vB Auto Linker banned here?

[GoTTi]

hey i dunno what happend, but i read that the geek got his addon here removed cuz eventually it was gunna be moved to a paid for modification (possibly)...

whats that about?

that sucks IMO. this guy creates us hacks and addons for our communities. great addons alot of us use, and if he wants to make a buck or 2 he shouldnt be penalized for it by us or moderated!!!!!he does alot for this community. a good asset here. a user that contributes enough info here to write his own messege board and he gets repaid by being put out by a community he's been kind of enough to lay his hat down in and help others???????

what the hell? thats garbage! his auto link hack for 3.5 should absouloutely be allowed to be placed here for 3.5 in BETA mode so he can work out possible problems. maybe he wont charge people to use it, who knows....but even if he did he should be allowed to get users help on it since he is supplying us with it in the first place in beta mode.

[Brad]

The script was not 'banned'.

The script was a beta version of commercial software, meaning at some point all users of it would have to pay to countine running it. This is known as "baiting and hooking".

We do allow lite versions of commercial software (beta or otherwise) asuming they are free. This was not the case with this script thus it was removed after we discussed the issue with the author.

[Erwin]

If the free beta was to be kept here as a free "lite" version even after the commercial full release comes after, then it would have been allowed, but my understanding after speaking to the author is that when the commercial full release comes out, the free beta was going to be removed.

After discussion between the staff and with Jelsoft representatives it was felt that vBulletin.org is not the right place for companies to beta-test their commercial products.

This is in no way a reflection of how great a vB.org member the author is - The Geek is a fantastic coder and a great guy, and his hacks are appreciated by many. However, this site is in the end owned by Jelsoft, a company, and there are strict rules regarding 3rd party commercial software. I hope members understand this.

[ConqSoft]

It's no different than vBadvanced.com. Brian offers CMPS, which is free, and is allowed here on vb.org. His two paid scripts are only available on his site though.

[Andreas]

Right, but there are no Gallery or Links Directory Releases here.
It would have also been OK if the Beta stayed here as a Lite Version after the Final commercial Version is released - but that was apparently not the case.

[The Geek]

Sorry, but im confused. Are you saying that if I left it as a beta then it would be fine?

Thanks

[Erwin]

If you leave a free "lite" version once the full version comes out, it would be fine. Obviously, if it's a free "beta" of a "lite" version, it should probably be fine as long as the bugs can be fixed. Our rules spell it out. In your case, you stated that you were going to remove the "free" version once the full version comes out - that would be against our rules.

[The Geek]

So if I left the beta package and didnt take it down. Even though it was a beta with bugs - then that satisfies the rules?

I dont know how I feel about leaving broken software up for people to access even stating that its beta. I would love to offer lite versions - however that cant be done until the real ones are gold so its a bit of a catch 22!

Oh well, heres hoping Jelsoft comes up with a way forward for providing their customers an avenue for becoming aware of commercial enhancements. I would have saved over £150 if I would have known about vbAdvanced gallery before buying others.

Thanks

[spence2]

What if someone offered a free "limited" version of their commercial product?

.

[amykhar]

Even if a free version is supplied, it's my understanding that you can't link to the gold version directly. Of course, anybody with half a brain would just use google to find the gold version - which could improve your customer base a bit because at least you'll only get the percentage of members here who know how to use a search function ;)

Amy

[spence2]

I have frequently noticed hackers directing support for their free hacks to another site. So, this is allowed, correct?

Assuming, of course, that support is available where they are directed.

[AN-net]

i believe to resolve that issue of taking support off site, vb.org created the "Premium Modification" Forums.

[BamaStangGuy]

I personally think it would be better if vb.org would allow for the distribution of commercial products within this site.

But thats me

[yoyoyoyo]

So, where The Geek made a mistake was in being honest?!? He could have just planned to do a paid hack all along, but not said anything, and then removed or changed the hack to a "lite" version at the time it went commercial, but instead he was honest and stated up front that it was a beta for a commercial program. I guess that shows what honesty will get you.

[bigcurt]

I personally think it would be better if vb.org would allow for the distribution of commercial products within this site.

