Suggestions for commercial scripts

[The Geek]

As per Marcos suggestion in a previous thread, I am starting this thread as an open discussion regarding suggestiong on the possability of vbulletin.org offering customers a way to be aware of commerical vB enhancements while keeping the integral free script side of the community where its at (healthy and strong).

Although (I think) Marco hinted that they already have a good idea how and if they will proceed with something... I thought I would start things off with my suggestion on the previous thread: A directory.

What I would like to see is something like a directory of commercial scripts where users can rate and comment on the price, quality, support, etc...

[yoyoyoyo]

Great idea! I don't think that would conflict with the commercial side of vbulletin - it would enhance their market appeal: "We have the best BB software in the world, and all of these available addons prove it!" If they were smart Jelsoft would offer a commercial (IE: PAID) listing of additional hacks.

Look at Pinnacle systems (another UK-based company) as a model, and you will see that they do allow 3rd party commercial products that are addons to their "Studio" software to be sold, in fact they even have a way to do it through the software! These addons have helped push "Studio" to become one of the best/most used video editing software packages in the world.

Don't charge much- just a small percentage of the sales- like a tax for the seller- and have them link through vbulletin.com to keep track of those sales. They could even have a link in the ACP that takes you to the commercial addon page at jelsoft.

I like the feedback/rating idea.

[nexialys]

a simple weblinks of all the possible ressources would be the only solution, because the more you add, the more support have to be given... a weblink (let's say vbAdvanced one!) is a good solution, because we have a description of the product, and the link - even the rating from the clients can be added.

more would mean control and abstraction of clients - not all clients are happy with the products and may cause trouble in ratings, classifications and deals with coders.

we already had a lot of discussions about commercial scripts, and it all turns into flames regarding support or external services...

[The Geek]

I think vBa links (or something similar) would be pretty much ideal.

[yoyoyoyo]

a simple weblinks of all the possible ressources would be the only solution, because the more you add, the more support have to be given... a weblink (let's say vbAdvanced one!) is a good solution, because we have a description of the product, and the link - even the rating from the clients can be added.

more would mean control and abstraction of clients - not all clients are happy with the products and may cause trouble in ratings, classifications and deals with coders.

we already had a lot of discussions about commercial scripts, and it all turns into flames regarding support or external services...Well- it would be one solution but not the only one. More "control" also means more $ for Jelsoft. I think that a paid commercial listing and a free one could possibly co-exist. I am sure that the revenue produced by adding a paid commercial listing would justify hiring someone part-time to deal with it. But- I am not going to take this thread off into another tangent: the discussion is about a lisitng or no listing- not a paid listing. Just adding my .03

Commercial hacks are not going to go away - as more coders here get better at coding and start offering new and innovative hacks they are going to want to be rewarded with more than a HOTM icon or the occasional paypal donation. I am surprised that ZT (and others here) didn't go "commercial" long ago- but I am sure it is on the horizon. We all know that these hacks are born out of many hours of coding and testing, and personally I do not mind paying for hacks that I will use. Naturally, some hacks would never fall into the commercial category, since I would never pay for a simple template edit hack, etc.. Of course as more hacks go commercial they will have to realize that warez and torrent sites are going to pass around their hacks- it is a given, and that is something the author will have to deal with.

[Osterling]

I think this change could have a ripple affect on the site, in which more hacks would be released commercially(for pay) instead of being released free. vBulletin is known for it’s hacks and it’s also why people buy vBulletin because of vBulletin.org. I think if vBulletin.org would allow this, it could ruin the forum.

But that is just my perspective.

[FleaBag]

I'd never considered that option before, you do have a valid point - but I guess I'm still for a directory.

[yoyoyoyo]

I think this change could have a ripple affect on the site, in which more hacks would be released commercially(for pay) instead of being released free. vBulletin is known for it?s hacks and it?s also why people buy vBulletin because of vBulletin.org. I think if vBulletin.org would allow this, it could ruin the forum.

But that is just my perspective.The fact is it is already happening. If Jelsoft ignores it and acts like it isn't happening, or to attempts to stifle that aspect of what is already happening THAT could ruin the board, IMO. When someone like Brian or Cinq or The Geek takes their codes off of vb.org and posts them solely on their sites what affect does THAT have on this site? If instead they work with the authors, and allow them the ability to advertise their sites as well as work within the community by offering beta versions to people here that will increase the quality of the hacks, and people will have an input on their development (and will also learn a thing or three about coding).

[Andreas]

As already said in the other Thread:
I don't like the idea of having any commercial stuff here, be it a directory or whatever.
If this is going to happen, it might be a hard decision if I am going to stay.
But that is just my personal opinion as a User.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

I think this change could have a ripple affect on the site, in which more hacks would be released commercially(for pay) instead of being released free. vBulletin is known for it?s hacks and it?s also why people buy vBulletin because of vBulletin.org. I think if vBulletin.org would allow this, it could ruin the forum.
This is one of the sides to this story that we are taking into consideration. Releasing Hacks commercially is requires more then just put them on your homepage and say that people must pay for them, you will have to take care about the logistics, advertising and things like that. For a lot of coders the possible revenue (unless they go ask high prices for a single hack, which will cause them other problems like nobody buying, piracy, others creating a similar hack for free, etc..) the trouble of this just ooutweights the revenue.

Now what would happen if any coder can easily release their work as a paid hack, and can also easily take care of things like advertising by posting here at vb.org? Would they still release their 'small' (no disrespect intended, i made a lot of small things myself) hacks for free? Or would they think, hey i can ask $5 for this one, hmm this is bigger, well what the heck, let's ask 25 for this? Would we still have a community that mostly has free hacks?

I know some coders would always be relesing most of their work for free, but what percentage would that be?

Just some things to think about. :D

[Osterling]

The fact is it is already happening. If Jelsoft ignores it and acts like it isn't happening, or to attempts to stifle that aspect of what is already happening THAT could ruin the board, IMO.

When what is already happening?

When someone like Brian or Cinq or The Geek takes their codes off of vb.org and posts them solely on their sites what affect does THAT have on this site? If instead they work with the authors, and allow them the ability to advertise their sites as well as work within the community by offering beta versions to people here that will increase the quality of the hacks, and people will have an input on their development (and will also learn a thing or three about coding).

They allow The Geek to advertise his website; through signature just like I am able to do.

Let me just add, with this thread and the "vB Auto Linker banned here?" thread I think The Geek got enough publicity for his paid hack ;)

[FleaBag]

My input from the other thread.

I think the directory is a good idea. I'm a bit of a fan of paid hacks - don't get me wrong free ones are great - but paid hacks allow a new level, and in my experience a great level of support [e.g. Brian and Zack @ vBA]. I've bought everything on vBAdvanced, and now finding The Geek's site I intend to buy all the hacks there... They are valuable additions to my site! A directory would be a great idea, as The Geek says, for regular BB owners like me to access great software I wouldn't otherwise know about. Perhaps hack authors could even make a donation to charity to be allowed to list their hack here? A rating system for the directory would be great also - I know lots of people have been ripped off by indie vB sites in the past - many because they simply weren't allowed to discuss the sites in detail here and never had a chance to be told any different - an official directory would certainly thwart the cowboys - if they aren't allowed in [or are slated in] a directory - you'd know to steer clear!

