Its a sad time when a respected member decides to leave, More so after all the hard work they have contributed, After all it is thier work that keeps a place like this as popular as it is!!

I know from experience what its like to be singled out, I was once more popular and respected than the staff on a certain forum and my life was made hell, they picked up on the slightest of mistake and i was banned for life, albeit your leaving of your own accord but it can be classed as constructive!

I have only been here since November so i dont really know the ins and outs of said issues, I have noticed a few members being abrupt in posts but i take this with a pinch of salt, this is just the way forums are.....

Peeps generally type how it sounds in there head, it may sound completely different to another member, it all depend on how you want to read into it. You will always get this on forums, more so 1 of this size...

Its a shame you cant work this out with the parties invovled and stick around, your hacks/addons are great and i have prob tried most if not all for my version of VB

I do hope that you reconsider, if not good luck in with what you venture in to next and take care!!!

Exactly!!! Its all going somewhere else :)

People come and go from communities - that is for certain. However when serious contributors are bullied out - there is a problem. Couple that with the fact that you're those bailing are the ones that give your customers a reason to come on to this site and you have a serious problem. Surely losing actual contributing customers from this site should spark more than a 'hoo hum. It's only another coder leaving'.

Most staff are apathetic. They just want their lives to be easier (after all, they volunteer their time here). Therefore they think its an improvement if more of the vocal users bailed (even if they are the ones contributing work for the site).

Eventually, Livewires farewell thread will be buried. He'll be gone, .org will continue to run the same tired ship in the same tired direction - ignoring those customers and contributors that scream to go someplace different. More coders will jump ship and soon you'll be left with an empty hold.

Instigating some change. Celebrating the talent that contributes around here.

Your user to producder ration just went further out of whack ;)

As usual, sir, you're blowing things way out of proportion and making predictions that are never going to happen. You talk about tiresome. ;)

Yes, this thread will get closed/moved and buried. The staff will say that this doesn't belong in this forum even when the forum clearly states to Please let us know what you think about us in here!.

Like The Geek said, Instigating some change and celebrating the talent that contributes around here will begin to move this forum back in the direct it used to be in. Untill that happens this will be an ongoing circle. Sooner or later vBulletin is going to release another major version and no one will be able to get great hacks with out paying for them.

Really ? - how long do you think the site would last if the "few users who do happen to code hacks" stopped and left ?

According to the modifications page there are ;

I would guess that less than 75% of them are still active (actually it's probably worse than that). You are right that no one coder should be considered more important, but in reality some do play a much more active role than others, and alienating them is not going to do you any good - and remember, as a group they are very important - no coders = no mods = no site - it's pretty much as simple as that. :)

Your'e absolutely correct.
In fact, I agree with a lot that has been said (from all parties).

NOTE: This "farewell thread" should go into the LOUNGE fourm -- not the SITE FEEDBACK forum. Hence, I moving the thread.

I was happy to leave this thread alone until I saw this
ok, that is 'technically' true, you can say that all members contribute to the site, but it wouldn't suprise me if to every 1 coder, if there where 100 non-coders... [someone correct me if you get accurate stats], so that would mean to every coder that left, you could say you're losing 100 members, because that would be the ratio... what would happen if all 450 odd coders left, you reckon the few thousand non-coders could keep this place together? what is vBulletin.org without hacks?

I seriously hope that the coders here do stay, and I am really sorry if you have made up your mind... You guyz are the lifeblood of this place, even if the moderators refuse to see that

how odd..that was also the reason i responded to this thread....lol

Sorry, this gave me a chuckle.

Carry on.

It's that kind of attitude made vB.org what it is now. I may be rather new to vB.org but I can sense a problem, and that just supports it.

Sorry, but that was lame. We're all admins here, and we're not stupid.

I could have sworn this was a discussion about the site - however I guess it looks better being in the lounge - plus it will get buried faster!

I should have known that celebrating coders here was a prediction that would never happen. Now I've got confirmation from one of the ol boys club that its so :)

Oddly, Im not really seeing many site users disagreeing with sentiments expressed here - well, other than the staff of course ;)

Geez, can't you guys just admint that things could be a little cooler for those that contribute to the community and agree that you'll look into any opportunity to improve the situation if possible? Stop being so 'ol boys club'ish and see if you guys can be a force of positive change instead of working so hard to say that there is nothing that needs to be changed :D

BTW: according to Pauls figures up there, less than 4% of the members of this site have ever released anything. ;)

Titles mean nothing, there are people on this site who have released incrediblily well thought out and developed mods, and they will only ever releaase one, a title is nothing more than a shiney badge. Somehow I'm an advanced coder here Dunno how that happenend.

