Yeah, those are the moz-x / webkit-x style attributes. It's impossible to get those bits of CSS to work in IE. They don't work in IE because they are kind of proprietry for webkit and firefox, they will be properly introduced in CSS 3. I wasn't very impressed when I saw the vBulletin were using these, as IMO a site should look the same in different browsers.

I was kind of stunned when I just tried to change the color of various elements. Some colors can be changed in style vars, others in templates. Some colors are even not defined at all, so changing i.e. the background color of the forum to black, one will have black text drowning in black background as some text boxes are just transparent. Some colors are specified in rgb(x,y,z)-syntax, others as #xxyyzz hex color codes which makes it quite difficult to find an replace colors all over the forum. Apparently, there is no logic at all behind the style system.

Admittedly, the longer I work with vB4, the more I am disappointed - and that's not just about the styles.

For me personally as a designer, when I first saw the vB4 stylevar system in the early alpha testing, I immediate disliked it. I have only gone back to it when working on clients' sites.

It's a pathetic mess and vBulletin (as an entity) should really be embarrassed by it IMO. And intriguingly enough - not much has changed from the alpha to beta to vB 4.0 Gold to vB 4.1 as far as I'm concerned. Admittedly - I have not tested the 4.1 series - but from what I've heard = YUCK!

A little tongue-in-cheek (but not really) ==> vB 4 should now almost be ready to be sold as a "gold" version. Wouldn't it be funny if we woke up tomorrow, only to read that the vB.com announcement of the day is that 4.0 Gold is now ready for purchase after a year and a half long testing phase...? NIGHTMARE!

Jacquii.

Speak for yourself. I vote with my dollars.

The table vs css thing has been around for a while and irrelevant to me. I pay for such a product so I don't have to think about these things. What I need is a product that "works".....which means I can build a huge community with the least amount of technical distractions.

The Stylevars would have been a fine system in 2001. A decade letter it's about the most inefficient manner for working that I can think of. In fact, I believe the vb3 system was superior. I could style a forum in an hour. The new method has taken me 30 so far and I'm still not happy.

Lack on inherit styles on the font end is INSANE.

Sometimes keeping fontsize on it's own and then other times including it under font is INSANE. Pick one. Stick with it. (I prefer the latter.)

The ability to view and change multiple css options at once seems to intuitive, that I'm tempted to develop a conspiracy theory as to why it was omitted.

Creating a little preview thing with stock data that updates real time via Regex or equivalent is something that could be developed in an afternoon for $80 using a guy on Odesk. In fact, I regret not having this created specifically for me before going into this theme change!

This "bit of work" is the problem. I don't have an issue with work. It's rare when I'm not putting in 18 hours. It's WHAT I'm working on. Walking is work, too. That's why we have cars and planes. I feel like I'm back to using a horse right now.

The same progressive viewpoint that leads to table-less css should be driving vBulletin to be as efficient as possible in achieving the webmaster's goals. vB4 is a step backwards in this regard so far.

Maybe. It's NOT easy when you have an old theme you want to match. I played with the style generator for 2 hours and never got anything that looked acceptable to me. That's subjective, I guess.

Definitely! It seems that if two web guys with any skill at all got together to create their dream setup, it would take them about 4 hours to put together something amazing, fast, ultra-flexible, and simple. The fact that 4 hours was not taken for something so important makes me wonder what else was thrown together on a whim with no thought.

Great! I really need an all-in-one solution for CMS, forum, etc. I wonder what else is out there.

What's interesting is it's not like they created a dumbed-down system so that anyone could create a theme. (I'm thinking the ol' Myspace layout generators.) I would have hated that, too. It seems the Stylevars system is bad for laymen and us experienced dudes.

"Embarrassed" is just a start. I'm wondering how many of us it would take demanding our money back to get them to actually give a damn about their software again.

Brandon

Well, I believe that in many cases "less" actually is more. In the meantime I've continued my work on my skin. I don't know how often I've come across hard-coded color codes - or something like "background: white" instead of referencing to a style variable for some default background.

Also, there are some tab-like links in a user's profile (about me, user messaging, friends, ...). Similar tabs can be found in the calendar to switch between yearly, monthly, weekly and daily views. Those tabs look different! And, what a surprise, they are defined in completely different places in a completely different way. Why don't use the same style sheet definition for both tabs?

To me it appears as if the developers were working on their own - not caring what the others were doing. I don't claim them guilty for this mess, the responsibility lies within the software management, those few guys that created functional and/or technical designs for the developers to work with.

That product definitely is not in a state which allows it to be sold as a completed software package. That's not even alpha stage, 'cause every serious management would have rejected that crap immediately and started all over again...

You probably have guessed it, I really am quite disappointed...

There are some things that you cannot do with CSS, no matter how hard you try. That is where the tables and tds come in handy.

You know, I've only worked with vB4 styles a little bit. And I while I kinda see the issue, I also kinda don't see the issue. I mean, sure, it's not the easiest thing the world. But then, when I got into vBulletin, it took me years to figure out what the CSS options did, too. Sure, I didn't know what I was doing back then, but from my perspective, the only thing I'm really seeing is I have something else I have to learn. Which pretty much is the story of my life when it comes to coding in general. Nothing has changed for me. And even the CSS in vB3 doesn't do what I want it to a lot of the time. It's just familiar. Not necessarily better.

I do have to disagree with Boofo in this last post, though. I'm convinced you can do anything you want in CSS that you could do with tables. The only difference, you won't necessarily be able to do it easily. Or quickly. Or within the year. But I've almost always found a solution if I look long and hard enough. The week long breaks in between notwithstanding.

I think as much as CSS may be the standard, we're still just not used to it. It's still the horseless carriage to our stagecoach. Faster, more modern, but not as friendly or as easy to brush.

Gotcha on this one. Try lining up a left column and right column in CSS like you could with TDs (like in the attached pic where the dates can vary in length). It won't happen with CSS no matter how hard you try.

I'm not sure what you mean, exactly. Do the two columns need to do anything special other than be side by side?

Yes, they both need to line up on the left of each column. Like in the pic. If one date is long, the second column will adjust for it so they are all even. You can't do that with CSS. I have searched all over the net, and that is what the consensus is from anyone and everyone.