Have to admit though, hearing Kirby say a directory here may cause him to leave is alarming. Maybe a directory isn't such a good idea if it will cause users to leave in this way - I see him as a valuable asset to this community, together with many other members (who I wouldn't want to see leave).

[Osterling]

Now what would happen if any coder can easily release their work as a paid hack, and can also easily take care of things like advertising by posting here at vb.org? Would they still release their 'small' (no disrespect intended, i made a lot of small things myself) hacks for free? Or would they think, hey i can ask $5 for this one, hmm this is bigger, well what the heck, let's ask 25 for this? Would we still have a community that mostly has free hacks?

I know some coders would always be relesing most of their work for free, but what percentage would that be?

Just some things to think about. :D

A coder that would charge 5 dollars for a hack wouldn't charge, but how good is the hack (no disrespect to small hacks). What I am saying is, major hacks such as the Arcade, the CMS could become paid hacks because the authors know they would be able to make some money off of there code.

On the other side. Coders should be able to charge for there work, as they do not owe anything to anyone here. However letting hackers use vB.org as a way to advertise only makes it more appeasing to release it paid hacks since they would have a way to advertise.

[nexialys]

you forgot a point here, and a major one in the situation... you mess Commercial and Paid...

Paid scripts are addons, modules, hacks released by vB coders that want to be paid for their job...

Commercial Addons are from companies that expand their capabilities by adding vBulletin as a integrated part, or the opposite...

basically, Commercial stuff is not a single way advertised here... i for one, released a ±userplane addon last month, and nobody was aware of such a tool until i build the small addon for it... that company offer a range of softwares to add features to vBulletin, but are not a single way related to vB.org... they even did not know about the existence of this site the day before i release the addon... so how can they register here and release their addon if they are not informed of the fact ?!

you know, Esvon ?!... one of a big company that produce a range of softwares related to classified and cms... they have a addon to connect to vBulletin users table and share the users database... noone here is informed because Esvon can't advertise... but Esvon are not vB coders, they are a company that provide extra work for vB owners... how these vB owners can be informed of that possibility if Esvon can't advertise on the site where all vBowners go for their addons ?!

this is the way i see this... i don't care about vB coders that want to be paid for their job.. the Services Request forum is there for the ones wanting to be paid... i'm more interested to find more resources in the future... actually, i do my search myself, but 99% of vB owners will not have the time or don't know how to search...

EDIT: and for one, only charge $$ for hacks that will provide profits for the client that request the hack... a simple hack that modify a display or add a functionality don't have to be paid if requested by the community... but i know that a classified system with paid subscriptions would bring profits to the site owner, so i would charge for it... logically... my 2¢ on profits.. lol

[FleaBag]

I like the feedback/rating idea.

And in regard to this, I think a moderation system would be ideal. All feedback or ratings open a 'Feeback Ticket' - a member of vB staff discusses a grievance with the user and evidence is supplied. If the moderator sees the negative feeback as being valid - it can be posted as public. Then similar to how eBay works - the hack author would be able to respond to negative feedback with reasoning/justification.

Just an idea. :)

But I think this thread is more for arguments for an against, than implimentation, so I'll shush now. :)

[The Geek]

I think saying that a solution for commercial enhancments would make someone not want to come here is a bit heavy.

Though I totally agree that you wouldnt want a solution that would drive people away from releasing something for free just because they could make a fiver on it - I think that would be a rarity. Regardless - if the quality is there and the demand... who cares? Is it that some peoples time isnt worth anything and others something? I cant see someone charging a fiver for a template change is it has to be hosted, supported, promoted and sold on a seperate site. The headache of all those hoops would be enough to prevent that from happening.
Lets face it, the strongest driving force behind this site will always remain intact and should be. Its not like everyone is going to stop producing FOC stuff. With commercial solutions usually comes FOC solutions of similar ilk.

I think nex's points are some of the best. Hell, I dont know of a tiny fraction of companies that can offer me solutions to enhance my site - which I guess is part of the reason for a request like this.

Oh, and I think the publicity comment was a bit lame. I started this thread on the suggestion of a moderator. I was hoping that thread would get buried rather quickly. This isnt a discussion about me or my work - this is a discussion about offering a much needed solution for Jelsofts customers. ;)

[Boofo]

I disagree. Some of the coders here that are charging for hacks got a lot of their coding skills for free on here. And I don't think charging for what they learned for free is any way to pay back what they've gained.

There are many coders on here that put in just as much time coding (and some even more time) free hacks as those that complain "I just can't do it for free anymore".

If they want to charge for their hacks, then they need to do it somewhere else other than a free, learning and sharing site.

[spence2]

How about simply a list called 3rd Party Resources (or something like that) ... commercial coders/designers can submit their URL with a sentence regarding their product.

No rating system.
No feedback.
No politics.
No liability for Jelsoft.
No recommendation implied.
Buyer beware.

You know ... kind of like the real world.

[FleaBag]

That being said Boofo, maybe Jelsoft should provide a new, seperate site with a directory - keep it away from the free community here at vB.org but link to it from here and vbulletin.com?

[GoTTi]

As already said in the other Thread:
I don't like the idea of having any commercial stuff here, be it a directory or whatever.
If this is going to happen, it might be a hard decision if I am going to stay.
But that is just my personal opinion as a User.

i find this comment to be uncalled for to threaten us if we as a community choose to pay for hacks on here or whatever...

this community is no more yours then it is ours. we all have licenses on here and we all pay the costs. to put the staff in a spot of choosing you over us is wrong and if thats your stance on things, who really runs and contributes to this site? the staff or the coders? to me, everyone runs this site. and thats how it should be since we contribute things on here to help out forums, make them look :speechless: and create things that others can use.

if your gunna go cuz a directory or commercial hacks will be implemented on here, then sorry to see you go, but adios.

[nexialys]

can we focus on the topic please, not sentiments ?!

[Floris]

Hello everybody,

I'd like to point out that this is an interesting topic to discuss, and I will bring this topic to the attention of the site manager(s) and Jelsoft manager(s). Just so you know.

Please feel free to discuss this further but on a point where posts are on-topic, contributing to the discussion, constructive and that means with arguments and not on a personal level. For that surely will help get an overview and proper feedback on the topic at hand.

Again, interesting and to be honest, worth discussing to get a clear view in the end. We're not ignoring it as Jelsoft, or as vBorg staff. Just letting you know.

[The Geek]

agreed ;)

I also agree with the thought that maybe an offsite directory may be the best solution for everyone. vb.org and vb.com can link to it, charge an annual subscription fee (which would make most think twice about submitting work there).
I think an annual fee would be better than a % as with a %, it would only get passed on to the customer 'as is' and the authors have no investment to make in order to sell.

It would be nice however to have the userbase be vb.com or .org just to keep things more interwoven.
I also think that it would be essentail that a valid feedback system is implimented. A user should be able to rate the value for money, functionality and support of the enhancment. In cases of a bad or negative rating, maybe a company response could be in order (like eBay).

Permit me to dream for a minute here... Would even be better if a system could be implimented where someone buys a product from the site, at time of purchase the authors site submits the (i dunno) email address to a vb.com script which posts back an authorisation number that could be used to pass protect the zip or act as a license number or something.
That way authors know their work is going to licensed users, vb knows whats getting sold and only users that purchased can leave feedback.

