Our company's attorney, who specializes in Intellectual Property law, concurs with SpeedStreet's assessment.

That said, other large-scale forum software communities - like Ultimate Bulletin Board, or phpBB - have thrived in large part because of the autonomy of their coder and hacker communities. This is often considered a principal precondition upon the long-term viability and success of forum software in general - its ability to be modified to suit the needs and desires of its legitimate customers. If you consider the few case studies of forum software companies that have restricted or prohibited modification of their software in any form (e.g., WowBB, Wonderboard, and the like) it makes perfect sense for communities to pursue autonomous coding development environments.

Kaelon

speed i totally understand those ramifications and what about releasing hacks that will actually spawn other hacks in a positive manor. right now i may have to write this script from scratch because its not available. which makes me mad. someone took his time to release something that could be of benifit and due to its power is removed.

Thats not entirely true. There are other methods as well.

Sure I do.

The License Agreement already allows for code modifications.

That is correct. The letter of the law is applied to the Licensing Agreement and in cases where it is completely unambiguous, it is applied to protect the author. In cases where the license is ambiguous, then the interpretation is given to protect the defendent, not the author. Your analysis was only half-complete. Thats why Kier's "spirit of the contract" post was laughable.

I'm glad those brave men who gathered in Philadelphia in 1776 had a little more backbone than you're demonstrating. Remember, we are REACTING to a Jelsoft action - deleting a hack because its not in their interest, not because it violates the LA. That determination can only be made in court be a judge.

The reality is they are enforcing their opinion as edict. They can only do this because it is their site. On a site free from their self-serving rules, their opinion becomes just that - an opinion. For it to have the full force of law, they have to file suit and carry the burden of proof. It ratches the argument up a few notches because if they fail to do due diligence, they stand to not only lose a suit, but a load of money as well in the inevitable counter-suit. They will not be able to be so cavalier as to assume they can impose the "spirit of the contract", something that has no legal weight.

That is their choice. They precipitated this situation.

The community of hackers is already self-policing on quality. This site has a load of poorly written hacks and hackers that call them on it. One of my first hacks falls into this category, so I know what I'm talking about.

Hasn't Jelsoft already pushed us in this direction? Try posting a "template" hack here and watch the mods flame you. It belongs on one of the other Jelsoft sites.

We wouldn't be responsible for that. The only way that situation could possibly exist is if the base code is pirated. It is not our job to police the internet for Jelsoft's pirated software. Thats there job. I would say that we should ask everyone for their license and co-operate with providing user information if someone from Jelsoft identifies that as a pirate copy. Additionally, if they want to provide us a list of pirated licenses, I'm sure we would block them from registration and report their personal information proactively.

But as far as having them approve/disapprove the content, no way in hell.

When I see this hack reinstated, perhaps. But there may already be too much water under the bridge. Some actions, once began, take on a life of their own.

i don't think anyone is attempting a coup.. i also think smart enough admins know to restrict the creation of forums to only those that must be moderated.. ie.. ask for a forum, if it is legit, you get.. if not.. you get lost..

however, all that being said, i think the hack (vBhosting) was a LEGIT hack for LEGIT uses and as has been pointed out, almost all hacks can be used in a way for not so great means.. not to mention the software itself can be used for ill means.. such as forums set up where speech is so that it borders on liable, discrimination and anti-semetic.. but you can only patrol so much in a day..

governing is sometimes better left in the hands of the people licenses and laws are meant to govern.. not in the hands of a government or governing body..

i am not willing to set up a site in direct competition with any one particular party or entity.. but i don't think restricting the type of hacks made, unless the sole purpose is to generate harm or break law/copyright/trademark rules and/or laws..

i see no basic harm in this hack, and i see no basic harm in the lockdown hack.. i see basic harm in preventing people from gaining knowledge.. therefore insuring not only hostility, but genuine ignorance when there is no need for either.. ignorance is not bliss when there is a chance to give the knowledge and not maintain the ignorance..

anyway, if nemisis wants to set up a site, and he is willing to share his name and allow it hosted on my box, and dark wizard and miratos are willing to lend their ability to moderate and generally help run the boards, then i see no reason not to have a more open forum willing to discuss the pros and cons of EVERYTHING and not seek approval before generating a debate based on those pros and cons..

i will not seek to be an approved site of jelsoft.. i don't care about all of that.. nor do i think most honest people here, and even those dishonest.. let's face it, we all love the software (vBulletin) but we don't like the mushrooming (kept in the dark and fed ++++) mentality that has been increasing now for ages.. it is not only not fair to people who pat 85 to 160 for this software, it is unfair to the makers, in the long run, because then you have no chance to see the potential for good that can come out of something that at first glance may seem bad..

