There is a famous saying about opinions... you know... that everyone has one...

But we aren't talking about opinions, we are talking about your perception that people should work for your benefit at no gain to them. Thats not an opinion, that is a screwed up sense of reality.


I'm not stupid enough to lay the claim without first looking at your plethora of modifications and their subsequent install counts. My point is, if you know how to make a mod, get off your ass and make the ones you are complaining aren't available for free here. Then support it and thus you would be justified in complaining that others aren't doing it.

The problem is that you are complaining about people not doing something you yourself do not do.

I wanted to add one thing;

Have you used linux on the desktop? Have you used linux in environments where support of the Win32 API and .NET APIs are requirements? For many of us it's not possible to "switch to linux" or "switch to MAC" or use anything else but Windows. I can name a few programs off the top of my head that I use everyday that will not run in linux; Visual Studio, DGindex, AvsP, AviSynth, Aegisub, Cinema Craft Encoder, and many other applications. Sure I know there is WINE and native linux alternatives and that will cover some of my needs but not all of them. At the end of the day if I don't have Windows XP on my desktop I'm not getting any work done.

What I'm getting at is it's easy to point at linux and claim it's a good alternative to Windows but like everything else in the world it's going to depend on the end user's needs. Let me ask you this; Would you install Linux on your mothers computer? Now before you say "Yes!" think about this. Is she going to be able to run a game, or piece of software that her friend brings over? How many times are you going to have to visit to install dependencies and emulators? Do you think it's going to support an ancient game made back in the Win95 days? ;)

Lets take your photoshop/GIMP example. Have you used GIMP to do any professional grade work and if so how did it compare to Photoshop? I've used both pieces of software and I know as well as anyone else that The GIMP doesn't measure up to Photoshop in features. The GIMP also has a horrible user interface that no one seems interested in fixing any time soon. The GIMP is also a horrible name and I hate hearing it every time that it comes out of my mouth. I feel like I'm making fun of people that don't walk that well. ;)

Your Open Office example is better but you know as well as I do that it lags behind Microsoft Office in many ways. Although that has a lot to do with Microsoft coming up with a new file format every couple of years.

As for there begin no alternatives to vBulletin or IPB; I must disagree. There are plenty of open source, non-open source but free, and commercial alternatives out there. Heck you could even start your own if you really wanted to. vB and IPB are just the "big boys" these days is all. If you _really_ wanted to get away from them you could. Why you don't is beyond me but I'm betting it has a lot to do with your needs as an end user. ;)

Okay, that was a really badly phrased piece of wording. I did not mean there's no alternative to vBulletin and Invision the forum software, although I guess my wording was way off. I meant for many of the paid mods, there's no free alternative. I know vBulletin and Invision have free alternatives (which could be listed over 16 pages of lists), but things like vB SEO, or paid products like those from vB Advanced, or RPG systems (which indeed don't even have a paid alternative as Inferno Technologies vanished off the face of the planet) and any form of shop type system (vB Commerce is either encrypted or paid, vB Plaza went fully paid and most of the alternatives either died with vBulletin 3 or 3.5).

Then again, why the hell did this get revived?

Do you know how many support members vBSEO have ? Do you have any idea what kind of a support level they offer to their customers. Do you have any idea the quality of vBSEO code ? Do you know how much it will take to cover all the support staff expenses , development expenses etc ? You should be gratefull to vBSEO as they release a very important product for free at vb.org and also support it. It is clear that you dont hve any idea on any of the above questions. Thats why you should stop using vBSEO as an example. If you need it on your board , you can purchase it. If not stop whinning about it.

Everyone has a right to use any kind of encyription on the programs they code. I personally donot release anything that is even a little complex on vb.org anymore because i have no time to support it and i have no intention to help people making money from my work. Also i want to protect my code as releasing it free can help a person to steal my code. Paid addons have the same problem. In order to protect their code and investment they encode their product.

Auality is important on a program you use. And quality products always deserve to get paid.

Plese don't let this thread turn into a love/hate thread for vBSEO, it will be closed quickly if this continues.

May I just add that Lizard King works for vBSEO, so I don't understand why he continues to act as if he is objective whenever the subject matter arises...

That is already obvious by the posts he makes.