Maybe Im over thinking it. Its just a thought ;)

[cclaerhout]

Of course rules can be changed, but policy of this forum has been quite cleared since the beginning.

As good as are commercial scripts, i don't think they have their place in vb.org. Just let imagine a new member who has just bought vBulletin (160 dollars). "Cool i'm going to personalize my forum... So i must go to vbulletin.org... Let's see that. Hum, i love that hack : i want it ! Oh sh%^# i must pay. For this one too ! Why do i have to pay for all good hacks ! I can't afford them. If i would have known this, i would have kept working with phpbb.

The idea of a directory should be good, but it would compete with the Hack Of The Month. HOTM is a good system to motivate coders. Create a directory with comments will allow a new way of being motivated. I believe in the "ripple affect" discribed by exasko.

At the begining, i supposed most of hacks are made for coder's personal website. Up to him to decide if he wants to keep it for him or if he wants to to give it to the community. He's got the choice, it's his work.

Now, if he begins to create hacks to sell them, he must do that alone without complaining community doesn't want to support him. At the beginning, it's his decision, not the community's one. And when some originaly free hacks become commercials after an upgrade of vB, don't complain because you have to say goodbye. Some people wouldn't understand and will live this as a treason.

Again sorry for my poor english.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

i find this comment to be uncalled for to threaten us if we as a community choose to pay for hacks on here or whatever...

this community is no more yours then it is ours. we all have licenses on here and we all pay the costs. to put the staff in a spot of choosing you over us is wrong and if thats your stance on things, who really runs and contributes to this site? the staff or the coders? to me, everyone runs this site. and thats how it should be since we contribute things on here to help out forums, make them look and create things that others can use.He clearly marked that comment as personal and 'as a user', not as a Staff member, so i would say your response is uncalled for.

He is not claiming that this is his (or the Staff's) community, he is simply stating that he as a person, wouldn't feel in the right place if we would turn into a place like he is afraid of. It is his right (as a normal user) to ventilate his thoughts on this subject.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

I also think that it would be essentail that a valid feedback system is implimented. A user should be able to rate the value for money, functionality and support of the enhancment. In cases of a bad or negative rating, maybe a company response could be in order (like eBay).Never say never, but i doubt a rating/feedback system will ever be implemented. Who should moderate disputes about it, we don't have the time, knowledge or the powers to do so. Don't forget that when money is at stake, things can be played rough. Not to forget possible claims towards Jelsoft.
Permit me to dream for a minute here... Would even be better if a system could be implimented where someone buys a product from the site
Same thing, i doubt Jelsoft ever wants to become a party in between a business deal of 2 other people.

[AN-net]

i do not like the idea of commercial scripts on this site. as said already i believe it would cause a shift to many free hacks becoming paid and thus the community we have established here will suffer. however the rules on advertising could be lowered for signatures. i think my suggestion of vBulletin approved script is a great idea;)

[Osterling]

What if $member was to create a site with a directory that allowed hackers to and submit there hack to the directory. With the site set up, have hackers put a link in there signature here at vBulletin.org as a way to spread the word about the place.

[nexialys]

i doubt that a paid directory would give the best platform for advertising commercial/paid services... anyway, profit would be for who ?!

if Jelsoft is interested to have its products delivered to more people (the main goal of all companies), they have to show that their software is expandable beyond the point of their own script.

i'm not interested by the coders that build tools... again, i talk about real commercial systems/integrations etc... a complete banners system, a toplist script, a bingo, whatever... is not a line of code modified inside the forum itself, but a complete independant part... if these softwares can be added to vB itself, why not announce it?!

and for the comparaison with phpBB - useless... most addons and commercial scripts that connect to phpBB or anyother are not free either... if you want to stick with free stuff, you don't go where there is development. or you do the job yourself.

if you visit vb.org to have free stuff, this is not the best way to compliment the work of all coders here anyway... most of them work hard to learn this software and make it better... if they want to work for free, no problem, but many would like to have a living for this, because they want to expand a software that is not even free...

i never had a single client owner of vB that was requesting FREE jobs... they all know that a job is paid to the value of the result... some are even asking if they can be financed to have the work provided... some guys request donations on their sites to be able to pay for some addons... that mean they value the work of the coders... they know that can't have everything for free.

a good alternative would be a "hotscripts.com" - like website, where coders can advertise their releases - not their availability, but releases, and where companies can pay to have a better visibility (banners, icons, top of the lists, etc)... this would be the best situation possible, and no need for Jelsoft to negociate or evaluate the work of each coder...

i don't like the Rating idea to be good anyway... reputation exists on vB and nobody use it... why work on another alternative when the first one is already solid and not used... callback links is the best... a client visit the code repository, visit a coder, buy a script, and if he is happy, click back on the coder's website to the button "vote for me on the repository" ... bam, a vote... no vote == no value usually... (not === btw)

and i suggested something like that earlier this year, having an external site, and this was rejected for a single reason: Jelsoft want to control the visibility of their software, and this is good... internally, i have no problem... a repository of external links at vb.com is good anyway... or a new vb.net (for business on the net only)... ;)

[yoyoyoyo]

Never say never, but i doubt a rating/feedback system will ever be implemented. Who should moderate disputes about it, we don't have the time, knowledge or the powers to do so. Don't forget that when money is at stake, things can be played rough. Not to forget possible claims towards Jelsoft.

Same thing, i doubt Jelsoft ever wants to become a party in between a business deal of 2 other people.I mentioned Pinnacle Systems earlier - and they should be considered a good/successful business model. They have 3rd party addons to their software, that people can purchase through their software, that they are not liable for and do not support. I think that it is short-sighted business-wise to let some revenue like that slip through their hands, but I am not going to argue the point any further.

As far as the claims that everyone will start charging for every simple template edit that is silly, since the market will bear only what it can support. I don't forsee a lot of smalltime vb hackers opening up their corner lemonade stand with template edits and bb codes- and if the market will support that lemonade stand site for some odd reason then more power to them, but I doubt it will.

Also- any smart business person will still release free stuff through here as a means to educate people about their site.

[Osterling]

I don't think anyone is concerned about the small hacks, it's the hacks that are popular that coders could get away with charging.

[cclaerhout]

if you visit vb.org to have free stuff, this is not the best way to compliment the work of all coders here anyway... most of them work hard to learn this software and make it better...

Everybody works hard on vB. Even beginners. I visit vb.org cause it's a community where help can be asked and given to tune vB. Not because i can download free stuff !!!


if they want to work for free, no problem, but many would like to have a living for this, because they want to expand a software that is not even free...

It they want to work and make vB as a job, no problem. But the community is not the good place for this in my opinion.



i never had a single client owner of vB that was requesting FREE jobs... they all know that a job is paid to the value of the result... some are even asking if they can be financed to have the work provided... some guys request donations on their sites to be able to pay for some addons... that mean they value the work of the coders... they know that can't have everything for free.
Don't mix up member of a community and customer of a company. That's not the same thing.

[The Geek]

I don't think anyone is concerned about the small hacks, it's the hacks that are popular that coders could get away with charging.

So do everything you can to prevent the possability of a commerical idea creeping into a coders head so that you dont have to pay for it? Hear no money, See no Money, Speak no Money :)

This debate is more heated than the 'Tastes Great/Less filling'. The suggestion for a feedback system was to benefit the users.