So trying to concenctrate on the other 99% of the community instead of the one or two users who are leaving?

Ah, see, I think the coders who do actively work and release stuff do deserve celbration, but its not going to happen when they are trying to make a sence.

I'm here and was here and at vBT as a coder, and user before I was staff. I have the utmost respect for the coders. The people who actively contribute to this site and want nothing more back than the praise of the people they work for. I see coders as people who develop hacks for their own needs, not for praise.


On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place. This has never changed, you leave today, tomorrow a new coder will start and get reoniczed etc. I'm sorry that you feel you need to leave the community, but thats your choice, your mind is made up and theres nothing that can stop you.

Because you made and released hacks that were liked? The badge is earned, therefor it means something. If a lot of badges were to get up and leave it would suddenly become a very nice badge to have indeed. A title is a tribute to what you have accomplished, don't say its nothing.

No, just don't ignore or beat down the ones that are leaving.

Not quite sure what you are saying there. I am just assuming that that last word is supposed to be 'scene'.
People stand up for what they want, they will say it and just leave if it doesn't happen. Explaining why is basically showing respect to people by not just disappearing, and allowing for some discussion to come up to resolve the issue.

Some people make em for praise, most for their own needs (which is not quite true, they started for their own needs but proper documentation + support is not for yourself, but for others) or completely for someone else's need. The coders here aren't selfish, if they were, well, they wouldn't be here.

If enough people get up and leave it won't go back to what it was. It'll leave a scar, simple as that. The new coders won't show up for quite a while since they will see what happened or hear about and procedingly (if the reasons are good enough) steer clear.


I have seen attitudes like yours wreck things before, and not just sites.

This upsets me. I've worked for companies most of my life who treated me this way. A piece of meat. Replaceable. I left that grind because of that attitude. I didn't expect to find it here too.

Zachery, you will need to learn how to respect users. We do this for free, and you need to learn to respect us. We are telling you what needs to be changed, but instead, you keep thinking "new ones will replace these", what if they don't? But they might, and they will probably have the same fate (if it comes down to it) with the majority of them leaving. We are trying to send you a message here, things need to change whether you like or not. The way things are now, are not working out. We are telling you how it is, and not demanding things. We all don't get paid for doing these types of things, like you do. And you being the one with the salary, need to learn how to treat others equally and with respect. Just because you wear a vB.com badge does not make you any better then us, honestly I could careless. You are just another individual to me, and probably most everyone here thinks of you the same way.

There are definitely problems with vBorg, which is why I try to stay away as much as possible. I come here to browse and the tension is almost palpable. I can hardly stand to browse, let alone post work that I've done. Then coming to read this thread to hear Zack saying the coders of this forum (which are also customers) are nothing but expendable. I just adore how the staffers love us so!

If we leave, new coders may come. But the problems will always remain unless something is done.

Yes, things do need to change. But not in the way most of you are thinking. Remember, I devoted tons of my own personal time to vBT before I was staff, do you know how many professional companys out there started using my code for vB3 instead of writing their own? There are tons of pre-made styles, and even custom ones that use my tutoirals written at vBulletinTemplates and vBulletin.org.

I respect every coder who wants to be here to help the community. There are tons of people here who have gone way above and beyond the call and done more than they need to.

You are absolutly right, good, I want you to not give me any more special treatment than you would anyone else. And I never expect special treatment from anyone, nor did I ask for it. Good, as it should be, Lets keep it that way then.

I work my ass off on my hacks here and I'm not paid for it, my vB.org time is not reembursed with money, but with the users I educate. If I can walk away educating a few users every day on how to code, even if its as simple as html I've done my job.
I have a problem with the coders who are here for their own personal agendas and reasons.

As you (should) well know - on this site coder/adv/master/designer basically means you have contributed work (since one hack + 10 installs qualifies you as a coder, something similar for template mods) I would think that 99% of people who have released work here have one of these titles - and yet you just dismiss them out of hand as 'nothing'. You can have 200,000 users, but with no coders/designers there is nothing for them.

I think this comment is a bit ridiculous. It is obvious to most of the people who have been here for a while that there is a problem, yet the moderators of this site say that the problem should be resolved by the members?

