Same thing here Mephisteus. I was a newbie, but coders from the vb2 days were very helpful to me. They supplied the motivation that made me stay up for days and miss work, or school. All I wanted to do was code, code, code. If it wasn't for the coders, I would not know what I know now. I might have went else where to get my information, but nothing is better then getting info for a script directly from a offical site.

Thread moved to site feedback.

Thank you Brad.

Yes, thank you. A good start on open dialog I think.

I've read all the posts here, it did take me a few hours between other tasks and now I have to say I agree.

Things have changed a great deal in the last 4 years since I became a Jelsoft employee. Originally vBulletin.org was run with an iron fist by Chen, Bira and myself, coders were treated with a high respect by customers since PHP was still this large confusing language that no one knew. The community was also much smaller, a large percentage of the hacks were all written by a handfull of people.

Now in my opinion it seems that vbulletin.org might be a little understaffed from the modifications site and unable to implement all the suggestions that people make and those people who bash coders regardless of what they implement are completely out of order. I think a zero tollerance policy could solve that, though maybe the problem could be the way vbulletin.com sends customers here.

I'll speak to Wayne when I next see him since the majority of the proposed things would need discussion between everyone involved before they were implemented, a chat could be an appropriate starting point between Jelsoft, vBulletin.org staff and the top coders.

Maybe some coder appreciation could be shown with free t-shirts :)

Top coders? What do you mean by this? Master Coders only?
Im not trying to start something, believe me I am happy that you are willing to take this to the appropriate authorities, but I am wondering where you draw the limit on who gets to discuss that.
I feel that seperating the coders and members is a necessity, but internally seperating the coders leads to a sort of respect hierarchy where ultimately master coders feel superior and might start to look down on adv. coders and coders.

I apologise if I brought that part way out of context, Im just wondering if I could get a clarification.
Yeah, I am worried about not being in the cool club. Sue me.

Thank you Scott, and to everyone who had a hand in defusing this and opening discussion.

Scott, I'm really happy to hear that. Not that talking to Wayne part, the T-Shirt part! Just kidding and all joking aside though. I'm really happy to see that us as a community has started to reach some of the Jelsoft staff with the situation on hand. Lets hope this issue can some how come to a positive ending.

Thanks for the post Scott. Personally Im for bumper stickers. But then again Im in the camp that thinks a bumper sticker is a cure all (which says a bit).

I always hate to see a member leave this community, it doesn't matter if they are staff, a coder, or just your everyday admin. Many of them don't even post to say goodbye, they just silently fade away never to be heard from again. I think this is the fourth thread I've seen like this in my four years in the community, many of these years spent as a member and not as staff.

There is a lot of talk about how this site is going in the crapper, and a lot of people dwelling on things that happened in the past. Instead of dwelling on these things and fighting with one another we need to look at the bigger picture: improving vBulletin.org.

Now to improve you have to go about things in a certain way. You can't decide to 'go on strike' and expect staff members to jump because you said jump. When you do thing like that you make me feel like I'm begin bullied into doing whatever it is you want done. Even if I did try to improve things based on what has been said so far I'm at a lost for exactly what it is you want.

The correct way to go about this is to discuss things in a positive manner, in other words act like adults and realize that while you may not agree with someone, they have an opinion and a right to make it known just like you. This is not directed solely at members, or coders, it is directed at everyone here including staff members, Jelsoft employees, and Jesus Christ himself if he decides to stop by and make a post.

What we have to do is move passed all this negative thinking, so lets try to steer this thread in a direction that will benefit this site and it's users instead of causing more drama. So if you have a suggestion let me hear it by posting here, or in the site feedback forum, or send me a private message if you'd rather not post it in public. I will listen, I will respond, and I will do everything in my power to make the changes the membership requires.

I have a pretty nice vBulletin polo shorts lying about, starting to get a bit worn but I'm sure I could get an extra dozen when I get my new ones.

We'd need to have two seperate groups meet with everyone, I think getting everyone together could intimidate people when it comes to speaking their mind. When I said top coders i just meant those who are active and have released a fair number of hacks and would be willing to at least have a discussion.

I'd like to start with my post here & Revans here.

You will have to filter through alot of our text to see the suggested features.

I second LiveWire and Raven's suggestions, and I've also made a few suggestions in the past I think are worth repeating: here and here.