so if folks want to do a site, i am all for it and will deal with it on my box.. if not, that is ok too.. but an OPEN forum does not exist within any vB community.. and personally, i am ready for an OPEN FORUM to speak in.. and not have to constantly question myself and wonder if what i said is ok or not..

damn.. sorry about the diatribe.. :(

Erm, let me throw in a fact:

The vb hosting hack has not been removed because of the fact that this site is controlled by Jelsoft.
It has been removed, because Jelsoft thinks that it is breaking the License agreement.
As i already said, the lawyers will have to look at this and decide, wether or not Jelsoft is right.

BUT: If Jelsoft is right, that this hack is breaking the License agreement, no other site is allowed to release this hack as well, as you're then supporting an illegal activity. So this whole discussion about another Hacking site because of this special topic here is irrelevant.

Just because Jelsoft's paid lawyers say the hack is in breach of the licensing agreement, does not mean it actually is. As has already been discussed heavily here, the point is disputed and the only way to get a fair ruling is if Jelsoft chooses to pursue this matter in a court of law - with an impartial judge.

The fact that Jelsoft is apparently consulting with lawyers tells everyone there's no chance in hell this hack is ever coming back, whether its legal or illegal. They don't want people using it, they don't want to risk losing a few sales and they are now trying to ensure their licensing agreement covers and prevents another situation like this from happening again. Jelsoft has every right to enforce their licensing agreement to the letter.... but don't pass the buck and say any lawyers are to blame for this situation as it stands now. :)

Hey Speed...I just want you to know, your ability to argue far outclasses mine, so I won't even try to compete on your level...but I did want to bring up just a couple of points.

Right now it is 2 hacks...it could be 3 next week...and 4 the week after...maybe 5 next month...etc. It isn't the number of hacks...its the principle. Especially when the reason for the removal of the hacks is nebulous at best.

The splintering of the community is something that TPTB brought on themselves with their heavy handed actions, policies and fostering of distrust and division within the community.

Xenon - it's not just all about this one hack either...this is just like the straw that broke the camel's back. Lockdown didn't break the LA. Again, it has to do with the principle.

As for whether or not it breaks the LA...only a judge can make that decision if the hack author wishes to put legal opinion to the test.

----

I think that the funny thing is...this hack probably would never have gotten so much attention if it had been left alone or if they had quietly asked for the name to be changed.

But hey...I could be wrong...IANAL...I reserve the right to be wrong on all counts.

and I am still up for helping with an unofficial hack site.

The lockdown hacks policy is Jelsofts and it was imposed at the original hacking forum at vBulletin.com. It is used most of the time on warez boards for bad reasons, thus its not allowed.

But the hack itself is not warez, not breaking the LA and not something everyone would use..

again, you have to ask is it the higher ups that want to run everything for everybody, or is it the admins that have the licenses that run the boards that should be allowed to make their own decisions..

the decision to not allow the hack, as Miratos pointed out for vBhosting, as was the same for the lockdown hack, has generated more crap about either hack than what would have been generated by the thread for the hack alone..

i personally am all for jelsoft and making a buck or two.. but i have common sense and am well able to govern myself and my server and my vB license.. without the interference of vBulletin.org, vBulletin.com or Jelsoft proper, thank you very much.

Redistributing of this hack is not allowed by the hacks license. So nobody will send it to you. It's that simple...

It's important to note that the vBulletin license that you have purchased (or leased, if you went the leased route) comes with terms and conditions, among which are certain inherent proprietary rights that Jelsoft has in order to ensure that their software isn't being modified in order to adversely impact their sales. It makes perfect sense.

We seem to have alot of people posting, most with zero knowledge of how this hack works and even more so with little or no experience in copyright law.

It does not matter how much you "believe" that you should be in control of your own code. The simple and plain fact is that Jelsoft (and IPB and PHPBB) are only ALLOWING you to use their code. When you purchase a license, the company is allowing you to receive one version of their product under their rules and guidelines.

Jelsoft has every right to protect the integrity and reputation of their product. If they see the wind blowing in a way that could irrevocably damage their market brand, they can alter the agreement to protect themselves and their product.

This is ending badly. A few sour apples that think they know what is right and just are going to end up hurting us all. Jelsoft has many different options from this point forward, and yb asking for the community to comprise with them is far more than they really need to do.

