If a rating system were implemented, I'd suggest that at the start of each project the person hired and person hiring agree to being rated, by this I mean..

Something along the lines of the applicant clicking a link which says 'apply to job' within the person hiring's thread at the requests forum, which would give them a text area to PM the thread starter. The thread starter would then read through the PMs, be able to reply if they'd like, and click something like 'job granted' on the PM of the person they hire. Afterwords, both the applicant and the person applying would be given permission to rate one another, with each member's given & received ratings displayed in their profiles.

This could prevent people from rating whoever they like(/dislike) even if they haven't worked with them, and only allow for ratings between people who have actually agreed to work together.

Hopefully what I said wasn't too convoluted, it's 1am and I've got plenty of work on my hands right now...

I say this in every thread about a trader system, if you get ripped off you generally don't do your research. I have outsourced work to people here on a few occasions in the past, and every single time I have asked for 3 references. I asked for their past clients phone # and email and chased up every single reference asking lots of questions, surrounding competence and punctuality. I have not had a single problem to this date :)

well dean c aint you lucky.
Just because u do your homework does not mean u are safe.
I checked up on the last person and everything seemed fine but obviously it was`nt.
Seems more are against a sort of trader system than actually helping members on this board.Im starting to think these kinds of posts/threads are actually a waste of time simply because they fall on deaf ears and nothing will change because the board itself does not want to change how it operates.

Anyway as a final Note Dean c - what would your attitude be if u did get ripped off on one of these jobs ? - would you just put it down to experience,and not bother if the scammer was still able to get further work on here ?

As stated previously...
There are tools already available what makes you think that a "custom feedback system" will make a difference?


FACTS:

• 80-90% of "ripoff" complaints that we hear about are jobs not even posted in our Paid Requests forum.
• vbulletin.org is a place for "vbulletin programming" knowledge and FREE modifications.
• A new system / feature should be added only if it fixes the problem at hand - adding this "feedback system" will only create new problems

With that said, there are many things that we would like to change. However, we are bound to work within our limits:

• limits placed by Internet Brands
• limits placed by Jelsoft
• legal / liability issues
• the community / target audience
• etc

well i must be in the 10% slot because my job was posted in the request forum (infact the 2 i got stung on where) - hows that for unlucky.

You know yourself its not working - and needs changing but you will always find excuses to not change anything.Its been like this for yrs now.

Like your sig says `there's room for improvement` - except when it comes to helping members.
In theory i could proberly sue jelsoft,as they where acting as the middle man when i requested a job (you provided the platform so must take some responsibility).

Seeing as all my chat was done in PM and records kept on this board then they should have a legal obligation to act on my behalf and sort out my problem.
I requested the job from this board and was forced to do all dealing by way of the pm system which is sort of underhanded if u ask me.

You may want to get the group of victims and ask them about the legality concerning vbulletin.org acting as the platform for Paid requests. I suppose, if there's enough of you and there's grounds to sue jelsoft then this would probably enduce change more than words.

All I'm saying is you definitely want to look into the legal area and research to see if jelsoft can be held responsible. :)

They can not be held responsible because there is a notice on top of the forum that indicate that they are not responsible... reading it or not is the responsability of the user on that forum, that means if you do not take all the actions possible to be informed and protect yourself, you can not put the other party responsible for your own misactions.

Then your screwed lasto - for the 3rd time.

Are u a lawyer as im certain that is untrue.If i was to follow your way of thinking then,if i put a notice on my website saying No warezs allowed - but still allow people to post warezs then im not responsible because i put a notice up,so im covered.

The law does not work that way and Shelley maybe i am screwed for the 3rd time but i will certainly be looking into it because this board wont protect us.

i'm not a lawyer, you are not either... i "translated freely" what Jelsoft guys are always saying when someone is whinning about not being supported when scammed... you read it already, and that's what they say...

i personally think that you do not need a lawyer each time something bad come to you. if you can not protect yourself without a lawyer, do not go online. a lawyer is just there to apply what is stated in the laws. there is no laws about scammers on the internet yet, and even the american government have hard time finding the right way to protect the american citizen on the internet...

so yes, my interpretation may be flawed, but everybody is free to accept it or not...

Are you sure about that nex? If that's the case what are you doing online. Just seems a little hypocritical what you just said there, and a little funny at the same time.

Your english has picked up again I noticed. If lasto wishes to seek legal advice that is his privilege. Personally i think it would come to no avail. The best bet is to achieve changes here to lower the scamming that is increasing on a daily basis..

