To enforce a valid coding style in the community! [Archive]

akanevsky

08-01-2005, 10:05 PM

I have noticed that most of the coders @ vBulletin.org do not follow vBulletin coding standards and / or make a code unnecessarily long with extra queries and other unnecessary stuff like creating code / variables that are already present on a certain vBulletin page... There are only about 4 or 5 coders who follow those standards..

While most of the hacks themselves are great, these coding faults pose security and stability errors, making server load higher than it could be if the code would be optimized. Plus, poorly written code might take more space than an optimized version of the same code.

What I suggest is making a system where we would help people perfect their hacks after which it would be marke as PHP Valid.

It should be no problem for the forum administrators to add a field "QA Verified", editable only by the QA team and the administrators. Once the field is created, allow users to choose from displaying all hacks or only the ones marked as "Containing an optimized PHP".

This way, while the coding style will not be enforced, vB hackers will be encouraged to code properly in order to rate higher and display their hacks better. The best part is, this system is easy to implement (I could help making it), and it would not require immediate validation, which is a plus from the QA team's point of view.

What do ya'll think?

If this works out, I could help creating that system and later be a member of the verification team.

Brad

08-01-2005, 10:14 PM

We already tried this (in a way) with the QA team and it failed. There just aren't enough experanced people with the time to do something like this.

BTW we can't enforce people to code to standard anyway. Take a look at some of the 'experanced' coder's early hacks and you'll see what I mean, everyones ability to code develops over time with the help of others. Enforcing people to code to standard would deny people that option.

Revan

08-01-2005, 10:24 PM

I offer my services as a member of the verification team as well. You remember from the Hack Manual Gen thread that I'm a perfectionist, so I would be one of those 4 or 5 ;) I strive to achieve the standards in terms of coding style, but also actual coding (such as escaping DB values the vB way), templates, phrasing, etc :)
[/advertising to blag his way into the team]

I would applaud such a change, phpBB does it and it works for them, so why shouldn't it work for us?
Coupled with the Hack Database, this would IMO definetely be a huge step towards a better vBulletin coding community as a whole.

The sceptics might say "we can't force people to code a certain way", and while this is true, I fail to see why us hack installers should be forced to either clean up the code, or slowly watch our vBulletin installation buckle from poorly written hacks just because we desire/require the functionality it provides.
The vBulletin Coding Standards not only produce clean, easy to read/customise coding, it makes debugging easier. Imagine a script where an entire foreach() iteration is written on a single line, cramped together, then a parse error occurs. The line # would be the same, yet users (without syntax highlighting editors) would have to break up the line in order to pinpoint the error.
I fail to see a single good reason why these coding standards should continue being as undervalued as they are.

EDIT:
BTW we can't enforce people to code to standard anyway. Take a look at some of the 'experanced' coder's early hacks and you'll see what I mean, everyones ability to code develops over time with the help of others. Enforcing people to code to standard would deny people that option.I disagree.
First of all, the vBulletin Coding Standards are mainly about code formatting. The ability to proper indent code, writing clean code, etc has nothing to do with someone's ability to code. I'm not saying we should get a bunch of Coding Nazis to fine coam each hack making sure they spaced their function arguments properly OR ELSE!!!, but there's a difference between that and some of the manure that Ive seen when looking at hacks.

Oh and just because you tried it before, doesn't mean you don't have new talent to help carry this out NOW. The hack database, as I understand it, was present before. Why not bring back this QA team, at least for a trial run?
The worst thing that can happen is the team being so totally backlogged that they have to give up, at which point the admins can simply disband the team and disable the Moderation (or whatever youll use to delay hack releases), and all is well :)

Chris M

08-01-2005, 10:39 PM

It's not just a case of having the people willing to do it - If I want to code something that doesn't conform to standards, I will - Whether you choose to use it, or modify it to your own standards is up to you :)

Enforcing anything regarding code standards etc is wrong and shouldn't become part of vB.org :)

Satan

Erwin

08-01-2005, 10:41 PM

It's a good idea in theory, but in practice, the problems I foresee are:

1. Discourages beginner hackers from releasing hacks.

2. Delays the release of hacks as presumably hacks won't show up until they are approved.

3. Also, what happens if a hack does not pass? Do you remove it, recode it for them, force the author to recode it? What if the author refuses to recode it and wants to have his own style? Do you basically then disallow the release of the hack?

These are things to consider.

Adrian Schneider

08-01-2005, 10:47 PM

Step 1) Rate the Thread

Step 2) Don't install modifications with low ratings.

Andreas

08-01-2005, 10:50 PM

I see valid points on both sides.
IMHO we can't enforce ppl to stick to certain coding styles, but we can try to encourage them.
Experience seens to be one important thing, so we should try to give newbies as much knowledge as possible.

Maybe smth. like a "quality lable" issued after a Hack has been reviewed would be nice.
This does not have to be mandatory, and thus would not slow down releases etc.
But I think it would encourage ppl. to write well-coded Hacks.

Thread Rating is anonymous and doesn't mean much.
There are Hacks with high ratings which are IMHO terrible (code wise).

Dream

08-01-2005, 11:25 PM

dark visor, you could start with my code, id love to hear some feedback, or with a style guide.

Chris M

08-01-2005, 11:55 PM

But then a Quality Label can be seen as saying that some hacks are better than others, not that their code style is just more in-line with what a group of people think it should be...

Honestly - If a hack is that important to me as it is so good, and the code is poorly done, I re-code it myself - The only people I can see complaining about coding standards are standard fanatics... I'd say over half the people who visit vBulletin.org and install hacks from here rarely care if the code is sloppy - As long as it doesn't bring their site to a halt and does the job they want, they're happy...

It brings into mind the whole catering to the masses arguement - Not many people will care, and those that do take it too far...

While it is good that you are concerned about how code standards drift, merely advising people that their code is sloppy and showing/guiding them how to make it not sloppy will help them become better coders - Slapping a sticker saying "Poor" will defeat the purpose - It will discourage newbies from posting hacks as their coding standards 9 times out of 10 will not be how you fanatics think it should be, and it will also not help them learn - Being told your code sucks and not being told how to make it better is worse than moaning about the code not being up to your standards...

Honestly, all I can see this doing is creating bad feeling, a "division" between coders and eventually tearing a rift in the community...

A few "How-to" guides, helpful suggestions in hack threads and generally aiding the newer (and older) coders (as not everyone is perfect :p) on how to make their code better would be the only sensible course of action...

Satan

akanevsky

08-01-2005, 11:59 PM

What does "QA" stand for? Quality Assurance?.. I dislike the abbreviation.

It discourages beginner hackers from releasing hacks.
I disagree:
The vBulletin coding standards are publically available (http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/codestandards) through the official vBulletin manual and are easy to learn. These standards are basically about proper indentation and proper line breaks. Therefore, they take very little time to learn - to me, it took about 10 minutes to read through the standards section and memorize it.
Beginner hackers do not generally release long hacks. The QA Team, therefore, could easily fix the first few releases of that beginner, but not allow any more releases after a stated amount if the hacker refuses to comply with the standard.
Usually, people hack because they like doing it. If they like doing it, they should be happy to learn how to do what they like more efficiently. If they don't want to learn it - they are not serious about coding and they should not be releasing hacks.

However, this is not likely to work out for the following reasons:
Beginner-level hackers would probably pay no attention to the edits made by the QA team, making the QA's efforts pointless.
Mass fixing of hacks by the QA Team would take too much time, which most of us don't really have.

It delays the release of hacks as presumably hacks won't show up until they are approved.
You are right - they won't show up until they are approved. However, this doesn't really matter. The time coders and end-users waste to solve installation problems that are occuring to unexperienced installation performers will be much longer than the time required to write a valid hack once and for all as well as the time required to install a valid hack without later problems.

Based on above + plus KirbyDE's post, I am rethinking the effectiveness of the above method... However, I'd like to propose another plan, which I am sure can act as a compromisse between the two sides:

On vBulletin.org, hacks have many custom fields ("Installer Included", "Support Provided", etc). It should be no problem for the forum administrators to add a field "QA Verified", editable only by the QA team and the administrators. Once the field is created, make the board display only the Verified hacks by default, with an option to display a complete list of hacks (both verified and non-verified). The option should be visualized as a link in every forum, and it should create a session variable (not a cookie), that would keep the setting as is until the user leaves the forum. Once he\she comes back, it will once again set to only display Verified hacks.

This way, it will feel like that the Verified hacks are positioned above non-verified hacks. While the coding style will not be enforced, vB hackers will be encouraged to code properly in order to rate higher and display their hacks better. The best part is, this system is easy to implement (I could help making it), and it would not require immediate validation, which is a plus from the QA team's point of view.

Let's have a trial run of this sytem!

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:01 AM

Maybe a forum where experienced coders can help answer coding standard questions for others? Thay way no one would fell slighted or small or discouraged for not knowing the standard and having it pointed out to then in public (ie, label/rating system).

Just an idea. ;)

Chris M

08-02-2005, 12:05 AM

What does "QA" stand for? Quality Assurance?.. I dislike the abbreviation.

I disagree:
The vBulletin coding standards are publically available (http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/codestandards) through the official vBulletin manual and are easy to learn. These standards are basically about proper indentation and proper line breaks. Therefore, they take very little time to learn - to me, it took about 10 minutes to read through the standards section and memorize it.
Beginner hackers do not generally release long hacks. The QA Team, therefore, could easily fix the first few releases of that beginner, but not allow any more releases after a stated amount if the hacker refuses to comply with the standard.
Usually, people hack because they like doing it. If they like doing it, they should be happy to learn how to do what they like more efficiently. If they don't want to learn it - they are not serious about coding and they should not be releasing hacks.

However, this is not likely to work out for the following reasons:
Beginner-level hackers would probably pay no attention to the edits made by the QA team, making the QA's efforts pointless.
Mass fixing of hacks by the QA Team would take too much time, which most of us don't really have.

You are right - they won't show up until they are approved. However, this doesn't really matter. The time coders and end-users waste to solve installation problems that are occuring to unexperienced installation performers will be much longer than the time required to write a valid hack once and for all as well as the time required to install a valid hack without later problems.