I think the mods could do a much better version of making peace on this board and it shouldn't fall on the members. If my site wasn't doing well, I would sit down all the moderators and put together a list of ideas on how to make it better. You shouldn't expect your members to carry a "broken" site forever, eventually they will find a place that meets their needs better and move on. It seems like a lot of them have already.

I don't see how this works. On my boards, if someone that no one knows leaves, nothing happens, but if a long time contributing member disappears or posts a goodbye message, I make sure that one of the mods (normally myself) sit down with the person individually to determine if there was something that upset them or something the site could have done to keep their interest.

The people that are joining now are not going to get good at developing hacks for a while (mainly due to the product/plugin system). If a good person and good coder was leaving, I wouldn't dismiss it as easily as you have.

Once again, as usual, you twist a statement to suit your needs. You never seem to disappoint me in the predictability department. ;)

I would like to take the moment to set the record straight for any of you I might have offended. I have the utmost respect for every person on this site who has taken the time to help someone, write a line of code, or done a good deed just by pointing someone in the right direction. The fact of the matter is every year coders come and go. No one really notices most of the time. I'm really sad to see anyone leaving this site for whatever reasons. I personally don't think that Ken (Livewire) went about this in the best way. I know he will be missed by quiet a few people here. I've personally never got to know him so I've got nothing to say about him one way or another. But I don't remember such a huge outburst when others left the community, or possibly faded away.

Lots of the current problems as everyone sees here now are due to a lack of community participation. Not everyone who is getting something is attempting to give something back.

Now I need to be off to my girlfriends graduation.

Thats a little hypocritical isn't it? ;)

You never fail to disappoint me in the 'where can I find a good curmudgeon?' department?

This site isn't run or directed by the community. Its directed by an ol boys club that:
1- Disregards ideas outside their own circle
2- Resists change not instigated by the inside circle
3- Dismisses contributers to the site (customers)

You should be embarrassed to imply that the people who actually release work on here for your customers are easily replaced.

They are the community. Not you. ;)

I can't say any one word of that is true.

Only is the hypocrisy is true, as in this case. ;)

You've resorted to name calling and using age as a weapon. Predictability and immaturity both win this time. ;)

I'm trying to understand this, but I really can't.

People are stating that vBulletin.org is going in a bad direction...so they leave the forums and abandon all their hacks. This all seems a little hypocritical to me. You state you want a change for the better on vbulletin.org, but you leave which is only causing more trouble, uproar, and negative outbursts.

I just saw another thread in the Lounge Forums stating that coders should "walk out", until things are changed. In my opinion, this is not the way to get things to change.

The staff listens to every single suggestion that is posted in the Feedback forum. And a lot of these suggestions are in the process of being implemented. But to think that every single suggestion here could be implemented (and implemented quickly) is nonsensical.

As for the coders, I respect every single coder on this forum. I know the dedication and talent all of you posses and I would hate to see any of you leave as you're all a significant part of the community.

In my opinion the decline of vbulletin.org is on everyone’s part. It’s just one big cycle that has caused the community to lose the values it once had; where every member respected one another.

Regular members make negative demands/comments on hacks -> Coders get frustrated and lose respect for regular members and decide not to help people -> everyone is now aggravated and create threads like these.

Next time you see a thread asking for help? Help them! Next time you install hack? Thank the author for their hard work!

This alone will begin to improve the community.

And I just want to restate this fact, despite being repetitious because it’s important; the staff takes every single suggestion into consideration. If the suggestion is a good idea, and it’s possible we suggest plans of implementation and then we begin the actual process of getting it implemented. This process may take a long time, but it does happen.

Personally, I’ve tried my very best to be kind, courteous, and friendly to every single member on vbulletin.org. I know there have been times when I’ve made unjust outbursts to members, but I’ve apologized to them afterwards every single time. If you feel you’ve been treated unfairly, just confront the staff member or one of the Administrators in a private message and it will be worked out.

And finally, I apologize for this very long post. :D

Whee, what a big thread - and not unique in its' kind.

** Edit out, MarcoH64 **

I will say this as a staff member: I am not too happy to see how things are going and will point this thread out to a few other Jelsoft staff members and the cross site manager. Just a FYI.

I hate to say this, but this is nothing new...

I stopped coding 20 years ago because I was also burned out from constant demand and no positive feedback. (This is back in the BBS/freenet/ freeware/shareware era.)

The reality is that users will be just that - USErs...

Programmers will come and go. Some will become commercial like you hope to, some will fade into oblivion (like me).

If you code to get some appreciation back then you will be, and as it seems, sorely disappointed, as many have before you.

You have to learn to code for the pure pleasure of coding.