Haven't you ever heard of something being a privilege, and not a right?

It is our privilege to be allowed to modify and hack the code of vBulletin as we see fit. How many other corporations would allow you to have everything their company is built upon, and say, "Here...now go make it unique for yourselves"

This is tremendous power and responsibility Jelsoft gives us. All they are asking for are some VERY minor adjustments in some of the hacks that we all create. Is that really such a monumental travesty that we have to go around and start discussing renegade hacking communities peppered with hacks specifically aimed at thumbing the nose at Jelsoft?

PLEASE. Take a deep breath, walk away from this thread, and in a few days come back to it and ask yourself what the cost/benefit of a site like vBulletin.org has. At its height (when I started here), you could get answers to hacking questions, see new hacks every day, and generally it was a fun place to go on my favorites list. Now, it has befallen a new generation of animosity and angst...Where everybody thinks they can do it better than the next guy.

Either way this is bullcrap. This is a nice hack and has plenty of good uses. I dont see why they have to start this kind of crap everytime there comes a hack that could be used for something controversial. The lockdown hack can also be used for good as well as this hack.

and me using the lockdown hack to protect certain information or only allow certain information to be seen by fellow posters limits jelsofts income how, exactly?

me wanting vbhosting to allow mods of subforums to use custom colors and logo takes away from jelsofts profits how, exactly?

keep in mind, i don't charge folks for subforums.. nor have i ever, nor do i ever intend to.. i don't stiffle growth because it's the only thing in this world that, if stiffled, creates a dominant defeatist attitude.. that of which i do not have..

as far as intellectual property rights, law and the violation therein.. i don't know a great deal.. however, i know it's not my case to prove in court if someone comes after me.. the burden of proof lies within the case of the complaintant.. not the defendant.. that is a fact and some i do know with 100% certainty.. it would only be my job to defend myself..

You are INCORRECT.

Even Jelsoft's lawyers - who work for Jelsoft and are paid to represent their point of view - are only expressing an OPINION.

We have had one lawyer on this board also render an OPINION that, in his experience, the hack does not violate the LA.

The only one who can STATE AS FACT that the hack violates the license agreement is a judge so Jelsoft's OPINION does not prohibit sany site from releasing the hack.

In fact, any site can release the hack NOW and Jelsoft's ONLY alternative is to file suit as their OPINION would be non-binding on any non-Jelsoft site. Then they have the burden of proving their case. In this particular instance, they're going to fall well short.

So please do not mislead people into thinking that Jelsoft's OPINION is anything other than that and that is in any way binding on any independent site.

Jelsoft has the right at any time to alter the license agreement in a retroactive fashion at which would render your theory wrong.

Additionally, and add-on or modification to the source code of vBulletin is subject to the same license agreement under International Copyright Law and therefore would be considered a violation of the LA.

Jelsoft has every right, and I would assume every intention, or protecting itself.

Yes, you could go run off and threaten a lawsuit, FASherman, but what would it accomplish? The destruction of vB? Them altering the flexible licensing agreement already in play?

It has been the benefit of the community to be able to use and modify vBulletin. Paying for a thing does not necessarily give you the right to destroy a thing.

FYI, Jelsoft cannot sue or bring any valid legal action against a site which carries/distributes the vBHosting hack. The hack itself does not violate the EULA. Only when the hack is applied to the source does it then violate the EULA. So, unless the site is distributing modified copies of the vBulletin source code, Jelsoft has absolutely no legal ground to stand on in the matter.

This same scenario applies to "cracks" for software programs. The crack in and of itself is no more legal or illegal than the program it modifies.

Just thought I'd point that out..

I think I mentioned 10 or 15 pages ago that Jelsoft would have to consult thier attorney's regarding the hack regardless....

I dont think anyone here disagrees with the fact that the hack could potentially be misused. And I dont think anyone here has said that Jelsoft was not in thier rights to those would would in essence give out thier software for free....

This hack, given what it accomplishes, would need to have legal review it simply because if Jelsoft puts it back up with a note saying 'hey this hack is okay, have fun' ... it may jeopordize how they legally go after the real culprits.


Speedstreet makes a good point, one I tried to present as well. This is going nowhere fast, the same arguements are being re-hashed out again and again. The alternatives being discussed such as a new hacking community and lawsuits would ultimately do more harm than good.

At this point it appears that there are inreconciliable differences of opinion regarding this hack so the only thing to do at this point is wait for Jelsoft offical last word on it. If some feel that they must take thier business elsewhere, or create an alternative site for hacking, then so be it.

