Now we have a discussion! :)

Is this where we go "wo0t"? :banana: (Thanks for inserting rap. :D)


1. Lyrics is the written but unspoken word. Again, many rap songs have "rock" music in them; many rock songs have rap influences in them.

2. Hip-Hop is what it is. Rap is a component of music, it's just not singing (although many rap songs are accompanied with singing). Music is anything rhythmic, anything harmonious and yes, anything vocal that's presented in an expressive way. Drop beats and/or harmonious tunes over rhymes and viola, you have music.

3. David Bowie is considered Classic Rock.


1. The spoken word is talking (even poetic presentations is considered under this category). Rapping is a rhythmic flow of vocalization that overlays a 4/4 musical pattern similar to rock.

The above is rather an unintelligent statement. Rap, at least the basis of rap, is not gangsta rap. It does not promote violence of any sort. What you read in the papers, see on tv and hear on the radio is the media's sensationalization of rap and Hip-Hop culture. Like with any musical genre, let alone culture, there are bad seeds. Those who exercise violence are the minority and should be dealt with to the extent of the law.

As smacklan mentioned in a previous post, it's rather unfortunate for rap. Though, when rock & roll first came about it too was welcome with hostility by those who did not understand it. Isn't it odd how similar rock is to rap?

I'm not sure where you are getting your so-called facts about RAP but you need to update the nook or look elsewhere for truer facts about it. Everything you've posted in here so far is of your opinion, just like ours, and has nothing to do with facts as far as I can see.

Rock NEVER had the hostility involved with it that RAP does. I Don't remember a whole lot of drive-bys going on when the Guess Who released "American Woman". Maybe I didn't read the paper that day? ;)

I'm glad you don't call it music as well :p

I haven't seen that in bands formed before 1980. Should I remind you again that I'm not talking about modern rock?

Ok, since today I will call every fight with my mother music. It its vocal and expressive, isn't it? :banana:

I haven't heard his music. But as for Aerosmith or Queen, their music is far better than any rap "song" that I've ever heard.

Perhaps you are confusing rap with music like eg Linkin Park that has rap influences?

Then again they weren't taking shots at other artist in American women....

At any rate there have been tons of things thrown around in the 'rock world', although it may not be on the radio depending on where you live. Hell maybe you don't consider it 'real rock' but it still falls in line just like gangster rap is part of the rap movement.

I really don't understand how someone can say rap is bad on the whole just because of the things a few people in the rap movement say. Yet it's perfectly fine for someone to yell how the hate the world and want to kill people at the top of their lungs, as long as it's done with a guitar company.

It's a two way street....and it's not just rock and rap. The same can be said about country music and everything else I'm sure.

The Clasic Rock I grew up listening to didn't have anyone "yelling how the hate the world and want to kill people at the top of their lungs." I think one of he worse songs for being out of the main tream at the time was D.O.A. by Blookdrock. That was quite a departure at the time but was an excellent song.

I think you are confusing Clasic Rock with today's Rock.

I'm not confusing them, I'm trying to point out that you guys are quick to say rap is bad music based on one type of it, while at the same time you split rock up into these nice little sub-groups.

;)

Wow.. obviously the majority of you guys aren't musicians.. yeesh.

I don't think I've ever seen a more narrow-minded group of people.. and I've seen a LOT of them.

I feel like I'm in high school again when I read this thread. "This isn't MUSIC cause I don't like it! blah blah."

Define music then, cause Freesteyelz pretty much summed it up for you and proved everyone wrong.. heh.

PS: Personally, I'm not a huge fan of rap. I like a few artists here and there, and that's about it.. but the artists in rap that I do like, I like more than the majority of any other music I listen to.

Blah, this is pointless.

TBH
Jim Morrison in "The End" shouts "Kill, kill, kill", doesn't he? :p

(See, I'm not narrow minded :p)

You think that because we don't advertise we have ever played in a band that you can tell that from any of our responses? That's narrow minded in itself.