I would love a system where I could see what the users (who honestly bought the product) thought. Was it worth the money? Was the support good?
Thats one of the things that makes release threads work so well here. Its open feedback! You can quickly tell from feedback on a thread if there are problems, whether its supported or not, what others think... etc. That is worth 10x what the author says about his work.

[yoyoyoyo]

Don't mix up member of a community and customer of a company. That's not the same thing.Well, how about in the case where a prerequisite to becoming a member of the community is to become a customer first :rolleyes: Sure, anyone can sign up but only CUSTOMERS can see the code/files, etc.. It is a community of customers, so it is a bit different... it is not all black/white.

[Osterling]

I would love a system where I could see what the users (who honestly bought the product) thought. Was it worth the money? Was the support good?

Could you not create this on your website for your customers to fill out after they purchase a hack from you, and done business with you.

[The Geek]

Could you not create this on your website for your customers

Sure, but as a Jelsoft customer going through a directory of 3rd party enhancments... I dont want to see what they say about it... I want to see what the community says about it.

Its not a do-or-die... its just what I would look for when I would browse it.

[Revan]

If the hack is popular, why the hell should the coder not be rewarded for his work?
I mean the reason why I work extremely slow on my RPG is because the only reason for me to do so is to learn new PHP tricks. I'm not getting anything back from this community or any other, nor do I see any donations coming my way.
Besides from a reputation that may land me coding jobs, of course.
But still, a few stray jobs here and there aren't going to buy me much.
Im not saying that by making my RPG paid, I will be using $100 notes as toilet paper and use them for lighting cigars, but it would make the years (I use plural as the hack has passed its 1 year anniversary here at the org) I spent on it worth my while.
(Just for the record, given the fact that Ive publically stated in my installer file aswell as in a previous thread on this forum that my RPG will forever remain free, that is how it shall be. I just used it as an example, as it is one of the most extensive mods on this site.)

I can only speak for myself and a few coding mates from this site I have talked to when I say that free === no motivation.
No, the carebear "sharing is reward enough. Free software FTW!" crap ain't gonna cut it.
I don't like to pay for software (be it $5 or $500) any more than any of you, but I have to look at it from a coder's point of view as well.

[Osterling]

*straches head*

From this:
I would love a system where I could see what the users (who honestly bought the product) thought. Was it worth the money? Was the support good?
Thats one of the things that makes release threads work so well here. Its open feedback! You can quickly tell from feedback on a thread if there are problems, whether its supported or not, what others think... etc. That is worth 10x what the author says about his work.

How would you tell that by a directory if the author provides good support?

[cclaerhout]

Well, how about in the case where a prerequisite to becoming a member of the community is to become a customer first :rolleyes: Sure, anyone can sign up but only CUSTOMERS can see the code/files, etc.. It is a community of customers, so it is a bit different... it is not all black/white.

The sign up system is to avoid piracy (french community is still waiting to be reconize as official to have such a tool... :D). Vb.org does't exist to make the Vbulletin's aftermarket service. The community of customers is on vbulletin official website.

[Osterling]

Alright, look at it like this. If all of the vBulletin hacks that were popular over time became all paid hacks this would hurt vBulletin as a company. Because after that happens, vBulletin won't have vBulletin.org to entice new people to purchase the vBulletin software.

See where they are coming from?

[The Geek]

If people could post comments and/or ratings on the directory link then it would provide people with honest feedback.

[Borgs8472]

I'd like to see some sort of directory of paids hacks, simply because I think signatures are a terrible place to advertise hacks and such and I automatically skip over them after a while.

[Wayne Luke]

What if:

1) Commercial Add-ons should not modify code any more than necessary. They should be concentrated on Products and Plugins.
2) There was a certification program that verified that the work was created to vBulletin standards as laid out to the programmer/designer. In order to be listed you would need to be a part of this program.
3) Instead of listing and making commercial hacks available, the listings would be links to the provider themselves.
4) The provider list included Designers, Style sites, Add-on/Extension developers, Hosting Companies and for-hire programmers.

[spence2]

Frankly, I have witnessed too many personality clashes and vendettas on these forums to "trust" that any rating system/feedback would necessarily reflect the quality of any commercial script.
And how in the heck would Jelsoft know if the person commenting actually purchased the software from the 3rd party vendor? And would the vendor be allowed to respond to negative feedback? And does Jelsoft want to play hall monitor?
2) There was a certification program that verified that the work was created to vBulletin standards as laid out to the programmer/designer. In order to be listed you would need to be a part of this program.
Control ... control ... control!

[The Geek]

So you mean a 'certified vB partner' program?

Its an improvement, but may cause as many problems as anything.

Who is going to validate the code?
What about future products?
Future upgrades?
What if a serious security flaw appears AFTER you have given it the gold chaquita bannana sticker?

Im just chuffed theres a constructive discussion about it now :)

Frankly, I have witnessed too many personality clashes and vendettas on these forums to "trust" that any rating system/feedback would necessarily reflect the quality of any commercial script.
And how in the heck would Jelsoft know if the person commenting actually purchased the software from the 3rd party vendor? And would the vendor be allowed to respond to negative feedback? And does Jelsoft want to play hall monitor?

And the LAST thing I want to see is Jelsoft "recommending" commercial products. How unfair would that be to new developers! Why build a better mouse trap if Jelsoft has given it's thumbs-up to my soon-to-be competitor?

(crikey im on a posting roll)

I agree spence... ratings are useless when they can be taken advantage of. Thats why I was trying to brainstorm on a way that only those that purchased could give feedback. Maybe only once.

It was just a thought - I can see the difficulty in it though.

[nexialys]

and what about a Products Reviews system, where a moderator only can post new products listings, and users/clients posts comment over them ?!... if it's the moderator that post new products, nobody would see a favorable advertising...

btw, nobody can evaluate the impact of a solution or another... because nobody have done it here... i know how this was done in other projects, they are dealing with other situations... here we talk about vBulletin... and even different, most of the other projects have a single administration process that manage usually all details... here, we have Jelsoft at vB.COM, and the team here at vB.org that have to deal with different situations...

having a directory or anything else is a Company decision, with some suggestions of the participants... not the opposite.

[Wayne Luke]

And the LAST thing I want to see is Jelsoft "recommending" commercial products. How unfair would that be to new developers! Why build a better mouse trap if Jelsoft has given it's thumbs-up to my soon-to-be competitor?

Jelsoft won't be recommending products. If we were to follow up on this, we would list Providers the fit a particular list of restrictions, some of which could include public releases on this website.. Anyone would be able to become a provider. Think along the lines of the MSP program, thought simpler. You would apply to become a service provider and get the same "thumbs-up" as your soon-to-be competitor if you qualified.

[spence2]

For years, Jelsoft has reaped the benefits of an enhanced feature list based on the "free" donations of it's customers. It's a two-way street here, but the money has always flowed one way. I can hardly think of a more seemingly implausible yet brilliant and successful business plan than that of Jelsoft.

So, now you are asking about requiring a "free" product as a requisite for your "Certification" ... which, you know increase the sales of the annointed.

Why not just let the market place determine the fate of commercial products --- without Jelsoft involving itself in that process? Why does Jelsoft feel it should always flex it's muscle?

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Who is going to validate the code?
Me ofcourse :D :D :D

And the stickers will have the face of Bobfool (a trustworthy looking old man :D )

Sorry just couldn't resist.

