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tgreer 06-05-2006 03:34 PM
I can see that my statements about the staff might cause all sorts of objections. It's always hard to say what you want to say, and get the "tone" correct. I don't know any of the staff personally. I'm sure they are great people, for the most part, trying to do a job as well as they can.

However, this site and the function it serves for vBulletin and the vBulletin community are too important to be run this way. Jelsoft owns it, but takes a "hands off" approach to running it? So instead you have an adhoc staffing community drawn directly from the membership, complete with all the baggage that must necessarily ensue in such an environment. I think that's wrong. I think vbulletin.com and vbulletin.org should be merged, and that JelSoft employees should staff it. Then you wouldn't have thinly disguised personality conflicts derailing the site's operation.

The private "coders discussion" serves to promote and reinforce the elitest, entitlement mentality I sense among many of the plugin authors. That mentality creates a barrier between hack authors and hack users. You say the site is about the coders? Hmm. Without someone willing and wanting to use your hacks, there'd be no reason to release them. Many want to seem to have a private "hackers only" club, and I think that is anathema to the site.

Chris M 06-05-2006 04:32 PM
While I agree that there have been times where personal agendas have intervened with what is correct and what is not to do with moderation duties (I know I am guilty of this at times, so I'm not taking this from a "mightier than thou" standpoint ;)), for the most part the staff here are very fair and are simply following the procedures and rules set out for us...

The main issue is lack of communication - There is little communication between the staff and the members generally, meaning that information about how this site and it's features are progressing is left in the dark, and it aggrivates a situation easily solved by spending 10 minutes maybe once every two weeks writing out a post and informing people how things are progressing...

Wherever you go, paid or volunteer, you are going to encounter personal differences between staff and members; While I agree that for the most part, employing staff to moderate this site would perhaps lessen the confrontations we have seen over recent months, it would not irradicate it entirely; When you are dealing with a site as specific in content such as this, part of a Moderator's duty is to know the in's and out's of this site, meaning taking from the active experienced membership is the only way of ensuring that a basic level of competance is achieved...

Chris

noppid 06-05-2006 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyTarget
as far as your other points, I disagree, it is about the coders, they should be treated differently than normal members and should have some perks (besides the basic benefits) here for releasing their work to us.
I've said it before and now I'll say it again.

It should NOT be about the coders. It should be about the code.

Emabrace the code and the coder becomes secondary. After all, you are here for the functionality of code. Not to become the coders buddy.

Embracing the coder manifests the elitist attitudes. Open up the free code to the community, as the org is intended, and the code dominates, not the coders.

smacklan 06-05-2006 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noppid
I've said it before and now I'll say it again.

It should NOT be about the coders. It should be about the code.

Emabrace the code and the coder becomes secondary. After all, you are here for the functionality of code. Not to become the coders buddy.

Embracing the coder manifests the elitist attitudes. Open up the free code to the community, as the org is intended, and the code dominates, not the coders.
Very well said brother noppid! You have hit the perverbial nail on the head regarding this issue! :)

MPDev 06-05-2006 08:10 PM
It's all about the coders, imo. Without the coders, there would be no code to embrace.

noppid 06-05-2006 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPDev
It's all about the coders, imo. Without the coders, there would be no code to embrace.
A double edge sword. Quite the conundrum. :confused:

Freesteyelz 06-05-2006 09:08 PM
HUH? I come here to escape reality. :D

lasto 06-05-2006 10:49 PM
do people actually know what they are complaining about on here - VB.org has been quiet of late and can see why - what with everyone whinging about one thing or another - get a grip on the matter here,who cares if some decide to pull their hacks - more will come to replace them.
Put the coders in a different usergroup and call em CODERS - should keep em happy and put us mere users in a usergroup called - BEGGING for HELP

that way they feel good when they help us and everyone will be happy then :)

Boofo 06-06-2006 03:21 AM
It shouldn't be all about the coders OR the codees (is that even a word?). Without one, the other wouldn't exist. It needs to be about the community. We all need to work together as one and stop working against one another.

