I am not in favor of adding commercial 3rd party software to this site, be it as directory or otherwise. Granted, I am new at vb.org, but for the sake of the community spirit that seems to have been developed and cultivated here over the years I hope that there will be no commercial hacks on this site.

Developers of commercial hacks are free to post free-of-charge lite versions of their products here. I doubt there is any better "free" advertising for them than to post a lite version. If their product is good, the community will surely support their development by purchasing the full commercial version as needed.

I can see the need for a central directory for vB hacks. My suggestion would be to take it offsite using a new domain name.

I understand that there are members who want commercial products on here, but I can also imagine that many valuable members will be driven away from vB.org by a decision to commercialize this forum (even if it is "just" a directory).

I think this is a great idea. No one comes here because of some "community spirit", they come here to get and discuss vBulletin addons. How can vb.org be the definitive site for vBulletin modifications if it completely ignores commercial hacks?

Although I like the idea, I'm a little wary of the fees. As far as I'm concerned, a portion of the $320 of mine that Jelsoft already has should be enough of a contribution from me to support this site. There absolutely needs to be some sort of rating system, too. Maybe force users to write a review instead of just choosing a rating and have the reviews be moderated, if necessary.

As a side note, why would anyone think a lawyer's opinion is needed here? Here's the disclaimer for you, free of charge: "Clicking a link in this section will lead to a website not affiliated with Jelsoft or vBulletin. Jelsoft is not responsible for any content that may be there."

EDIT: How did this thread get 1 install? :ninja:

A complete directory of paid hacks is sorely needed, as some of the best stuff for VB is unkown to many people here. Please don't only list hacks that pay you, list them all.

• Reviews. I need to know if what I'm buying is going to do what it says it does, or if it will turn into vBauction.
• Forum. Lets say there are two $100 CMPS hacks that are both rated 5 stars. I'd like to be able to discuss which one is best for my site with other vb.org users.
• VB version. I want to see what version is supported.
• Don't charge coders to be on the list! I like your free ideas but they are limiting. We need a complete directory - including those that don't generate enough profit to advertise. It will benefit the community much more if we had a full list. If you need to charge them, make them pay to be higher on the list, or to have a bold name, or to have a big description, but don't leave someone out because they can't afford to be on your list. Even if it's just a tiny link at the bottom of the barrel that looks like this, leave them on.
  
  There is such thing as difficult, complex hacks that nobody would code for free, and that will only appeal to 2 or 3 users - they can't afford advertisements with 2 or 3 customers, so please don't leave them off the list.
  
  
• Charge a monthly fee to be at the top of the list, or to have a bold name, a picture, or something else. This will make up for the ones who get on free.

I think this is a good idea all round but as many have said there will be problems with it.

problems i see is small hack coders like myself will not be able to pay to put a link up on here,
Why the reason being im a single dad and i dont get much in the way of money.

Someone said why not keep the hacks free and let people donate to them, well let me say people will not donate to hacks as they want every thing for free and they dont care how much work has been put into a hack.

Yes we all want things for free but if you like some thing someone has made help them out and send some money, But no one does. This is why some coders have started to charge for there hacks as they are not getting any thing from anyone.

Coders will still make free hacks and call them hackname lite or some thing like that.
In there Signature they would be able to put a link to where to buy the pro version of there hack.
Maybe instead of making a forum or some thing up to list all commercial hacks that some coders have for sale,
Why not make a new members list up with all the coders and in that list it shows there website where to get there hacks from.
This way there is no extra cost to vb.org or any coder.

Or why not just let coders put a link in there signatures only 1 per coder this would save all the problems.

I don't agree with allowing Commercial hacks to find their way into vb.org. I believe in the short-term everything would be reasonable. We would see a handful of commercial mods and for the most part we would all still continue to enjoy the free mods we have today. I think a large part of the good mods are already released and more than likely what you see now, probably wont convert to commercial. I think what will happen is when VB releases the next version 4.0 and all the mods have to be rebuilt. The Long-term effect I believe is we will see a huge boom in commercial mods and find many of our favorites that have been ported from v2 to 3 to 3.5 or even many of the newest and latest mods in 3.5 no longer free. A lot of them will see $$ in their eyes and think, hey why not port it and make a few bucks. The free mods will decrease and all the high quality mods will cost money.

