Hum, Danny, could you contact Kier so he can be informed of this thread and give his own comment?!... that maybe be the best solution now... :)

.. as he gave his comment when vB.ORG was created and supported by Jelsoft... because this site started somewhere you know, and it was not directly from vb.com ...

I'm not sure what Kier has to do with this?

Marco is the vBulletin.org coordinator. He is the liaison between our community and Jelsoft, and I already speak to him daily in IRC and usually over morning coffee.

Nexialys, if you have suggestions that go beyond vBulletin.org, that is fine but it doesn't belong here nor is it going to get the answers you are looking for. You can contact either Marco or Ashley privately too communicate any of your ideas.

I'm interested how we can improve this community. You gave insight that dropping the request forum will help this community. This is a fine suggestion as it directly involves this community.

yes i think that the only situation possible regarding the paid service would be to drop the actual system/forum because there is more harm than goods... and with the references i received lately (the last 8 to 10 months), i can tell you that most of the people that came to my business now refuse to go to vb.org for their paid requests...

and the reason why i suggest that Kier would be informed is this forum:

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=47

... make some searches in that forum, and you will see that 99% of the questions about modifications are answered by suggesting to post in vb.org for support on modifications... that means that a certain % of these requests will fall under the Paid Services...

even on vb.com, some guys i answered commercially by giving them support on hacks or installs are telling me that they will never post here because they know someone who got scammed, or they read the Paid Services and see that they are not answered...

the structure never changed, the situation never changed... and you loose your time explaining the rules, you always have some complaints to follow, etc... does that make sense?!

I do agree with Danny on this one -- I think we should be emailing Ashley and see what he has to say. Kier is product manager, I don't think he'd have the final decision.

Regards Jason :)

Kier, Ashley, Marco, whoever can have a commercial point of view is important for me...

Marco is my best, he knows about this thread, keep his comment for the best moment so he will be able to knock me off for good.. lol

Yes, it would be nice. nexialys, why don't you drop Ashley an email -- you never know he may like the idea!

Regards Jason :)

Don't get me wrong Danny. I am not planning a venture like that. As i think the current system needs to be improved , I am just sharing my opinion about what can be the best solution for the situation.

What about a feedback system, something similar to the Itrader mod?

Regards Jason :)

was suggested long time ago...

about all the possible solutions were suggested over the years... the situation is just waving... sometimes it is ok for all, something we have a rage of scammers, and that is going up and down...

the main point here is that this site is based on coders work... and the more we see, the more our reputation is broken... there was also some discussions about the quality of the work released here lately... that is a direct effect of the scammers and the paid services... we see more paid requests because nobody answer free requests... we would have a better answer of the free requests if the paid service forum is closed... and we would have more releases in the hacks also...

I do think some sort of feedback system would help out here. That way, when someone gets contacted about doing the job, they can look and see what sort of feedback that coder has gotten. But, the feedback should be limited to the clients that posted about doing the job here, otherwise anyone could give feedback.

For coding things I'm definitely thankful and appreciative for the work and the time spent. When we ran into our first code that we needed to get made that was beyond our knowledge, we tried here out of curiosity.

I got one interested person, and they didn't have time to do it, or didn't seem interested too much. No strike against the coders here, but I think we had something pretty complicated and we needed someone with a fair amount of experience, perhaps multi types of code or years of experience. Not knowing how to create the code ourselves, obviously we have no gauge for really how complicated it was.

We spent $700 on the code we purchased. But again, I think the price was reflective of the complexity and the code pretty much came out as we wanted.

With all the add-ons here it's amazing that I don't think of this place as a coders place. I think of it as a modification community only, my thought process doesn't extend to coding experts. Even though it probably does have some great coders here, and obviously since there are many great add ons and code changes. I guess mentality what I think when dealing with coding is, "go to a coding website" lolz.

If I use a coder I'll probably stick with guru.com or rentacoder looks good to but have not used.

Our experience on guru was great, I got 4 estimates from 300 to 1000, we didn't take the lowest price or the highest obviously. They use escrow so we basically put all the money in the pot and the deal was to release it in 4 increments at checkpoints of completion that we predetermined. I think it took a total of 2 weeks to complete the code, but we used a company that houses several employees so they probably weren't only working on our project. We did have 30 of them helping at one point for a completion test, but that took 10 minutes or so.