Freesteyelz 06-06-2006 04:05 AM
I dunno, Boofo. The "BEGGING FOR HELP" is rather catchy. :lick:

Boofo 06-06-2006 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freesteyelz
I dunno, Boofo. The "BEGGING FOR HELP" is rather catchy. :lick:
It does have a ring to it but someone like me would have to belong to both groups then and I would get so confused. :(

Gio~Logist 06-06-2006 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
It does have a ring to it but someone like me would have to belong to both groups then and I would get so confused. :(
Reminds me of the time i tried to explain rap music to you.

Corriewf 06-06-2006 04:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gio~logist
Reminds me of the time i tried to explain rap music to you.

Boofo can freestyle you know.... He called me once and did it.. Tell him boofo.

Boofo 06-06-2006 04:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gio~logist
Reminds me of the time i tried to explain rap music to you.
Maybe that's because there IS no explanation for RAP music. :cross-eyed:

Gio~Logist 06-06-2006 04:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
Maybe that's because there IS no explanation for RAP music. :cross-eyed:
Who is boofo, boo who? Boofo. Boo what? boofo.

Coun't to fo' it's boofo. Burn down the roofo! I can rap mucho. Ew, no?

There's your explanation!

Corriewf 06-06-2006 04:19 AM
Did I ever tell you guys that Boofo sounds like the dude off West Coast Choppers on the phone? He does....

Freesteyelz 06-06-2006 04:30 AM
There can only be one Freesteyelz. :banana: I'd love to get back to the rap discussion :D but for now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
It does have a ring to it but someone like me would have to belong to both groups then and I would get so confused.
Code:
<if condition="THIS_PERSON == 'Boofo' AND THIS_TITLE == 'Coder'">
*Boofo is to be sane and not confused*
<else />
<if condition="THIS_PERSON == 'Boofo' AND THIS_TITLE == 'BEGGING FOR HELP">
*Boofo questions identity but sanity remains intact*
<else />
*Boofo is insane, questions identity, is confused but at least has his cheese*
</if></if>
:)

EasyTarget 06-06-2006 04:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noppid
I've said it before and now I'll say it again.

It should NOT be about the coders. It should be about the code.

Emabrace the code and the coder becomes secondary. After all, you are here for the functionality of code. Not to become the coders buddy.

Embracing the coder manifests the elitist attitudes. Open up the free code to the community, as the org is intended, and the code dominates, not the coders.
is the code just going to magically appear? There's a far more limited supply of coders willing to release their work(especially good coders) than there are people needing code.

I'm not saying treat coders as if they're better people for knowing how to code, I'm saying give them some perks, show some more appreciation. Don't expect code to be written for free, don't expect more people to come and replace people who have left. If people feel like their contributions don't mean anything or don't make a difference than they will in fact leave.

There's so many members that seem to think they are entitled to custom code, 24/7 support for all their questions and problems and that everything should happen on their schedule. Maybe there's some misunderstanding with many members that think the coders here are employees or something?

And no where in my posts did I refer to sucking up to coders or trying to become their buddies, etc. As you said, I am here for the code, but I'm not ignorant, I know there's a person on the other end who has to write the code. I don't have to kiss up to them, but I should respect the work they've done, the time they've put in and the fact that they're willing to share it with me.

As far as the private forum thing, why is that such a big deal? Do we even have to know about it? Do you have a forum with some sort of staff section that only you have access to? Does that give you an elitist attitude? Maybe there's some things that coders should be able to discuss behind closed doors, like how to deal with disrespectful members, pointing out security problems in a hack or even reprimanding someone for an elitist attitude :p

Boofo 06-06-2006 04:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freesteyelz
There can only be one Freesteyelz. :banana: I'd love to get back to the rap discussion :D but for now...



Code:
<if condition="THIS_PERSON == 'Boofo' AND THIS_TITLE == 'Coder'">
*Boofo is to be sane and not confused*
<else />
<if condition="THIS_PERSON == 'Boofo' AND THIS_TITLE == 'BEGGING FOR HELP">
*Boofo questions identity but sanity remains intact*
<else />
*Boofo is insane, questions identity, is confused but at least has his cheese*
</if></if>
:)
That will work! In most instances, anyway. ;)

Freesteyelz 06-06-2006 04:39 AM
Coding and Designing teams, as Boofo rightfully stated, unite as one and get on the code! :D

Boofo 06-06-2006 04:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyTarget
is the code just going to magically appear? There's a far more limited supply of coders willing to release their work(especially good coders) than there are people needing code.