Guess what will happen if most of the mods disappear? You will see alot not renewing and moving over to the next biggest board in line that has the most free mods and VB will lose in the end. Sure you will still retain alot of members who don’t mod, those that buy, install and go. They won’t be affected, but are you willing to give up a chunk of your valued and very loyal members in exchange if this turns out as I predicted? Do you like to gamble?

--------------------------------------

Now, let’s assume no matter what I say, you go ahead with the support. In that case which I do not support, I would make some suggestions.

I think a commercial directory should be on its own domain selected by the vb.org team, something like vbservices.net or com if you wish. Keep it separated and the negative effects might not be as bad. I also agree that they should only be viewable by licensed members.

Now there is the argument that if you have commercial, then it should be open for newcomers to see. I agree and disagree. The solution would be to allow the viewing of the directory by anonymous visitors with some things hidden. Hide the mods home URL support link, hide the author name, hide any download links, and hide anything that remotely connects that user to the mod or website to obtain the mod without being licensed. This does two things. It allows those shopping for a board, looking at what’s offered with VB and the mod community. They get to view what the mod does in a summary. However, you not allowing the viewing of any contact info, author info or anything to keep out people running illegal version of the board searching for mods. I say the author name because they could just Google it and it would take them to anyone’s site that has the credits and connect the dots. I believe anyone that is so set on lettings anonymous users’ view this directory isn’t thinking about the illegal versions, the people who don’t pay, that use bit-torrent to get the latest board. They will benefit by a commercial site openly published. I stand behind the team here in their statement of making it member viewable only that would be the best security of all.

I also think charging them to publish on the directory is a good idea. It helps keep the directory from filling up with every single hack you could imagine just because people want to make some money. You’re not going to get support on vb.org forums for commercially listed mods, so use at your own risk. At least at VB if it goes wrong, the author can help, and even if they don’t, usually other members and staff give you a helping hand.

In the end, stay out of commercial, or at the bare minimum, let them list, but don’t

Adding a monetary aspect to this site would ruin its origins and flavor...capitalism is the true killer of open source and the wonderfulness of the community we have here at vBulletin.org.

One of the main reasons I chose vBulletin over any of the competition was the fact that it had one of the most supportive and helpful hacking communities. By installing many free hacks and experiencing my own stumbles along the way, I've learned a lot about php, all due to this community.

As soon as a paid hacks section is added, people will release hacks for the wrong reasons. Hack-making is NOT that profitable of an enterprise (as many have first gone commercial, then end up releasing their hack free at vB.org), and I think we at vBulletin.org should keep it this way, promoting open source and doing things for the good of everyone. If vBulletin.org fosters/supports the idea that hack making could be profitable, if vBulletin.org allows a large member base to see these paid hacks and increase the sales of them, and if vBulletin.org makes no real reason for its members to release hacks for free, we will end up with only a selection of free hacks that are small modifications, and large hacks (vBadvanced, v3arcade) as commercial only.

Is this good for everyone, or only for those few who make these hacks?

And I feel like everyone's forgetting the big picture. These hacks benefit Jelsoft the most, because many of the major vbulletin updates contain features inspired from hacks. So let me get this straight... I have an innovative idea for my forum, pay a programmer some ridiculous amount of money to get an exclusive, fancy hack, and then vBulletin later adds this feature to their software for everyone else for free? That's counter-productive for the webmasters paying for hacks, only benefiting the coders and Jelsoft. Why can't we just keep the current system, but employ a stronger donation system. We keep things open source and communal, and the coders get some financial compensation for their efforts, and Jelsoft gets a stronger product. Win/win for everyone.

Here are some of my ramblings.

Originally I wondered why VB.org didn't list all the commercial hacks available. It would be nice to see them all in one place. I don't like having to scour the net to find them. HOWEVER, as I have come to use and love VB.org, I can say that I think it would detract from the quality and quantity of free mods for vbulletin. I own 3 licenses (soon to be 5) and I must say that if it wasn't for free mods here, I might be using some other product (free or commercial).