How about just using the law, like Jelsoft uses? And there's still no excuse to why sometimes FREE products are encrypted. So you're scared people will add features they personally want with paying $999.99 for the super deluxe premium addition? Scared people will actually modify it and realise that the super deluxe premium addition isn't as brilliant as it's been advertised? Seriously, the sheer amount of people who seem to think the fear of others stealing their work is worth making it harder, if not impossible for technically advanced users to use for their own purposes is ridiculous.

Oh, and I'm not going to use vB SEO as an example any more, it's obvious that every single mention of it causes a flame war or pages long debate to break out between it's supporters and haters.

Can I ask, how old are you cheat-master30?

Not a kid by quite a few years, but I refuse to give any public information about myself for any reason. So in other words, as most people can tell from the refusal to give out my actual name, or any other information, I won't disclose such information.

In other words, I'm an adult, but my age is not going to be disclosed at any future time, because it has no relation to the actual debate in question given in this topic, and basing arguments on the individual rather than the argument is a fallacy.

I never claimed i didn't work for vBSEO Dean and it has nothing to do with the subject as the subject has nothing to do with vBSEO. So please try staying on the subject as Marco already warned that thread will be locked if the subject focus will be vBSEO.

--------------- Added [DATE]1223728830[/DATE] at [TIME]1223728830[/TIME] ---------------

What law are you talking about. If i wrote a script , every right of the script belongs to me. Noone expect me decides what i will do with it. I can encrypt it , throw it to thrash , give it to everyone free , or even ask 10000$ for a single license. It is the person who codes is the decision maker not Jelsoft or any other company.

Unfortunately i agree with Dean as it is clear that your age directly involves this discussion.

I meant use the DCMA notices and copyright law to get the hosts or providers of the people who've stolen your scripts to shut down their site, and maybe have them prosecuted in the process. Like how Jelsoft relies on people to report piracy via a form.

You obviously don't know how weak the DMCA is, or ever heard of offshore hosting in countries that could give a flip about US copyright laws...nevermind about having to hire an attorney to try and prosecute someone. All of your arguments are strawmen and weak. You've made no point about anything with your thread other than you're cheap and a whiner.

Seems to work well enough for Jelsoft and Invision.

Care to provide some stats to back that up? I happen to know Howard at Pirate Reports quite well and know from his experience and my own that 90% of pirated sites do not get shut down.

the guy who started this thread does have some argument and i agree with him.
The prices for any hack is really expensive these days and people need to get a reality check and stop asking for hundreds of pounds for a small hack.
TBH vbulletin is nothing like it used to be in yrs gone by.Members would help one another and if u asked for something - someone would knock something up for u and post it but these days its all changed - the only reply u will get is `how much are u willing to pay`
Everyone is sitting on the side line with paypal accounts at the ready waiting for the next `Requests for paid hacks` thread to appear.

Do you know how much hiring an attorney costs. Do you think a coder should spend that much money just to release unencoded scripts to please you. Also dealing with attorneys will also take your valuable time. Thats why that is the worse option for a small company or a coder.

Yes , vB.org was better old days and released modifications had much more quality and feature. However the community was not that big then and people didnt use to make a lot of money from their sites. Thats why vb.org used to be a place where people can learn coding etc.. Supporting addons were not that bad as community used to support all released products. But look now , it is grown a lot and it is nearly impossible to support free products. It takes too much time and effort. Unfortunately we all have personal life , family etc.. and thats the reason no one does it anymore.

I'm not sure where the connection is failing to be made.

You suggest that people should work for you at no charge to you. Then claim that they should also have no protection over their work. You insist that if a copyright violation were to occur, they can always go pay solicitors to fight the good fight like other software houses do (i.e. vB and IPB which oddly enough CHARGE YOU FOR THEIR SOFTWARE).

You know what? I like to read. But I am really sick of having to pay for books. Why cant authors just produce free books. On that note, all music, movies and petrol for my car should be free as well. Why? Because I am me!

The welfare mind set and its accompanying arguments are ignorant. People contribute on here for free all the time. The ratio of free mods to paid mods is most likely greater than 100:1. You are really complaining that the 99% isn't good enough for you? You must have it all? If that is the case, then any functionality that you do not want to pay for (i.e. vbSEO or any other commercial system you used as an example)... go make yourself instead of crying that others should do it for you at no cost to you (just time and money for them). Its really not any more complex than that. Quit expecting everyone to give you something without anything in return.