Freesteyelz didn't prove anything. He spewed out so-called facts without any documentation of any kind to back then up. I would call that an opinion and not proving anything.

And Michelle, I am disappointed in you now. What Jim Morrision said in the song was totally different than anything that gets said or yelled in your common rap song. Even you should realize that. Saying it once in a drug-outed moment does even compare.

Notice the smilies in my post please.

I have no interest in sharing my opinions while discussing the origins of rap or any other musical genre for that matter. If I don't know it to be factual, I simply won't state it. To do so will just be a waste of my time. My intent is really to separate the untruths from the truths and not to sway anyone to become a fan of rap.

Now since it is the claim that what I've stated to be opinions and not facts, I'd like to pursue the discussion. My position is that the origin of rap was never about violence, drugs or negativity. But are there violence and drugs in the Hip-Hop culture? Yes. Though, the violence and drugs are not the Hip-Hop culture nor were they ever expressed in the original rap songs. That is a key difference.

So, which claim should we analyze first?

Rock has it's share of hostility but that's not what I was referring to. Many parents and adults back in the day did not understand Rock & Roll and took an aggressive stand against it. Their views and the movement to ban Rock & Roll were hostile.

Now the violence of today cannot be compared to the violence of yesterday. It's no longer about chains and knives but about guns. Now drive-by shootings isn't about rap but about pride, gangs, territories and money. Drive-bys were actually made famous by Cosa Nostra, decades before rap came into existence.

Well, sir, they are still opinions as far as I am concerned. You stating it is factual, does not make is so. I could state something is factual, and if you never researched it, how would you know if it was factual or not?

RAP music glorifies violence whereas Classic Rock didn't. THAT is the point I was making and still stand by.

I knew that, I was just giving you a hard time. I guess I should have done one in mine, huh? ;)

Go Beatles!

That's all I have to say on the subject. :)

"Gangsta" rap does but most rap do not glorify violence.

My assumption is that you're placing all styles of rap, including the original intent of rap, under one roof in which promotes violence. Is that correct? If the answer is yes, then much to say that most, if not all rap songs are about violence. I hope I'm wrong in my assumption.

Anyway, here is a quote from Mr. Wiggles, who is a pioneer of the Hip-Hop culture and of funk, Poppin' and Lockin' dance styles:

I think music is a reflection of society...just like movies. Ours is a violent society today, much more so than 35-40 years ago. Things have become very complicated. We have throw away marraiges, pregnancies, lives, etc. It's a society of instant gratification without a great deal of concern for the future...short or longterm. Now, who's to blame for this?...we all are...for tolerating what would have been unimaginable just a generation or two ago. It makes me wonder who much further "out there" things can get...in society and music.

Try listening to a 48 minute stint of Cat Stevens. When did blackbirds ever start speaking? Oh the memories.

Don't be dissin' Cat Stevens, Shelley. I've talked to blackbirds a time or two in my earlier days. :cross-eyed:

Not all rap music glorifies violence. You're being very generic.

I could say rock was all about sex and drugs. All techno is repitive crap for kids tripping on ecstacy. Metal is all about satan. Punk is all about anarchy. On and on and on.

Anyways I enjoy a wide variety of music from Jonny Cash to Bon Scott to Daft Punk to Altar to Chuck D. I casn't think of a genre of music that I completely hate, aside from boy "bands".

But Cat Steven still prevails. right?

Oooo. Daft Punks' "Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger" is the jam. Nice one, TruthElixirX. :) We can get to Chuck D later too. :classic:

*Speaking of Cat Stevens (Yusuf Islam), well he's not the best example of promoting positive music. He was after all banned from the U.S. for supporting terrorism and promoting anti-government activities.

It is but like with anything else there are different ways to express it. Music is no different. For example!