Exactly. Which is why the following statemnet is so out of touch and detrimental toward vB:

Apparently there are some at vB who seem to think that good coders are in a never-ending vast infinite supply. Their mindset seems to suggest that there is some invisible vast mountain of good coders just chomping at the bit to be here - there isn't. Good coders, and I mean the truly good coders, are like mentors who help the newbie coders to become good coders themselves. Without those good coders here the 'newbie coders' will be putting out a lot of sloppy code, which will eventually upset the vB customers using it, and that will eventually give this place and vB a bad reputation. Good coders here aren't "just" good coders. They secure the future of this site. A lot of you here are probably too young to remember what happened when UBB was all the rage. They disrespected their coders too, and just like here, the good coders all left, and soon afterward so did all their customers. It is said that you can do one of two things with history; you can either learn from it, or you can repeat it. I certainly hope that vB doesn't repeat what the higher-ups at UBB did. I think treating the coders here with a little more respect is a win-win situation for everyone here. First of all it keeps them here where they belong, and doesn't force them to start their own sites. Secondly when vb.org is strong, so is vB the product, at least in the paying customers eyes. Thirdly, when the coders put out good free hacks and support them here, that gives more vB customers reasons to come here, which ultimately makes the vB camper very happy. Yes this could be a win-win situation for everyone, but first everyone needs to take a deep breath and realize that compromises on both sides need to take place before any real progress can be made. Best of luck to everyone involved :)

Personally I do not see a problem with users wanting to help out by coding things for this site, I think it's a great idea and would move things a long faster then the way we do thing at this moment. Perhaps we could set up some sort of dev area that people can visit if they wish to help out, there they can submit code or make changes to existing code if they desire. The only problem with that is security issues, so it couldn't be something that was totally open to everyone.

Forum layout: There are plans to re-order the forums, but it keeps getting put off for one reason or another. I agree it's messy right now and it needs to get done.

Donations: If someone wants to donate I don't see a problem with giving them a button to do so. I know a few people already include a paypal link in their threads now.

Finding hacks: I agree there are issues with finding hacks sometimes. It's really a issue with a lot of things, the search engine tends to give you bad results and the layout we use now doesn't help. Not to mention that layout has changed over the years many times and threads have been moved around.

Giving coders more: I think we should do everything in our power to make them feel welcomed and appreciated. Coloring their username sounds fine to me, as we already give you a title anyway. However I think that is just a gimmick to be honest and won't improve much. Maybe we could pick certain modifications and have someone write a review of them and interview the author. As it stands now the only way you'll ever get on the front page is by having a hack with a lot of installs or winning hack of the month.

The modification 'system': I agree this needs to be improved and has needed it for awhile. One thread just isn't enough for most modifications now, no matter how many template edits and little additions we add to them. What I've always wanted to see was something like sourceforge here. Give the authors a place for users to report bugs to them. Keep multiple revisions of that hack, have a place to release beta versions, separate feedback posts from support posts, have an area for multiple authors to get together and work on a common goal.

I agree that coloring the username isn't going to make all of this go away, but IMO it isn't a step in the wrong direction ;)

And let's not completely avoid the big elephant in the room - a commercial hack area.

A commercial hack area is Jelsoft's call. I'm sorry to say but that is out of my hands and has been for some time now, perhaps when Wayne comes along he can respond to that request for you. :)

Some posting guidelines for members asking for support to modifications is sorely needed as well. A little "Please" and "Thankyou" for all the support and work on modifications goes a long ways. Much more respect for coders is needed and needs to be pointed out to the members more than ever...

That's definitely something that I would be interested, I'm sure alot of other coders would be as well. :up:

I think you have covered a large number of recent suggestions in one sweep there, and since things cannot be changed in a day, there's a fair bit to go at. :) If anyone wants to include me in discussions then just ask, I'm here everyday when not on holiday.

There's gonna be riots for those that don't get included in the discussion :p
I know Ill start one fo sho XD

But onto a more important note: The development of the site. I agree about the security issue, but lets not forget the fact that the hack database (most current example) doesn't need to be integrated into vBulletin files to such an extent as a lot of other hacks here. If there was a SVN repository available for the hack db, and the plugins were stored as flatfiles using include(), then it would be fully possible to have a number of coders cooperate on getting it up and running faster than I drop my pants when visiting a porn site.... eh scratch that bit.
Moving on, I know that *I* would very much enjoy having it on my name that I contributed to the development of the hack db, that would have been great fun as well as getting a sense of belonging to this place. Also, the admins could go through the code and review it and question any dodgy code they don't feel belong there.
So yeah, I suggest major development projects for vBorg be assigned to a SVN/CVS repos so that we can all contribute without risk of security holes.