Based on above + plus KirbyDE's post, I am rethinking the effectiveness of the above method... However, I'd like to propose another plan, which I am sure can act as a compromisse between the two sides:

On vBulletin.org, hacks have many custom fields ("Installer Included", "Support Provided", etc). It should be no problem for the forum administrators to add a field "QA Verified", editable only by the QA team and the administrators. Once the field is created, make the board display only the Verified hacks by default, with an option to display a complete list of hacks (both verified and non-verified). The option should be visualized as a link in every forum, and it should create a session variable (not a cookie), that would keep the setting as is until the user leaves the forum. Once he\she comes back, it will once again set to only display Verified hacks.

This way, it will feel like that the Verified hacks are positioned above non-verified hacks. While the coding style will not be enforced, vB hackers will be encouraged to code properly in order to rate higher and display their hacks better. The best part is, this system is easy to implement (I could help making it), and it would not require immediate validation, which is a plus from the QA team's point of view.

Let's have a trial run of this sytem!

As with my previous post, it creates a rift - Such a system would effectively be the same as slapping a 2nd-rate sticker onto non-QA approved hacks...

Satan

amykhar

08-02-2005, 12:05 AM

One thing to note is that different styles are not always wrong. For example Dark, you went around to many of my mods today making code change suggestions. In many cases, it was a matter of personal style.

My style, except for when I get lazy, was ingrained in me while working at software companies where maintainable, understandable code takes precedence over optimized code. So, while your one-line replacements for my code blocks are appropriate style, they aren't what I'm going for.

My goal is to write code so readable that I stop getting silly requests for minor tweaks. I am working toward instructional and idiot-proof when I post here.

The way I see it, the people who need highly optimized one-liners are people who know how to do it themselves or who aren't trolling around for free code mods here ;)

Also, mods posted here generally tend to be refined over time. Right now, we are in pre-release stages of Vbulletin. Everybody is upgrading over and over again. The emphasis right now is to get the functionality we had before the upgrade and get it fast and bug-free. THEN, we can add features and code refinements.

Chris M

08-02-2005, 12:07 AM

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:18 AM

But then a Quality Label can be seen as saying that some hacks are better than others, not that their code style is just more in-line with what a group of people think it should be...

If labels are important to you, then we can explicitly state "Validated Code", while having a link at an article explaining what this is all about.

Honestly - If a hack is that important to me as it is so good, and the code is poorly done, I re-code it myself - The only people I can see complaining about coding standards are standard fanatics... I'd say over half the people who visit vBulletin.org and install hacks from here rarely care if the code is sloppy - As long as it doesn't bring their site to a halt and does the job they want, they're happy...

It does bring sites to halt (due to a high server load that results in parsing of an unoptimized code), and I can give you some examples. I just don't think it is necessary. "A buck is made up of cents".

Honestly, all I can see this doing is creating bad feeling, a "division" between coders and eventually tearing a rift in the community...

Thay way no one would fell slighted or small or discouraged for not knowing the standard and having it pointed out

You are missing one: there is already a division: "Coder"/"Adv. Coder"/"Master Coder". And yet - there is no tearing of the community. There are, instead, coders who are struggling to get a higher status by making more useful hacks that will be installed by a larger amount of people.

As with my previous post, it creates a rift - Such a system would effectively be the same as slapping a 2nd-rate sticker onto non-QA approved hacks...

Ah.. I see. And the "Coder" and "Adv.Coder" are like slapping a 2nd-rate and 3rd-rate sticker on coders themselves (according to your point of view)?

My style, except for when I get lazy, was ingrained in me while working at software companies where maintainable, understandable code takes precedence over optimized code. So, while your one-line replacements for my code blocks are appropriate style, they aren't what I'm going for.

What I suggested in those posts was my personal preference, rather than a standard. From your perspective, one liners are harder to read, and I agree with you. This easiness-to-read, is, though, exactly what the vBulletin code standard intended for. No need for worries.

However, I'd like to point out that in one of those three posts I pointed out how to remove three (!!) unnecessary queries from the hack. These unnecessary queries are exactly what I'd like to try to avoid. (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=746900&postcount=26)

THEN, we can add features and code refinements.
There is no such thing as "THEN". "THEN" the hacks will be already installed by everyone, and there will be not point in refining the code. Besides, you usually lose interest in older hacks and do not feel like returning to those later on. Esspecially if they are large hacks. It will be just physically impossible to revise them.

--
P.S. Hellsatan, please do not quote whole posts, ok? You are making the thread cluttered and hard to read. Please edit your posts and remove the quotes. Thanks.

Adrian Schneider

08-02-2005, 12:25 AM

You are missing one: there is already a division: "Coder"/"Adv. Coder"/"Master Coder".

# of installs vs people rating your work on quality is very different.

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:27 AM

# of installs vs people rating your work on quality is very different.
Not quality. Validity of the code. And you know what? Quality will come with the validity.

Chris M

08-02-2005, 12:28 AM

If labels are important to you, then we can explicitly state "Validated Code", while having a link at an article explaining what this is all about.

It does bring sites to halt (due to a high server load that results in parsing of an unoptimized code), and I can give you some examples. I just don't think it is necessary. "A buck is made up of cents".

You are missing one: there is already a division: "Coder"/"Adv. Coder"/"Master Coder". And yet - there is no tearing of the community. There are, instead, coders who are struggling to get a higher status by making more useful hacks that will be installed by a larger amount of people.

Ah.. I see. And the "Coder" and "Adv.Coder" are like slapping a 2nd-rate and 3rd-rate sticker on coders themselves (according to your point of view)?

What I suggested in those posts was my personal preference, rather than a standard. From your perspective, one liners are harder to read, and I agree with you. This easiness-to-read, is, though, exactly what the vBulletin code standard intended for. No need for worries.

However, I'd like to point out that in one of those three posts I pointed out how to remove three (!!) unnecessary queries from the hack. These unnecessary queries are exactly what I'd like to try to avoid. (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=746900&postcount=26)

There is no such thing as "THEN". "THEN" the hacks will be already installed by everyone, and there will be not point in refining the code. Besides, you usually lose interest in older hacks and do not feel like returning to those later on. Esspecially if they are large hacks. It will be just physically impossible to revise them.

--
P.S. Hellsatan, please do not quote whole posts, ok? You are making the thread cluttered and hard to read. Please edit your posts and remove the quotes. Thanks.

I will quote what I like thank you - Please do not try and control my own Posting style now...

Labels are wrong, no matter how they are worded...

It brings large sites to a halt - Small sites remain unaffected - Owners of Large sites would usually have the common sense to check the code and optimise it themselves - Assuming they don't, they can usually afford to have someone do that for them - Either way, your arguement is based on a minority of forums having issues with sloppy code...

That is not a division - It is a status - It is like Moderator and Admin - Your user title depicts how many hacks you have released and how many installs they have recieved - If someone were to release the same amount of hacks as me which had a similar number of installs, that would gain them my user title...

The difference between my title and forcing coding standards is that my way the person doesn't have the pressure of fighting against the stigma of it not being optimised to your liking...

If I release a sloppy coded hack, I don't want to have to justify that my hack may be great, but the majority of users will ignore it because they interpret the code as "Invalid" or "Poor" or "It Sucks" or any other way you want to flower it about...

As for everyone installing: That is what the "send update" feature is for - To alert users to new and/or improved versions of hacks...

Satan

Adrian Schneider

08-02-2005, 12:28 AM

Not quality. Validity of the code.

Yes, quality.

Chris M

08-02-2005, 12:29 AM

Not quality. Validity of the code. And you know what? Quality will come with the validity.
Code does not become invalid because you don't like the way it has been coded...

Satan

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 01:40 AM

I will quote what I like thank you - Please do not try and control my own Posting style now...

hellsatan, can I ask you a question: How old are you? It is notable that you simply keep repeating over and over what you have already said. Would you please either participate in the discussion by addressing my points with valid arguments or not say anything at all? Thanks.

A majority of sites do not conform with XHTML1.1/CSS. Therefore, they do not validate to be "Valid XHTML" or "Valid CSS". Presence or absence of those labels on a certain site does not mark the content of that site as being of a "1st or 2nd sort". It just identifies the site as being or not being standards-compliant. There are plenty of sites with a cool content but with a poor code. Same here: "PHP Valid" would identify a hack as being standards-compliant (for those who are interested), while saying nothing about the usefullness of the hack and/or about the author himself.

What it would say, however, is that time has been taken to create a neat code. It would also allow the interested end-users to see the list of PHP Valid hacks.

Code does not become invalid because you don't like the way it has been coded...

This statement is impertinent to the discussion. You are correct, "code does not become invalid because you don't like the way it has been coded". We are, nevertheless, talking about PHP coding. I'd like to point out that there is a charter entitled "vBulletin PHP Coding Standards". The code that "I don't like how it's coded" does become invalid according to those standards. Although these are not commonly accepted PHP standards, they will doubtlessly get there over time. For now, I'd like to express my gratitude to Jelsoft for taking the first step of publicly outlining these standards, and I'd like to encourage everyone to follow that charter. And to help with the encouragement, I'd like the QA team be resurrected. Admins, or whoever is in charge around here, come on and do it!

amykhar

08-02-2005, 01:50 AM

I would much rather see peer support and friendly help than a standards committee. When you drop by my threads and make an improvement suggestion, I consider that team-work and community spirit.

If you form a committee that slaps labels on stuff, it would have a negative connotation to me.

Let's look at WHY people release code here. I release code for three primary reasons.
1. I've done the work anyway, might as well share.
2. I'm giving back because others have helped me
3. I am looking for others to contribute and improve upon my original concept. People use the code in different ways or dream up different features. Sometimes, that makes the code more robust and I benefit from the ideas of others.

BUT there are huge downsides to releasing here as well. We get a lot of people who don't read even the very first post of the thread and then ask the same question over and over. We get people who don't follow install instructions and then yell "bug!". We get people who get ticked off when we don't make all kinds of goofy changes to the code that would benefit nobody but the person who is getting ticked off.

This place needs to be fun and sociable if anybody is going to stick around. Yes, let's improve the code. We can all learn from each other. But, lets do it in a less judgemental way.

Amy

Chris M

08-02-2005, 01:53 AM

hellsatan, can I ask you a question: How old are you? It is notable that you simply keep repeating over and over what you have already said. Would you please either participate in the discussion by addressing my points with valid arguments or not say anything at all? Thanks.

