That's not true, there are quite a few members I know that switched to different software, only to return. Sure some don't but some do.

But you see, you're both missing my point. If you spend hundreds of dollars, and don't do any research on what you're about to buy, who's fault is it when it doesn't work the way you wanted?

Yes you are right and I got it right off, was just playing devil's advocate. Being facetious and a little sarcastic. :)

Some are riding pretty high horses, here. It is all fine and dandy that you have lots of experience and know how to evaluate software and know all the admin forums where you can get independent opinions.

Guess what? Many of IB's potential customers are not. They see all the crap about market leader and worlds leading community software, with hundreds of new features promised. They may even surf around and find many big forums running vB. That may be vB4 or even vB3, but they see: Hey, that has to be reliable software. Then they may even surf the vbulletin website. But guess what? All the critical feedback is hidden away from them. They may even know that bugs are quite normal in software, but they are probably not used to being sold crap in a state that vB5 was in (and in many ways still is).

Are they to blame in part for not researching even more? Maybe. But what is sure as hell is that IB has sold half baked software not once, but twice. I really don't get how you guys really can be of the opinion that this mess is in the first place the fault of the customer. Said customer has every right to state his opinion, and if they want to do so in a place where it is not hidden away from potential new customers, then this is more than understandable. If that is more than you can bear, I suggest you just skip such threads (given the title of this thread pretty much gives away its content, doesn't it?)

Is this what you'll write on IB/VB's tombstone after they've gone bankrupt? Or maybe "technically they were right and their customers were wrong!"

People were happy with their previous products, are happy with their competitors products, aren't happy with their current product. Does the conversation really have to be more nuanced than that?

That link I posted is the Google search results to the term "vbulletin 5 connect reviews." And that's without quotes. The first third-party review on page 1 is a visible one star review. The next result is "vBulletin is dead." The third is "vBulletin 5 sucks". While I disagree with those points as they are stated, the fact is that basic, fundamental research is nothing new, difficult or special. This is basic consumerism.


And other customers have the right to be tired of all the complaining. Especially when we either looked into vB5 and decided it wasn't ready for prime time, or conversely, we're running vB5 and it meets our standards for forum software. We get it, already. And as I pointed out above, the reviews are hardly hidden from someone willing to make the most basic gasp of an effort. If someone isn't expecting dissenting opinions from consumers of the opposite opinion, on one of the products official sites, then maybe this internet thing isn't for them.

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That slices a non-contextual portion of my post, and my overall comments, in favor of hyperbole. What I said was, by now, the surprised, disgruntled threads are wearing a bit thin considering the amount of time that's passed, the number of these threads that already exist, and the fact that anyone with a address bar on their browser could have avoided their own hassles.

Very good points.

And point of note I definitely agree with the thread title. They will have to pry my old school, vB 3.8.7 out of me cold, dead hands.

Perhaps I agree that the surprise shown is wearing thin but that should have nothing to do with legitimate disgruntle. If something isn't fit for purpose, the money should be refunded. Reviews/experience/anything doesn't negate that.

You paid for the download. There is no way for them to collect that back. So what you're essentially saying is, you want the software license for free.

You got it, you own it, you are a vBulletin license holder and you can use version 3, version 4 or version 5. If 5 is really this objectionable to you, why not try the others?

Show me an easy way to go back to 4.2.2 without losing posts and I'll do it immediately. If not, the previous licenses don't help me.

Take a sql of your database and import it to the new database.

You're far better off with v3.8.8 IMO.

The structures are completely different.....this isn't going to be possible.

I have heard some people say there is paid services out there that can do it, and IIRC there were some people reporting converting vB5 to some other forum software then going from that to vB4

"Look before you leap" seems to be operative here.

And we'll take the word of the consumer that they've fully uninstalled the software from any and all websites and have deleted their copy, correct? How many days do you get to return it? Virtually no ordered products have an open ended return policy. You have so much time to return them to the manufacturer. How long do you get to run a board before you've decided you don't like it? Do you go back to one of your previous license statuses?

Software downloads are a tricky thing to ask refunds for, considering you don't have a tangible product to return to the manufacturer. Both Apple and MicroSoft have a software return policy that requires you uninstall the product from any computer. But I imagine there are ways to enforce that, and in those cases you have a disc you can return. Some manufacturers allow return of their software only if the package has not been opened. On the other hand, what you purchased form vB was a license, not a tangible, returnable product. What you're asking for, I don't think there's a business model for it.