Almost all members are admins and a lot of coders are running large (even very large sites too) so we do have a clear vision on how to run sites.

Stating that we'll learn if we run our own sites isn't the right way to go. We DO know how to run large sites.

So most of the suggestions are valid and needed to improve/revive vb.org.

One of the important things vb.org should also tackle is the protection of it's code and coders against leaching (licensing?copyright?membership?)


As for members, some of them really should learn to say please and stop flaming after a minute. There are other ways. I always try to stay polite and help out if I can. The least they could do is to hold back on the insults and the pushing.

As for the site itself, a lot of us are coders. I'm sure we can help out with creating whatever code is needed.

I'm sure most of us would love to help out in creating a sourceforge or versioning system. It cannot be that hard with all the talent we have here :)

Pot this is kettle. I think it's time you meet.

I understand your frustration. Rather than making a post that basically is you exploding out the door why not have come to the table with ideas and plans to make this site work a bit better. Contact the staff personally and let them know how you feel. Show them what is wrong.

The lack of updates from VB.org is annoying, I too agree there needs to be some type of order in place.

1. Require a certain number of posts to be able to request modifications.
2. Create 2 Coder Forums. One for Advanced Coders and one for Beginners.
3. Update the main site more rather than when there is a new VBulletin Security Release.
4. Rather than just "Hack Of The Month" why not give Developers prizes maybe even in a cash form to show more appreciation for them.
5. Create a module that allows Developers to release their code in a form that can be purchased. A repository that is user friendly and works. www.joomla.org look at the extensions. That is a clean way of doing it.

Hate to see you go, but thanks for the work you have provided here. I will hopefully find your work around the net if you do choose to continue coding Vbulletin mods.

My suggestion for the first step is to get a team together for development for the hack DB system.
One that is more purpose built than the release threads here. Ideally with a mini bug tracker that will give people a place to submit bugs, get responses and see what issues are outstanding without having to trollop through 50 pages of discussion.
That alone will solve a lot of coder and user issues.

Coders are important, sure, and there appears to be a need for recognition above and beyond that currently provided. Perhaps coders could be involved in vBorg development, be able to open a big project release forum, have the ability to turn on/off a bug reporting system, etcetera.

However, let's not fail to recognize what the 'members' provide. Without 'members' trying and commenting on mods, the 'coders' on this forum may not have found/fixed mentioned bugs, improved interfaces, enhanced features, etcetera. Also, let us not forget 'designers' and graphics.

That said, and not to dismiss comments/suggestions on any side, IMHO there is a certain lack of communication that a rapid fire of suggestions is not going to fix. To wit, there are a few members that download mods only to post them on their sites. Why do staff allegedly do nothing?

The topic of pilfered mods has been brought up several times in the past, and is used here as an example. So, why do staff allegedly do nothing, or is it that you don't know what staff do, or why/not they do it? Same goes for vBorg development teams, as well as other things.

There seems to be an apparent divide, like an us/them attitude, and I propose that 'liasons' become a new part of this site. Why? IMHO this site needs a 'go between' person, or persons, who can elicit responses from vBcom and vBorg staff as to why this and that is such and so.

While I've come to realize that staff actually do listen, I don't think it's always portrayed in the best/clearest light. The point of a liason, a non-staff member, would be to step in and relay why there is, for example, this protect-your-own-mods attitude and what not.

A liason could step into a thread and say, "you know X, it might have been better to say..." and this would go for all staff, codes, designers, members, or whatever the title. A liason could, for example, ask LiveWire what change right now would affect your decision to leave.

A liason is an objective person, as objective as humanly possible, who must be answered by staff, who must be respected by staff and non-staff alike, and who can provide coherent and reasonable answers to questions, all while honoring vB com/org expectations of privacy.

IMHO, if people were more aware of certain things, there would be less of these type of threads.

Liason, what do you think?