A majority of sites do not conform with XHTML1.1/CSS. Therefore, they do not validate to be "Valid XHTML" or "Valid CSS". Presence or absence of those labels on a certain site does not mark the content of that site as being of a "1st or 2nd sort". It just identifies the site as being or not being standards-compliant. There are plenty of sites with a cool content but with a poor code. Same here: "PHP Valid" would identify a hack as being standards-compliant (for those who are interested), while saying nothing about the usefullness of the hack and/or about the author himself.

What it would say, however, is that time has been taken to create a neat code. It would also allow the interested end-users to see the list of PHP Valid hacks.

This statement is impertinent to the discussion. You are correct, "code does not become invalid because you don't like the way it has been coded". We are, nevertheless, talking about PHP coding. I'd like to point out that there is a charter entitled "vBulletin PHP Coding Standards". The code that "I don't like how it's coded" does become invalid according to those standards. Although these are not commonly accepted PHP standards, they will doubtlessly get there over time. For now, I'd like to express my gratitude to Jelsoft for taking the first step of publicly outlining these standards, and I'd like to encourage everyone to follow that charter. And to help with the encouragement, I'd like the QA team be resurrected. Admins, or whoever is in charge around here, come on and do it!
My age is irrelevant - However, should you care to look at my profile, you will find my birth date...

I am addressing your points, you are merely not looking correctly - Perhaps if you respected me as someone who might have a valid arguement, then you might find those miraculous responses that so far have eluded you... However, since this is a response to you similar to my previous ones, I doubt you will register this either:rolleyes:

There is a difference between XHTML/CSS standards and PHP standards - PHP code being sloppy or invalid does not create rendering issues (unless you use HTML within PHP which is on most counts evil and stupid) in different browsers - You are also talking as if the World Wide Web Consortium and Jelsoft are equal in status - They are not...

Jelsoft are great, but compared to the W3C they are mere specks on the map...

By stating "PHP Valid" as a tag for a QA approved hack, you are therefore implying that the others are not valid - Therefore it is not impertinent to this discussion...

"QA Approved" would imply that the others hacks are bad, incorrect or buggy...

Whatever your status/label/ideal you put to it, there will always be the misconception that those without the status are wrong, bad or not worth looking at, three big and important misconceptions...

This charter is a load of rubbish - They are guidelines - A charter implies law, as in you must code to this standard...

Jelsoft are not PHP - PHP is far bigger than Jelsoft, and you going around tooting Jelsoft's horn and proclaiming they are this, that and the other doesn't make their coding guidelines law, nor does it mean that we have to abide by them...

If you create this QA team, you are going to lose members, and you are going to looe hacks - People will not want to make the hacks to these standards because they are being forced to, and they do not want to have a label stuck on it because someone else is fanatical enough to want a certain standard of code...

And in a final response to your first statement - I will reply to this thread until it is closed voicing my opinions - You cannot and will not silence me, nor will you try and control what I post, where I post or how I post - Do not annoy me with your arrogance and mightier-than-thou attitude - This isn't a highschool playground, so you don't have to big yourself up and act all like you own me...

Satan

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 02:06 AM

amikhar, you are basically correct.

However, I cannot recall - when did I say that the "comittee" is not willing to give others to suggestions? Once the hack is published, we will give people suggestions on how to imporve their codes. Once the codes are perfected, they will be marked as "PHP Valid". This is still a team effort, isn't it?

People do not read instructions only because those instructions are poorly formatted and/or badly organized. Sometimes it takes a lot of energy just to read one post of instructions, because it is all messed up. Hack Manual Generator, by the way, was an attempt to solve this. I'd like to note that it was a successful attempt. Because of a good first post organization, my hack threads rarely contain "bug!" exclamations and/or questions about something that was already explicitly stated in the first post. Which is also true about threads of other coders, who took their time to write a neatly organized instructions post.

Now, about the more social way: nobody is going to learn unless they have a motivation to do so. In this case, the motivation would be the QA Team and its "PHP Valid" label. Which shouldn't necessarily stick out, it could be just a small label... For those who are interested.

Chris M

08-02-2005, 02:09 AM

Boofo

08-02-2005, 02:09 AM

But I own you! You are mine to do with as I wish! ;)

Chris M

08-02-2005, 02:11 AM

But I own you! You are mine to do with as I wish! ;)

Ssh Bob - That's only in private ;)

Satan

Boofo

08-02-2005, 02:14 AM

Now, about the more social way: nobody is going to learn unless they have a motivation to do so. In this case, the motivation would be the QA Team and its "PHP Valid" label. Which shouldn't necessarily stick out, it could be just a small label... For those who are interested.

Bit it is STILL a label and anytime you label something that changes it's place in the scheme of things. Being you supposedly know the PHP standard, then all of your mods would get the highest approval while someone like me would never get a mod released, because I know nothing about the standards. And, no matter what anyone else says, the wanting to help others with the standards would wane after a while due to frustration because some poor newbie doesn't catch on as fast as you think they should. No one seems to rememeber the time when they asked stupid questions over and over and just couldn't understand what you were trying to tell them. I rememeber those times dearly, I still do it. ;)

Chris M

08-02-2005, 02:18 AM

Bit it is STILL a label and anytime you label something that changes it's place in the scheme of things. Being you supposedly know the PHP standard, then all of your mods would get the highest approval while someone like me would never get a mod released, because I know nothing about the standards. And, no matter what anyone else says, the wanting to help others with the standards would wane after a while due to frustration because some poor newbie doesn't catch on as fast as you think they should. No one seems to rememeber the time when they asked stupid questions over and over and just couldn't understand what you were trying to tell them. I rememeber those times dearly, I still do it. ;)

Yes yes Bob - I totally agree :)

At the end of the day we are best off leaving them to their own devices - If they ask for help, you try and give it - Give them How-tos to read, sources to look at, but at the end of the day leave it there :)

Re-code sloppy code you don't like to suit your own needs, and be done with it :)

Satan

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 02:40 AM

if you respected me as someone who might have a valid arguement
Are there any reasons for me not respecting you?
Of course, if you suspect me of not respecting you, there are probably some reasons which I don't know about. And you know better ;)

PHP code being sloppy or invalid does not create rendering issues
It creates higher server load, and this only fact is enough to try and make it less sloppy. Esspecially in those cases when you run three large queries instead of getting data from a variable that was already created.

You are also talking as if the World Wide Web Consortium and Jelsoft are equal in status - They are not...

I am not saying that. I am saying that Jelsoft's guidelines should be on the same level as W3C, with some minor fixes and additions, of course. There should be some standards for every language. There are standards for HTML/CSS/RSS, and I don't see why not standartize rules for PHP?

Bit it is STILL a label and anytime you label something that changes it's place in the scheme of things. Being you supposedly know the PHP standard, then all of your mods would get the highest approval while someone like me would never get a mod released, because I know nothing about the standards. And, no matter what anyone else says, the wanting to help others with the standards would wane after a while due to frustration because some poor newbie doesn't catch on as fast as you think they should. No one seems to rememeber the time when they asked stupid questions over and over and just couldn't understand what you were trying to tell them. I rememeber those times dearly, I still do it.

You are right... But, I am sure there is an expression that would not create any misconception... For example, there would be an icon instead the text. The icon would be wrappen into an URL that would lead to a detailed explanation, describing concisely what the icon means. With an extended explanation like that, it is possible to make sure that there are no misconceptions.

I already said that there would be no enforcement:

"Based on above + plus KirbyDE's post, I am rethinking the effectiveness of the above method... However, I'd like to propose another plan, which I am sure can act as a compromisse between the two sides:

On vBulletin.org, hacks have many custom fields ("Installer Included", "Support Provided", etc). It should be no problem for the forum administrators to add a field "QA Verified", editable only by the QA team and the administrators. Once the field is created, make the board display only the Verified hacks by default, with an option to display a complete list of hacks (both verified and non-verified). The option should be visualized as a link in every forum, and it should create a session variable (not a cookie), that would keep the setting as is until the user leaves the forum. Once he\she comes back, it will once again set to only display Verified hacks.

This way, it will feel like that the Verified hacks are positioned above non-verified hacks. While the coding style will not be enforced, vB hackers will be encouraged to code properly in order to rate higher and display their hacks better. The best part is, this system is easy to implement (I could help making it), and it would not require immediate validation, which is a plus from the QA team's point of view."

In other words, the QA guys would help the coder to perfect the code, after which the hack would be marked as "validated"...

Re-code sloppy code you don't like to suit your own needs, and be done with it

You are still missing one: I'd rather not install your hack than to waste time for recoding it...

Chris M

08-02-2005, 02:53 AM

Are there any reasons for me not respecting you?
Of course, if you suspect me of not respecting you, there are probably some reasons which I don't know about. And you know better ;)

It creates higher server load, and this only fact is enough to try and make it less sloppy. Esspecially in those cases when you run three large queries instead of getting data from a variable that was already created.

I am not saying that. I am saying that Jelsoft's guidelines should be on the same level as W3C, with some minor fixes and additions, of course. There should be some standards for every language. There are standards for HTML/CSS/RSS, and I don't see why not standartize rules for PHP?

You are right... But, I am sure there is an expression that would not create any misconception... For example, there would be an icon instead the text. The icon would be wrappen into an URL that would lead to a detailed explanation, describing concisely what the icon means. With an extended explanation like that, it is possible to make sure that there are no misconceptions.

I already said that there would be no enforcement:

"Based on above + plus KirbyDE's post, I am rethinking the effectiveness of the above method... However, I'd like to propose another plan, which I am sure can act as a compromisse between the two sides:

On vBulletin.org, hacks have many custom fields ("Installer Included", "Support Provided", etc). It should be no problem for the forum administrators to add a field "QA Verified", editable only by the QA team and the administrators. Once the field is created, make the board display only the Verified hacks by default, with an option to display a complete list of hacks (both verified and non-verified). The option should be visualized as a link in every forum, and it should create a session variable (not a cookie), that would keep the setting as is until the user leaves the forum. Once he\she comes back, it will once again set to only display Verified hacks.

This way, it will feel like that the Verified hacks are positioned above non-verified hacks. While the coding style will not be enforced, vB hackers will be encouraged to code properly in order to rate higher and display their hacks better. The best part is, this system is easy to implement (I could help making it), and it would not require immediate validation, which is a plus from the QA team's point of view."