I couldn't.

I do still apreciate a finely written code - and give cudos where it is due - but is it enough? Is it ever enough?

Why was this thread moved?

The Lounge - Sit back in your lazy-boy recliner and chat away. This forum intends to host any kind of chat except vbulletin and hacking issues!

Site Feedback
Please let us know what you think about us in here!

This is bullshit. You move the thread here so it doesn't get the attention is deserves. I'm asking that this thread get moved to the proper place, please.


[edit]----------------------------[/edit]

Thanks, the one thing vBulletin.org does gives us means nothing. Well let me tell you something. When I first joined here, the title meant alot to me. Not because of some line of text, because it meant that I took my time out to create work for a community and I would be rewarded with a title. It's the only thing that seperates the users and coders. Nothing agaist the users who don't code, if it wasn't for them. I wouldn't have ever made the master title. To simply throw out the only thing you give coders is a disgrace. I wear my title proudly, and I think I deserve to also. As any other coder does to.

Don't you see.. THATS THE PROBLEM!!!!! you can't look at this community in that aspect. Maybe if things changes around here, you wouldn't have to worry about coders leaving and new coders coming in. You would simply get old coders staying and new coders coming and older and newer coders working together. Which means what? MORE CODERS vs Users.

and just for the record. EVERY hack listed on my profile was not coded for me. I don't use ANY of my hacks listed in my profile. There simply there for others.

I'm relatively new here and doing my best to learn, show my appreciation, and become a contributor. I've read, read, and read some more... answer as many questions that I can, and I've recently released my first hack.

I will say that I have noticed the behavior/attitude that The Geek has referenced above.

There's a palpable sense of one-upmanship and "powertrippiness" going on here, and I often see it coming from the mods. If a new idea to improve the forum (in terms of function, utility or design) is floated by a coder or a member, it's shot down immediately, which puts the suggesting party on the defensive. Then others have to come forth and "lobby" for the idea, and then the mods (sometimes) open their eyes and actually read/think about the request before discussing it rationally. I can think of a few threads as an example of this, but I'll leave those out for now, so we can focus on "the bigger picture."

I suppose this sort of clash is inevitable when you gather a bunch of alpha-geeks, who all enjoy the power associated with running their own forums. I do think the forum as a whole would benefit if everyone took a deep breath and got over themselves for a bit.

Hambil's suggesting a "Codeout" here. I think the lines of dialog need to open up; the folks feeling disaffected should gather their thoughts to determine what specifically it is they want, and what they expect. And they need to be realistic.

Hoping for "attitudes to change" won't do anything. Concrete requests should be made so concrete changes can happen.

Just my $0.02.

Translation. You have a problem woth the coders who's agenda's don't line up with your agenda. Everyone has an agenda, everyone.

This is the kind of disrespect toward the coders that will eventually implode a site like this, and eventually vB itself. The coders here are not "just part" of the community, they're key framework that a community like this is built upon. Do you think your house would be standing for very long if you removed its framework? Likewise, if you're going to be so cavalier about an important issue such as this, then all of us paying customers will just make some popcorn and watch this site, and ultimately vB's sales, sink like the Titanic. It seems to me that the decision makers of the Titanic once thought that they were unstoppable to.


Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Why do you think that people come here in the first place? Here's a clue; remove all of the hacks that are here, prevent any new ones from being posted, and you'll soon learn what most of us vB customers already know.


I agree, one single coder does not make or break this site. However when it's one coder after another, after another, then like Chinese water torture all of the good coders will have left and gone somewhere else. Now all of a sudden it's a totally different issue. Sounds to me like you think this is a power struggle. It isn't. The coders are doing this in part because they are not given the respect that they are rightfully due. A good leader would seize a situation like this and use it as an opportunity to make this site better, not pour more salt on its wounds. I agree with you that there are a few coders that have used this site as a stepping stone for their own benefit, but we are not talking about those coders. Certainly LiveWire is not one of those coders. He has bent over backwards here and at other sites to help vB customers when his only benifit is knowing that someone who needed help received it. As a customer he has helped me when vB staff has not. It's disturbingly sad that you can't realize what an asset he is here. No doubt he will certainly be missed by the vB customers here.