I'm not saying treat coders as if they're better people for knowing how to code, I'm saying give them some perks, show some more appreciation. Don't expect code to be written for free, don't expect more people to come and replace people who have left. If people feel like their contributions don't mean anything or don't make a difference than they will in fact leave.

There's so many members that seem to think they are entitled to custom code, 24/7 support for all their questions and problems and that everything should happen on their schedule. Maybe there's some misunderstanding with many members that think the coders here are employees or something?

And no where in my posts did I refer to sucking up to coders or trying to become their buddies, etc. As you said, I am here for the code, but I'm not ignorant, I know there's a person on the other end who has to write the code. I don't have to kiss up to them, but I should respect the work they've done, the time they've put in and the fact that they're willing to share it with me.

As far as the private forum thing, why is that such a big deal? Do we even have to know about it? Do you have a forum with some sort of staff section that only you have access to? Does that give you an elitist attitude? Maybe there's some things that coders should be able to discuss behind closed doors, like how to deal with disrespectful members, pointing out security problems in a hack or even reprimanding someone for an elitist attitude :p
We are all the same, just some of us already know how to code and some of us don't. The ones that don't will be filling the shoes of the ones that do when they move on. It's a cycle. No one is above reproach here as this is a sharing and learning site. Some coders have a hard time admitting that they didn't know squat when they started out. If you feed their egos as you are suggesting, then that makes it even easier for them to not remember. I agree they should be shown the respect and admiration for their ability to code. By overdoing it is not the answer, either. There are enough egos floating around here as it is without compounding the problem. I little humility can be had by all from time to time.

Boofo 06-06-2006 04:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gio~logist
Who is boofo, boo who? Boofo. Boo what? boofo.

Coun't to fo' it's boofo. Burn down the roofo! I can rap mucho. Ew, no?

There's your explanation!
I stand by my post and this proves my point expertly. :cross-eyed:

Freesteyelz 06-06-2006 05:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
There are enough egos floating around here
http://www.verysolutions.com/forums/...ilies/toot.gif

EasyTarget 06-06-2006 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
We are all the same, just some of us already know how to code and some of us don't. The ones that don't will be filling the shoes of the ones that do when they move on. It's a cycle. No one is above reproach here as this is a sharing and learning site. Some coders have a hard time admitting that they didn't know squat when they started out. If you feed their egos as you are suggesting, then that makes it even easier for them to not remember. I agree they should be shown the respect and admiration for their ability to code. By overdoing it is not the answer, either. There are enough egos floating around here as it is without compounding the problem. I little humility can be had by all from time to time.
how am I suggesting to feed their egos? what am I suggesting that is overdoing it? In fact, I don't think I've suggested anything besides giving respect, just everyone here is so caught up in thinking that all coders are egotistical that just mentioning respect for coders seems to mean I'm saying they're better than everyone else.

If you're read my some of my other threads you've seen that I thought people like amy and paul (from what I can tell their hacks are some of the most used) could polish the way they speak to members sometimes (same with zachery and chris.. if zachery is the same one at vbadvanced).

Just read the words that I'm writing without adding your own meaning and history here to them. I'm trying to be objective.. as you can tell I'm no coder and I'm not a moderator, I get no benefit for spending time in this part of the forums.

And that cycle (coders leave, members learn code and replace them) isn't really as global as you make it sound.. how many members, who don't know a thing about code, actually go on to become coders and release hacks here? (yes, I'm aware that there's a few, my point is that 90/95% or more don't)

Boofo 06-06-2006 06:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyTarget
how am I suggesting to feed their egos? what am I suggesting that is overdoing it? In fact, I don't think I've suggested anything besides giving respect, just everyone here is so caught up in thinking that all coders are egotistical that just mentioning respect for coders seems to mean I'm saying they're better than everyone else.