A lot of rap artists used this bridge to move party goers. The lyrics had a positive message. While the song below was not the first rap song, it was the first rap song to hit the national scene:

Rapper's Delight (click to review the lyrics)

It was over a 15 minute of non-stop, partying record. The rhymes were dropped over the samples of Chic's "Good Times". The lyrics weren't the best but the vibe of the song made you want to get up and dance. It was feel good music...And this is how it all began.

There's much more to the Old School days and if continue onward we can tap into the era of the Conscience and Stop The Violence Movement.

Don't get to excited, first and foremost I'm a metal head. :cool:

Satanist! Hehe. JK. :D

ahaha, word. yea, i grew up around rap and hiphop...i lived in the ghetto as a very small child...lol. so, thats what i adapted to.....:).

actually i am. ;). ive been writing songs and bouncing them to beats since i was younger.

and no, not all rap is about promoting violence. will smith doesnt cuss in his lyrics, or attack anyone. hes a rapper. your thinking of "gangster rap" as freestyles stated. ice cube, nwa, etc....were trying to tell yall that not all rap is the same...alot of underground rappers bring alot of different stuff to the tables, not talking about burning a cat or drive-by shootings. and the people that live nextdoor to my work stand outside all day listening to rock and roll LOUD as can be and start trouble all the time...thats like saying if u watch a friday the 13th movie ur going to turn into jason and murder all. lol. ive listened to the hardest rap and im still the nicest kid....aint change me none. all rock is to me is a guy with loud music saying his girlfriends name over and over....lol. but i dont say that...dont hate on it if u dont understand the culture. period. :)

No, I'm not being generic. Most maintream Rap is vioent. Sure, there might be a few off-shoots from the mainstream, that don't advocate violence (although I have yet to here any that don't).

No, just because it is main stream doesn't mean it is the largest branch. Popular != largest.

You want some? Check out J-5, Public Enemy, Fort Minor, Will Smith, The Roots, need I name more?

No, you go ahead. If I want to listen to talking, I'll just make a phone call. :)

In other words, someone talking over a tune (or sort of tune) ........ :banana:

Exactly, I beat you on one front and instead of admiting it, you just switch to a completely different thing.

I've listened to most everything out there (almost every genre - including oldies ... no not 70s oldies, but 40s, and 50s oldies). I've listened every generation's style of what was considered "rock." I've listened to jazz, soul, rap, r&b, hip-hop, blues, country, bluegrass, instrumental, classical, rock, alternative, christian, gospel, most anything out there - I've listened to or at least sampled. I can't truly say that anything really stands out that has truly made an impact as a song by itself. However, when paired with an emotion, then we have a different outlook. Such as Wind of Change (Scorpions) when the wall came down, things of that nature - that's what makes an impact. It's not the music itself, but the association of the music to the emotion. I'm not an expert on music, but this is my opinion. ~Snarf lol

You didn't beat anything. I will stick by my statement that most mainstream Rap DOES promote violence. Will Smith is not considered mainstream.

The Scorpions are one of my all-time favorites. Excellent song. I have yet to hear them do a bad song. ;)

Definately!...and a good point christianb...music evokes emotions and memories...thats what makes it special to me.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here.

Wait, that's not right. I agree with this. ;)

You're the man Boofo but I disagree completely on this one.

The Alice Cooper comparison - absolutely. However Manson's band is better, his songs are better, his lyrics are better and as a whole he's a much better musician than Cooper is. As far as live shows go, I've seen both and while I give cooper a slight edge, Manson's live performances are nothing short of spectacular.

It's worth mentioning that Alice is to this day the best concert I have ever seen, and I saw him ~8 years ago when I was 22 and the majority of his "best" years were well behind him. Basically it wasn't even my generation's music and he absolutely blew me away. Not to take anything away from MM who is also fantastic, but Cooper is just flawless live.