I think you're dodging the context here, which is pretty unilateral discontent with Vbulletin. If something doesn't change, like refunds to all downloads, it'll be the end of vb. In any case, they're probably finished - there are so many new startups now that'll take the market.

just a warning if vbulletin dont like what you say about there software they will stop you from posting on vbulletin.com. i can no longer post on there after saying something bad about there release

Not at all. I'm saying that you're asking one company to invoke a standard that has no precedence, or really good way to do. Based on you're own perception of discontent. Be wary of the echo chamber. A bunch of people getting on the same website(s) about the same subject over and over again, is hardly an accurate measure to go by.


If you're not allowed to say something they don't like, why is your thread still there? You're not listed as banned member.

i can post on there again now but funny how my posts was moderated and i could`nt start a new thread in the support forums after slagging vb off dont you think

Be wary of rose-tinted spectacles.
Here's some sort of pretty accurate measure: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forum...ddon-situation

No, not really. You never really said why you couldn't post.

• Do your research.
• Count your costs.
• Also hold yourself accountable for your purchasing decisions.

I'm not really sure how "rose-colored" applies here.

Um, a thread is accurate measure?

I'm sure you're perfectly capable of understanding the context. You do remember that you were the one implying that the criticism of vB5 was an echo-chamber of a few, do you?`If not, read the quote I answered to.


Oh, and I thought you would get the idea and click the link. Maybe even read the post. My fault. So: Click the link and read the post.

I would understand if I had placed anything in a positive light. I haven't done that.



I did read your observations. When I talked about accurate measure, I meant something beyond an observation. Such as measured statistics from a credible third-party source. As always, we make the mistake that the add-on/admin online community isn't a fraction of the number of forum owners as a whole. Our feedback, and whether or not we're making add-ons, isn't an accurate of measure of things. All tying back to the fact, that no matter how discontent you are, you're not getting a refund on a download. Because that's not something that done, nor a very good business model.

Looks like vb5 seems to be a new start all round.I'm sure we'll see the money making coders out in force six months on from now.

Hobby coding, is a thing of the past in these guys eyes.Coders here left people in the lurch on both vb3 and 4.So not everyone is innocent here.What did you expect IB to do? Their only way was to create vb5 on their terms.

Why vborg is showing to support it must simply because of monetary value or back handers from the likes of established syndicate coders.

That might sound harsh,but I only see Dbtech really getting involved with vb5 on here.

Coders didnt leave anyone in the lurch, they all (like me) have normall lives away from here and full time jobs. Make no mistake dbtech are really only there to ply their commercial products or links (if you have updated your dbtech mods from here you may or may have not noticed the links appearing in all your footers..etc when they orginally didnt).

I'm not against them making money, everyone needs to put bread on the table, i'm just trying to get you to see the reality of it, if they are coding for vb5 then good on them.

Why do you need to do that,as you said and they always say the same,"we have lives" and full time jobs.It's a coders cliche now that statement.

I have a full time job and a life plus four sites to run,I can't pick and choose.So what gives you (the coders) the right to use that statement as always as an excuse.

As I said vb5 will see the money coders and you confirmed that Simon.Thanks.

The statement "we have lives" means that because we have released a mod on here for free for your use it doesn't mean that we are at your beck and call if anything goes wrong, we give support as and when we can, i personally support all my mods all the time but i understand lifes pressures...etc that can cause some coders not to.

As it's free there aren't any warranties...etc so, paying for it is how you get those assurities :)

As I recall, there's a guideline somewhere around here that says you use third-party modifications at your own risk. That's not an excuse. That's a fact. No one is obliged to give things away for free in perpetuity. And no one should be hinging anything crucial on a free add-on. Even a paid add-on can go *poof* in the middle of the night.

Quick questin, i have vb 5.05, and from reading this site I'm going to install vb 4.22 for the add ons since i can't get really anything on the new vers. With 4.22 are their hotlink and hide codes available?

Something you need to keep in mind about DBTech is that it isn't one person. DBTech is a company with quite a few coders working for them.

So if you have 10 coders focusing on products that only they work on, it is a lot easier for them to update/produce products than it is for a single coder.

I have released add-ons for vB5, but due to the vB5 code being in constant flux I've had to step back and wait for it to stabilize before I do any more updates to those mods. With over 40 publicly available add-ons and God knows how many custom/private mods to support I can't be doing updates to vB5 add-ons on almost a weekly basis.

Combine that with what seems to be an en-mass move of many of my clients to another forum system with the expectation of my mods to follow them and time becomes a very precious commodity. In this case vB5 takes a back seat to vB4 and other more stabile software.

--------------- Added [DATE]1383141740[/DATE] at [TIME]1383141740[/TIME] ---------------

If you do a search of the vB4 mods forum using the word 'hide' and search titles only, you'll probably find what you want.