I dunno, I felt really comfortable with escrow, I think it's the best way to go. I like half down and half on completion but references of work done is huge. If you haven't done anything it's better to wait for payment until it's complete.

As far as the issue of scamming, I only post requests that I really want. So I'm certainly not a scammer. At the same time if you've done a bunch of work in the past I don't know if I agree with the concept of not doing half down and half on delivery as that ensures the coder that the buyer is serious and that you will get paid.

Paypal can work with disputes and guru can as well.

Upon completion we gave feedback ratings based upon our experience with the coder. It was generally good, but the timeline took longer than it should so we gave like a 4/5 stars. As some days of that 2 weeks they didn't even work on it.

Yeah, that's all I have to say.

Yes, that would be good Lynne. But, as Danny said earlier, the client can easily scam a coder -- which is very annoying after all the work you've put in.

To solve that, what about having some kind of escrow account here, that way (with the feedback system) both the client and the coder are protected. What do you think?

Regards Jason :)

sorry but this is a false statement... Guru is not dealing with disputes, Escrow is.. that is a service provider that deal with the entire process of buy/sell...

Paypal is not dealing with Coders disputes at all, and never will because it is never a "tangible object"... all the persons who had to face a scammer here and there with paypal were devaluated because Paypal does not support that kind of complaints...

It's a good idea, however it would take quite a bit to implement.

It sounds like some of you are in touch with some coders who don't want to come to this site any longer because of the scammers. So, I guess I would wonder about whether putting all the work into redoing the forum is going to pay off by getting users to come back. If done right, it could be a tremendous asset to the community.

I'm a big fan of vb.com and vb.org. I have gone off and visited other vb sites, but to me vb.com and vb.org are kinda a community and I like the community. I feel like I'm going outside the community when I go to other sites. I know if I wanted to get something coded, I would feel most comfortable getting it done here. Although, after reading this thread, I must say I'd be a bit nervous!

The point being though, I think having a successful paid request forum would be a big asset to these two sites. If it has a bad reputation at the moment, then even if it isn't intending to, it does reflect on the whole community. So, I think if it's reflecting negatively, which it sounds like it is, then something should be done about it.

imagine the impact, you just read a thread among a lot of threads... on my side, i work on parenting forums all the time, and on other kind of sites too, and most of the admins i know are knot in rings or communities, and when one of them is scammed by "Scammer Not Polite", the information is spread largely... jut one event can be multiplied by 100 if the person post in public groups... and that's something i have seen a lot... i also seen a lot of the opposite, found my name and some others in these rings as a good person which we can discuss with a lot...

everything is possible... but changing the format here was debated so much times... each time we hear from a scammer or a coder who try to advertise his work, we start a new run... and it close as soon as a concensus is made...

Good point about all this.
I do think is important at least to have like a iTrader type of reference.

If this is not safe for both, coders and clients, then this site can get really bad reputation.
In my site I allow sales, but they are all based on the iTrader, most of them wont buy if the other person doesnt have at least 1 good point.

Just my opinion

Paypal does work with disputes. Whether they work with code disputes or not I would not know, as I've never used a coder through paypal.

I said guru as in the overall site, whether they or the escrow department specifically or service that is external, I meant that it can be done through the guru service or an experience. Meaning I could hire a coder from guru, like I did, and if I had a problem the escrow service is right there to deal with problems. It's not like I have to search out a different company to dispute the issue.

Whether a new community or here is irrelevant, just use a similar setup like guru or rentacoder has for coders for hire and projects. We don't need to reinvent the wheel for something that works.

To clarify further on my previous statement, I would use a vB coder if it's specifically and ONLY vB related. But the full vBulletin product is made up of CSS, HTML, Javascript, and PHP. So if you list those as the requirements...assuming I'm not missing any, coders with experience in all those fields should be able to help you. Plus, most custom codes will use a few of those types of code, not all of them. The vBulletin forum and installation of a code is the part where a vB coder specifically would be handy.

Why doesn't this site run itrader or something similar???