If you're read my some of my other threads you've seen that I thought people like amy and paul (from what I can tell their hacks are some of the most used) could polish the way they speak to members sometimes (same with zachery and chris.. if zachery is the same one at vbadvanced).

Just read the words that I'm writing without adding your own meaning and history here to them. I'm trying to be objective.. as you can tell I'm no coder and I'm not a moderator, I get no benefit for spending time in this part of the forums.

And that cycle (coders leave, members learn code and replace them) isn't really as global as you make it sound.. how many members, who don't know a thing about code, actually go on to become coders and release hacks here? (yes, I'm aware that there's a few, my point is that 90/95% or more don't)
Ok, let me ask you this then? Do you think that all of the coders here came here knowing how to code? Some will claim they did, and some of them are blowing smoke in that claim. There are a few who did, yes, but not nearly as many as you would think there is. The coders today or no more important than the coders of tomorrow are is all I'm saying. We don't have the same community spirit now that we used to have when I started (Yes, the Chen days is what I am speaking of). Everyone seems to have gotten off track with all the "us and them" talk of late. And the main problem is exactly what most of them are complaining about./ the lack of respect and acknowledgment.

I Don't care about the respect of acknowledgment, myself, as I am old enough to know that coding ability has very little to do with that in the real world. That and that fact that I suck at coding. ;)

So, I am not adding any more meaning to your words than what I read into them, like anyone will read. ;)

kall 06-06-2006 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
Do you think that all of the coders here came here knowing how to code? Some will claim they did, and some of them are blowing smoke in that claim.
I'm one that came here knowing veeeery little about code. :)

I currently know only a small amount...I can read it and know what it does, but coming up with anything radically new is beyond me.

My hat is off to everyone who releases something new that someone else finds useful.

Boofo 06-06-2006 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kall
I'm one that came here knowing veeeery little about code. :)

I currently know only a small amount...I can read it and know what it does, but coming up with anything radically new is beyond me.

My hat is off to everyone who releases something new that someone else finds useful.
Exactly! And that is the way it should be. For everyone. If more people felt that way, the "them and us" crap might never have ever gotten started. ;)

Revan 06-06-2006 08:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyTarget
is the code just going to magically appear? There's a far more limited supply of coders willing to release their work(especially good coders) than there are people needing code.

I'm not saying treat coders as if they're better people for knowing how to code, I'm saying give them some perks, show some more appreciation. Don't expect code to be written for free, don't expect more people to come and replace people who have left. If people feel like their contributions don't mean anything or don't make a difference than they will in fact leave.

There's so many members that seem to think they are entitled to custom code, 24/7 support for all their questions and problems and that everything should happen on their schedule. Maybe there's some misunderstanding with many members that think the coders here are employees or something?

And no where in my posts did I refer to sucking up to coders or trying to become their buddies, etc. As you said, I am here for the code, but I'm not ignorant, I know there's a person on the other end who has to write the code. I don't have to kiss up to them, but I should respect the work they've done, the time they've put in and the fact that they're willing to share it with me.

As far as the private forum thing, why is that such a big deal? Do we even have to know about it? Do you have a forum with some sort of staff section that only you have access to? Does that give you an elitist attitude? Maybe there's some things that coders should be able to discuss behind closed doors, like how to deal with disrespectful members, pointing out security problems in a hack or even reprimanding someone for an elitist attitude :p
Agree++;
Besides, I hear rumours that there's a designer forum available and hidden, but I have never in my life heard anyone whining about how everybody can't access this.
Disclaimer: I dont know if it exists, I just heard it randomly mentioned in a post somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
We are all the same, just some of us already know how to code and some of us don't. The ones that don't will be filling the shoes of the ones that do when they move on. It's a cycle. No one is above reproach here as this is a sharing and learning site. Some coders have a hard time admitting that they didn't know squat when they started out. If you feed their egos as you are suggesting, then that makes it even easier for them to not remember. I agree they should be shown the respect and admiration for their ability to code. By overdoing it is not the answer, either. There are enough egos floating around here as it is without compounding the problem. I little humility can be had by all from time to time.
I came to the org knowing sod all about coding. I had done a simple if...else chain to add a variable to a template on a wBB board.
My first thread here was this, and even though that thread implies that I knew coding just because I had worked on the conversion, trust me it doesnt.
I had hassled with the problem the thread was about for 3 months, and it was fixed by changing a complicated for() to a simple while().
Nobody with coding knowledge was able to help, as you can see per the thread. True, I fixed it on my own in such a short time that there wasn't much chance for people to reply, but still.