In other words, the QA guys would help the coder to perfect the code, after which the hack would be marked as "validated"...

You are still missing one: I'd rather not install your hack than to waste time for recoding it...

Then quite simply do not install the hack and shut up about standards then ;)

What you are muttering about respect, I'm unsure - The message I am getting disrespects me - It disrespects my standpoint which is shared by others and it is at some points almost offensive...

It does not always create high server load - With multiple queries its not a case of a standard - Simply tell the user the information is already loaded and that their queries are not needed...

Jelsoft's guidelines should not be - PHP is not exclusive for Jelsoft - You are treating it as if it is or should be...

Whatever happens, it will cause more problems than it's worth - The only ones who are going to moan about standards are those who can already sort the problem out themselves, but cannot be bothered, but expect others to do it for them when they may not know how...

Satan

Logikos

08-02-2005, 05:21 AM

Erwin

08-02-2005, 05:22 AM

Let's get one thing straight - there's a huge difference between:

1. Badly written code

AND

2. Well-written code that looks bad

In case 1, the code is badly written so that there are more queries, it is inefficient etc.

In case 2, the code works well, but just looks bad - ie. it's not formatted nicely in separate lines with comments.

If we are talking about case 1, I say, go for it, try to optimize badly written code.

If we are talking about case 2, then I would say that is up to individual preference - for example, if and when I release a hack, it's because I've usually written it for my own site, so I'm not going to waste too much time formatting it "to look nice".

So let's decide - are we talking about function or about "looks". :)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 05:24 AM

Marco van Herwaarden

08-02-2005, 06:17 AM

You are forgetting possibility 3 (or 1b): Badly written code that cause either security holes or make your board disfunction to some degree.

sketch42

08-02-2005, 06:22 AM

But even functionally bad code shouldn't be a hinderance to a newbie. Teaching him how to do it right is altogether different than chastising him in public with some sort of label. That will turn some otherwise good coders off from trying to learn and make it better.

interesting discussion... now i know that i Cant code my way ot of a paper bag.. and if i release a hack (not a template mod :lick: ) i would never expect to pass QA or any other standard... as im not even a begginer , im just struggling to learn enough to understand a quarter of this stuff ... and i dont think that anyone who releases one or two small hacks in their lifetime here would ever think that they would pass QA either... but say by some oddball chance i made a hack and it passed QA.. illtell you that i most likely still cant code my way out of a paper bag.. my point being... who does this benefit.. the coder? the community?

i honestly dont see it benefiting either... as someone who is just beggining to learn all this doesnt really care about neat code.. they want to learn how to code.. and so with time theyll learn, hopefully.

i cant see it benefitting the community because like Satan, Amy and Boofo have previously stated this will more likely create a rift in the community between coders.

so i say No to QA

just my 1/2 a cent

Andrew111888

08-02-2005, 06:36 AM

As a member who's only released a couple of hacks and is still a "beginner" in terms of coding for the uses of others, I know that if someone were to come along and either label my hack "inefficient", "poorly written", or "not quality assured" I probably wouldn't bother to even consider releasing hacks later down the line.

If you come across a hack that is so poor that it would harm the function of the forum, I think you should simply try and help the user who released it. Instead of "This hack is not quality assured and therefore is garbage", say "Well, around [this block], you could minimize the number of queries by doing [this]..." and the response you would receieve would most likely a thank-you.

This idea comes across as egotistical and sounds to me like a way to rub skill in the face of somebody who's still learning.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 06:44 AM

i cant see it benefitting the community because like Satan, Amy and Boofo have previously stated this will more likely create a rift in the community between coders.

2 things ... first, you are one of the first to spell my name right. LOL

Second, grouping me with Satan defiantely makes me never want to release another hack/mod. ;)

Marco van Herwaarden

08-02-2005, 06:48 AM

2 things ... first, you are one of the first to spell my name right. LOLCommon Beefy, don't make a fuzz about that.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 06:54 AM

See what I mean, sketch42? LOL

sketch42

08-02-2005, 07:11 AM

See what I mean, sketch42? LOL

Lmao... actually i have to concentrate to spell it right, so i dont spell it Boofoo as i thought it was for as long as i can remember lol :cheeky:

Boofo

08-02-2005, 07:16 AM

I just got tired of trying to correct everyone. LOL

Logikos

08-02-2005, 07:54 AM

I remember the days very clearly when I would ask dumb questions. I even go back and read some of my old threads and say 'Geez, that was so easy. I was such a nOoB'. I will admit, a lot of my threads didn't get answered or I just couldn't understand how to do it myself.

So what did I do? Started to learn the langage myself. After a few weeks of intense reading, I began hacking my test forum. After weeks of late night hacking, and going back and forth from my PHP book, sitepoint.com, and vB.org to get some PHP question answered. I finally finished my very first official hack. That hack happens to be vBSigHosting. I was really proud of myself, and wanted to release it to the community ASAP.

I wanted to share with everyone what I've been working so hard on. So i quickly started created a readme.txt file, and started uninstalling everything and reinstalling everything over and over again on my test board. That way my instructions were flawless. After a few nights of that, I finial got to release my first hack to the vBulletin community. All the moderators here helped me so much. Stefan, Erwin, Dean, Chen, ect...

I was so proud of my first hack, it even made it in the HOTM thread. Didn't win, but I came in 3rd. I was happy for that. Not bad for my first hack. Because of that, I wanted to release more hacks, and have done just that. Now, imagine if they slapped me with a sticker stating my hack wasn't QA approved. All my hopes and pride would have been shot down and i wouldn't be releasing more hacks because of that.

No matter how friendly you tell a user that there hack isn't QA approved. It hurts deep down inside, and would stop a lot of people like myself from releasing new and approved hacks. My $0.02.

Chris M

08-02-2005, 08:04 AM

You are forgetting possibility 3 (or 1b): Badly written code that cause either security holes or make your board disfunction to some degree.

If it has security holes the current vBulletin.org rules about disabling downloads would apply ;)

Satan

Adrian Schneider

08-02-2005, 08:05 AM

Logikos

08-02-2005, 08:08 AM

* tear

Joke all you want, alot of people start out in the same fashion I did. They want something done, do it your self. Most of the time they want to share with everyone on how to do it. But when you label someones hard work as not QA approved.... Well you know the rest.. :)

Chris M

08-02-2005, 08:11 AM

Joke all you want, alot of people start out in the same fashion I did. They want something done, do it your self. Most of the time they want to share with everyone on how to do it. But when you label someones hard work as not QA approved.... Well you know the rest.. :)

Exactly - Look at some of the things I first released for vB2...

Makes me cringe sometimes, but it reminds me that I've not always had as much knowledge as I do :)

Satan

Boofo

08-02-2005, 08:12 AM

Excellent post, LW. ;)

Logikos

08-02-2005, 08:14 AM

* Logikos takes a bow :p

Boofo

08-02-2005, 08:15 AM

You deserve it, sir. Hell, take another one! ;)

Chris M

08-02-2005, 08:15 AM

* Live Wire takes a bow :p

* hellsatan nudges LiveWire so he falls over onto his face:rolleyes:

:p

Don't encourage him boobfoo:rolleyes:

Satan

The Geek

08-02-2005, 08:17 AM

Excellent post, LW. ;)

Agreed!

Everyone has to start somewhere and imposing a judgemental process to releases would simply stem the flow of new ideas coming into the community.

Plus there is the problem that no one seemed to mention. Once you get QA'ed, what about future upgrades? As soon as you update you would have to lose the status again until the qa team got around to rechecking your changes.

Far too much micro management.

Why not simply check the macks when you have time and make a post saying 'checked through the code for version 1.39833535730' and it looks great! Or make some suggestions if not. Seems more constructive and realistic.

The idea as a whole is a nice utopian one - but not dooable on a productive large scale like this.

Marco van Herwaarden

08-02-2005, 09:14 AM

Just another stupid remark of me: :D
Based on the title of this thread 'coding style' is always open to interpretation and taste.

There are some things how vB is coded, that i don't like, and i will never use it, i will always use my own 'style'. So i guess my (h/m/p)acks would never get the QA label. :D

But i agree that it could scare away new coders if it was implemented.

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 09:32 AM

Since seemingly many of you here cannot read past the first post - I'd like ya'll to read it again.
I edited it to describe the NEW way the QA team would work.

This isn't a highschool playground

Oh. And how come you acting like you are on one?

You are treating it as if it is or should be...

You are right. It should be. Because amond PHP developers, Jelsoft's code is the best.

1. Badly written code
AND
2. Well-written code that looks bad
In case 1, the code is badly written so that there are more queries, it is inefficient etc.
In case 2, the code works well, but just looks bad - ie. it's not formatted nicely in separate lines with comments.

I was actually talking about both. To help remove any excess queries or inefficiency plus help format the code the best way possible.

Teaching him how to do it right is altogether different than chastising him in public with some sort of label. That will turn some otherwise good coders off from trying to learn and make it better.

Not teaching. Helping with suggestions...
People learn HTML. It is not cross-browser compatible in some ways, so it makes a lot more problems than pure formatting. Yet there you are - people learn both HTML and XHTML.

i would never expect to pass QA or any other standard

You would not need to pass. Your hack will be published the same way as the ones marked by QA...

Instead of "This hack is not quality assured and therefore is garbage"

Again, the hacks that have not been perfected, will not be marked as "garbage" in any way...
If they are, then you must agree that when there is a HOTM, all the rest of the hacks is marked as garbage.

Bottom line - nobody would "approve" or not "approve" anything. Just once a code of some hack has been perfected in ITS STRUCTURE, it would be marked as being so.

about personal preferences..

There is such thing as common sense. And there are a few ways that when being followed make the code easier to read, edit and understand for the majority (except for the masochists).

Boofo

08-02-2005, 09:37 AM

But would the average person who installs the hack think a hack is less than standard just because it was labeled that way? Yes, and that would stop them from wanting to install it which would reflect back on the coder and then we have that situation to deal with.

I'm not saying it isn't a good idea on paper, but to implement it on a board such as this where we are learning and helping one another almost daily, it would do a lot more harm than good in the end. Poeples feelings are involved, too.

