the problems don't actually exist thus creating more problems. Things will never get turned around doing it that way, sir. ;)

[high]* SaN-DeeP adds more cheese.[/high]

Vborg is a good extra offer to the original vBulletin software.
Its totaly up to you if you want to suply hacks ore not.
The hacks are here, free fore use. Why are you winning excactly?
Let the coders do there thing and aprishiate that they are willing.
The vB.org team has done what they can to make changes here fore the last weeks, give them some credits fore that at least.

What is twisted is that all license holders cannot access the same information.

That is the point here. There are many poeple that could read and benefit without infringing on anyone.

The fact that one license holder can imply another license holder may be a pain in the whatever and they need a "private" spot and then Jelsoft indulges it is truely wrong and possibly illegal. There have been class action suites over less.

Did you pay more for your license then the non-coder? Why should you get more benefits for your licesnse purchase then another license holder?

Why don't we have the White's section and the colored sections too?