My point? My point is that I have no problems with admitting that just two years ago I was PHP illiterate, my HTML/JS knowledge could make even Boofo laugh (and would probably make K-A cry :p) and yet I am pro-giving coders/designers perks for contributing to the site.

As for the ego argument, it is very true that some will take on a holier than thou attitude. But even if you strip away everything, make coders have the Member branch of titles, take away the private forum, everything, those people will still have said attitude. They will just ahve a harder time showing it off, which IMO is counter-productive as it hurts the coders that just wants to feel appreciated by the staff without walking around on clouds.
If one would say that coders shouldnt need to feel appreciated because contributing to the community is its own reward and whatnot, then I call bs. As a coder of a Major Addon, I know first hand how demanding some users can be. And how many such users flock to your hacks. It's just nice to have something to fall back on, something to take your mind off the users that piss you off.

Im not saying that coders should have to be sacrificed a firstborn to in order to be communicated with, Im just saying I can't see any severe con to giving them some extra benefits beyond a private forum and a title. After all, time and time again customers have said that they choose vB because of the hacks available to it, and until the day where vB codes everything under the sun and offers it as modules for the stock software, coders are needed.
Yes coders will be replaced, eventually. Keyword eventually. If I were to take my RPG away today, do you honestly think that tomorrow someone would recode one from scratch and offer it here for free? No, and in the between time, the users would be on their own. Im just saying that if anything can be done to prevent coders/designers from leaving and it doesn't sound ludicrous (such as "give coders a free vB lic" does), I see no immediate reason why it can't be done.


Just my NOK 0,0033 (rougly converted)
Request: Unless I am mistaken, I avoided using sarcasm in this post. If you are going to reply, please try to do the same. Not only is sarcasm harder to detect in text, it doesn't promote a healthy, "cold" debate.
Thank you for understanding.

Boofo 06-06-2006 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revan
Agree++;
Besides, I hear rumours that there's a designer forum available and hidden, but I have never in my life heard anyone whining about how everybody can't access this.
Disclaimer: I dont know if it exists, I just heard it randomly mentioned in a post somewhere.

I came to the org knowing sod all about coding. I had done a simple if...else chain to add a variable to a template on a wBB board.
My first thread here was this, and even though that thread implies that I knew coding just because I had worked on the conversion, trust me it doesnt.
I had hassled with the problem the thread was about for 3 months, and it was fixed by changing a complicated for() to a simple while().
Nobody with coding knowledge was able to help, as you can see per the thread. True, I fixed it on my own in such a short time that there wasn't much chance for people to reply, but still.

My point? My point is that I have no problems with admitting that just two years ago I was PHP illiterate, my HTML/JS knowledge could make even Boofo laugh (and would probably make K-A cry :p) and yet I am pro-giving coders/designers perks for contributing to the site.

As for the ego argument, it is very true that some will take on a holier than thou attitude. But even if you strip away everything, make coders have the Member branch of titles, take away the private forum, everything, those people will still have said attitude. They will just ahve a harder time showing it off, which IMO is counter-productive as it hurts the coders that just wants to feel appreciated by the staff without walking around on clouds.
If one would say that coders shouldnt need to feel appreciated because contributing to the community is its own reward and whatnot, then I call bs. As a coder of a Major Addon, I know first hand how demanding some users can be. And how many such users flock to your hacks. It's just nice to have something to fall back on, something to take your mind off the users that piss you off.