But thats me


See the problem with that is though man, is that Jelsoft is a company, vbulletin.org is owned by jellsoft..you cant allow sales of commercial products on another businesses page. ALTHOUGH, I do not see a big deal in making a beta version and then saying here you guys can use the beta but the real version will cost..you see what I am saying? Just leave a link in your sig to it and be done with it and if people want the actual version than ok, or just wait for a lite version..that geek I think said he was going to release..nothing wrong with that :).



~Curt

[The Geek]

Well, hopefully this situation may give Jelsoft more reason to look into a system that satisfies the needs of their customers a little better. Im not saying the system as it is totally sucks - though it was a real bummer to go through getting a major work up only to have it brought straight down for being honest and upfront about it. What I am saying is that I think its time for a change and a better solution.

Jelsofts stance now means that all the pirates now have pretty much full access to my scripts. Er, heck... who am I kidding? Pirates dont really often pay for things now do they ;)

If Jelsoft supported its commercial authors that would only make way for better enhancments for vB. I for one could have saved a lot of money if I didnt have to take luck of the draw when it came to buying commercial add ons. Going 'shopping' for vB is made a black art by Jelsoft refusing to give voice to commercial coders. And I mean - come on... its not like anyone is running a full time business doing it. If anyone relies soley on making enhancments for vB for income - ill munch my hat. Most people do it because they simply can not afford not to charge something for their time.
Ive done it totally FOC here for quite some time - as much as I wish it wernt true - I literally can not do it anymore.

Thanks to those that have given support. Especially to Erwin and Kirby. Sorry I was in such a fowl mood last night. I appreciate your understanding.

Anyway. Now lets hope something positive comes from this. After all, I dont code for money, I code for installs :)

BTW: I will eventually try to get stripped down lite versions here, however my focus has to be on the full blown ones first which will take awhile.

Thanks again.

[Andreas]

This is just my personal opinion, but I would not want to have any commercial stuff here.

[The Geek]

This is just my personal opinion, but I would not want to have any commercial stuff here.

I dont think vb.org needs to house commercial scripts. I agree that it would be more of a mine field than not.

What I would like to see is something like a directory of commercial scripts where users can rate and comment on the price, quality, support, etc... These are essentials that would help Jelsoft customers make more informed decisions about purchasing 3rd party scripts. It is a service that would benefit customers so I am sure its a service that could be looked into.

Just my thoughts anyway :)

[AN-net]

maybe a vbulletin seal of approval?

[The Geek]

Would be cool - however the logisitics of something like that (and the polotics) would kill it dead.

Im still keen on a directory unless someone can come up with plausible reasons why it wouldnt work.

[spence2]

The only directory I can see Jelsoft developing is to sell it's own commercial versions of the most popular hacks here. IPB has lead the way with it's own Gallery, Blogs, etc.

Jelsoft is a business, folks. And the goal of everything they do/don't do is to make money (including our beloved vB.org).

[FleaBag]

I think the directory is a good idea. I'm a bit of a fan of paid hacks - don't get me wrong free ones are great - but paid hacks allow a new level, and in my experience a great level of support [e.g. Brian and Zack @ vBA]. I've bought everything on vBAdvanced, and now finding The Geek's site I intend to buy all the hacks there... They are valuable additions to my site! A directory would be a great idea, as The Geek says, for regular BB owners like me to access great software I wouldn't otherwise know about. Perhaps hack authors could even make a donation to charity to be allowed to list their hack here? A rating system for the directory would be great also - I know lots of people have been ripped off by indie vB sites in the past - many because they simply weren't allowed to discuss the sites in detail here and never had a chance to be told any different - an official directory would certainly thwart the cowboys - if they aren't allowed in [or are slated in] a directory - you'd know to steer clear!

Obviously it'll come down to Jelsoft's decision and I won't argue with that however it goes - but all points brought up thus far I must admit are valid. It's a tough call!

[bigcurt]

Well I am not "for" paid hacks but I totally understand if an author works on a hack for soo long, they want atleast a sort of incentive for it, and me myself I dont think a directory would be that bad, and it would leave further enhancements of vB.