That said, Manson is certainly taking a lot of inspiration from him, but he's hardly a "pathetic copycat". He's picking up where Cooper left off, if anything. If you aren't into Metal I can understand why you wouldn't care for MM, but don't dismiss his entire catalog if you have only heard the handful of radio hits he's released. He's a BRILLIANT songwriter, and his band is excellent.

The Ozzy comparison is way off base though, apples and oranges. Ozzy was a metal singer writing rock songs. Manson writes heavy metal, conceptual art. He's closer to a dark/heavy David Bowie than he is to Ozzy.

I agree to a point. The majority of Rap that I've been exposed to (which is quite a bit), while a "performance art" no doubt, simply isn't music. I am a musician. My instrument is the guitar. If you're a singer, your voice is your instrument, a violinist, a pianist, etc. If you're relying on computer generated samples and programmed drum tracks for your backline, and the best you can do is talk over them - that's not music, that's Dr. Seuss.

Every band is capable of putting out a lousy song. However those bands you mentioned are comprised of musicans writing original material, whereas the majority of rappers are reciting lyrics over a looped sample, and half the time those samples were recorded, written, arranged and basically birthed by an actual artist.

I play guitar. I'm classically trained, but I'm a metal guitarist, and I'm a shredder. I can play In The Hall Of The Mountain King, and I put my own style on it and turn it into a shred/metal piece. That doesn't mean that I wrote it, but at the same time it takes a decent degree of skill to pull it off. (And by decent, I mean quite a bit). I've been playing for almost 20 years, and I practice my ASS off.

If you buy a guitar, you are a guitarist. When you work at it, then you become a musician. If I wanted to put out a rap album, I can buy some software, loop some samples and read this post over it in a verse/cadence, and voila, I have crafted a rap song.

Some of rap's origins may be the blues, but I'm sorry, Jay-Z has as much in common with roots Blues as I do with an astronaut.

Most rappers aren't musicians, they're performers and entertainers. Granted there are exceptions to every rule, and you can certainly be both at the same time. Please point me to a brilliantly written, composed rap piece PLAYED BY MUSICIANS that isn't the work of a team of producers, that doesn't require samples and isn't borrowing melodies from any other artist.

Not to nitpick, but the time signature has absolutely nothing to do with it. You can speak in odd meter over a pattern in odd meter. At the same time, not all rock is 4/4, it's just the easiest and most basic time signature to play in, as well as the most naturally listenable.

If you want to try some fun counting, listen to the new Tool single, Vicarious, and listen to the first 15 seconds or so. Those are polyrythms, and if a rapper were talented enough to double vocal lines like that, I'm sure it would certainly sound interesting. Lots of classical/opera pieces have them in there - it's a LOT of counting and extremely hard to write but the end result is fantastic from a technical standpoint.

Such will be the bane of musicians for all time. Try being a metal guitarist. ;) I'm a progressive-ambient-metal-shred-rock-guitarist. But oh no, I have an acoustic piece with classical overtones, and I do play some polyrythms, and throw in some bluesy bits, so my album is a progressive-ambient-metal-shred-rock-blues-classical-acoustic record!

Which category is that on Amazon.com, again? :D

Best post in this thread.

Anyway, my final points:

- I now have the longest post in this thread.
- As the token music guy (see my site in my sig), that's my job.
- Whatever you enjoy is up to you, and hell, if you want to fart into a microphone and that's what you want to hear and you enjoy it, more power to you.

I'll never like rap. I won't deny that some of it has merit, but in a nutshell for the most part, not as a whole I do not consider rappers to be musicians in any sense of the word. They are artists and entertainers.

Being a musician is something very special that takes an enormous commitment, and I am in a small way offended when these talentless hacks are being given (by the media) a denomination that has taken me almost 20 years of my life to obtain.

I AM a musician because I have worked at it, I have lived for it, and after countless hours, days, years, I have earned it. It's not something you can buy, and not something the media can give you. That's something that I think only other musicians will ever understand.

Right... Can I quote that again?

...