Im not saying that coders should have to be sacrificed a firstborn to in order to be communicated with, Im just saying I can't see any severe con to giving them some extra benefits beyond a private forum and a title. After all, time and time again customers have said that they choose vB because of the hacks available to it, and until the day where vB codes everything under the sun and offers it as modules for the stock software, coders are needed.
Yes coders will be replaced, eventually. Keyword eventually. If I were to take my RPG away today, do you honestly think that tomorrow someone would recode one from scratch and offer it here for free? No, and in the between time, the users would be on their own. Im just saying that if anything can be done to prevent coders/designers from leaving and it doesn't sound ludicrous (such as "give coders a free vB lic" does), I see no immediate reason why it can't be done.


Just my NOK 0,0033 (rougly converted)
Request: Unless I am mistaken, I avoided using sarcasm in this post. If you are going to reply, please try to do the same. Not only is sarcasm harder to detect in text, it doesn't promote a healthy, "cold" debate.
Thank you for understanding.
See? This is the kind of posts we need from more coders. I heartily agree there should be more recognition for coders, I always have. I just don't think erecting a monument or giving them free cheese (hmmmm... cheese) is the answer (unless your name is Boofo, of course, and then the monument better be a big one with something like... "you are my God and I wanna be like you when I grow up" somewhere on it).

By the way, there was no sarcasm anywhere in my post. I was serious about my monument.

Revan 06-06-2006 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
See? This is the kind of posts we need from more coders. I heartily agree there should be more recognition for coders, I always have.
Oh, I must have misunderstood your previous posts (or not read them well enough), my bad :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
I just don't think erecting a monument or giving them free cheese (hmmmm... cheese) is the answer (unless your name is Boofo, of course, and then the monument better be a big one with something like... "you are my God and I wanna be like you when I grow up" somewhere on it).

By the way, there was no sarcasm anywhere in my post. I was serious about my monument.
I agree on the monument of Boofo but I think it should be more like "kids if you ever turn out like this imma come smack you" :p

Boofo 06-06-2006 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revan
Oh, I must have misunderstood your previous posts (or not read them well enough), my bad :)
I'm sure most of them don't come off the way I meant them at the time. I just get sick of the "us and them" comparisons all the time, you know what I mean?

Quote:
I agree on the monument of Boofo but I think it should be more like "kids if you ever turn out like this imma come smack you" :p
We definitely need to have a talk, son. I have earned that monument by putting up with abuse just like this for sooooo long. :(

JayJay 06-06-2006 09:37 AM
Whilst I agree with the recent posts by Revan, I wish to throw in an additional aspect that has not been looked at in any detail in this thread.

There's a part in which us 'normal' members can play, and that is through making qualitative posts on modification threads - especially when asking for help. How many times have you seen somebody say that a coder's modification just doesn't work, yet doesn't explain the problem that they are facing? Surely this aggrovates the coder. With more members here at .org than there possibly has been in the past, this sort of thing is probably far more evidential than it was in the past.

There is also another aspect, which I'm sure is trying to be avoided because of the type of debate that arises from it due to a lack of understanding, and that is through normal members giving a little back to the coders themselves through small donations here and there to those modifications that make our lives, as administrators of our own communities, so much easier!

At vB.org we are a community, and that is something which we should not lose sight of. As such, we all have our parts to play (be it the Cheese Meister or the person who is required to erect Boofo's monument) and should not be naive to that fact and start blaming the staff here (who give up endless amounts of time - in addition to other commitments) for what can appear as a mass-exodus to those who know the coders who have left.

Just to reilliterate, it is a loss to see some good coders leave and they are more than welcome back (as is anybody) here and maybe one day they will return. However, in the meantime, it is vital that as a community we work with what we have;

"Treasure what you have, as you could lose it at any moment".

(Boofo, don't tell me that brought a tear to your eye please ;))

Boofo 06-06-2006 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayJ
(Boofo, don't tell me that brought a tear to your eye please ;))
I'm a man, dammit! Things like that have no effect on me. :cross-eyed:

[high]* Boofo runs for the Kleenex like a wimped-out sissy![/high]

peterska2 06-06-2006 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revan
My point? My point is that I have no problems with admitting that just two years ago I was PHP illiterate, my HTML/JS knowledge could make even Boofo laugh (and would probably make K-A cry :p) and yet I am pro-giving coders/designers perks for contributing to the site.
Hey I totally understand that.