~Curt

[Corriewf]

If all parties agree then whats the point of this thread. The Geek, just throw a few free hacks on a site with your paid hacks and that is it... You are always releasing new hacks so from now on just link it like vbadvanced.....


Thank you for your hacks The Geek, you have made vbulletin a more feasible bulletin software choice. :)

[KidneyBoy]

vb.org calls itself the "Ultimate VB Resource". How can this be if there's no way for members offering "premium" scripts the ability to get the word out. It sounds like vb.org would just be a "Resource" and not what I would call "Ultimate".

Yes there are some people that offer "premium" products. So have a forum dedicated for them so at least the end-users of vBulletin can have knowledge that a script/modification is available. the end-user still has the option of buying or not buying the product. Just like the end-user has the option of downloading or not downloading modifications from here.

I know I don't have a voice (because I haven't got vB yet) but this would really be something I would like to see.....Especially if you are calling yourselves the "Ultimate VB Resource".

*DROPS 2 cents into the vB.org bucket*

-KidneyBoy

[GoTTi]

i dont agree with the rule that "commercial" addons created by anyone here shouldnt be allowed. thats just redicoulous. if we can put a paypal link in our threads requesting donations for it, whats the difference?

also, IMO, vb.com is then acting like the 50 cent of gunit. eating all the cake. they put hacks and addons released here in their versions of vbulletin and EARN off that. the quick reply options and the enhanced modes, lots and lots of things we as hackers (even though i create junk hacks), but we create them and they implement them in use for their upgraded versions of the board. is that fair to the authors? do the creators get payment from releasing hacks that are now implemented inside vbulletins software? NO. why is that ok?

the idea of creating the hack is what is of value, and if someone decides to release it is a paid addon then thats their business and we as a community here should honor thier decisions and support their decisions.

[Brad]

also, IMO, vb.com is then acting like the 50 cent of gunit. eating all the cake. they put hacks and addons released here in their versions of vbulletin and EARN off that. the quick reply options and the enhanced modes, lots and lots of things we as hackers (even though i create junk hacks), but we create them and they implement them in use for their upgraded versions of the board. is that fair to the authors? do the creators get payment from releasing hacks that are now implemented inside vbulletins software? NO. why is that ok?

This logic is flawed.

Sure the features a hack adds may find its way into the source code, but it's not the same code.

You speak as if they come here and copy/paste code into the source.

There have been a few things 'donated' to the source code, overgrow's karma hack comes to mind. But keep in mind that it is not his code you see in the source code, one of the vBulletin developers sat down and wrote it.

i dont agree with the rule that "commercial" addons created by anyone here shouldnt be allowed. thats just redicoulous. if we can put a paypal link in our threads requesting donations for it, whats the difference?

There is a big difference between having a donate button in a hack thread and linking to a commercial script or posting a copy of it that would be removed after it was bug tested.

We wouldn't allow photopost to come here and release a beta version only to pull it later on. If we made an exception for the 'little guy' we couldn't stop the people that really do intend on exploiting this place and its members.

The staff has been discussing this issue for some time but there are strong feelings on both sides and it's not something that we can just change over night. I encourage you guys to keep discussing this but please try to do it in a constructive manner.

[GoTTi]

my logic is flawed? maybe in your eyes, but im looking @ it from the little guys side.

and if i remember when i talked to shabang from overgrow cuz he was coding on my site also since we have simular sites, he mentioned that vb was gunna use his code for the karma addon and he did get a nice spot in the "vBulletin Developers & Contributors" part of the admincp. i dont think he mentioned getting funds for doing that addon though. and if he didnt doesnt really matter much. if one of the vb dev's sat down and wrote the code for the forum themselves, then the idea of shabangs karma hacks was there then. his data, code, and information he put time into was there. it might have been free, but it was there. so whose to say that maybe if geek wanted his addon on here for testing, and he decided to not charge anyone for it and just leaqve it here, you guys wouldnt implement it into future versions of vb? using the cart capabilities since there isnt any cart for vbulletin that comes preinstalled, and i would think this kind of addon would be a huge addon for the forum because it adds a whole new world to the software that we are all already wound up in enjoying.

his addon shouldve remained on here for a beta period, and then he shouldve been contacted about it being commercial or paid for or however we wanna word it, and then he couldve decided if he wanted to release maybe a version with less options on the cart? or have it linked to his site like some modifiers do here and then offer support on their personal forums, like vBa does.

this conversation should continue, your right. the vb.com staff should def hear our opinions on this matter.