You have made your point, now may I? :)

1. Why the hell is everything for money now?
   We must make a living, you, me, everybody. It rarely will happen a multi-milionaire to be a programmer willing to make small and big additions for free. This always has been like this, and since I remember, only old software was given for free or as a trial. The idea of Open Source was wrongly taken as Freeware = software of free and completely unpaid use. While the latter may work for Multinationals like IBM, it is the definite death of smaller companies and single developers. Strangely Open Source was enforced by the large companies, right in the view to absorb (= kill and at best employ) the small developers. Please try to make a living of coding only, and you'll see what I'm talking about. ;)
2. Prices from Hell?
   The pricing depends on the quality and work which is put into a software product, and the number of sold copies and customers. While some developers make ridiculous offers, most sell under cost else they won't sell at all.
3. Lite does not equal feature non existant
   Many times, a light version is identical to the "extended" versions, but the way how customers and requests are handled are different. Paying customers have priority support, and can ask for features which may eventually never become published. Usually, paying customers are much more happy with a product than the free fellows, because they get also a service. Freeware is like an ambulance with no driver. Paid software has not only a driver, but also a doctor on board. Many customers prefer the latter.
4. Encryption? What the hell?
   Right. Encryption is a mod killer. but it is also the only ensurance the customer has not messed with the code and therefore there is no excuse for both sides. You can't imagine how often it happens to hear: "Oops, sorry, I have made a small change here ... does it matter?". Of course it does. I have wasted many days on searching for errors where they haven't been. But you're right, too, the code should be in clear text. What is missing to PHP is a "No Mess Lock", or an automatic warrant system, which tells a coder the source has been tampered with.
5. 'But for vBulletin and Invision there ARE NO alternatives.'
   Right. The point is, that at one side there are no free developers (top guns) available, and on the other that there is nobody willing to pay for an alternate product, even though they could make a lot of money directly by sale or on other behalf, for example advertising. And then it doesn't cost so much as somebody may believe, but no matter what, there is nobody willing to pay.
6. Custom Coding costs thousands of dollars/pounds...
   Yes, but thousands, not hundreds of thousands. It depends also if you want crap or quality. I want to recall that a top-gun developer rarely writes more than a few hundred lines of code daily, and sometimes sits on a single line for many days. But that code will still work when all other software has stopped. Two third of my customers have paid 3-8 times as much as if they had called a professional first.
7. Piracy forces encryption!
   No. Pirates have always existed and will be able to obtain the code if they really want. Good code will always be pirated, and there is no measure to avoid this, except for frequent updates. In fact this is the best existing anti-piracy strategy. If they had to update weekly, they quickly would give up - too much work for nothing ;)

--------------- Added [DATE]1223856333[/DATE] at [TIME]1223856333[/TIME] ---------------

Sorry, but I couldn't resist :D

We aren't ordinary fans - all posts I have read here are coming from professionals or at least upcoming coders and designers. We are the film-makers, and you are watching our movie and hate to pay for it :rolleyes:

Erm... I was comparing to the days gone by a bit and how it seems when something is free there are more volunteers rather than people demanding money for everything. Of course, I'm not sure what people think about the open source licenses that basically say any use of the code must also be free as with anything that integrates with the code, it basically says 'tough luck, no charging for anything related to this product'. Then again, I've seen quite a few sites with a really nice idea, anything submitted to them that gets abandoned by the author gets moved to a section where anyone who wants to can update/finish it in their own time. Basically, the audience gets to finish those things left unfinished by the original authors, which is pretty much the use of reuseable code.

By that, I mean REALLY light version. As in for your ambulance example, no driver, three wheels and no brakes. As in, I understand fully the whole idea of no support, just that in these cases there's no just no support, the product is so lacking it's basically:

1. Nearly completely unusable for the purpose of the modification. Lite enough to make even the basic 3.7 album system that's constantly been criticised for this look as feature rich as vBulletin itself.
2. It's basically a great big advertisement saying 'buy the paid product' on a free website that doesn't allow paid products. Think of it like those people who might post three lines from a paid article and then say underneath 'to read the rest of this article go to mysite.com and pay ?999.99'.

Seriously, these kinds of mods are really pushing the rules here to the limit in terms of near uselessness. At this rate, it'd wouldn't surprise me to see time limited 'Lite versions' now and people getting moderated for it.