I knew absolutely zip about HTML, CSS, JS or PHP when I first started out. A trip down memory lane just confirms this:
My 3rd post on the site
My first modification

Looking back now, I cringe. But there were people who helped me to learn then, so I help other people where I can.

My PHP is still very limited, but I can create a product to include a custom template.

What I'm trying to say (and not making a very good job of it :( ), is that if experienced vBulletin users (doesn't have to be coders for some things) help others out when they ask questions or get stuck, then in turn as they learn they will do the same. Some people might head into coding (PHP or HTML), some into skinning, but others will be happy realising that they have learned a little bit and can get by.

The other thing is that it doesn't matter how experienced a user or coder you are, you can still make mistakes or not know the answer to something. I've made one yesterday which I hadn't even realised. The problem was easily solved, but it puzzled me why the person should be getting an error. In fact someone else pointed out why, which I appreciated.

The whole idea of a community is to help each other, and sometimes things are not quick fixes, or someone can hash together a quick fix for something while a better permanent fix is sorted out. Some of the most common questions that come up are things that are set by vB Options and most vB Admins should be able to answer them questions. Admittedly, you might have to look something up, but everyone has to check things from time to time anyway, even the Jelsoft staff at vB.com get things wrongs sometimes so don't worry, if everyone just does their best then everyone will be able to help someone even if it is in the smallest way possible.


(eeek it took me that long to get my wording and sentiment right - plus being disturbed by the phone - that the world and his wife has already posted!)

Revan 06-06-2006 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
I'm sure most of them don't come off the way I meant them at the time. I just get sick of the "us and them" comparisons all the time, you know what I mean?
Yeah I hear ya on that one, after all (in spite of what you like to think) you are only human :p
But on that "us and them" aspect, I don't think that the fact that there is an "us and them" aspect that's the problem. Humans are like that, I believe. We like to stick people in containers and label them. The problem is that we shouldn't double NY-lock shut the doors to anyone who wish to sniff around our container :p If that even made sense.
And I am fully aware of the fact that the above sounds a bit hypocritical coming from me, given the fact that my post count in the PHP/XHTML/JS forum is pretty darn low, and I don't have any good excuses as to why that is so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
We definitely need to have a talk, son. I have earned that monument by putting up with abuse just like this for sooooo long. :(
Hey your the one who blocked ME on MSN remember? You walked out on ME, so don't be putting the blame on me mister! You said it was over, so I said fine, then you said fine. YOU started it! :cry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterska2
[high]* Revan tries to restrain the laughter :p[/high]
Nah seriously, it's amazing how far we have gotten isn't it? :)

Boofo 06-06-2006 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revan
Hey your the one who blocked ME on MSN remember? You walked out on ME, so don't be putting the blame on me mister! You said it was over, so I said fine, then you said fine. YOU started it! :cry:
And not one lick of spousal support either. :(

Revan 06-06-2006 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
And not one lick of spousal support either. :(
What would you have me do? I was hurt and angry :(

Boofo 06-06-2006 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revan
What would you have me do? I was hurt and angry :(
I suppose we could kiss and make up and long as you promise not to tell a soul and ruin my manly image. Shhhhh...

Revan 06-06-2006 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boofo
I suppose we could kiss and make up and long as you promise not to tell a soul and ruin my manly image. Shhhhh...
Sounds like a deal.
[high]* Revan gives Boofo a man-hug to keep up appearances[/high]

peterska2 06-06-2006 10:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revan
[high]* Revan tries to restrain the laughter :p[/high]
Nah seriously, it's amazing how far we have gotten isn't it? :)
Yeah, I dream in div's classes and tables now! I even catch myself talking in if conditions from time to time. I did in the supermarket on Friday with my Dad.

Dad: What do you want for tea?
Me: if chips then chicken else lasagne
Dad: You what?????

I love diging out some of my really early stuff and laughing at it. Maybe one day I'll be able to stop laughing long enough to see about making it work with 3.6 (I won't get it done before then, I can promise that) and making the code all pretty like I do these days.


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