Well there's an obvious statement :rolleyes: I'll even go one better. If people stop having a reason to come here it will adversely effect vB as a company. Here's an example for you. I was about to buy another copy of Vb next month. However, because of all of the cavalier comments like the one that you made above toward the coders here, I will not. That money will now stay in my pocket until I, as a paying customer, can be reassured that the product that I'm paying for is going to be supported by the "coding community". Like most customers I do not have the ability to code very well, which is why I appreciate it so much when others who can code, donate their time and their hacks to a site like this. I didn't buy vB just for its default features, I bought it because of its expandability, but when you think about it all forum software is expandable, and upon closer inspection it's really the caliber of the coding community here that make the big difference. Simply put; No good hacks - no reason for people to buy this software over Invision (or any other brand) that IS supported by a solid coding community. I think most resonable people would agree that if it wasn't for a site like this, that vB wouldn't be so appealing, and you can paint it any way that you want, but the bottom line is that this site is only as good as its coders. It appears to some of us as customers that the higher-ups at vB can't make that fundamental connection. I can't begin to tell you how surprised (and disappointed) I am to learn that fact. One way or another this site will ultimately be shaped through decisions that ultimately shape its environment. I think an open thread like this one is very important. Constructive criticism may not be easy to read, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things, and as we all know when something unhealthy is ignored, its potential to die increases. If all the good coders leave this site then you don't have to be a psychic to know where that will lead. I love vB, I really do, and I hope that they take one step back and realize just how important having good coders here is.

Sorry to see any person that contributes as much as you do leave the community.
The points you raise are valid and have been for a while now. There are staff members that are genuine and I beleive do have community interest in mind. There are others that have God complexes and show it every time they post.
It is sad that the attitude of a few are driving away the backbone of this site. I hope that once Floris brings this to the attention of Wayne that wholesale changes are made. As someone else said in this thread, if the coders leave the site will die.

The only thing predictable round these parts is the lack of change and the fact that as soon as I post - you pop in your two bits in any attempt you can to 'discredit me'. Boofo is the anti geek! :D

If all suggestions are taken on board, what about the commercial hack directory or the hack database? There has been little more than peeps on these points.

Anyhooo, reserve the next post for Boofo. He'll be killing himself to respond.

Sorry Geek, I butted in :p

Anyways, Bubble #5. I really appriacte the support. It means alot to me to know that my work here is appreciated from everyone here.

I didn't create this thread to stir things up, or tick the staff off. I had to state that obvious things going on around here. I had to tell .org what I think about the site. [cough]Thats why this was in the feedback forum[/cough]. If you want to try and start to changes things. There here are a few suggestions from me.

• I personally would organize the forums alittle diffrently. It seems very cluttered at the moment, at least to me it does. (thats just something small)
• Create a forum structure for coders. Allow our involment in what gets implamented and what shouldn't. Not saying we should have the final say, but at least allow use to have an area where staff and coders can chat about the future things that can be implamented.
  
  Then when 1 idea gets implamented. Instead adding it to a todo list for one of the staff members to handle, we should have a forum that coders can access to help create and code the project. Kinda like a vBulletin.org develoment team.
  
• stop keeping everything such a secret to the community. God forbid if someone knows the values for certain titles. Everyone knows now since it has been changed.
• create a release forum that would host big projects coded by many coders here on vb.org
• setup a donation hack that allows users to donate to authors if they want to. When a user donates any ammount, allow that user to have a icon in that hack that showing that they have contribuate to the coder via donation

These are just a few examples I had in mind. There are others, but my post is getting long enough for me, and frankly I rather not waste my time trying anymore. You say that coders leaving will only make the situation worst. Your absolutely 100% correct. Though, after dealing with it for so long, you simply give up trying.

I tried to be helpful here https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....4&postcount=10 but my post was ignored. The original thread was posted over a month ago and has yet to be fixed. I posted the code to correct this issue but nothings been done. If we had something like the above mentioned features, things like that wouldn't happen as often, and coders wouldn't be leaving the site or starting a petition.

Disclaimer: I don't speak for all the coders. I speak for me, but I take liberties of assuming that to a certain extent, some of my fellow coders agree with me.
Also, when I use the term coder, in all cases where designers feel affected by what I say (for better or worse), I mean both coder and designer. I just cba to write "coders and designers" 572 times. Sue me.