Using the services of a lawyer once is not hypocritical, it's sporadically stupid. I meant that if each of your frustrations have to pass thru the uses of a lawyer, you have a problem,. because the net is filled with frustrations.

and btw, my unique use of a lawyer was not because of my own frustration, but to protect me from someone else's frustration... this is completely different.

the only way a user can protect himself here is by checking references (background as you say so)... if you can not check someone else's work, you can hire the guy anyway, but you have 50/50 chances to be frustrated at the end... and even some coders here have good reputation but sometimes give bad results because nobody's perfect.

I think Princeton and Marco have stated pretty plainly no changes will be forthcoming to the Paid Requests forum. It may be out of their hands to make changes if they wanted to. It is a buyer beware situation not unlike many marketplaces on the internet.

Don't want to hear it nex, your personal matters don't interest me. Try and be constructive instead of kicking someone in the teeth & basically laughing at them when they are down. There's one thing i hate and that's people being scammed. If I could help I would.

actually Shelley, if you read the first place, and if lasto is fair enough to say it, you will see that i was the first one to try and help him with his first situation... i am even one of the few here to execute some work to replace the work of some scammer when a client come to me and prove being scammed...

you just did not see my point the way i showed it... and you are the one saying i am hypocritic when i never attacked nobody...

I think folk will have to look at their actions and stop being so trusting ;) I know in the real world we'd like nothing better than to be able to trust someone, but i'm sorry to dissapoint, It don't work out like that.

Say I was in a Restuarant, and a guy came up to me and said, "Hey, I have a 50" Plasma TV for sale for $250, Gimme the money and i'll go and fetch it"

How many of you here would give the cash without Question?? The truth is you wouldn't, But thats exactly what your doing.

Shop around, get to know the person and most importantly Hang onto your money until you've got something worth spending it on.

If a coder or designer is confident in their work then i'm sure they'll wait for their money, I can't see any reason as to why they'll feel to take cash up front, its not as if they have to buy anything. If you remember the following...


S. Safety - are you 100% certain that your happy to trust this person with your personal information and logins.

T. Time - Like all work, There comes a time when its completed. Find out how long and when you can expect your work to be done. You don't want it dragging on for months.

O. Organise - Before you engage full steam ahead, check that you have details about the coder, A landline number and address, Referances, and recomendations. A little bit of organising here will prevent hic ups later.

P. Payment. - When your happy with the work and the jobs been completed, then Pay, Don't delay as the coder has worked for you on Trust, Its a two way thing, so when you get your payment request and its what you agreed then please Pay promptly.

Its a Mad world out there so Be Safe ;)

sounds good to me

Isn't this exactly why a Coder rating system does? It adds references and recommendations. It gives extra credence to coders.

When you post a coding job here, you get contacted by all kinds of people. Some seem really interesting to work with, but many others seem like shady scams to me. I may very well be wrong. But I received a lot of offers from people without any reference or even posts here, who did not seem to need more information about the project but wanted money upfront.

Basically the only way to check a coder out is to review how good his/her work posted here is, and how well that is supported. That does limit the number of coders to choose from substantially.

Im not bothered about the money i actually lost.What annoys me the most,is the fact that the scammers can go freely around this board as if nothing happened.The 1st person who scammed me used to send emails to me nearly every day laughing at my attempts to get him banned from here.
I did my research on the 2nd coder and he seemed to be fine and had done other jobs in the past - so this is no guarantee you wont get stung.

What is the policy when someone rips you off,besides the usual,which is do your research ?

If you are selling a 50" Plasma TV for sale for $250, and someone says to you "I'll take the telly. Give it to me and I'll go get the cash"

It's not just the people requesting the work being done that are getting scammed. A few months ago I spent 3 hours sorting out someone's database after quoting a very cheap price. I did the work and haven't heard from the guy since.

I think that's why some coders want at least some cash up front before doing the work. Why should the coder trust the client if the client doesn't trust the coder?

Thats True, In fact, coming to think about it what guarantee's does a coder have that he'll get paid??? at all.

The only alternative is using an escrow service and paying a bit extra to get a 3rd party involved :confused: But thats gonna make the whole concept of coder / client
into a more expensive mode. :(

Send them their code via a password protected zip file, when the coder get paid, they get the password??

i personally have a default / demo forum where i display the work... it works there, so the client pay, then i deliver... the code can not be copied that way.

but escrow is also a good way to deal with the money side... sometimes it's not money, it may be something like stealing a database via a backdoor script in the product file, it can be a resell of the hack you paid millions for the exclusivity... there is a lot of ways a client can be scammed, and the same for a coder ...