I dont have the hack but if the installation instructions contain Jelsoft code (which almost every hack does) then it would be a copyright violation.

Agreed. But it's not hard to circumvent that, either. With proper wording, the instructions could be modified to be within legal boundaries.

* edit: It's also a matter of how much code is displayed in the instructions. Jelsoft doesn't "own" a routine, they own the program as a whole.

No, they don't. Whoever informed you of that is incorrect.

Again, you aren't taking the full situation into consideration. You can't ignore past history. Taking a few hours to Google copyright law doesn't make you an expert. That fact that this site and others, such as vbulletin.nl and eVB, exist and distribute hacks would be considered implicit permission to the community at large. Selective enforcement is, in itself, a valid defense.

No one disputes this. The question is whether their interests and mine coincide. If they do not, I have every right to protect myself and seek my best interests.

Where are you getting this from? The only party that would have a need to initiate a lawsuit is Jelsoft.

You are so far off in left field that I'm not going to continue to discuss this with you. Your arguments are illogical and you ascribe actions and motives to people where none have been suggested or even implied.

So, they took a poll to find out it was mostly used on warez boards and for neferious purpose? or did they assume?

I mean, if they claim 'most of the time' they have facts and figures to back up that claim? or is it a proclamation from on high, just because it can be abused? in which case...they could claim that of any hack, what-so-ever...ban anything, for any reason..simply because it 'might' be abused on a warez board.

Hmmm. Well, I always do say, its good to be the King :)

Just goes to show..there needs to be a non-controlled vbhack's site.

From the license agrement

Speed pointed out that was a weak clause here:
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost....&postcount=118

I also do not think that encompasses the ability to retroactively change the license agreement.

Anytime a LA changes, the end user still has to accept it...as evidenced by paypal or Everquest on a regular bases :)

I think the only reason why Jelsoft doesn't want to go towards the ezBoard model is its complexity and lost of revenue. If this hacked had offered less control than an administrator, it would probably encourage users to get the full version of vBulletin rather than using a hosting solution.

More to a point, Kier is product manager and I don't think he felt this hack represented vBulletin properly.

This hack could violate another agreement, and that would be profiting. Imagine if someone charged money for hosting....and hosted a gazillion vBulletin hostees, well they would be profiting more than Jelsoft and that would be putting Jelsoft out of business.

A very similar idea/concept would be buying a single copy of Windows and installing it on a dozen computers.

That's basically what this hack is doing..

Having a person buy a single copy of vBulletin and having multiple individual UNIQUE boards running.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that it is in force once changed. A modified LA would apply to any new licenses sold after that date or any leased licenses upon renewal after the change. It would not EVER affect any owned licenses sold prior to the change.

Wrong again.

And after your comments, I refuse to partake in this discussion further. At this point FASherman, I consider your comments to be incindeary and out of line.

I am choosing to leave this discussion and I hope that those of you that have read my posts have found some sort of sense applied to them.

On a final note, I will say this: The laws binding this license agreement allow Jelsoft to apply changes retroactively to the license agreement. A license agreement is a rolling contract, whereas a Terms agreement when you purchase product cannot be applied at a later date.

You are free to try this in a court of law if you want, but in the past ten years, Microsoft, Yahoo, AOL and Real have had similar cases brought against them, and they have won them with resounding results. Therefore, precendent has been set.

You don't really have any idea what this hack does, right?

DING DING DING! We have a winner!

The hack does not in any way, shape or form, offer admin access. That seems to be a common misconception.

There is no requirement that it should.

That does not violate the LA.

No, it doesn't. You are misrepresenting the nature of the hack.


They are not unique. Riddle me this one, Batman...

Can they change the avatar policy for "their board"?
Can they change the attachment limitations for "their board"?
Can they change the PM policies for "their board"?
Can they change the calendar policies for "their board"?
Can they change any user attributes for "their board"?
Can they view user IP addresses on the posts in "their board"?
Can they hack "their board"?

No, they can't do any of those things, can they? They can't even email users. They can't archive threads. They have no access to the admin functions within a thread.

In short, they are not unique boards. Please, in the interest of honest, do not lie to folks who may not have seen the hack first hand and only have your misleading descriptions to rely upon.

ALL they can do is create a subforum or set of subforums and apply a style or set of styles. Plain and simple. Making this out to be a "unique board" is intellectually fraudulent.

This has gone far enough and is simply going in circles. We will continue discussing this with our lawyers and the business owners and at such a time that a decision is made, the original author of the hack will be contacted.