This post has a level of ignorance I hardly thought possible.
Not to mention the fact that I find it offensive.
I don't want to appear as having a "holier than thou" attitude but it is a fact that it's the coders that make this site. As others have stated, what would vBulletin.org be without the coders? Check out the 3.5 Modification Requests forum. 25% of the threads on the first page (at the time of writing this) has no replies. 50% of the remaning threads have 1-5 replies saying "I second this request". Exactly 3 threads have more than 5 posts which would indicate either a whole lot of "seconded" or maybe actually some serious discussion.
My point? The fact that none of these threads gets any involvement from the coders because they don't feel like it's worth their time. I count myself in that group. Every coder that reads a request and lets it fly Ill wager thinks something like "meh, this isn't worth my time".
Why do coders think like this? Because of the attitude depicted above. Coders are replaceable. Guess what, we don't come in an infinite supply. Surely you all must have noticed that the coder count dwindles and the number of "help me plix" increases.
What makes a newbie into a coder? Willpower and motivation. The newbie is responsible for the willpower, vbulletin.org (I mean everybody. Staff, coders and other members) is responsible for the motivation. vBulletin.org, at this point, is unable to provide the motivation.

I refuse to believe the willpower of the members has changed simply due to the fact that the plugin system appeared. If people want to learn how to code, then they will learn how to code if they are supplied with motivation.
What I feel that vBulletin.org is doing wrong, is not offer any form of incentive for coders to help supply motivation. There are a few points which could help amend this:

1. Make the coders feel wanted and needed.
   It may sound stupid and make the coders sound selfish, but guess what, we aren't all commies. Recieving more positive feedback from users that installed our hacks goes a long way since we are all doing it for free.

Now I am not saying the staff alone is responsible for the abovementioned. But as I stated, all of vBorg need to help with supplying motivation, and I believe that what of the above members could do, they should do.
Now I know what some of you equalists are thinking. "z0mg, coders aren't worth more than Bob or Jane" (no offense to Boobiefool or his 16 year old girlfriend), but guess what, on this site, coders are the only ones who contribute to this site in any worthwhile amount. This is not a bloody Sports site where you argue whos going to win the Super Bowl, people! This is a place where coders can share their work and rest easier knowing that all them Jack Sparrows of the world (Pirates) don't get their dirty hands on their work as easily as they would if this was an FTP directory. Give me one good reason why vBorg shouldn't cater more to the coders (yes, this means the hack db, commercial scripts, and more than just a cozy little private forum).

To return to the first statement in the quoted post from Zachery:
Allow me to match this segment up against another statement made:
I believe it's time for the coders to take back vBorg. We are the backbone of this board. Yeah, I do believe we should have a greater influence on how this board works, mainly because we are directly generating income for Jelsoft. It's been said over and over again, many people buy vB because of the amount of great hacks that can do whatever they would want their bbs do beyond threads and sigs.
If coders were put in a different usergroup, with a colored username, I believe this would be a bigger incentive. It would be more than just 9pt text that changed. It would be something more significant. It would mean you are a contributor to this community. Tell me, my fellow coders: How many of you look upon your "x Coder" title and feel that you are being recognised as a valuable contributor to this site? I sure as hell don't, not anymore.
Also I believe that such a change would offer at least part of the motivation the users would need to become coders. You would feel like you were noticed. So I don't see how this is bad for the community.

vBorg need to stop thinking so much about the vast majority of people that only come here to get support for their hacks and post questions. Take the commercial hacks thread. 90% of the posts from normal members were as ignorant as Zacherys post or close to it, or just sheer dumb. That skewed the results. What the members think is not always what is going to incent the coders to stay here. I can sit here and claim their opinion hold little value to me (beyond royally pissing me off) because they don't contribute. Most of them come here to leech. Who cares if they dont agree with coders wanting to get a little money for their countless hours of work? If you want to talk replaceable, you should look at the members. I don't actually remember the username of a single regular member, but I know the names of a fair few coders.

vBorg is no longer a community of coders. It is a place where those that don't have the energy to commit to the commercial world or don't want to lose the anti-piracy security come and release their mods. That is what has been degrading this site. This decline will continue. Coders will not be infinitely replaced.
I don't like where this is going, do you?

Well said. ;)

[high]* Boofo checks Jane's birth certificate and wonders why she said she was older.[/high]

Thats my friend, is exacly the statment I was looking for. Let me quote this beatiful quote just once more. I wouldn't want anyone to miss it.

Very well put Revan, I couldn't agree more.

Back when I begun I was very much an amateur to coding. The main reason that I didn't stop at one hack was because I got help and support from a few coders who had been around the block and remained positive. Xenon, Lesane, Boofoo were major help and encouragement. After reading some of the PMs I sent. The poor grammar in it, the fact that I was 14/15 years old... they still were patient helping me greatly with a few hacks.

That however, is a long time ago.

I wouldnt mind seeing those in actions into effect :)