[Boofo]

I better get some pics taken then, huh? ;)

[Wayne Luke]

For years, Jelsoft has reaped the benefits of an enhanced feature list based on the "free" donations of it's customers. It's a two-way street here, but the money has always flowed one way. I can hardly think of a more seemingly implausible yet brilliant and successful business plan than that of Jelsoft.

So, now you are asking about requiring a "free" product as a requisite for your "Certification" ... which, you know increase the sales of the annointed.

Why not just let the market place determine the fate of commercial products --- without Jelsoft involving itself in that process? Why does Jelsoft feel it should always flex it's muscle?

My idea has nothing to do with flexing muscle but providing customers with the services and resources they demand. Believe it or not, many of our customers do not want to use this site. They find it chaotic, unresponsive and unhelpful. I am not saying that is true but that is their experience. They would rather we just point them to a list of providers who can fulfill their needs. Now, I can create an arbitrary list of providers with designers, webhosts and programmers and feed this list to the customers who call on the phone every day. Or, I can devise a way to allow longstanding members of the aftermarket community and vBulletin.org to monetize their hard work, receive paid contracts and profit from vBulletin.

It is hardly a one-way street as you said and never has been. There are quite a few companies that exist today because they provide services and/or software for vBulletin. I am just trying to think of a way to make our thousands of customers aware of them so they can make more money. However the history of this community and the aftermarket of vBulletin has already proven that without some control, people will take on more work than they can handle, disappear for months on end without notifying their customers and so forth. We, Jelsoft, need to try and insulate our customers from that and the only way to do that would be a Certified Provider program. It would be a voluntary program if implemented and any requirements would be reasonable with feedback from potential providers going into the program.

You may see that as flexing muscles but I see it as protecting our tens of thousands of customers. And no matter how you slice it, this site exists for the sole purpose of satifying the needs of Jelsoft Customers in expanding vBulletin. It has no other purpose. It is used as a minor sales tool but it isn't a single source largely responsible for sales of vBulletin.

[spence2]

Respectfully, Jelsoft is a company that exists for the sole purpose of making money. That's not a put-down. That's just the objective of any commercial enterprise.

Perhaps up to this point, Jelsoft has focused on programmers/developers ... but there is a whole community of commercial developers who do not code ... they hire people who code.

Now, pretend for a moment that I want to develop a commercial product that would ultimately enhance the sale of vBulletin. I hire a programmer ... and my conversation begins with ... well, first, I must pay you to develop a full-rights script that I can give away. THEN, you have to be "certified" by vB. THEN, we will finally get to the original concept I hired you to develop.

A highly implausible scenario for a commercial developer; would you agree?

[nexialys]

hum, this thread is going to be OT soon... comparing apples with pears is not good... why evaluate the value of Jelsoft on the market, when the goal is to provide a solution for advertising external sources ?!

we just need a way to add external sources to vB.org/.com without being chaotic, that's all...

[The Geek]

Couldnt a certified partner chiquta bob sticker of approval co exist with a directory?

Wayne, what do you feel the pros and cons are of a directory? To me, a list of certified people doesnt tell me that they have something I may be insterested in using for my site. It would be a good list of 3rd party custom developers if I was looking to farm work out... but not as helpful to 'go shopping' with (at least as far as I can see it).

[Wayne Luke]

Now, pretend for a moment that I want to develop a commercial product that would ultimately enhance the sale of vBulletin. I hire a programmer ... and my conversation begins with ... well, first, I must pay you to develop a full-rights script that I can give away. THEN, you have to be "certified" by vB. THEN, we will finally get to the original concept I hired you to develop.

A highly implausible scenario for a commercial developer; would you agree?

I said could require contributions to this site. As a Site Integrator, you wouldn't have a contribution to make much like a web hosting company would not have a contribution to make. Any program created would cover people in the following groups: Designers, Programmers, Site Integrations, Webhosting, Database Administration, and Site Administration. Each would have their own requirements for being certified but not necessarily the same requirements for each group.

You are jumping the gun and putting to much though into the wrong pathways. Besides as a Site Integrator wouldn't you want to hire developers who you knew could get the job done using the vBulletin platform. These developers would not have a learning curve, they would produce faster and more optimized results and they would ultimately make you more money while saving your customers money and headache.

[Wayne Luke]

Wayne, what do you feel the pros and cons are of a directory? To me, a list of certified people doesnt tell me that they have something I may be insterested in using for my site. It would be a good list of 3rd party custom developers if I was looking to farm work out... but not as helpful to 'go shopping' with (at least as far as I can see it).

Honestly don't know at this time. Haven't put much thought into it yet. I think what has to happen first is to organize the existing site here before we can add to it. The staff are working on a really great database interface for searching plugins, hacks and such. So that is the first step. Then there are some ideas to back away a little from the reliance on forums for distributing tutorials and other static information which would be good in my opinion. I am hoping these thing will allow for a reduction in the clutter of the forums and allow ease of use in helping find things that already exist. Then we can really look into ideas for a commercial directory of script addons and styles. I am taking note of the ideas but can't guarantee that they will be implemented. Though having a certified partner program would be a first step towards such a directory because those partners would be the ones to pre-populate it if it is created.

To be honest it is all up in the air right now. However, I feel that if Jelsoft is going to satisfy the needs of the customers we need to start "legitimizing" the commercial ventures out there around our products and introduce those ventures to our customer base. I don't understand the hostility towards commercial enterprises that exists on this site as vBulletin is not an Open Source project and it never was. This site is meant to provide all resources to create a community website powered by the vBulletin Engine. Yes, with 3.5, vBulletin is much more than a mere forum system. It has morphed and evolved into a community website engine where anything is possible on your site and vBulletin.org needs to play a larger role in that over the long term.

[The Geek]

Thanks - makes sense. i think Im getting a clearer picture of Jelsofts direction.

[john1744]

How about a new site? Maybe an offshoot of vb.org, where you could create 3rd party apps. It would be a sister-site of vb.com and vb.org but would also be independant in much the way the current system is. Have a feedback system, but also set up a panel of some of the better coders, and maybe 1 vb.com or vb.org staff member with some free time, to test the code, and certify it for release. Then it could get feedback from the userbase.

[Paul M]

Maybe I missed something, but i thought the whole point of vb.org was for people to share hacks for FREE. I do not believe paid hacks have any place here. Simple as that to me.

[sabret00the]

I disagree. Some of the coders here that are charging for hacks got a lot of their coding skills for free on here. And I don't think charging for what they learned for free is any way to pay back what they've gained.

There are many coders on here that put in just as much time coding (and some even more time) free hacks as those that complain "I just can't do it for free anymore".

If they want to charge for their hacks, then they need to do it somewhere else other than a free, learning and sharing site.

that's like saying if the college i went to needed some stuff made for a radio or tv station (what i learn't at college) i shouldn't charge them, i never had to pay for college as is the rule with Britain and i see no harm in putting my expertise to profit, people have to eat.

On a side not, just like the Service Requests, you shouldn't be able to have your commercial mods listed on here until you've put in so much via the way of free stuff.

[Wayne Luke]

How about a new site? Maybe an offshoot of vb.org, where you could create 3rd party apps. It would be a sister-site of vb.com and vb.org but would also be independant in much the way the current system is. Have a feedback system, but also set up a panel of some of the better coders, and maybe 1 vb.com or vb.org staff member with some free time, to test the code, and certify it for release. Then it could get feedback from the userbase.