Logikos

08-02-2005, 10:13 AM

Out of the 15 people who replied here, only one wants this system implemented. I don't see this happening in the near future. We should just move on...

Revan

08-02-2005, 10:18 AM

Two, TYVM :p

southernlady

08-02-2005, 10:25 AM

Jelsoft/Vbulletin is XHTLM 1.0 transitional W3C compliant and so it would make sense that any code/hack added to it should also be XHTLM 1.0 transitional W3C compliant.

Now, why CAN'T we as a community have an oversight group of advanced coders to see that the rest live up to that standard prior to posting a code?

As somone else pointed out, an open source community does it and does it well...validates each one of their hacks prior to release. They have a minimum that the hackers have to code to and if that isn't met the hack isn't passed, plain and simple. And if you know going into the process, why should it be a problem?

It's kind of like getting your DL...if you know going into the test that this is the minimum standard, and you fail to meet it, than why should it bother you to not pass? Put out a list of the minimum standard for a code for a Jelsoft hack and then put together a team of volunteers and see what happens. Just because it failed the first time doesn't mean it will fail now...MAKE IT WORK. All it takes is people who want it to work but if you are convinced it won't, then it won't.

It would also be helpful if the hacks that were updated were indicated that way...I've noticed that some listed as beta 1 are 5 pages deep and are now working on RC1.

As for quoting entire posts...that is considered rude by netiquette standards. One should only use the part of the posts that is needed to the conversation at hand.

Liz

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 10:27 AM

what an intresting thread this was, why did it have to go on so long? what is it about coders and a lack of people skills ;)

first off i'd like to state that i'd much rather see a team of people validating xhtml then code and second of all i'd like to say this thread waws rather trollopish.

while in essense what's being suggested is a nice idea, theirs nothing stopping anyone from offering the author assistance via pm, do you know how much it bugs me when i have to install a hack where the existing code is like \t\t\t\t\t in on the page and then the hack is just \t if that, but go all medievil on someone because they didn't do a line break in the right place is just wrong.

it's weird as i'm one of the folks that started here unable to code and gradually got better by putting out ++++ty code. see it works like this, you set out to do something you accomplish it, people appreciate it and you try for something bigger and better, that's how coding works for me, if i hadn't put out this then i wouldn't have tried for that and if i hadn't have tried for that then i wouldn't have had to learn that and so on and so forth, now my coding style is ALOT better, though i've not managed to build anything to showcase it but being ranks off of something that i done a while ago and improved upon isn't right.

if you're going to change peoples code for them they're not going to learn, infact the only way to learn is to let them grow as a coder, so in saying that i beleive that in the same way some strive for XHTML validated or Master Coder you should have the option to strive for vB.org PHP validated, however why this couldn't be done by simply uploading something allowing it to be checked automatically i don't see why not?

in all honesty i checked so see what DV was advising and of course the brinn *cough* i mean the lack of people skills in his approach let him down, and to say that a trinary operator makes the code better than a normal conditional is ludicrous, and things like that need to be avoided.

i do wonder though, for all the people looking to take those elevated positions, how often are you found in the PHP forum helping out the coders who are begging for help? i do find it strange that everyone's so willing to criticise code yet...meh

i also thing this would be a good chance to resuggest the open source forum.

Actually i've just remembered me and when i was first coding and my personal preference was if(condition){ but i needed help quite a bit (nothing's changed there) but stefan said in order for him to read it it needed to be standardized so i had to get into if(condition)\n{ now it's my preference too, the biggest changes are made at ground level, if you're that big on standards then help the next generation to get into them.

blah blah blah, i've waffled on enough now. :)

Erwin

08-02-2005, 10:41 AM

Or just forget the { in an if statement, put it all in the 1 line and end it with a ; .

In PHP, there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. :)

The truth of the matter is that this is a good idea, and if there are people who have the time and dedication to do this, it would be great. :) I would mainly see this as a process to fix up security holes in hacks.

But it has to be a voluntary thing - maybe hackers who choose to go through this process can opt in.

We can't really force every hack author to go through this. Like I brought up earlier on, this may discourage new members from releasing hacks they cooked up late one night - it may be badly written, but it may be a great idea, and someone else who downloaded it may recode it and post it back up in the thread. :) Such a hack may not "pass" the initial review.

But really, a lot of badly written hacks, through the process of others downloading it and upgrading it, do get a lot of kinks fixed up. :) I can see the value of formalizing this - but like I said, it takes a LOT of time. :)

Besides Dark Visor, who else would have time to review the potentially thousands of hacks that will get released?

Revan

08-02-2005, 10:47 AM

i do wonder though, for all the people looking to take those elevated positions, how often are you found in the PHP forum helping out the coders who are begging for help? i do find it strange that everyone's so willing to criticise code yet...mehI would very much like for you to show me the thread in the PHP forum that reads "Please help me verify this segment of code conforms to vBulletin Coding Standards".
If I ever saw such a thread, I would be happy to clean up the code for the user, and also post a link to the Manual, showing him where to reference for the future. :)
As for the people saying "If you clean the code for them, they'll never learn.", I disagree. What WILL prohibit learning is no-one they look up to pointing out the flaws in their coding. I could have an user with 5 posts tell me he disagreed with my coding standards (if it weren't for the fact that I already comply to an extensive degree with the vBulletin Coding Standards ;)), and I would simply ignore him.

What's the difference between a volunteer team of members checking hacks and pointing out these flaws, or someone who actually has this as a job on this board? Nothing forces the coder to comply.

I can agree with the people saying it would be a kick to the scrotum to get your hack denied from the board, but this has already been changed in the original post, so this argument is invalid.

As for the labels, I think a newbie hack installer has a right to know if this hack has been coded as per a set of standards. This will make the user feel more secure about installing the hack, because he can be certain the odds of this hack destroying something on this board are minute.
I think we should be careful to cuddle the coders enough to put the end-user at risk.

I propose the following change to this idea:
4 levels of labels for a hack:

Valid - The hack complies with the vB Coding Standards both in terms of PHP and Source Code Formatting.
Cleared - The hack's PHP is optimised, but it has obvious flaws in Coding Style
Warning - Neither the hack's PHP or the hack's Coding Style complies
Pending - Pending evaluation (default for new hacks)

If a hacker is determined to become a part of the community, he will accept that he has to learn and not publically release 15 hacks before finally wising up his style.
There could even be a new forum where aspiring hackers can post their "raw" hacks for tips and pointers on how to optimise it and make it comply.

I just feel that I have seen too many horribly coded hacks (one of them is a major hack that is even SOLD, Darkwaltz4 will know what I'm talking about ;)).
Jelsoft creates out-of-the-box clean and fairly optimised code, they have spent many developer hours making their product more hacker friendly, something they really didn't HAVE do to, but did it anyways. Is it really fair to repay them by allowing any form of garbage (as garbage can come from experienced coders as well as newbies), degrading the performance of their product, then whine to them about how it's running slow? Hardly.

EDIT:
Or just forget the { in an if statement, put it all in the 1 line and end it with a ; .Extremely annoying as well, makes debugging a pain.
The truth of the matter is that this is a good idea, and if there are people who have the time and dedication to do this, it would be great. :) I would mainly see this as a process to fix up security holes in hacks. That's an added bonus, yes ;)
But it has to be a voluntary thing - maybe hackers who choose to go through this process can opt in. That's a good idea, but there would HAVE to be a label showing the end-user that this hack did not go through validation.
We can't really force every hack author to go through this. Like I brought up earlier on, this may discourage new members from releasing hacks they cooked up late one night - it may be badly written, but it may be a great idea, and someone else who downloaded it may recode it and post it back up in the thread. :) Such a hack may not "pass" the initial review. But if the author is unwilling to fix his hack even with the help of others, the end-user should be warned, IMO.
Besides Dark Visor, who else would have time to review the potentially thousands of hacks that will get released?Me.

bigcurt

08-02-2005, 10:48 AM

Well, before I even start posting let it be stated I am not a coder of this community ( other than HTML ) therefore I am not aware of the "coding standard" of which you speak, but if I am getting this straight you would like for a group of "advanced coders" to get together and look around and mark hacks that they believe are flawless in functionality and mark them as "perfect". Well answer me this question, What about the beginning coders? Guy comes in and makes a hack that alot of people love using, but he also sees that the hack has been up for a while and was not marked as perfect. Does this not discourage the coder? It would me! Just as boofo said it reflects back on the coder and his style of coding and discourages him, if I come to a community and release a "hack" but I am discouraged with grief of not having the right "coding format" or being "n00b" I simply wont release a hack.

The plain and simple point is, is that without coders this site would DIE..simple as that..without the volunteers among us that take there time and energy to code...this site simply would not last and we would be with default vB or we would have to code ourselves without any help from a community.

Now, I am not going to get into a "name calling" fight..but the fact that you dare come here and make many posts discouraging the members of this community is sick and wrong. hellsatan makes hacks for this site and his own, he is gracious enough to release whatever code he makes free of use and he should be thanks for that ( along with plenty of others who have done this also, boofo, livewire, danny, sabret00the...everyone ) If you have your ideas of a "perfect world" where everyone code is perfect and flawless..that is fine...make a site and charge a monthly fee for it ( cause it seems you are so set on making money I see ) But you remember that you started out somewhere also, just like everyone else. Please do not be an ass on this site, I have rarely seen you make a thread in good mind set.

That is all I have to say..and despite whatever name calling may come back up, I will not reply to it..I am just saying what I believe.

~SmallCurt

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 10:51 AM

I would very much like for you to show me the thread in the PHP forum that reads "Please help me verify this segment of code conforms to vBulletin Coding Standards".
If I ever saw such a thread, I would be happy to clean up the code for the user, and also post a link to the Manual, showing him where to reference for the future.
As for the people saying "If you clean the code for them, they'll never learn.", I disagree. What WILL prohibit learning is no-one they look up to pointing out the flaws in their coding. I could have an user with 5 posts tell me he disagreed with my coding standards (if it weren't for the fact that I already comply to an extensive degree with the vBulletin Coding Standards ), and I would simply ignore him.

no theirs no posts that say is this valid, but their are posts that ask how do you do this? why not show them with valid code?

and with the second thing i was speaking from a personal POV i know that if you tell me my codes wrong despite it working you lose my interest where as if you play with the words and your approach it can work wonders, it's like a woman with cleavage asking for a ride compared to a headmistress looking lass.

why dog on someone because they don't meet your interpretation or what something should be? if theirs no security holes give them time to improve themselves as i assure you for everyone you get to come round to your way of thinking, you'll get another that you caused to give up.