His wife's band is metal.

http://www.wickedwisdom.net/

There's irony here! :D

My post is long. Blame it on the timezone. Bleh...


About Will Smith: Is considered "mainstream rap" since it has a lot of air play on the national and international level. He promotes positivity. I've listened to him (as Fresh Prince) and DJ Jazzy Jeff from the time they both came onto the scene in 85/86'. :)

@Paul M: No. Talking over beats is considered the Spoken Word but remains in the music category. ;) A musician uses a device to produce music. A device can be anything, including the voice. The voice can produce melodic (which by itself can be music) and non-melodic sounds (which is a component of music) as far as I remember. Anyone wish to verify that? :D

@Chris-777: Let's nitpick a moment. All rap came from the blues (and so did rock). Not just some (rap) as you've stated above. (Rap can be traced further back in history.)

Jay-Z, I agree. I don't listen to him, Diddy or Master P and most of the mainstream you hear today and back in the day. I have my preferences just like the next person.

You've mentioned about finding any rap artist that has written song(s) in its entirety without overlayed samples that are played with live musicians. I can name many actually but I'll name two: MC Hammer (2 Legit 2 Quit). Now he'll be the first to tell you that he's a entertainer/performer first and rapper second. Dr. Dre has also composed original songs from the lyrics to beats to music to production. According to the Music Industry what they do is considered music.

You say that you're classically trained. I'll give you props to that. I never went to a specialized school but have been playing the piano (now keyboards) and ukulele just over 22 years now. Yes, people who did B-Boying and were involved in the Hip-Hop culture can have other talents too. :) Well, definitely not as much as when I was younger. I'll definitely get back into it.

With the time signature of rap you're off. There is a discipline to it. Though, I won't compare Opera and classical as they are totally different and the pinnacle to all musical structures.

Just little over a decade now there have been a movement of DJ's who've commited themselves into the art of "Turntablism". Basically they use their turntables as instruments. They practice day-in and day-out. It has a lot of discipline. Does what they do any less than what you do as a guitarist?

-----

Anyway, going to my original topic, not all rap is gangsta rap; and not all rap promotes/glorifies violence. The mainstream, while is not the majority, do have the loudest voices since they get the most air play. It's too bad that's what you hear but as Flavor Flav always said, "Don't believe the hype". :)

Let me enlighten you as someone who knows just a smidge about production. Actually, I won't even be sarcastic - I know a LOT about production. 2 Legit to Quit? Samples. Every Dr. Dre song I've ever heard? Samples.

Now, I'm not being contradictory for the sake of it. It's very possible that there's someone playing the drumlines initially to those songs. But the drum and bass that you hear on each are 100% sampled, and overlayed into sections of the songs accordingly. The reason (in layman's terms) that you can tell (in a nutshell, basically, I can expand upon it more if you really need me to) is that if you listen to them, they are sonically 100% the same each time. Real instruments do not do that, regardless of how skilled the musician is. Bass is a piece of wood with metal wound strings. Drums are polymer resin stretched over a canister. No two bass notes will ever resonate the same. Neither will two hits of a bass drum, regardless of the musician behind them.

Big production studios, like the ones that produce both acts that you named, IF they are taking live tracks, will take those tracks, reproduce them electronically, and then THAT is what you hear on the album. Rock artists do it as well. Staind? Sampled. Godsmack? Samples. The new Korn album? Yep. Samples. It's a common studio technique, because with studio albums of big-label-caliber, there's no room for the earthy, artistic sounds that you get with a real drummer playing real drums in realtime on a track. It doesn't happen. And while musicians will appreciate it, anything mass-marketed (like rap) as opposed to non-major bands tailor their albums to the listening, cd-buying public. Jonny paintballer doesn't want to hear a difference in Tom sounds on the new Green Day album. He wants to hear his favorite song. That's what he gets.