If there are to be commercial listings (which I think is very likely): I would say that the charge for inclusion should be on the high side. This would hopefully prevent the tiny mods/hacks from trying to go commercial. Also, you would be providing them with quite a good source of advertising and it shouldn't come cheap. The ones who are currently making good money in the addon business can surely afford it. That is the main purpose of this discussion - to include the commercial mods.. I don't think it should be to encourage existing free mods to go commercial.

My biggest worry is that developers of existing mods will change over to commercial once a new version of VB comes out and leave their existing users with the option of removing their mod or paying a fee to continue using it. Although I personally have funds to support this, I would be very upset if I saw this happen to a lot of mods. I've already seen it happen so some here. There should be some mechanism to prevent this from happening (or at least put some restrictions on it). Also, there needs to be a mechanism to prevent users from taking a buggy mod and charging for the then fixed mod (as I've also seen attempted).

Finally, I think it is ESSENTIAL that some part of the site be devoted to discussion of commercial mods. It doesn't have to be within the directory itself, but I think it's important that we be able to rate and comment on commercial mods just as we can the free ones. There should be no "free ride" for the commercial mods vs the free ones.

-vissa

I'm happy for vBorg to show commercial hacks as long as they are shown in a different forum to all the awsome free ones :D.

Bad Idea! People want everything for free!And they will usually find it.So whats to stop another site popping up with the same hacks for free, who's going to check for copyright, whats to stop unscrupulous coders selling other peoples code!
Wait a minute if i could learn coding!!!!!!
Yes its a great idea im all for it...
Im off to learn to code and will release some really bad hacks very soon.

I think it's a bad Id because a lot of free hacks will get paid hacks as soon as this comes here.
It will kinda ruin the free sections, I guess.

However it's nice if we should have a place where all paid hacks are together and you don't have to search for hacks.

I support the idea of making vbulletin.org primarily a website for discussion of free plugins while opening up for paid sponsorship (ie, the directory). Making money off vBulletin hacks isn't an Evil Thing and it is good to see that it can be treated seriously.

I applaud this proposal and am in favor of it.

I'm all for a commercial directory. I don't wish to get into some philosophical pissing match with some here, so I'm just posting my support for the idea.

I think that allowing people that have the skill to produce something that people want to buy the ability to market it here is a good idea. I also agree that it shouldn't be allowed to rule the site, because this is an excellent resource for people like me who know enough to change, but not make it ourselves...even if we try :p

My only suggestion is that maybe those who wish to market their hacks, be required to create 1 free hack for every 5 or so paid ones they make? In order to keep the site true to its original intentions :) and keep us one big happy family :D

I speak as a user of the site, rather than a contributor. Most of the changes I have made are very specific to our site, but I have used quite a few hacks from here.

I think while a good idea generally, and perhaps helpful to people with bigger hacks, however I believe it will have a negative effect on this community and as many people pointed it out may cause its ultimate demise.

Well Ill keep this short
The up side I think there would be alote of great advance hacks
The down side we might have to pay for some of the simple hacks as well.

Now dont get me wrong. I think its great of all the coders that have done free hacks.
If hacks are only costing like $5 then I would have no problem paying for them but when they start geting around $25 up I probly wouldent want to pay that much and Im sure smaller non profite sites would agree as well.

I highly don't agree with the directory being fee based as that would defeat the purpose of the topic being brought up. I have disagreed with this from the beginning but things have changed my mind and now I agree with it, but not the fee based part. It should be kept free as the rest of the site is free to use, why charge those of us who have released hacks and style for free a fee to post up our links in a directory where someone can buy a style that we made to sale?

Either way if it goes, it goes, if it doesn't then it doesn't, but I just want to state that charging a fee to have your link in there is ridiculous, its beyond that really. Now if the fee was say a few dollars a month then that would be fine but I have this odd feeling that its gonna cost $10+ to have your link in the directory.

My 2 cents
Myth

I thought the same thing as Paul when I read this. Sorry, I've nothing against good coders making a buck for there work. But the whole way this as been designed and thought out to make cash for vb and the staff, while at the same time done quite clever to shun all liability in doing so. Doesn't sit well with me. It just sounds as though you want to make money of the backs of others and carry no responsiblity at the same time.

Sorry, but that my view.