I propose the following change to this idea:
4 levels of labels for a hack:

1. Valid - The hack complies with the vB Coding Standards both in terms of PHP and Source Code Formatting.
2. Cleared - The hack's PHP is optimised, but it has obvious flaws in Coding Style
3. Warning - Neither the hack's PHP or the hack's Coding Style complies
4. Pending - Pending evaluation (default for new hacks)

If a hacker is determined to become a part of the community, he will accept that he has to learn and not publically release 15 hacks before finally wising up his style.
There could even be a new forum where aspiring hackers can post their "raw" hacks for tips and pointers on how to optimise it and make it comply.

I just feel that I have seen too many horribly coded hacks (one of them is a major hack that is even SOLD, Darkwaltz4 will know what I'm talking about ).
Jelsoft creates out-of-the-box clean and fairly optimised code, they have spent many developer hours making their product more hacker friendly, something they really didn't HAVE do to, but did it anyways. Is it really fair to repay them by allowing any form of garbage (as garbage can come from experienced coders as well as newbies), degrading the performance of their product, then whine to them about how it's running slow? Hardly.

as i said make it automated utilizing PHP and regex's or not at all, that way theirs no people involved to hurt feelings and only the people that want their hacks validated get them validated.

Revan

08-02-2005, 10:59 AM

make a site and charge a monthly fee for it ( cause it seems you are so set on making money I see )Quote me the post where we have mentioned money, please :)

no theirs no posts that say is this valid, but their are posts that ask how do you do this? why not show them with valid code?I dont know about DV but I don't venture there much because I can rarely code off the top of my head, so it would be too much testing and hassle.
and with the second thing i was speaking from a personal POV i know that if you tell me my codes wrong despite it working you lose my interest where as if you play with the words and your approach it can work wonders, it's like a woman with cleavage asking for a ride compared to a headmistress looking lass.See the next point of this post.
why dog on someone because they don't meet your interpretation or what something should be? if theirs no security holes give them time to improve themselves as i assure you for everyone you get to come round to your way of thinking, you'll get another that you caused to give up.Do you think we were going to hound them day and night, never giving them rest until they comply? Wrong. We would simply notify the coder and warn the end-user. If this discourages the coder, then that coder is a carebear and really should toughen up if he wants to survive in life. Constructive critisism is the core of all learning.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 11:00 AM

Sabe, it sure took you long enough to get involved in this thread. ;)

I'm not saying the idea isn't good, just do it without the labels. We can help one another better our coding standards without labeling them in any way. Make a forum and let people ask for help and get their code looked at and improvemenets suggested. But labelling anyone is only going to cause hurt feelings and problems.

Andreas

08-02-2005, 11:02 AM

I like the idea a Hacker can opt-in for Validation and the different levels proposed by Revan.

Count me in for the review Team ;)

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote me the post where we have mentioned money, please :)

I dont know about DV but I don't venture there much because I can rarely code off the top of my head, so it would be too much testing and hassle.
See the next point of this post.
Do you think we were going to hound them day and night, never giving them rest until they comply? Wrong. We would simply notify the coder and warn the end-user. If this discourages the coder, then that coder is a carebear and really should toughen up if he wants to survive in life. Constructive critisism is the core of all learning.

how does it sit right with you that you're willing to say "you're code is ++++, fix it" but you're not willing to say "oh to do that, try this" come on, if any system like the one you're backing was put into place, i'd suggest that all 'validators' had a record or helping needy coders before they even thought about validating code.

and while you're not saying you're hounding em, didn't i read up above that you'd like to filter out un-standardized code and even possibly disallow un-standardised code? if that's not hounding people i don't know what is.

funny thing about this thread is, that i've spent most of my time the past couple weeks on a literature peer review system lol.

bigcurt

08-02-2005, 11:04 AM

Quote me the post where we have mentioned money, please

I was actually referring to his sig and the fact of the thread a week or 2 ago about releasing paid hacks on vbulletin.org

~Curt

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 11:07 AM

Sabe, it sure took you long enough to get involved in this thread.
i was pretending i had something better to do with my time ;)

calorie

08-02-2005, 11:11 AM

if ($a) echo "A";

if ($a) print("A");

if (isset($a)) echo "A";

if(!empty($a)) { echo "A"; }

if (isset($a)) {
echo "A";
}

if (isset($a)) {
echo "A";
}

if ($a)
{
echo "A";
}

// la la la

Boofo

08-02-2005, 11:13 AM

That passes! Good job! ;)

Revan

08-02-2005, 11:15 AM

how does it sit right with you that you're willing to say "you're code is ++++, fix it" but you're not willing to say "oh to do that, try this" come on, if any system like the one you're backing was put into place, i'd suggest that all 'validators' had a record or helping needy coders before they even thought about validating code.Impossible, as you already know that will diminish the team to 0. Just because I don't spend all my time helping other people in the PHP forum, doesn't make my opinion as a validator any less valuable. I know most of the standards by heart, and code from them the best I can (Im actively refusing to capitalise 'as' in foreach() statements though :p), so in what way does the fact that Im not seen in the PHP forum make me less worthy of a Validator position?
I am quite capable of offering a segment of code recoded/optimised/cleaned up.
In fact, Im offended by the wording you are using to describe how we would do our job. In no way did we intend to call the code shide, or ORDER a coder to fix it. We would send a notice to the coder sounding like so:
Hello, $username

Thank you for participating in the Validation system here on vBulletin.org. Your participation helps improve the community as a whole, and helps the end-user feel more secure about what s/he is installing.

We have reviewed your modification, and it has been marked as $validation_result.
For more information on the different levels, and guidelines on how to improve your code, please check this page (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/validation.php).
If you require further assistance, feel free to reply to this PM or contact any other member of the Validation Team.

Again, thank you for your participation, and thank you for sharing your hard work.

Sincerely,
vBulletin.org Validation Team
Now will you please shut the **** up about the whole "your gonna rip the piss outta the hacks hence this is ++++" deal?
and while you're not saying you're hounding em, didn't i read up above that you'd like to filter out un-standardized code and even possibly disallow un-standardised code? if that's not hounding people i don't know what is.I doubt this is possible with regex, and we never said anything about disallowing un-compliant code. We would only disallow code that had serious flaws (such as security holes, noticeable performance drops, etc).

calorie

08-02-2005, 11:16 AM

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 11:16 AM

if ($a)
{
echo "A";
}:p

calorie

08-02-2005, 11:17 AM

Exactly...

Boofo

08-02-2005, 11:20 AM

Well, my coding days are over. :(

;)

Revan

08-02-2005, 11:20 AM

Check my above post, it contains a good idea and a specification :P

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 11:20 AM

1. https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=747030&postcount=10 (first paragraph under the second quote)

2. Just because I don't spend all my time helping other people in the PHP forum, doesn't make my opinion as a validator any less valuable.
nah it not only does. it should be the standard that's met by validators ;)

Revan

08-02-2005, 11:21 AM

DV hasn't seen my post, who the hell said his idea was written in stone?

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 11:21 AM

I doubt this is possible with regex, and we never said anything about disallowing un-compliant code. We would only disallow code that had serious flaws (such as security holes, noticeable performance drops, etc).
i actually think it could be done but we'd need matt in here as he's handy with regex's

DV hasn't seen my post, who the hell said his idea was written in stone?
it's his thread, i assumed he was the idea leader.

i hope my postcount is going up for all of this :nervous:

Revan

08-02-2005, 11:23 AM

Paul M

08-02-2005, 11:24 AM

Boofo

08-02-2005, 11:26 AM

Well, I'm not for it if you guys are going to publicly use labels of any kind. It's just not right, no matter how you look at it. And I for one won't be releasing any more hacks here if that happens. 'Nuff said. ;)

Revan

08-02-2005, 11:27 AM

This is funny, phpBB has a much stricter version of what we are proposing, yet I don't know of as many non-official major hack forums as there's vBulletin ones.
Maybe vB coders have been pampered for too long...

Logikos

08-02-2005, 11:28 AM

Five pages already, and for what ? This basically seems to be a few people who think they are better than everyone else wanting to mark down those who they think are not "good enough". What on earth is "php valid". If it works then it's valid - and "vB hackers will be encouraged to code properly" ?? properly in whose opinion ? Most people write hacks for their own boards and then release them here for others. When I do this I write in my style, no one elses, and I sure as hell will not put up with a "Warning" tag because it doesn't happen to suit someone else. Such labels will not help anyone, they will cause division and drive people away to release their work in more friendly places.

Exactly! Why should I indent my code? Because vBulletin does? Why should I add comments? Because vBulletin does? I will not recode my code to the standards to some team who thinks there code is better or easier to read. 80% of installers don't look at the code like that, they just follow instructions.

Whos to say that this is not valid

$hacks = $DB_site->query("
SELECT *
FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "forum
WHERE forumid = $forumid
");

Or that this isn't valid

$hacks = $DB_site->query("SELECT * FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "forum WHERE forumid = $forumid");

Both do the same thing, one is just eaiser to read.