Thats dependant on whether the mod is in your interest to post it here. Most are carrying lite versions these days which lead on to your were you have to be at the beck and call of everyone. And then suddenly the "The Statement" is never stated..

Sorry I've lost you on that statement.So why are we posting here at vborg? In fact what was vborg created for?

I totally agree with you.Thats why I stated:

I don't doubt your integrity to vb4,but as you have said vb5 takes a back seat.So we then go back to what I said.

For downloading free add-ons that people want to give to the community. Under a stipulation that is no different from any other third-party add-on site. When you get something for free, you know what you're getting into.

Of course you won't make that statement if you're offering a paid add-on. Because that person has decided that he can make a reasonable commitment to the project. In which case "The Statement" becomes "The Terms of Service". In which case, you still don't get any perpetual guarantees.

Thanks for that.So when did the rules change to allow lite versions? As opposed to pro versions,and as you said free add-ons.

Lite versions of commercial modifications are permitted to be released here as long as:

1. It is a working modification
2. It is not time limited in any way
3. It is completely free to the user
4. It is stand alone and completely separate to the full version
5. A single link back to the commercial version is permitted, as long as no pricing or promotional language is used in the link or embedded into the lite version.

As far as I know, it's always been that way.

Nobody gets "left in the lurch" by FREE modifications.

My vB4 site has lots of valued modifications, I'm eternally grateful to the authors of each and every one of them, including the ones who've moved on and aren't around here any more.

If something breaks on an "abandoned" mod, I'll try to fix it myself, which may include asking for help on this very site. If I can't fix it - I'll have to remove it. But I won't have been "left in the lurch", because I always know that's one of the risks. If I don't like it I can always pay someone.

Just popping in to say that i'm not a huge fan of that characterization. Our lite/pro version feature split is always a minimum of 75/25 in favour of the lite version when v1 is released. The split never drops below 65/35 in any future version either.

If we were really only there to ply our commercial products, the lite versions wouldn't be so strong. Not to mention all of the coders that make up DBTech have a history of releasing completely free mods here on vb.org. Oh, and we've released over 20 completely free mods without pro versions as a company.

I don't really understand why some coders feel the need to portray us as some greedy company versus their altruistic selves, but I do wish they would at least get the facts straight.

For those wondering, DBTech isn't made up of 10 coders. At this exact moment in time it consists of four active coders, two of which we essentially trained from scratch. Between the free (not lite) mods they released under the DBTech banner, and the free mods they have released under their own names, DBTech coders have produced something like 60 completely free mods for the community, and another 60 or so very strongly featured lite mods.

No one is getting rich from vBulletin mods; we sell them so we can afford to be able to continue producing and supporting new mods and features full time.

Sorry about the little ramble there. Regarding vB5, there is no money there at all at the moment. Anyone producing commercial modifications for it, including us, would lose a significant amount of money. We're porting mods to it at this point because users or customers of our mods for earlier vB versions have asked us to. All of the ports we have done so far have cost us money, for the record.

Not sure how that fits with the narrative that all we're interested in is money and we never do things just because we want to help people out or give something to the community, but i'm sure someone will come up with a way.

vB5 as a piece of software as a ton of potential. I personally don't think it's yet developed to a point that would make it a good replacement for vB 3.8 or vb 4.2, but it certainly has the framework to be a very good bit of software in the future. Not unlike how I didn't necessarily consider vB4 better than vB3 until several updates had been released. The potential was pretty evident from the start there as well.

Iain
DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

So what are the consequences to coders if these 5 simple rules are not implemented.Do they just simply get a slap on the wrist..Or is it dependent on who you are?

I am on vb 4.2.1 good forum.

They get flogged, tortured, then put to the wheel.

In earnest: If no one reports it, no one will act. The consequence will probably be the addon being removed. Aside from that, it may well depend a bit on the person/case, and rightly so. If someone who has contributed to the community for a long time breaks such a rule (maybe even inadvertently), you don't just hit them with the ban-stick.

Not true we just keep it simple, we have a vbulletin.org branding iron here labeled "THIS IS SPARTAAAAVB.ORG" we burn into you if you violate our site in any manner it's painful too I had Marco use it on me once :eek: jk jk

Yes if no one reports and we don't see it then its virtually invisible to those with the power to take action... basically what you said I just worded it differently lol. For me regardless if new or old member I tend to give a harmless warning first time via pm i.e. a "heads up, don't do that, this is why blah blah blah" per say, after all some truly do not know all the rules despite using the site regularly, the new guys and gals have an excuse the veterans of this site not so much :p.