My first reaction is, I like it, I have always known there is a world of paid for hacks and styles out there, but have never been able to find them. On the other hand, by making it easier for people to find paid hacks, it will encourage more to go that route....

I still say go for it.

its a bad idea for sure. you give the hackers there own section where they make profit there is no way there gonna conti9nue to work on free hacks. why would u chooce to do something free when the time you spent on a hack can now be offered here and people will be forced to buy it if they want it. so look for this site to slowly die and users start switching to other forum software where they can get free hacks and a free community.

I do understand big hacks like galleries Download databases Role playing games. Journal systems having a charge but i cant see paying for little hacks like colored user names or welcome panels :(

I also think that it's a bad idea in the medium/long term. For now, most of the great hacks are here and are free. Soon, though, there will be a migration towards paid hacks. I believe that's inevitable, especially with the "support" of vB.org (even if just with links). Every good coder out there will see the opportunity to earn a little extra bucks. And I also think that in the long term this will hurt vB.com.

Coders who have paid-for hacks already "advertise" that in their sigs or in their posts so I don't see how difficult it could be for someone looking for them to find them.

Thanks anyway for listening. :)

I tend to agree with Joeycho on this.

Although the directory is a great idea, the fee will shun away the "little guys". On the other side of the coin, I think that is someone is going to benefit monetarily by having their products advertised on a site such as this, then they SHOULD pay some sort of fee.

So I guess what I am trying to say is:

The Directory is a great idea, but the fee structure should be carefully thought out so as to be inclusive.

Maybe a fee determined by the cost of the product...hmmmm....

NB: May I please remind you of the rules of this thread, in particular:

You may not address other community members at this time. Keep it on topic and directed to the proposal.

I've edited out the references to other posts, but please, try and stick to the rules of the thread :)

Chris

I think this will encourage more commercial mods, costing us more. =/

Personally I will not release anything if this goes thru. Why would I work for a site to profit and for those who wish to charge to profit?

If this goes thru the guy who is nice and shares is doing nothing more then helping put money into others pockets. There is no reason for anyone to give anything free in a commercial community.

And that is what this proposal would make vb.org , a commercial community. The staff taking in on profit, and so on? I could see if you used the money and gave it all away to members to promote free scripts, but to give to staff seems to be more a business move.

I think it's a bad idea on a several fronts; barring the fact that coders/hack developers are free to earn adequate profits for their original works. However, if a coder/hack developer were allowed space to "advertise" their works, I believe there would be an integrity and content compromise that would untimately erode the culture and reason why users of the Jelsoft Software come to vbulletin.org in the first place...to exchange ideas and software enhancements.

Here's an example, one section of the site (vbulletin.org) would allow the coders/hack developers to commercially advertise on one section of the site and in another section permit them to offer their "free" works. I believe that a major conflict of interest would prevail ultimately damaging the good intentions of both scenarios; commercial and free. As with all good intensions, I foresee the potential for more focus on how to use the freeware aspect to enhance the sales aspect.

Now, there is another matter of "hacks" being developed for free use that are not being adequately supported as stated...now, many vbulletin.org users have posted their distaste for developers not supporting their works;this is already occuring and that issue has not been rectified. I respectfully ask..."why would the owners/administrators of vbulletin.org entertain the possibility of allowing developers to sell their works when the developers currently are not offering adequate support as stated?

I truely believe that the proposal to allow advertising of hacks would greatly "take away" from why individuals visit this site...I believe those developers that feel the need to commercialize their hacks should do so on their own sites. Which brings me to another point, I have clicked onto links of some "developers" only to find that they link back to vbulletin.org or that their site is no longer in existence. It is clear that there is much "cleaning up" that needs to be done from an integrity stand point, legal and customer support front, before vbulleting.org entertains the idea of appealing to some developers that wish to use a site that obviously has significant traffic for their advertising medium.

Now, if vbulletin.org is proposing this as a means to "generate a little profit" from a selling point of significant traffic, then why not just charge a nominal one time fee to all registrants, developers and others and refrain form inevitably damaging a good visitor base.