[Guest190829]

A directory like the Geek stated would solve this problem. It will keep everyone happy, and furthermore, it wouldn't interfere with Jelsoft as a business.

To use the members of vb.org as little guinea pigs in a commercial hack is obviously wrong. :)

[Brad]

his addon shouldve remained on here for a beta period, and then he shouldve been contacted about it being commercial or paid for or however we wanna word it, and then he couldve decided if he wanted to release maybe a version with less options on the cart? or have it linked to his site like some modifiers do here and then offer support on their personal forums, like vBa does.

The author was contacted by a staff member and it was our understanding that he intended to remove the files once he had finished beta testing the modification. Free 'lite' versions (or beta versions of lite versions) are allowed, but this site should not be used for beta testing of commercial software.

[GoTTi]

ynot? look. its our choice as subscribers, paying members, hackers, modifiers, what ever we are on here that are able to download these attachments to help this guy make his hack. i am a beta test on his site, and im helping him make this addon with a smile cuz i know that this hack has very big potential for not just my site but hundreds of other sites that run vbulletin. we are the paying customers here. he is a paying customer. its our choice if we choose to help him with beta testing, and since this is the addon world for vbulletin, supported by vb, offered as a extra service by vb with our licenses, then it should be our choice to help him beta test...thats the whole purpose of the beta test process. and we all KNOW he is gunna charge for this addon, maybe, who knows, he might change his mind, but as of right now, this option can make sites money so why shouldnt he?

its like a controlling situation. theres a matter of control on this addon here that is getting taken to far. like with the hosted forums addon that was here that got removed because it bends the policy we agree to by hosting forums. it ads a whole new world to the vbulletin layout, the purpose of the forum, the design, the idea of expanding sites beyond possible imagination, and what happens? it gets removed because the idea is to allow people to have their own custom forums without actually purchasing the forum from vb. well yea i see the infringment, the work around vb's license agreement to that hack, but to something like this, no. especially being in beta mode, no. this community should absouloutely offer its support to anyone with valid licenses offering to expand this community in its design, code, and services its offering. and that store that he is creating needs support on it. hes creating and taking time to create something that can benefit us all, and not one person, rule or not, should moderate that because he might get a 10$ paypal payment sent to him for the purchase of this addon.

and im lost in the idea of commercial software. this script and code is all opened source. the php is open source code, all the writing and data is opened source. all of it is available online to use for whoever. so how do we categorize it as opened source, free or commercial? he offered this hack on here for users with valid license users, users that have paid vbulletin for their software and all he is doing is modifying it, expanding the forum capabilites, and he wants to make a buck on it. its no big deal, and its far from commercializing.

[Guest190829]

I just bought vbulletincoders.com. I plan to use a modified version of my vbspace script along with vbavanced Directory as a method to advertise Coders with commercial sites and commercial hacks. Along with their profiles will be a rating system, testimonials, etc...etc...This will keep Jelsoft out of it. If you have any suggestions PM me.

Also if the domain name shouldn't be in the post, then a mod can remove it. I'm not too sure.

[KidneyBoy]

We wouldn't allow photopost to come here and release a beta version only to pull it later on. If we made an exception for the 'little guy' we couldn't stop the people that really do intend on exploiting this place and its members.

The staff has been discussing this issue for some time but there are strong feelings on both sides and it's not something that we can just change over night. I encourage you guys to keep discussing this but please try to do it in a constructive manner.

Has the staff even considered what the end user wants? Have they even asked if the end-users have a strong opinion? Does that even have any weight on the decision, or does the staff feel that the end-users have no clue what we/they are saying?