We just merged vBulletinTemplates and this site to lower confusion among our customers. While another site is a possibility, it would be much nicer to have a single resource.

[Wayne Luke]

Maybe I missed something, but i thought the whole point of vb.org was for people to share hacks for FREE. I do not believe paid hacks have any place here. Simple as that to me.

Every site must evolve to serve the needs of its visitors. These needs are not being met currently which is why there are half a dozen style sites out there, multiple vBulletin hack resources and a disjointed collection of commercial venture sites. This all takes away from "The Ultimate vBulletin Resource".

[Logikos]

Every site must evolve to serve the needs of its visitors. These needs are not being met currently which is why there are half a dozen style sites out there, multiple vBulletin hack resources and a disjointed collection of commercial venture sites. This all takes away from "The Ultimate vBulletin Resource".

So then buy the name vBulletin-Commerical.com :p

[darnoldy]

Folks-

I don't have a degree in computer sciences, I am not a php programmer, and probably never will be one--and I know that some of you think that disqualifies me from even having an opinion. But, I am a vB customer--I think a more-typical one than the coders--and I do have an opinion.

many of our customers do not want to use this site. They find it chaotic, unresponsive and unhelpful.That was my initial impression--not entirely dissipated.

When I look at other software categories--whith which I am more familiar--Quark comes to mind. QuarkXPress came to dominate its market mostly because of XTensions. Without them, the software was not quite as capable as its major competitor. XTensions allowed it to be easily customized to accomodate niche markets.

Quark (IMHO) has had many assinine corporate policies--the XTension Developer program was not one. The program was easy to join. Quark promoted program members in its literature, it took them to trade shows, it gave them space on its discussion boards, it promoted the hell out of them.

As a result, not only were there many commercial XTension developers, but a community of amateur developers grew and produced many excellent free Xtensions.

Similar things can been seen around Photoshop plugins--commercial products and high-quality amateur (free) products are not mutually exclusive.

As a jelsoft customer, if i want to add to/change the functionality of vBulletin, what are my options:

Study programming and Learn to code it myself--yeh, right!
Ask how to on vB.com--and be told tha modifying source code is not supported and to ask on vB.org
Ask here--and either be told its a stupid idea or be ignored
put in a service request--and have a bunch of people, whose qualification I have no way to evaluate, pm me saying they can do it
discover later that there was a commercial product I could have bought off-the-shelf that wasn't allowed to be discussed here


This place is very insular, and set up in a way that supports the needs of a small community of coders, and not the needs of a larger vB-using community. It needs (IMHO) to be opened up


--don

[jugo]

As already said in the other Thread:
I don't like the idea of having any commercial stuff here, be it a directory or whatever.
If this is going to happen, it might be a hard decision if I am going to stay.
But that is just my personal opinion as a User.


I totally agree.

On the other hand, I think that a directory of the type that The Geek Speaks of, would be better off in the .com site as opposed to here.

[sabret00the]

i think it should be a seperate site vBulletin-xtns.com and it should be a review site of commercial extentions, who runs and maintains is another thing but yeah, theirs many software review sites out there, i think one for vBulletin wouldn't be a bad idea, and if one already exists, just add an official to to the front, give em a free license and call it a day :)

[nexialys]

Folks-I don't have a degree in computer sciences, I am not a php programmer, and probably never will be one--and I know that some of you think that disqualifies me from even having an opinion. But, I am a vB customer--I think a more-typical one than the coders--and I do have an opinion.
No no, best place... you're the one to be heard, because you're the one that would use that database of information after all...

coders have their manners, they can handle complicated content and complicated communities where to discuss and share, but the client is the one to satisfy at the end...

the ones that would disqualify your opinion have no right to be here...

(btw, this is a great opinion!)

[spence2]

Every site must evolve to serve the needs of its visitors. These needs are not being met currently which is why there are half a dozen style sites out there, multiple vBulletin hack resources and a disjointed collection of commercial venture sites. This all takes away from "The Ultimate vBulletin Resource".
I'm trying to follow you logic here. Could you tell me what you envision would be the fate of the sites that you mention if vB.org were to meet the needs of its visitors?

[Wayne Luke]

i think it should be a seperate site vBulletin-xtns.com and it should be a review site of commercial extentions, who runs and maintains is another thing but yeah, theirs many software review sites out there, i think one for vBulletin wouldn't be a bad idea, and if one already exists, just add an official to to the front, give em a free license and call it a day :)

If it were a second site, it would be the place we (vBulletin support staff) would send customers first. With a list of add-ons and providers, we would be reasonable certain their needs would be handled. This site would be relegated to secondary status because of lack of promotion on vBulletin.com except for the links in the forum list. I mean it is in our commercial best interest that customers are satisfied as quickly as possible and for many plug and play commercial extensions will be the answer.

[Wayne Luke]

I'm trying to follow you logic here. Could you tell me what you envision would be the fate of the sites that you mention if vB.org were to meet the needs of its visitors?

I don't envision any fate. Through my idea commercial projects like vBStyles should get more business and be able to produce more products because of it. My idea will have no impact on non-commercial ventures so they will whither or prosper on their own merits. I don't see why it would have any impact. I am not talking about replacing them, just figuring out a way for customers to find them better and so that I have a better solution to common questions than go visit a search engine.

[spence2]

So, ultimately you do not envision independently developed commercial products being downloaded directly from this or an alternative Jelsoft supported site?

[Wayne Luke]

So, ultimately you do not envision commercial products being downloaded from this or an alternative Jelsoft supported site?

At this time I do not. There is no infrastructure to support such a thing. I do envision bringing awareness to commercial endeavors to our customers. If there was the infrastructure for a commercial marketplace, it might be a different story. Such a marketplace would require much more rigorous controls on commercial addons than can be implemented at this time.

[john1744]

What if someone went out on there own and created a vbulletin commercial product database? Would you guys point users thataway?

[Princeton]

A certification program would be a PLUS in my book. :up: I'll be the first to sign-up.
A listing to providers site is all that is needed.
If adding products were allowed, people would just create anything to direct more hits to their site/service/products.
Yep, the listing should include all aspects of running a vb site. Although, I question allowing 'hosting companies' as I can see a flood of 'hosting companies trying to get listed just for the sake of it.
I believe an external site would be a great solution -- the goal (I think) is to provide solutions for customers in a informative way. Adding this option here will just confuse and make things harder for the customer to find what they want in a efficient manner.

[Guest190829]

If you read the other thread, I bought the domain name vbulletincoders.com. Which would be a directory listing on third-party sites offering paid and/or commercial hacks to the members of vb.org. I emailed vbulletin if the use of vbulletin in the domain was allowed, and this was the response:

Dear Danny

Thank you for your e-mail.

For obvious reasons, the use of vBulletin (the word) is a sensitive issue. First and foremost, it is our trademarked product name, so any use of vBulletin (the name) is prohibited. However, there are some exceptions where we have agreed to allow the use of vBulletin (the name) such as vbulletin-fans you have identified.

That said, it appears that the role of vb.org needs to be clarified and I will look into this.

I trust that this is in order, but please let me know if you have any further queries.