I'd like some system like that, except just displays a great big message saying that it was 'altered by a user' when there's an error or something.

I'm not criticising the cost of custom coding. Just saying the pricing model isn't transferrable to off the shelf software.

Erm... I wasn't backing that piracy enforces encryption, I was attacking a common argument that would probably (and has) been given in this topic before it came up.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist :D

We aren't ordinary fans - all posts I have read here are coming from professionals or at least upcoming coders and designers. We are the film-makers, and you are watching our movie and hate to pay for it :rolleyes:[/quote]

The point still stands. You don't need 'expertise' to criticise anything. It's a very similar argument to saying 'only a scientist can criticise scientific knowledge' or what not. Saying 'I'd like to see you do better' and expecting that because someone cannot do better at whatever means they're wrong is a fallacy. You don't need to know how to make movies to say how a movie sucks, or know economics to say that there are unfair business decisions or various other stuff. Sometimes I really wish vBulletin would have a 'no use of code in paid deriative works' addition to their terms of service to stop much of this.

This is an applicable argument to criticise entertainment, but not someones work. For instance, I would need some level of scientific background to criticise Einsteins theory of relativity if I wanted to come off as something other than an ignorant schmuck. Criticise a movie because you paid for entertainment and didn't get it. Criticise a book because you bought it and did not enjoy the ending. But saying that vB shouldn't allow people to charge for their modifications because you don't want to buy them is truly silly. How about... you just don't buy them? Why on Earth would you insist that since you don't want to buy them 'no one can'?!?

Saying 'lets see you do better' is to totally miss the mark (not sure if this is on purpose). What is being said is: If you want functionality that is only present in a paid mod, then code a free version. That is the beauty of freedom.

that's why film critics are written by critics, not fans... fans are biased, critics are educated to the movies market.

you can become a critic if you've been a fan one day, but basically you will need to study all the aspects of filmmaking before having a social impact... saying "i love this film because the actress have big boobs" is frm a fan... saying "i think this film have an impact because the actress and big boobs and the fans like big boobs" IS a critic...

Cheat, you are actually trying to critic the market but you are just a fan... sorry.

When will your releases have big boobs included with them!

i knew you'd be interested by our "Master of All Joys and Pleasures for Moderators" hack ....

Again, kind of misses another point. Scientific knowledge is most probably not needed to criticise science (I will likely get flamed for this). That's why various philosophers and even various religious people with varying knowledge of science state quite boldly various opinions about science and what not. Not exactly the best example, especially with how multiple fields often critique various things. Take a lot of what is given in psychology. Then take how various philosophers for example completely disagree with it and their method.

And I'm not criticising for my own purposes. I have no need for most of the paid modifications I've mentioned, it's just a lot of people most obviously do (see how often requests for them come up here?) and how there's obviously a gap where competition should exist but doesn't.

As i stated before i will really like to know your age because i dont want to discuss things with a 12 year old teenage.

There is a difference between criticising something and offering your uneducated opinion.

There is no competition. If you think a paid for mod should be free... go write a free version. Stop insisting that others do it for you.

I wonder if he'll ever get the hint you want him to learn to code Geek?

I agree. Modifications which are so light they will fail any serious test are about the worst examples of publishing, and unfortunately quite a lot, including also unwillingly introduced "Light" versions of starters.

Starters are often encouraged by their family and friends to show what they can do, and this is what we get. I'm not against starters, but I would like to see a Kid Corner where approaching coders and designers try their best to become famous :).

The only reason people make "lite" editions of their product is to advertise the full version.

To criticise anything they must have a minimum of knowledge of the argument.

If for example somebody tries to stitch a brand on a tire, they may criticise the needle to be too weak or the rubber be too strong. But unless they don't know that tires are not for stitching, their criticism is worthless. :)

I usually support all the software I've ever made, in order to understand what people really need. When I get criticised, I try to fix the problem or explain the reasons of the missing feature, in that order. And sometime I admit I can't fix it.

No program or addon is perfect, but it may become still reasonably interesting to many people if there is the good will to make the best of it. And in this sense I agree with you.

If Netunt, a complete newbie on the site is able to figure this out by himself, i don't know why someone so used to the site can't understand that statement...

anyway, this was an essay, in french "essayer" mean "try"... so you try to figure out things if i see it right?