I can go on and on, but, I hope you all see the "many major pitfalls" in the idea to offer commercial space to developers onto a site that has built a reputation for offering free exchange of site ideas and enhancements. Either way you slice it, I think enabling developers to "sell" their works on vbulletin.org is a "lose, lose" proposition.

I don't think I like the idea.

If it does happen, I think a lot of loopholes need to be addressed, first, as mentioned in several posts before mine.

In quick summary...I vote no.

reasoning: I came to vb and come to sites related to vb such as this to learn more. I ran away from "nuke" sites to get away from stuff like this.

I like the community we have now and wish to see it like this for a long time.

simply put:

.org = free
.com = commercial

need I say anymore without using an oxymoron?

either way it goes, if a hack creator wants to make his hack a premium paid to use hack then thats his choice and we should allow it. we dont have to use their hacks, but if we want to, then we should have to pay for it if the creator wants us to.

i am for the premium world. since i stirred the pot up in the first place!!

i dont agree with vb asking for a link fee from the creators though. that is something i dont dig since a big portion of the forum has been developed using free hacks, vb should just accept the premium links for free, because we all know that in future releases, hacks releases, free or not, will be in the forum software, and that isn't always fair to the developer, but thats the way it is, and we allow it and theres really nothing we can do about it. but as for taking a fee from creators. no. no bueno.

however the system is setup, with a directory or a sub-forum linking to paid hacks, coo. taking money for it, no. we do pay enough for this forum, somone said that earlier. yall dont need much more.

Paid Hacks allowed here: Yes
Charge creators for linkage: No
Future development of the vbulletin: Priceless

and i might break the thread rule later by reposting on here cuz um...i dunno, just might ;)

I'm not happy with this notion.
I think vb.org has grown to be a great place to learn about new features and mods that were ought to have been thought of and implemented by vb.com in the first place.
I would rather donate to developers who developed code rather than pay a subscription or a fee to be able to access mods that may or may not be used by me.
I'm trying to understand the motive to ask us as members for the money.

If vb.com wants money from this, it is totally absurd.
This is the work of developers outside of vb.com and vb.com already got its license fees.
So, I'm not sure of who gets the money,. and/or how is it expected to be spent/divided?

Also, all the previous arguments about who is in charge of upgrades.. if this is a paid product, will this be upgraded and supported always?
The example provided by "if I find a word doc in google and it causes damage, will I hold google responsible". HUGE difference. Google doesn't charge. You do ask us to pay!

So my reasoning to object this are:

1. if vb.com wants a stake at this, they should implement these hecks as part of the built-in system and support it directly.
2. if vb.com charges money for the product, they should support it in future releases.
3. who gets the money and how do the great developers here get their share of this?

My vote is: NO,. I'm strongly against this!

-Alon.

As said before?

.org = free
.com = commercial

Make another site, don’t tarnish this one. I thought this community was all about helping each other out not for profit.

First of all

I understand that everyone tries to make a living and wants to get a piece of the cake. But with this support for paid hacks we all should be aware, that this deciscion is not a minor change of the vbulletin-community, the staff & coders and the outstanding efforts throughout the last years.

This is the edge.

Why do customers choose and register to Jelsoft and vBulletin ?

As I started to run my forums in the very early days (and for a couple of years) I used UBB. At a later time I had to recognize, that customizing this software was a pain in the ass and the dev-community lacking - beside the performance problems of UBB. What I was looking for was something that is reliable, fast, highly customizable and has a strong Developement-Community which - with tons of hardly coded apps, addons, code-hacks aso - makes the software vBulletin to that outstanding product, that it is today. We also should be clear that software like wbb or others are not that far behind when they are used out of the box - what really makes them unique and devides them are the hacks and mods. And as we speak - this website is the best example, who?s the tip of the spear.

My personal forecast..

What would happen if all hacks which will be released in the future are going to be commercial hacks ? At least for about 5 Dollars/Euros each?

I?m running about 25 to 30 hacks on my forums and I think about 10 to 15 are required to give your personal vBulletin-instance a glance of a customized community-board - that would mean I have to spent another grand to get the same results, for what was free until now.

Its obvious?that every little hack would go commercial - because we all are in need of some extra-money. I don?t understand why Jelsoft and vborg are supporting this. Didn?t they asked themselves the same questions:

• Do they think it?s an improvement for the coders ? Sure - they should receive some money for their hacks in return.