Having a separate forum has been brought up a few times, and it seems like it's being ignored. I don't see what the problem is with creating a forum that is labelled "COMMERCIAL MODIFICATIONS/PLUG-INS" in which the user can use their own judgement either to participate in a beta trial (or not), or at least let the end users know what they are working on, (description of the MOD or addon, as well as information on how to purchase/download it). I believe that most everyone on here just wants a site where they can locate what they are looking for, or randomly fall on something that they feel would be value-added to their boards. In the end it's the USER'S choice to buy the mod/addon if they want it. Nobody's making them do that. Also, you mention that letting the "little guy" post their hacks, then you'd have to let anyone else.......Well two points:

Firstoff, WHO CARES? If it's something that adds value, I don't care if it came from one person or a company of 100. Hell if Microsoft wanted to release some sort of a kickass mod/addon to vBulletin, I would want to know about it and make my own judgement call on adding it or not. If The Geek releases something, ditto. Why should we have to visit 100 different sites just to mod a board, when this site is capable of providing "The Ultimate vb Resource" (as you guys have in your tag line)? Several possible mods/addons might not be found that could really enhance a site. All because Jelsoft decides to make it a policy not to post about "commercial" mods/plugins. Again, let's think about the end-users.

Nextoff, hell you (Jelsoft) run your own site. If you don't want a "big" developer/company to showcase their mods/addons here, then don't let them. Hell I've repeated the following line SEVERAL times: "This site is a privledge, not a right. The administration will determine what content will be allowed and not allowed." But with this thought, still keep the end user in mind.

[spence2]

Sorry, Danny.VBT, but according to vBulletin.com, you are not allowed to use the word "vBulletin" in your domain name if your website generates any revenue. They say it infringes on their trademark. :squareeyed:

And, no, I ain't kiddin'.

[Guest190829]

I won't be recieving any revenue.....it will be a nonprofit website. Can anyone tell me if this is still allowed?

[spence2]

This post is to the point (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=149345) ... although "clear as mud"!

[Guest190829]

Yeah I was just looking at that thread. But what about vbulletin-fans.com and that whole bunch of site run by floris. He specifically says they are unofficial sites, why can't I do the same?

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Members are already allowed to put a lot of information in their signatures. Even with the restriction of commercial language (the best, etc...) you can do a lot to let other members know what you are offering and where to get it. So in my opinion a lot of the arguments in this thread are already covered.

There is already a long time a discussion going on between Staff on ways to improve vb.org by offering information about commercial modifications. Beside the discussion if we should allow it at all, most time goes into discussing in what form we could put this. There are a lot of angles to look at this, and because of this it will not be a fast discussion. We do listen to our members and we are considering ideas, but they will only be implemented (if at all) after we had a good look at it from all sides.

[spence2]

@danny.VBT
You could try asking them ... but, as you can see, I already tried.

Maybe you'll have better luck than I did!

[Marco van Herwaarden]

This post is to the point (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=149345) ... although "clear as mud"!I don't see any reply by a Jelsoft official taking an official stand on this.

PS I think Floris did ask Jelsoft for permission before using those domains.

[Guest190829]

Yeah, I'll ask them. It'd be pretty wierd if I wouldn't be able to when there are domains out there not run by jelsoft that contain the name vbulletin.

[spence2]

That thread began with the question ... and was posted on Aug 3rd 2005, 8:17am ... clearly, Jelsoft has chosen for 20 days not to reply publicly as to why permission was granted to Floris (a VB employee) and Filburt1 (vB org Mod) (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134854) but denied to Kall.

[Guest190829]

Okay, I emailed vbulletin, and hopefully I will get a response.

[Brad]

Nextoff, hell you (Jelsoft) run your own site. If you don't want a "big" developer/company to showcase their mods/addons here, then don't let them. Hell I've repeated the following line SEVERAL times: "This site is a privledge, not a right. The administration will determine what content will be allowed and not allowed." But with this thought, still keep the end user in mind.

We do keep the end user in mind, the whole reason we have been discussing this amongst the staff was due to suggestions made by the users here :). If you guys want to suggest something that is why this forum is here, and our PM boxes are always open if you need something or want to discuss something.