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 11:28 AM

You are missing the majority of my post. I think that message to be sent to pariticipants of the validation system was well written and not hurtful in any way.
After all, it IS opt-in, and people who choose never to opt-in just have to face having their hacks marked as "Unvalidated" (or similar). It's their choice.

all i'm saying is to get my support for something like this is;

if (automated) // my preference for the system
{
echo "do not mark at all unless it passes the validation and then marked \"validated\"";
}
else
{
echo "all 'validators' must have a record of helping the needy before they go about putting down the people that make this site what it is";
}

:)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 11:30 AM

I'll have the number 2, Sabe, to go. ;)

Logikos

08-02-2005, 11:30 AM

all i'm saying is to get my support for something like this is;

if (automated) // my preference for the system
{
echo "do not mark at all unless it passes the validation and then marked \"validated\"";
}
else
{
echo "all 'validators' must have a record of helping the needy before they go about putting down the people that make this site what it is";
}

:)

Your wrong! Its $automated Now don't code anymore cause its not 'valid php' :p

Revan

08-02-2005, 11:31 AM

Boofo

08-02-2005, 11:31 AM

oooohhhhh, LW used the sarcasm tags. I'm telling! ;)

yoyoyoyo

08-02-2005, 11:34 AM

I think it would be great to have a specific forum "hacks that are looking for help" where people can voluntarily post their hacks, and people who feel like helping out can help. It would be like a "beta, but looking for assistance" forum. Then after the hack has all of the bugs worked out of it it can be moved to a release forum. Posting in the forum would be voluntary, as I mentioned- people could post in the regular beta forum if they are working it out themselves, and in the "beta, but looking for assistance" forum if they have done all they can do, but need help. Then there would be no stigma, or labels, and people would get the help they need (hopefully).

calorie

08-02-2005, 11:35 AM

1. Valid - The hack complies with the vB Coding Standards both in terms of PHP and Source Code Formatting.
2. Cleared - The hack's PHP is optimised, but it has obvious flaws in Coding Style
3. Warning - Neither the hack's PHP or the hack's Coding Style complies
4. Pending - Pending evaluation (default for new hacks)

... opt-in, and people who choose never to opt-in just have to face having their hacks marked as "Unvalidated" ...

Assuming this example, the best to hope for using...

if (isset($a)) {
echo "A";
}

Is "Unvalidated" or "Cleared" even though... ;)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 11:35 AM

Still you are saying "putting down". You seem to be unable to understand how it's gonna be done, in spite of my best attempts at showing you a nice, friendly way of doing it. That is highly annoying.

And I think that such a position should be awarded based on skill and actual familiarisation with the things they would be working with, rather than how much time they have spent in the help forums.

I think the problem everyone seems to be having is that there are a few coders here (and I won't mention your name Marco) who have an attitude and think they are beyond helping newbies and would rather sit on a pedistal and preach than get down in the trenches where the real dirty work is. Helping someone learn and showing them the way is one thing, but labeling them because they don't meet the standards you are setting, is another. Labels suck! And anyone that uses them ... well ... you know the rest. ;)

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 11:37 AM

Still you are saying "putting down". You seem to be unable to understand how it's gonna be done, in spite of my best attempts at showing you a nice, friendly way of doing it. That is highly annoying.

And I think that such a position should be awarded based on skill and actual familiarisation with the things they would be working with, rather than how much time they have spent in the help forums.let's not get into semantics, when you're saying "not validated" that's a put down. we can play on words all day but to say that someone's code is not as good as another's so publically is a 'put down' by all standards i know.

the word standards is a great one for this thread don't you think?

Revan

08-02-2005, 11:40 AM

I think the problem everyone seems to be having is that there are a few coders here (and I won't mention your name Marco) who have an attitude and think they are beyond helping newbies and would rather sit on a pedistal and preach than get down in the trenches where the real dirty work is. Helping someone learn and showing them the way is one thing, but labeling them because they don't meet the standards you are setting, is another. Labels suck! And anyone that uses them ... well ... you know the rest. ;)It's not nice to call your boss (Xenon) a stinker, you know...
I took a hella long time getting my Advanced Coder status because close to all the good hack ideas was taken by everyone else, and I devote my time to managing the RPG more than anything. Who's to say I was not as good of a coder as hellsatan? LW? Even now, who's to say Im not as good of a coder as ZT?
OH NOES! I r teh labelled! I must now go kill myself.

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 11:41 AM

But it has to be a voluntary thing - maybe hackers who choose to go through this process can opt in.

It is voluntary. Would you please pay more attention to what's written in the first post? Thanks.

We can't really force every hack author to go through this.

I agree.. There could be an opt-in/opt-out option in usercp.

But really, a lot of badly written hacks, through the process of others downloading it and upgrading it, do get a lot of kinks fixed up. I can see the value of formalizing this - but like I said, it takes a LOT of time.

It does take a lot of time.. But who is in a rush for this?

Besides Dark Visor, who else would have time to review the potentially thousands of hacks that will get released?

Once there is a team, more volunteers will join...

If you clean the code for them, they'll never learn.

Eventually, they will learn. They will probably read the suggestions, and if they are interested, they will pay attention to the changes. As Revan said, "If this discourages the coder, then that coder is a carebear and really should toughen up if he wants to survive in life. Constructive critisism is the core of all learning."...

As for the labels, I think a newbie hack installer has a right to know if this hack has been coded as per a set of standards. This will make the user feel more secure about installing the hack, because he can be certain the odds of this hack destroying something on this board are minute.

Exactly what I am trying to say.. :) Any care about the end-users, or is this only about the process of releasing the code?

As per labels, I agree except I would change "Valid" to "Optimized".

Me.

Thanks, really appreciate that.

Guy comes in and makes a hack that alot of people love using, but he also sees that the hack has been up for a while and was not marked as perfect. Does this not discourage the coder? It does discourage me.

Taking into account that suggestions are offered, the guy of yours would have a perfect opportunity to learn from the suggestion and improve his code. If he is not happy, see two paragraphs above.

cause it seems you are so set on making money I see

This is irrelevant to the discussion. I never said QA would charge anything for the suggestions or qualifications...

no theirs no posts that say is this valid, but their are posts that ask how do you do this? why not show them with valid code?

An example of such post, please? I rarely see any of those.

I dont know about DV but I don't venture there much because I can rarely code off the top of my head, so it would be too much testing and hassle.

It is not always necessary to test a code. In fact, I can write a properly working hack without ever testing it...

Two people, TYVM!

4, TYVM :)

if ($a) echo "A";

if ($a) print("A");

if (isset($a)) echo "A";

if(!empty($a)) { echo "A"; }

if (isset($a)) {
echo "A";
}

if (isset($a)) {
echo "A";
}

if ($a)
{
echo "A";
}

// la la la

This is actually a good example of how a coding style affect the code's readability...

1. https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/show...30&postcount=10 (first paragraph under the second quote)

Don't try to use obsolete information... The newest info is in the first post, as was already mentioned.

P.S. Also, don't try to use thread title or whatever against me... I am not in position to change the thread's title, and if I was I assure you that I would remove the word "enforce"...

Assuming this example, the best to hope for using...

Code:

if (isset($a)) {
echo "A";
}

Is "Unvalidated" or "Cleared" even though...

Umm... Why use isset(), if it an additional 7 bytes? By optimizing even this small piece of code, you save a lot of traffic and disc space in the long run.

OH NOES! I r teh labelled! I must now go kill myself.

LOL :)

it's his thread, i assumed he was the idea leader.

You assumed wrong. There is no such thing as "idea leader", it would be a team effort...

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 11:49 AM

their are posts that ask how do you do this? why not show them with valid code?An example of such post, please? I rarely see any of those.you don't venture down their much do you? 9/10 posts are asking how do you do this or why don't this work.

You assumed wrong. There is no such thing as "idea leader", it would be a team effort...come on take responsibility, it was your idea, you put it forward, i wasn't referring about implementation, i was referring to the act of the idea being put forward.

ps. people skills DV remember cleavage, cleavage ;)

calorie

08-02-2005, 11:51 AM

This is actually a good example of how a coding style affect the code's readability...

if (isset($a)) {
echo "A";
}

if (isset($a))
{
echo "A";
}

The latter isn't an more readable that the former IMHO, but the former is, erm, marked as...

Boofo

08-02-2005, 11:54 AM

It's not nice to call your boss (Xenon) a stinker, you know...
I took a hella long time getting my Advanced Coder status because close to all the good hack ideas was taken by everyone else, and I devote my time to managing the RPG more than anything. Who's to say I was not as good of a coder as hellsatan? LW? Even now, who's to say Im not as good of a coder as ZT?
OH NOES! I r teh labelled! I must now go kill myself.

How did Xenon get brought into this? He doesn't label anyone.

I think the idea is good, really. I just think labeling is wrong. And almost everyone here is a better coder than I will ever be. I won't be "labeled" by anyone. I'm too old for that stuff.

The newbies deserve the chance to learn, just like you got and the rest of us. And no matter what you say now, if someone had tried to label you when you first started out, you might not have ever gotten to where you are now. ;)

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 11:56 AM

else
{
echo "all 'validators' must have a record of helping the needy before they go about putting down the people that make this site what it is";
}

You do not seem to understand that noone would put anybody down... In contrast, we would try to put everybody up...

Both do the same thing, one is just eaiser to read.

Doesn't readability matter? Since it does matter, the code becomes invalid according to reability preference of non-masochist people...
There is also a horizontal scroll which is a negative element of any design. (Here, we are designing the code...)

Still you are saying "putting down". You seem to be unable to understand how it's gonna be done, in spite of my best attempts at showing you a nice, friendly way of doing it. That is highly annoying.

Ah you see some people do it on purpose, they are not able to argumentize properly, so they will simply try to revert anything said by others against those who said it (esspecially if what was said is already obsolete), while repeating their own point of view over and over... ;)

Paul M

08-02-2005, 11:56 AM

It is not always necessary to test a code. In fact, I can write a properly working hack without ever testing it...What an arrogant statement, I don't care if a hack is one line, you should still test it. No one is that perfect, allthough it's obvious some think they are.

Andreas

08-02-2005, 11:59 AM

It is possible to write code that is 100% working properly (according to the specification) without ever testing it.
However, this takes a loooong time as you have to proof it (eg. assertions, loop invariants, etc.)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:00 PM

And we all know Kirby's hacks work right the first time, huh, buddy? ;)

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:05 PM

come on take responsibility, it was your idea, you put it forward, i wasn't referring about implementation, i was referring to the act of the idea being put forward

You are right, I put forth the idea and I am taking the responsibility for it.
Now, what I meant was that what the QA team would work with others in a team effort with other QA members...

ps. people skills DV remember cleavage, cleavage

English please?

The latter isn't an more readable that the former IMHO, but the former is, erm, marked as...

It is a more readable version, because in the first version the two lines look "stuck together", which make it uneasy to separate them in case of an edit... In the latter way of doing it, however, it has a lot of space around, giving some room to the coder (for example, if he wants to put in a comment.. or anything else). This is the same as breaking long texts into paragraphs. It is just easier to read for those who read it.

I'm too old for that sh!t.

Come on, what kind of language is that... You are a moderator. Set a good example... ;)

And no matter what you say now, if someone had tried to label you when you first started out, you might not have ever gotten to where you are now.