• Do they think it?s an improvement for the potential customer who was about to register to Jelsoft ? No. Hell no. If I would be at this point I would register to someone else where the Dev section is free. Vice-versa I?ld have to face the fact, that paying Jelsoft for vB is just the beginning and the overall costs with all the needed hacks easily double or triple the costs. In other words - have you ever seen a template based, sql driven php-forum that costs at least about 250 to 350 bugs ? Not me - and I would give them hell, who dares to offer something like that with this pricing-scheme..

• Do they really think it?s an improvement for their customers ? To be honest - I love this software. But this is the opposite of an improvement. Who would release his hack here to vborg for free if he is aware that someone else is taking parts of his idea and/or code to build a commercial hack upon ? Me or others who believe in OpenSource and support the GNU and the vBCommunity ? Be sure - definitly not ! I don?t care if someone is using hacks or sourcecode I?ve written somewhere until he offers his hack in return for free to the public - all others should be dragged to court.. :dead: But that means also - because of that ! - that you?ll find less and less free hacks for vB - and Jelsoft would be about to loose a - no: the - major reason, to register to their software. Regarding the title of this article: Is it smart to plant a timebomb in your own house ? (If someone wants to sell his code: promote it yourself and leave the rest of us alone. If we want your product, we will find you, so don?t call us - we call you. )

In other words - I would and will end the continuied use of vBulletin if this would become reality. On one hand I?m sad that this commercialization reached now also the range of the modifications and the abolishment of license-free and free modifications feed motion is carried out - on the other hand I?m about to get really upset, that Jelsoft and vborg are seriously thinking about this as an "option".

What can I say now - it?s just sad.
Really sad..

Edit 1:


* Marv votes:

I am against this proposal.

I have always seen vb.org as a "by coders for coders" sharing community and this was a big factor in my decision to choose vbulletin over the competition.

It would be very sad to see this sharing community change into a for profit one. There are other places for that.

I have no problem finding and purchasing various paid hacks for vb if I feel that their service or quality earns that fee, but I can do that now with the existing system without the need to taint the community here at .org

/votes NO.

.org = free
.com = commercial

.org = free
.com = commercial

All free plugins & extensions will vanish very soon, which is bad for vbulletin! Coders would think twice before releasing free hacks.

I don't like the idea!

point one: extra addons make vbulletin.
point one: by charging a fee for a listing system that is not guaranteed to make money for the coder the addon maker must take a financial gamble.
point one: without the free addons there wouldn't be a vb.org for the commercial addon listings to be put on (for a fee).
point one: there should be no fee.
point two: why not focus on the way free addons are added and sorted. The present system is horrible to browse, especially for newbs. Maybe then commercial hacks could sit with free hacks but with a big gold dollar to show its commercial maybe with a filter to hide commercial addons for certain users who find it acceptable to pay jelsoft for a forum code and not some individual with a unique idea to increase functionality a fraction of that amount for alot more hard work.

simply: hack releasers make vb.org what it is and vb so popular. There is no reason to charge coders for a listing...

I can't really see the motiviation behind this or this being a good thing at all. vBulletin.org was designed and has been a source for free and publically available open source modifications for as long as I've owned my vBulletin license. I admire the hack authors that take the time to code, debug, and test their hacks and release them for no cost. Think about it though. It allows commercial hack authors to submit their hacks to a considerably sized audience of vBulletin owners and gain exposure (and consequently...sales). They pay Jelsoft for the right to advertise their hacks. If the commercial hacks start making enough money to justify the fee, more and more hack authors will jump on the band wagon, moving over to commercial options instead of the free open source option. These hack authors will make a profit, Jelsoft will make a profit, and the end user will be forced to pay for hacks that were originally free. Whose winning here?

And to share MidnightPyro's opinion I also think this would greatly reduce the popularity of vBulletin/vB.org, I myself wouldn't have bought a license if there were this many free hacks/mods available, I'd have rather used phpBB then - huge hackdatabase but not the same quality as offered here now. I personally prefer donationware, if a hack is really good and very usable I'd rather donate afterwards than pay before seeing anything.