As marco said sometimes it takes awhile before we come to agreement on if something should be changed and how it should be done. Allowing commercial hacks here would be a big change in this site's policy because they have not been allowed for as long as I've been a member here. Again it's simply something that won't happen 'over night'.


and im lost in the idea of commercial software. this script and code is all opened source. the php is open source code, all the writing and data is opened source. all of it is available online to use for whoever. so how do we categorize it as opened source, free or commercial? he offered this hack on here for users with valid license users, users that have paid vbulletin for their software and all he is doing is modifying it, expanding the forum capabilites, and he wants to make a buck on it. its no big deal, and its far from commercializing.

When a script must be paid for to be used it's considered to be commercial software. Although the term 'paid hack' might be better suited to this situation.

Again after discussion with the author it was our understanding that:

1) The author intended to charge for the script once beta testing was over.
2) The author planned to remove the beta version once testing was over
3) There would be no 'lite' version released here once beta testing was over.

Under our current rules this is not allowed, see: www.vbulletin.org/forum/rules.php

3) Lite versions of commercial hacks/scripts may be released here as long as:
a) The lite version is fully functional
b) The lite version is not time limited in any way
c) The lite version is completely free
d) The lite version is stand-alone and completely separate to the full version
e) A link back to the full version is allowed, as long as no price or promotional language is embedded into the lite version.

Simply put: We do not allowed 'paid hacks' to be posted, we allow do allow lite versions of paid hacks assuming they agree with the rules quoted above.

ynot? look. its our choice as subscribers, paying members, hackers, modifiers, what ever we are on here that are able to download these attachments to help this guy make his hack. i am a beta test on his site, and im helping him make this addon with a smile cuz i know that this hack has very big potential for not just my site but hundreds of other sites that run vbulletin. we are the paying customers here. he is a paying customer. its our choice if we choose to help him with beta testing, and since this is the addon world for vbulletin, supported by vb, offered as a extra service by vb with our licenses, then it should be our choice to help him beta test...thats the whole purpose of the beta test process. and we all KNOW he is gunna charge for this addon, maybe, who knows, he might change his mind, but as of right now, this option can make sites money so why shouldnt he?

I agree he did the right thing by letting it be known from the start, no one is trying to label him as a con-man so I apologize if that is how I am coming off. Of course it's your choice to beta test but again the hack in question did not comply with the rules mentioned above.

It's his choice to charge for it, it's your choice to beta test it or buy it but the hack will have to comply with our polices before it can be posted on these forums, it's as simple as that. What I am getting at is us arguing over the status of this modification is going to get us nowhere fast and I have re-stated the reasons why it has been removed many times already.

If you think our policy on commercial hacks should be changed feel free to bring your suggestions to the table.

Also I don't mean to come off as harsh so please don't take it that way.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

will have to comply with our polices
ROFLMAO 'polices' :D :D

[The Geek]

ROFLMAO 'polices' :D :D

classic!


What I am getting at is us arguing over the status of this modification is going to get us nowhere fast and I have re-stated the reasons why it has been removed many times already.


I agree. I think enough on the reasons of why it was removed has been made pretty clear and I respect the admins and mods decisions on it - after all, they have to follow Jelsofts rules. Debating about the removal isnt going to progress the case and I fear may actually turn off the decision makers. This horse has been officially kicked - lets move on to discuss a more constructive angle :)

What I think focus needs to move toward (and a new thread might be in order) is how the community feels the best way forward for introducing paid enhancments. There is obviously a customer demand for it - I hope the Jelsoft can come up with a plan.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

A thread where members can make suggestions on what they would like to see implemented on this subject could be started. Whatever will be posted there will be read and considered.

I doubt however that it will this time an active discussion between Staff and Members, since this topic will touch how Jelsoft is looking at running this side also from a commercial point of view. I think we already got the road we will attempt (let's see if it not backfires) is already pretty outlined among staff and i doubt that many changes will be made on how we want to implement this.

[Brad]

Please see this thread if you would like to countine the discussion of allowing paid add-ons here: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=95048

I am closing this thread because I think it has served its purpose.