Because it is not the focus of this site. vBulletin.org's primary objective is to encourage the sharing of modifications and ideas.

It would only be good for the "Request for paid services" forum... Anywhere else and it's pretty much useless.

Regards Jason :)

Paypal does NOT work with disputes esp if they involve Tangible/Virtual Goods.You will most certainly lose your money if the other side says they have delivered on their side.

Not to be argumentative, but I don't think 99% of the sites running iTrader are focused around classifieds. I use iTrader, and the primary objective of my website is the discussion of guitars and music. I run iTrader as an added convenience in my classifieds area to protect my memberbase.

While i agree nexia with most of the things, but i think its a bit unfair if the coders are blamed all the time also. Many clients that come here are an impatient lot. How many people who code are actually full time coders? Not many and most of the time the people who request service will expect the product delivered in a couple of days. Unless its your full time job, you can sometimes exceed your deadlines. Then the requests keep changing in the middle of the project(not everyone does it but quite a few do) If you refuse, you have a -ve rep coming. Now fact of life is that you usually won't get the +ve feedback always posted but if someone is unhappy he will be sure to post it(prime example is the web hosting business).
I think if you are talking here as a community, then realize that there might not be full time coders around, only those who do it when they have the time to code or when they want to code. Most of the people would be running their own websites, doing a day job and sometimes coding.
If you are looking for professional coders, full time ones, there are indeed plenty of freelance websites around. However then you are also restricting yourself to be answered by a few who will be a lot busier. It should be the clients responsibility to select the best deal he gets. Anywhere he gets it.
Well that might indeed be true and thats great, but if you allow a user feedback in the paid requests(where the client can post a feedback on the work done) then in my opinion you can also allow those opinions to be posted in a central location where its easier to see them for the future clients if they select that coder/(or the other way round, that client's feedback to be seen by the coder). At the end of the day you do ask clients to search for the coder and his rep before you select him. Won't it be better to make the job easier by having the feedback(whoever does leave it) to be at a central place rather than user doing a forum search which might not reveal all the feedback(or any!). Such feedback display can be limited to certain sections only or only in the user profile. Just my opinion.

all feedback etc from the coder and the client should be in the same thread in the request section.No use of the PM system or Chat programs as this allows it to be taken off board and offers no protection to the client or the coder.Should anything go wrong then there is a record of both parties agreement.
Also it allows for both parties to come to a mutual agreement should anything go wrong as the thread can be reported and then the mods intervene to find the best solution to the problem..

This was posted this morning... in the paid requests, somewhere... -- i will not link because the coder involved have no reason to appear in this thread... i'm not talking about the coder itself here, i do not care... what i care is the person who will not come here again for the jobs to be done because of the lack of security in the system... you needed some proofs, you have some... and i did not ask for it.

right now, closing the forum should not be an option (we cannot punish the mass just because of a few bad apples)

• a lot of the "members" who are scammed do not even use the forum
• a lot of the "members" who use the forum do not even leave a feedback
• buyers need to be educated (it really is that simple)
• it works both ways
  • coders get scammed; buyers get scammed
  • coder doesn't do their research on "buyer"
  • buyer doesn't do their research on "coder"

again, you will inevitably get scammed if you do not do your research - would you give your car keys to a stranger?

With that said the best option would be to open a vbulletin.org sister site.

see, i'm right from the start... lol... some guys here told me that it was not a topic to be discussed on vb.org, and now YOU are telling the same thing... you will be warned for sure.. lol

Then it should be easier for both parties to do their research.

There should probably be a mod installed that all positive and negative feedback goes in a section of a user's profile.

Seems at times that the staff are not interested in helping the people being wronged.
I can list one scammer who's really Popular around here and thats the problem, he is still here scamming people.
New threads pop all the time about him and nothing is being done.

After all the scams going on, i think more people will start using services like odesk.com . The average Joe has no idea who to trust around here.

An itrader system would be perfect, the only way people know if someone is a scammer is to read the threads in the requested services.