So, I really didn't get any of my questions directly answered. I also asked if I weren't allowed to run such a site with the mentioned domain name, why were others allowed? (ie. Floris and www.vbulletin-fans.com)

That wasn't answered either. So, I'm quite dissapointed in the response..

[kall]

So, I really didn't get any of my questions directly answered. I also asked if I weren't allowed to run such a site with the mentioned domain name, why were others allowed? (ie. Floris and www.vbulletin-fans.com)

That wasn't answered either. So, I'm quite dissapointed in the response..
I was given EXACTLY the same response re: vbulletintoolbox.com and vbulletinhandyman.com.

Quite disheartening then to see all the other vbulletin*.com sites that are allowed to flourish (and get onto the BOTM).

See here (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=149345) for more on this.

[Guest190829]

I just found this on vbulletin.com



And no, "vBulletin" trademark is being requested at this time; and no I do not remember/believe he asked permission - but that is not a public discussion, please contact sales [at] vbulletin.com in regards to using "vBulletin" in the domain for a commercial site.



Found here (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137695)

Now I am really confused....would Jelsoft lie to it's customers?

[kall]

I just found this on vbulletin.com



Found here (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137695)

Now I am really confused....would Jelsoft lie to it's customers?

Maybe it's more a case of 'Although he posts as if he does, Floris doesn't actually know everything that is going on'?

That post annoyed me too, because it was Floris that gave me the impression that 'non-commericial' uses of the domain name (like he was doing) were acceptable...so I registered the domains, then was told that it was not.

[Biker_GA]

I read it as the trademark process is ongoing for the name vBulletin. It does take a while for that to go through (upwards of over a year).

[AN-net]

getting back the vb certified thing, maybe a small fee to become ceritifed would be a good idea which would help fund the program and the team that moderate it. it would probably also deter those who really would not be qualified and would waste the moderator/certifiers time. now this certification could apply to developers, vendors, hosts, and softwares. here are some ideas

everytime a software is upgraded it must be resubmitted for certification. a developer/vendor/host would have an annual or periodical certification to make sure they are up to date and following vbulletin's guidelines and standards. if they fail to pass the certification the person's/software's certification is removed. also if a provider is certified they could maybe have access to customer emails such as vb.org to verify purchases and prevent unlicensed people from downloading their software. this of course is up to jelsoft and their team.

[Wayne Luke]

Jelsoft hasn't lied. vBulletin is a trademark, it is not a registered trademark. In the United States and the United Kingdom, you do not have to register a trademark for it to be valid. You only have to use. A registered trademark on the other hand has more enforcement value behind it. Being from another country Floris might not know this and his statements are a case of not investigating further before posting.

Personally, I think all the names with vBulletin in them, including vbulletin-fans.xxx et al., are confusing to the customer and should be shut down. They produce commercial instability in the marketplace and diminish the value of the vBulletin brand. Until trademark registration has been followed through with though, it can be difficult to do so though. And yes, I do realize that I own a vBulletin domain for a particular project.

[Princeton]

I believe a "vBulletin Certification" would be enough.

Checking software would amount to a lot of work and would imply that "vbulletin" has checked software for bugs, etc -- which may lead to a liability issue down the road. I don't think they will go this route.

It's better being safe than sorry. Plus, the resources could be used "in-house" to further enhance the company's products/services/etc.

[GoTTi]

hmm well from what you guys are now talking about is the domain name point of things....

floris has in his signature on vb.com 4 sites with the vb lingo,

vBulletin Fans "Language" Site @ http://www.vBulletin-Language.com/ [unofficial site]
vBulletin Fans "Fans" Site @ http://www.vBulletin-Fans.com/ [unofficial site]
vBulletin Fans "Tutorials" Site @ http://www.vBulletin-Tutorials.com/ [unofficial site]
vBulletin Fans "Style Demo" Site @ http://www.vBulletin-Style.com/ [unofficial site]

all have vbulletin names in them and all say unofficial. domaina can be owned by anyone. u cant trademark a internet domain name. thats how alot of companies that register domains stay in business, by buying up possible domain names. for instance, www.mikerowesoft.com. this was from a kid, who happend to have the name Mike Rowe, and decided to make that domain name, and m$ got fumed, tried to take it from him and lost. from what happend though, i think Mike got a lifetime membership to their programmer site and schooling and training to not market the name or some junk...i dunno. whatever it was, m$ was not able to get the site from him.

[Andreas]

u cant trademark a internet domain name.
You can, at least in Germany.

[Wayne Luke]

for instance, www.mikerowesoft.com (http://www.mikerowesoft.com). this was from a kid, who happend to have the name Mike Rowe, and decided to make that domain name, and m$ got fumed, tried to take it from him and lost. from what happend though, i think Mike got a lifetime membership to their programmer site and schooling and training to not market the name or some junk...i dunno. whatever it was, m$ was not able to get the site from him.

Actually, there is legal justification and use of a trademark in a domain name is valid. Microsoft lost this case because:

1) It was the person's legal name. In the United States, legal surnames trump trademarks.

2) It was deemed dissimilar enough not to create commercial confusion. In order to enforce trademark violation, the entity whose trademark is being used incorrectly must prove that the use is causing them financial losses. Mikerowesoft.com was not causing documentable financial loss. If he had been peddling his own version of a Linux desktop called "Doors" (Open the Doorways to the imagination), then he would have lost.

To find proof of case #2, you only have to look at Lindows. A linux distribution purported to be as easy to use as Windows. Microsoft sued them for similarity of trademark and they were forced to change their name. Trademark is the entire basis of every anti-domain squatting law in the United States and Europe.

[bigcurt]

Jelsoft hasn't lied. vBulletin is a trademark, it is not a registered trademark. In the United States and the United Kingdom, you do not have to register a trademark for it to be valid. You only have to use. A registered trademark on the other hand has more enforcement value behind it. Being from another country Floris might not know this and his statements are a case of not investigating further before posting.

Personally, I think all the names with vBulletin in them, including vbulletin-fans.xxx et al., are confusing to the customer and should be shut down. They produce commercial instability in the marketplace and diminish the value of the vBulletin brand. Until trademark registration has been followed through with though, it can be difficult to do so though. And yes, I do realize that I own a vBulletin domain for a particular project.


I know I dont have much a say in this but I would have to respectfully disagree, vbulletin-fans is a great place for people who love vBulletin like myself to chat about anything involved with vBulletin ( other than code modifications ) I am glad floris opened that and it is a great site and I would very much hate to see it get closed down by ANY reason, other than personal reasons made by floris. I understand it can sometimes confuse people but it is hard to confuse vbulletin-fans with vbulletin.com where to buy a license at :p.


~Curt
Once again I do this out of respect, just had to voice an opinion and I DONT want to get offtopic so this is the last thing Iwill say about it :).

[GoTTi]

okok so back to the main topic here then. enough with .com rules and mumbo jumbo.

we're tryin to establish here whether commercial hacks should be allowed. Wayne, thanks for takin time to input us from the vb staff side. can u ask the rest of the group to put their cents on this so we can all discuss the right situation here?

[Guest190829]

okok so back to the main topic here then. enough with .com rules and mumbo jumbo.

we're tryin to establish here whether commercial hacks should be allowed. Wayne, thanks for takin time to input us from the vb staff side. can u ask the rest of the group to put their cents on this so we can all discuss the right situation here?