That's the music industry. There are exceptions, of course. Offhand: Tool, Dave Matthews Band. Two artists whose careers thrive off of grassroots fans analyzing their music to the Nth degree. DMB needs to be earthy. Tool needs to be, well, if you've ever listened to them, Tool. They have the liberty of using 100% live (analog, mind you) recording techniques because the music that they put out BENEFITS from these qualities in the ears of the people who buy their CDs. The last Snoop Dogg album, the majority of the fans don't care about the saturation and resonance of the bassline. It's club music. DJ's need to mix it, play it, and the fans, quite plainly, just don't ++++ing care.

Are the beats their own? Sure. I'm drinking a glass of scotch right now on my right, and to my left is a pack of smokes. In the middle is my ashtray. I can give you 4/4 on them immediately, but that doesn't qualify it as "music", it's me tapping 4/4 on my vices.

If you want to hear someone that doesn't rap in 4/4, I can actually point one out. Listen to some Eminem. I can't name the song (because, as is obvious, it's not my thing) but I've heard plenty, and some of his stuff is in 7, some of it is in 6/8. And I'm sure that you'll agree that he's certainly a credible, mass-market rap artist.

4/4 isn't discipline man. It's just counting. So is odd meter. Bands like Yes, Rush, Dream Theater - they aren't just maiking signatures up. Playing in 7, 9, 6/8, 11 - that's the same as 4/4, it's just a LOT more difficult to write and arrange listenable melodies in that signature. 4/4 is just easy. Put on the radio right now, chances are it doesn't matter which station. At the first upbeat, start counting. 1.2.3.4.1.2.3.4. That's 4/4. It's easy. Rap is easy. They aren't rapping in 4/4 because it's "the rap discipline", they're rapping in 4/4 because 4/4 is as simple as counting to 4 instead of mixing it up and being creative and talented enough to write verse in something other than the time signature of 99.9% of mass-media, common music.

Listen to the beatles sometime. Check out Sergeant Pepper. I, admittedly, HATE the beatles. I don't like their songs at all, but mother of god, Ringo Starr and George Harrison were absolute theory monsters. Do I like the songs? Not at all. Do I respect them as musicians? You bet.


It's important to note that my day job is a Software engineer. I spent 4 years at Berklee because music means something to me. It's my art. It's how I express myself in situations where human nature might be contradictory. It's the single greatest, most passionate thing that I've ever been a part of.

Do I think it takes skill to scratch records? Yep. Are they even remotely in the same league as I am with a guitar in my hands? I'm sorry man, and if you look through my posts on this forum I consider myself a humble, balanced guy - but not even close.

If you want to learn to scratch records, you scratch records. I play instrumental guitar. In the supreme-nutshell-layman-lets-categorize-everything term, I'd probably be called a neo-classical shred guitarist. There are no "viking scales" or "classical modes" to learn. It's just guitar. I have to know the blues, jazz, metal, classical. I know it all. It's about incorporating blues and jazz scales and progressions into MY music, while at the same time not sounding like I'm a metal guy playing the blues. You can't scratch Miles Davis. I can play Freddie the Freeloader in post-modern progressive shred guitar, staying true to the roots of the song while playing it in a manner that expresses my contribution to the piece.

Is scratching easy? Absolutely not. Is it the same as what I do from a musical standpoint? Again, absolutely not.

I'm not down on you for liking Rap. If you liked kazoo music and that's you're thing, right on man. Music is subjective, and the bottom line is that if what you listen to inspires you, good for you. Keep it up and enjoy it. That's what makes music worth pursuing. The simplest bit of it can inspire millions. In this day and age, things like that are precious, rare, and should be cherished.

I myself simply endluge myself the slightest bit of pride when it comes to someone comparing something that's taken me 20 years to consider myself a novice at to something I could reasonably produce in a week given the time and the finances.

The Roots. The Roots don't sample (or didn't haven't kept up with their current going ons). They are a rap band, that uses real instruements.