In Europe theres an escrow service http://www.escrow-europa.com/escrow/english/index.htm

Costs 8 euros for a basic transaction, But to be honest, the more we look at these problems the more i feel that 100% guarantee is just not feasable.

There HAS to be an element of trust and that trust falls on us, not VB.org or jelsoft.

Theres two ways you can go about this, the trusting way and the more expensive way (Escrow, Proper company etc) I think we just need to find it in our hearts which one to go for at that particular moment :confused:

Forget about the trust as theres loads of trusted coders on here,and i should know as ive used them loads of times.Its the bad few that ruin it for the rest.
Maybe we should concentrate on how to solve issues when things do go wrong............................
Or even better idea - lets just forget it and should things go wrong then not even post about it.

Im gonna seriously have to back away from this thread.

As stated there's no 100% guaranteed way not to get scammed, but at least with a feedback system here the org it would make it easier for clients and coders to make an informed decision. I doubt false feedback would be much of an issue.

Currently clients can leave feedback on the coder they hired in the thread that they start, but the person taking the work doesn't have that option and if they can't start a thread about it then the coder can't make an informed decision on whether to take the work or not.

Just like the poster of a paid request has the option (and is encouraged) to leave feedback on the transaction, so do the takers of the request. If te taker wants to leave feedback on the transaction, then he will need to PM a staff member with his feedback, as he/she can not reply directly to the thread.

Thanks for the info there Marco, I did notice this on a thread Lynne left feedback for last night. I'll certainly do that in future.

It'd be easier on staff members with a feedback system :D

We maybe get 1 such a request in themonth, so no need to create a system to relieve the workload of staff.

Fair Enough Marco :up:

I think the result of a thread like this highlights the fact that Yes, there are some less than honest people out there and that we as individuals need to be extra careful in our dealings with strangers who charge for their services.

It wouldn't be fair, to try and offsett a percentage of the blame to VB.org, at the end of the day we, as individuals are responsible for what we decide to do, no one else.

Just be Careful, As Lasto pointed out, he's had plenty of help from Honest people on here and Yes they are here, you just need to look :cool:

Scams for a large site like this are bound to happen, with the many thousands of members and loads signing up every day, the chances are that you may come accross some un-savory types, so thats why we need to go into self help mode and double check before handing over cash. If you want to hire someone to do something, then speak out, ask, make a thread, but most importantly be 100% certain that you've done everything possible to minimise the risk.

Its not fair on the site, The staff (Who give their time to help us) to say that they should be doing more when really its us that should be doing more.

Its certainly opened my eyes, I started this thread to enquire about a feedback option, and what i've learnt over the week is, in all honestly, is the fact that WE need to look carefully at how we take on coders/designers, and have we looked at all the risks before handing over cash.

I was all for a feedback system but now, do we really want it to protect ourselves or just as a portal to pass the blame ???

:confused:

And how many times do you get told that someone has been scammed Marco ?

45 yes so far.

wont make any difference if there was 5000 for yes as ive found out the hard way.

as we're at 50 Yes after one full month... that means a lot for everybody!

Well actually 5000 might make them move on this ;)

Like some have said... you have honest ones and nasty ones on here - if you don't do your homework then your to blame. Sometimes situations occur like I had recently and lost 3 clients over having to be at the hospital nightly!!! 2 of the 3 I issued refunds on their deposits and the 3rd has not checked his mail? Regardless I try to be fair, honest, and dependable and so do many of you. All I know is this same topic keeps getting brought up, this same issue is made known by the few who have been burnt... Meow, Meow, Meow... (*starts humming the meow-mix song in his head...) I have lost money before, been scammed, and even robbed but after a while you know who to tell the story to and who not to if you catch my drift. It's your responsibility to handle yourself and your site so be careful who you choose and what you do to it plain and simple.

Don't get me wrong.. I would like to see this however I would much rather see other work done here instead of this first... like when a mod is submitted it could ask what versions (more than one to choose) it is compatible with then duplicate the post in the 3.7/3.8 or something like that. I loved the "Developer" added a few months back and other small tweaks/changes I have noticed recently. It just seems others are focusing on the negative when you could be learning how to code yourself and forget the filth that made you feel dirty. Get over it and get back to your forums!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: I voted yes... it makes some of what I said look hypocritical but we need it, all I'm trying to say is sh*t or get off the pot already.

Great Idea!!!!!

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