I don't think that is going to happen. This affects Jelsoft as a business directly, so it's going to be their decision/opinions that matter in the end, not ours.

[sabret00the]

If it were a second site, it would be the place we (vBulletin support staff) would send customers first. With a list of add-ons and providers, we would be reasonable certain their needs would be handled. This site would be relegated to secondary status because of lack of promotion on vBulletin.com except for the links in the forum list. I mean it is in our commercial best interest that customers are satisfied as quickly as possible and for many plug and play commercial extensions will be the answer.

so ultimately it would be in the best interest of jelsoft to do this in the same way as vbulletin.org, i.e. establish the userbase in an unofficial capacity to the point of being the unofficial-'official' resource and then applying for sisterhood/official status?

Personally, I think all the names with vBulletin in them, including vbulletin-fans.xxx et al., are confusing to the customer and should be shut down.
i actually agree, the url's suggest officiality. and allowing another company to thrive on your trademark in such a way just isn't good business sense lol.

saying that, i hate/detest the fact that vbulletin-germany.com is not vbulletin.dr (or whatever the german domain is). and that vbulletin-china.com isn't vbulletin.ch

[spence2]

What I'm waiting for is consistency and an assurance that any certification process would be free of favoritism. That is why the domain issue is on-point.
On the one hand: here are the rules.
And on the other hand: "we" are exempt from following them.

[Adrian Schneider]

Maybe I missed something, but i thought the whole point of vb.org was for people to share hacks for FREE. I do not believe paid hacks have any place here. Simple as that to me.

I mostly agree, it is not up to Jelsoft to setup a website for others to pay for modifications to their product. I believe a simple listing (along with a user rating system perhaps?) would suffice.

[AN-net]

I mostly agree, it is not up to Jelsoft to setup a website for others to pay for modifications to their product. I believe a simple listing (along with a user rating system perhaps?) would suffice.
yeah but a rating/review system would prove nothing as we see with Amazon and many other shopping sites. the company/producer goes on and writes a good review for the software/book/whatever even though its completely bias.

[The Geek]

yeah but a rating/review system would prove nothing as we see with Amazon and many other shopping sites. the company/producer goes on and writes a good review for the software/book/whatever even though its completely bias.

Thats why I was suggesting that only somone that purcahses an item should be able to rate it. THat way you get away from squiffed results.

Sad thing is that I guess it would be too complicated to do (though I would argue that).

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Thats why I was suggesting that only somone that purcahses an item should be able to rate it. THat way you get away from squiffed results.
What would keep a company from 'buying' there own products, so they can leave a rating? It will not cost them anything, since they make the payment to themself.

[Adrian Schneider]

A rating system IMO should be a small part, we should focus on a simple listing first. If you are worried about a rating thing (which can obviously be abused) leave it out. People can go look at the product themselves and decide for themself.

[KW802]

After having read all 7 pages of this thread....

Any type of "rating" or "comment" system would be a horrible, horrible, horrible idea. Just do a search for phrases like "portal suggestion" or "gallery suggestion", both here and at vb.com, and you can see what starts out innocently enough turns into a ugly mess. :eek: Not to mention that fact that it would introduce a factor of liability for Jelsoft if somebody was to leave false and/or libelous feedback about a product or service.

- Having a 3rd party directory of products & service providers is a good idea.

- Having either a Jelsoft certification process or a Jelsoft program that charges a fee (kind of like a "Jelsoft Partners Program") to prevent obvious spamming of links is a good idea.

- Having the directory on one of the existing vB.xxx sites is a good idea.

- Having any type of rating or comment system is a very bad idea. :paranoid:

Somebody mentioned a product like vBa Links would serve the job... I agree, as long as the rating and comments options were turned off. :ermm:

[spence2]

A simple listing of 3rd party services need not be so complicated! All that would be required is a simple disclaimer stating that Jelsoft is not affiliated and does not warranty products/services available on this list.

It's not rocket science!

Now, certification is a different thing ... with all sorts of implied warranty issues. Let's say XYZZ is certified by Jelsoft and produces a script that later is revealed to have security issues. If that script has caused anyone severe financial or other losses, it is not unreasonable to believe that Jelsoft could find itself in a legal quagmire based on it's certification (implied warranty) of XYZZ.

Why make a simple thing so all-fired complicated?

[Wayne Luke]

yeah but a rating/review system would prove nothing as we see with Amazon and many other shopping sites. the company/producer goes on and writes a good review for the software/book/whatever even though its completely bias.

IN your example. Amazon clearly differentiates between Publisher/Editor/Critic comments and general public comments. In Amazon's case, they contact the publisher for a synopsis of the product when they post it. This sells products.

Customer reviews are listed separately and moderated.

[AN-net]

IN your example. Amazon clearly differentiates between Publisher/Editor/Critic comments and general public comments. In Amazon's case, they contact the publisher for a synopsis of the product when they post it. This sells products.

Customer reviews are listed separately and moderated.
yeah but we all know that some of those reviews are fake>_>

[KW802]

Now, certification is a different thing ... with all sorts of implied warranty issues. Let's say XYZZ is certified by Jelsoft and produces a script that later is revealed to have security issues. If that script has caused anyone severe financial or other losses, it is not unreasonable to believe that Jelsoft could find itself in a legal quagmire based on it's certification (implied warranty) of XYZZ.You're assuming too much. Just because Jelsoft "certifies" that a script (or service or anything else) goes by it's standards it doesn't assume the liability if anything goes wrong with it. It's just like Microsoft certified partners or any other companie's "Certified Partners" programs.... if the partner gets in trouble Microsoft (or whatever company) has nothing to do with it.

Personally I like the idea of either a certificiation process or at least a fee based partnership program (eg: like with Microsoft where if you become a certified partner you can display their logo, etc.) because it'll help to seperate the partners who are just trying to make a quick buck from a quickie hack versus the people who are running a business.

[spence2]

You may be totally correct. I'm sure that Jelsoft's lawyers will best advise them.

[Corriewf]

I am not gonna read the past comments as I just dont have time.

I was under the assumption that THIS site was not ran by Jelsoft. Jelsoft can not have the best of two worlds...Thats not how things work. If they want to dictate this site or be affiliated then they have to assume the liability thats involved with doing so. They are currently not accepting liability for any actions on this site nor do they support a board utilizing the hack(s) found here......

If Jelsoft wants to make the rules here of no listings of paid hacks then they need to assume liability for this site.

[Adrian Schneider]

I am pretty sure that this site IS ran by Jelsoft.

[Wayne Luke]

I am not gonna read the past comments as I just dont have time.

I was under the assumption that THIS site was not ran by Jelsoft. Jelsoft can not have the best of two worlds...Thats not how things work. If they want to dictate this site or be affiliated then they have to assume the liability thats involved with doing so. They are currently not accepting liability for any actions on this site nor do they support a board utilizing the hack(s) found here......

If Jelsoft wants to make the rules here of no listings of paid hacks then they need to assume liability for this site.

Jelsoft does own and operate this site and no we do not have any legal obligation to support any code on this site. The site is maintained by volunteers.

The individual developers are responsible for supporting their work, if they choose to do so. Modifications to the vBulletin code are "at your own risk" as stated in the vBulletin License Agreement. The alternative is to not allow modifications to vBulletin at all. That is something we do not want to do.