These quotes sum it up nicely in one sweep:

I was rather curious as to why it took until post #75 from the thread's poster to offer solutions. Had the solutions been offered in post #1 (along with the concerns) the calling for change could have played out much smoother. The upside: Tons of valid points; downside: the drama. There are better strategies than placing people on the defensive. :)

Members already have a liason to the staff - amykhar :)

Chris

Great, but could amykhar use some help? :)

PS: just an FYI: didn't know amykhar was a liason until today. Hmm. ;)

Lots of good points made from both sides. A thriving community is like a family and everyone will have disagreements from time to time, but in the end we all have a vested interest in getting along and resolving differences. Not being a coder, but just a lowly skin provider *winks at The Geek*, I don't have much to offer other than to say I have released some of my work for free, at a not so shaby expense to myself, and did so only for the satisfaction helping someone else it brings. The bottom line to me is that vBulletin is a rather successful company and would continue to be so not because of the hugh mod community, but because of the strength of the core product. This thread wouldn't even be going on did it not exist, so I personally don't feel that Jelsoft really "owes" any of us anything other than their great support and a hearty thanks for enriching them. I also think, however, that they are astute business people who will react to their customer's needs...it's just that large systems don't always move at a very fast pace. Having said all this, I appreciate the discussion and wish all involved parties the best and a Happy Mother's Day weekend (those of you who recognize the holiday ;))

Cheers!

I must admit that when I got my lisence I was quite excited about vb.org and what will offer me. And I have been rather disapointed. The number of mods available is fantastic, I don't have a problem with that, it is the fact I have had a lot of trouble getting help and feedback on things.

I have posted several threads asking for help and feedback on various things and they have all pretty much been ignored. You try asking the same question at vb.com and they keep telling you to come back here. That tells me that this place has an obligation to offer vBulletin customers quality support with modifying their forum, something I haven't been very happy with and it doesn't make a good impression for Jelsoft.

Perhaps look into getting more dedicated support staff? You can't rely on members to be offering support as the vast majority don't know coding, hence why they come here in the first place.

I'm just a bit curious - was this meant in humour ?

Just wondering because I would not consider her a liason, even though I know she seems to have some strange status here which I've never quite understood (allowing her access to staff forums ?).

If we're supposed to be talking to amy so she can talk to the staff on our behalf, it would be nice to know that :)

No, sir, Chris was serious and accurate. ;)

The vB.com staff do not tell customers that they'll find the answers if they come to vB.org. By linking to vB.org they're giving vB customers an option to explore modding routes.

From what I understand, vB.com staff are employees of Jelsoft while vB.org consists of volunteers. Jelsoft's obligation is to support the core product while vB.org's purpose is to extend it. The protocol for the two are different.

And to think I was alone with these sentiments when I decided to throw in the towel here at vb.org sometime back, albeit without a farewell thread.

I personally get better respect and am more valued when I get paid for my work, so that's what I am doing now.

In any case, perhaps change is on the horizon. If only for the sake of the community at large.

I completely agree with going commercial. I think that good well-tested hacks are worth paying for.

I've paid quite a few people here for the hacks they've done, or bought their branding-free option as a way to show my thanks - I totally appreciate the hard work the coders here do, and I believe there is nothing wrong with asking for some compensation for the code.

And in fact, I pay for the branding-free option, but still leave the branding in, because I want to promote that hack and it's creator to any other vb person who may come by my site, and who might see it and be interested.

I deeply appreciate all the coders here ((HUGS))

So for Coders to get the "recognition" they want, money will fix the job? That ain't recognition at all.

poolking - On your post on page 3, I never said being nasty was professional. I said being nice wasn't the only form of professionalism there is, and then I said replying to suggestions made, good and bad, is professional as well instead of ignoring them.

And Brad is right. It's negative posts, negative thinking, and blaming every single problem on the staff that is ruining the atmosphere on the forum. If people want this forum to improve, I think a lot of people need to change their attitudes around here - to stop being so critisizing of everything staff post, to support staff decisions as well as critisise them in a non-abusive way, to accept when decisions are rejected, and so on. If the community does this, vB.org will become a lot of a better place.

vBulletin THEN DAYLIGHT - Support here is never guarenteed. There are so many questions asked here every day its impossible for all to be answered. As well as that, I'd say.. 60 or 70% never include enough or the right information for someone to support. Once again, another thing that can't be completly blamed on Jelsoft or the volunteering staff.

I'm sure there are many others willing to volunteer thier time, perhaps the staff should make look into adding a few more people. ;)

Members don't need to be moderators to support... if anything, its people who have the dedication to support without needing a status to do it that would be looked highly upon for future moderators. ;)