The choice of vocabulary, and the ability to express the same concept in different ways in order to make himself understood, let me believe I am talking to somebody about the fourties. He may cheat but if he does, he does it darn well ;)

post count != smarts
(made apparent by this thread)

or something like that

Um, am I missing something here? Is our marketing approach to the way we market our products not the same as everywhere else?

You want a light/trial/limited version, you can find it for free. You want something with a bit more features and possibly support as well, you pay for it.

"Try to buy"
"Free demo"
"We're so convinced you'll like it, we'll let you try it for free"
"Here's the light version, now just imagine what the premium can do"

This type of thing exists everywhere. Do you call Adobe and flame them for offering 60 day trials for free when they can just offer their product entirely for free?

A thread with 5 pages, arguing what, whether or not we should charge for modifications? lol. Is that even a question, seriously? Why not demand that designs, custom scripts, and everything in addition be free as well? Sorry, it won't happen. Some people build cars and get thousands, we build products/websites and get paid for that. You yourself said you have no reason to purchase any of the products you've seen around here, so why the complaint?

When you find someone who is so well-off that they just feel like writing thousands of lines of codes, getting headaches along the way, offering a lending hand to webmaster using the product, etc. for free... By all means, bow to them. I will do the same. Till then, there are a variety of experienced and professional programmers and devs all accross this website as well as others doing their jobs and developing products catering towards the needs of extending vbulletin's software.

Why do you think vbulletin's so popular? Not only is it a kick-ass product, but it's a kick-ass product with... Well, kick ass products ;) Sorry if you feel like kicking our ass for that :p

You really hit the nail on the head with this. In it's infancy vbulletin was working hard to grow a product and following and fostering a "community" of mod'ers made smart business sense. Along the way those who contributed to the success and popularity of vbulletin wised up and realized they could (and should) make some income on their hard work as well. Today you have a product in vbulletin that, although very good on it's own merits, would not be half what it is without the cottage industries that have sprung up around it and make it all that more appealing to the masses. The biggest problem I see today is vb.com should merge vb.org into it's parent site and start officially supporting that arm of it's business. To claim vb.org is not part of the corporate entity that is vb.com and try and "sell" it as something it no longer is and hasn't been in a long time is very misleading. The time has long passed for this site to become a full-fledged arm of the business, staffed by paid employees and finding an official way to promote the cottage industries that are so integral to their continued success. To continue to "advertise" this place up as some "enthusiasts and hobbyists" playground leads to this very discussion we are having...among a myriad of other problems and issues.

Glad to see we share the same views ;) Great website btw, you guys seem to be doing well :up:

I actually cannot believe the level of ignorance you are showing OP, and I have to say it: lack of maturity.

By your logic anyone can disagree with anything without knowing anything about it.

You know how to tee yourself up for the storm that was to come OP.

What other people failed to mention in this thread was that as well as making a living from their hard work... why should they contribute and support their products to a bunch of whinning, whinging (the majority of the memberbase)? complaining people constantly asking "why have you not included this feature" or "why haven't you made me breakfast in bed". People are human and get sick and tired of this.

Now I was a keen advocate in supporting and contributing free products but sooner or later (as well as people needing to make a living) they just can't be bothered to contribute to the whinging majority.

ps I'm back after my weeks vacation so you can jump back down from the plates that you kindly kept warm.

*blinks* that was a lot of reading, and why include vbcommerce in the post, its free when its released, sures it's encrypted but still free for 1 shop, *cringes* but the core is free, and its not a lite script, all our core mods are free and 1000's of hours building them so end users here and on our site can benifit and I think between dark and I we've done a hella job supporting both on this site and other.

Our general argument as far as pro addons go is if others can make money from our work we should earn a little bit. I think thats fair. People can earn a hell of a lot form our free mods as well which makes up 90% of our work. go figour..

Sure we have a few pro addons but they are nothing to compared to the level of quality of our free mods and fully supported no contracts there.

As developers for example, dark and I both gotta eat, most of our pro mods don't even support our pop and chip habbit to crank out top quality free mods for vbulletin.

Like anyone here I like and use free mods, but we understand the amount of work that goes into coding this and for that reason if there is a pro mod for vbulletin that I like I'll buy it and not question its cost.

I've bought ever month that The Geek as made simply cause his work is awesome, and the products are solid. I have no problems paying for mods, and appeciate the developers that make both free and commercial products. It all takes time and is hard work.