If you get scammed, take your complaint off site and post it on scam.com , at least people are listening and talking about it there. A search of vbulletin over there will show you that people are getting scammed here.

actually, scam.com is based on the idea that the scammer will never go to the site to explain himself... lately, a lot of supposed scammers were posting there to polute the scam reports, or even to explain with strange comments how they were not scamming...

adding only ratings or comments on scams is not the only problem... i'm refering to the abandon a lot of people are when posting their requests in the paid services... due to small footprints and low budgets, they are abandonned because they are unable to have what they want for the price they are ready to pay.. the more we have that kind of posts, the more the opinion is about to change... coders here are unable to answer these requests because they are not competent enough... that is not the case but it is the image given.

scam.com is the only platform at the moment to vent your frustration if you have been scammed.Its not the best solution,but it gives both parties the chance to reply as both can reply to the same thread and give each others side of the story.

so if we start a sister-side for vb.org, we would need a forum to vent frustrations, we need iTrader-like system, we need a Jobs Ads system, maybe Escrow to manage transactions and disputes...

not complicated... can do that in 24h...

the problem is not the system to use, it is the responsability applied to the one in charge... Jelsoft is against that, we know because all the suggestions made in the past were refused globally... someone will have to face it with a good safety belt and a lawyer... and then, maybe then, Jelsoft would think to refer their clients to that site...

well to be fair we dont need that much.All we need is some common sense and for this board to review the facts when someone claims they been ripped off.If someone is reported for scamming or not paying then their access to the request section should be put on hold until someone has looked over it and decided what the outcome should be.

I still say that any correspondance between coder and client should be in a thread so then there can be no argument as to who is in the wrong.As threads are timestamped and if someone says `will be done in 2 weeks` then if 2 weeks passes and no word in the thread then its pretty obvious who is at fault.

... and we can't say it can't be done easily... http://sitepoint.com is running 100% with vBulletin, and they are using the kind of technique you're refering to, lasto...

I don't see why Macro couldn't put together a paid requests review committee consisting of a combination of Staff members and regular members to meet like once a month (or on the spot for an emergency) to discuss complaints/disputes within the Paid Services area of the site.

From what I gather and see: what has some people upset is the fact that disputes/complaints have been filed and yet those members that have complaints/disputes filed against are still part of this community and the clients feel like the staff doesn't care. Im not saying that the staff doesn't care, its a general observation that I see coming from other members.

Like Danny said tho, we don't know what the staff has said or done behind the scenes, so there MAY be cases of members being suspended or banned that we don't know about.

One thing for certain is there is a current war going on between some clients (which are members) & a certain member. The War is public (both here and on other sites) and as far as I am concerned, it looks bad for the entire community. Its flowing over from the requests forum into many threads, its taking up valuable staff time and its a deterence to concept of this site which is supposed to be a COMMUNITY of support, not a place to rip people off and cut people down.

IMHO, Members (both clients and coders/designers) in this community that purposely rip people off should have certain privs taken away (such as access to the paid request forum, PMs and possible ban depending on the severity of the circumstances)..

I am confident in Marco and his staff tho and I am sure they will come up with a solution that best works for this Community.

Yes, I definitely believe in a sister site, but there would need to be a few moderators to keep control of the place. I would help wherever possible, as I like helping and hate to see people getting scammed; whether it's the buyer or the coder.

As I said in a previous post, we need to take this to someone like Ashley.

Regards Jason :)

.. i personally think that the identification of banned users or rippers would help... if you do not go read the threads related to their threats, you never know.. but if you go see their profile, and if a tag is applied, you know if the member was banned or have bad reputation...

who knows exactly what came up with the recent scammers... were they banned or they just vanished because of any reason?... being banned by the administration is a situation we have to know.. .this indicate that the person was negative... if they just vanish, this may be a personal matter, we never know...

Agree completely.

I agree that user's need to research whom they are doing business with more carefully.
With the coming of vbulletin 3.7.0 and to make it easier, why not use the new profile comments and simply not allow members to manage messages on their own profiles. Clients and coders could leave brief feedback on each other's profiles. Disallow any protracted disputes in the profile comments by limiting feedback to one post by the other user and one response to negative feedback.

I do want to add that I have some (albeit limited) negative experiences with contracts I have done here, and while there is an avenue for the client to post about their experience on a specific job, the coder has limited recourse to respond. We do need some way for both parties to leave feedback in a consolidated and centralized way.