Since the very beginning, I would be more than happy if someone criticized my code and rated it...

Logikos

08-02-2005, 12:06 PM

It is not always necessary to test a code. In fact, I can write a properly working hack without ever testing it...

The exact reason why vB.org doesn't need this system. Your ignorance shows, and I will no longer post my opinions in this thread. If such a system would come about, then I would no longer release my work here. I don't need some ignorant team to tell me that my code isn't valid when indeed it works.

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 12:06 PM

You do not seem to understand that noone would put anybody down... In contrast, we would try to put everybody up...
by putting a "unvalidated" sticker on their hack thread? oh ++++ wait i should go back and check the first post to make sure you've not changed your mind about that one so i can 'argumentize' with you properly ;)

calorie

08-02-2005, 12:06 PM

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 12:09 PM

"SELECT * FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "user WHERE userid = $bbuserinfo[userid]"you shouldn't encapulate numbers but at the same time "SELECT * FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "user WHERE userid = " . intval($bbuserinfo[userid]) . ""would probably be the stardard set for a gold-star according to this thread :o

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:11 PM

What an arrogant statement, I don't care if a hack is one line, you should still test it. No one is that perfect, allthough it's obvious some think they are.

Ah... I see. So, should I test $a = 2 + 2;, every time I write it? That would be just pointless.

And we all know Kirby's hacks work right the first time, huh, buddy?

I didn't test much of Kirby's hacks, but if you see some of mine you will see that they work right from the first install... Unless there are some addons on requests that I implement...

wait i should go back and check the first post to make sure you've not changed your mind about that one so i can 'argumentize' with you properly

Exactly. As I stated in that same post you just quoted, there would be no stickers on the non-passed posts... You just skipped over it, huh? Way to go, buddy.

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 12:14 PM

Exactly. As I stated in that same post you just quoted, there would be no stickers on the non-passed posts... You just skipped over it, huh? Way to go, buddy.
my bad you just said you weren't the idea leader thus that really held no weight, unless i decided so, ok bud ;)

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:15 PM

"SELECT * FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "user WHERE userid = '$bbuserinfo[userid]'"
"SELECT * FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "user WHERE userid = $bbuserinfo[userid]"
"SELECT * FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "user WHERE userid = ".$bbuserinfo['userid']

I'd say, the one that takes the least space.
However, every one of these would do, even though I personally prefer the first and second ways of doing it. They are neater than the third one. The third way of doing it often ends up in parse error because you accidentally forgot to put a closing ' " ', or because you put an extra concatenation symbol...

It doesn't have to be so sophisticated... All the three ways would count as the right ways to do it.

you shouldn't encapulate numbers but at the same time
SQL Query: (how to run queries)

"SELECT * FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "user WHERE userid = " . intval($bbuserinfo[userid]) . ""

would probably be the stardard set for a gold-star according to this thread

This is an intended exaggeration... Why do you imply that I would intval() something that is already an integer???

my bad you just said you weren't the idea leader thus that really held no weight, unless i decided so, ok bu

Shut the f*ck up and stop trying to say that I said what I didn't say. Thanks.

Andreas

08-02-2005, 12:20 PM

And we all know Kirby's hacks work right the first time, huh, buddy? ;)
No they don't, and I never said they do.
Just wanted to point out that it is possible, although I guess nobody would ever even think of proofing their Code.
This is only being done for really important software like some parts or Aircraft Firmware.

Christine

08-02-2005, 12:20 PM

i do wonder though, for all the people looking to take those elevated positions, how often are you found in the PHP forum helping out the coders who are begging for help? Given the tone of how some of these suggestions are being presented, I would recommend that *IF* anything like this is ever implemented, nomination to the "QA" team be based on their activities/helpfulness in the Help Me Finish forum (assuming one is opened for 3.5). ;)

As a new coder (who is not afraid to ask for help), I can assure you that I will gladly take the assistance/advice of someone posting to help me LONG before someone cutting my head off so that their ego is satisfied (again, reference TONE).

Carry on.

:)

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 12:20 PM

Shut the f*ck up and stop trying to say that I said what I didn't say. Thanks.
Wow you seem to be getting a bit stressed there, you might wanna reel in that temper just a little bit, i mean after all asking to judge peoples hacks and you can't even muster up the people skills to last a debate on the concept, ouch, this site would really be going down hill.

Andreas

08-02-2005, 12:23 PM

The Geek

08-02-2005, 12:24 PM

This is getting seriously moronic.

If there is a security fault... Mark it.
If there are ways to improve the efficiency... suggest it.
If you dont like the code style...go make your own.

Who really cares if the style isnt standard? Who is really going to open the code up and say 'damn, I wish I would have known this didnt use the coding standards before I installed it!'.

If the validators are so hot at writing code their time would be better spent writing it and not grading others.

I would opt out of the system just to spite - but thats the kind of lame coder I am :)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:25 PM

Come on, what kind of language is that... You are a moderator. Set a good example... ;)

I just wanted to see if I could bypass the censorship for that word. And crapola sounded too kiddie-like. ;)

Andreas

08-02-2005, 12:28 PM

I think "Coding Style" (eg. indention etc.) isn't thaaat important.
Of course it makes reading/debugging the code easier if it is "clean", however you could always prettyprint it?

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:29 PM

No they don't, and I never said they do.
Just wanted to point out that it is possible, although I guess nobody would ever even think of proofing their Code.
This is only being done for really important software like some parts or Aircraft Firmware.

Good point. Less important software we can always debug later... ;) If there is a need for it.

As a new coder (who is not afraid to ask for help), I can assure you that I will gladly take the assistance/advice of someone posting to help me LONG before someone cutting my head off so that their ego is satisfied (again, reference TONE).

Hey, where'd you get head cutting part from? :P

Wow you seem to be getting a bit stressed there, you might wanna reel in that temper just a little bit, i mean after all asking to judge peoples hacks and you can't even muster up the people skills to last a debate on the concept, ouch, this site would really be going down hill.

You see, anybody would get annoyed when someone "glues" irrelevant pieces of text together and waves them in front of your nose. You are wrong though, I am not getting stressed out. Now as I said, shut the f*ck up. Thanks.

The 2nd one complies with vBulletin coding standards.

Good, the we use the 2nd one.

Who is really going to open the code up and say 'damn, I wish I would have known this didnt use the coding standards before I installed it!'.

The coders will. I'd like you to recall the coding style of vBulletin 2 and compare it with vBulletin 3. Which one is easier to modify? This:

if ($a) {
while ($b = $c)
{
echo "!!!!!"; }
}
else { print "yo";
}

or this

if ($a)
{
while ($b = $c)
{
echo "!!!!!";
}
}
else
{
print "yo";
}

There you go. :)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:30 PM

I didn't test much of Kirby's hacks, but if you see some of mine you will see that they work right from the first install... Unless there are some addons on requests that I implement...

I was only kidding Kirby in that remark. Kirby does excellent work and his stuff always works. But to say that every hack/mod you do ALWAYS works the first time, is not only arrogant, but false. If it hasn't happened yet, it will, you can be sure.

Exactly. As I stated in that same post you just quoted, there would be no stickers on the non-passed posts... You just skipped over it, huh? Way to go, buddy.

Putting stickers (labels) on passed ones is the same as putting a fail sticker on one that doesn't pass. You are still labeling, no matter how you look at it.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:32 PM

No they don't, and I never said they do.
Just wanted to point out that it is possible, although I guess nobody would ever even think of proofing their Code.
This is only being done for really important software like some parts or Aircraft Firmware.

Kirby, relax. I was just trying to get your goat since you got as late start in here. ;)

Read a few posts down. ;)

The Geek

08-02-2005, 12:33 PM

The point is that only mod authors look at the code to modify.

jelsoft encourages people to modify and create macks - therefore the importance of a standard for them. Mod authors (free ones especially) have the right to not give a toss if others want to modify their modifications thereby making the coding style argument moot.

As for enforcing a code style so its easy to debug your own code... who cares as by the time it hits the proverbial shelf, it shouldnt need debugging anymore anyway.

Im not overly bothered to spend an extra day respacing, tabbing and tweaking my code so someone can give me a 'good boy' sticker. I would rather move on to something else that would benefit my users or the vb community.

If it works as intended then who cares where the freaking curley braces are?

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:34 PM

I was only kidding Kirby in that remark. Kirby does excellent work and his stuff always works.
I know :) Esspecially the HowTo's :)

But to say that every hack/mod you do ALWAYS works the first time, is not only arrogant, but false. If it hasn't happened yet, it will, you can be sure.
I did not say that it ALWAYS works. Show me where I said "ALWAYS"... Thanks.

The Geek

08-02-2005, 12:35 PM

ooo better idea!!!!

Have the 'QA' team simply reformat the code to the correct style!

That accomplishes everyones needs:
1- The QA people have macks that are standardized
2- The authors can move on to far more important issues like making more macks.

Whoot!

yoyoyoyo

08-02-2005, 12:36 PM

Come on, what kind of language is that... You are a moderator. Set a good example... Shut the f*ck up and stop trying to say that I said what I didn't say. Thanks.
Pot <--> kettle

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:36 PM

f it works as intended then who cares where the freaking curley braces are?

I do... When the "freaking curley braces" are where they shouldn't be, I cannot read the code and therefore I cannot be sure that you did not put any spyware or viruses into it.

Pot <--> kettle

lol yea. If a moderator may, then so may I ...

ooo better idea!!!!

Have the 'QA' team simply reformat the code to the correct style!

That accomplishes everyones needs:
1- The QA people have macks that are standardized
2- The authors can move on to far more important issues like making more macks.

Whoot!

That'd be a no, because QA does not have that much time..

Andreas

08-02-2005, 12:37 PM

The coders will. I'd like you to recall the coding style of vBulletin 2 and compare it with vBulletin 3. Which one is easier to modify? This:

if ($a) {
while ($b = $c)
{
echo "!!!!!"; }
}
else { print "yo";
}

or this

if ($a)
{
while ($b = $c)
{
echo "!!!!!";
}
}
else
{
print "yo";
}

Obviously the 2nd one, as it is easier to read.
However, as already said, you could just use a prettyprinter to transform Code #1.

calorie

08-02-2005, 12:38 PM

The 2nd one complies with vBulletin coding standards.
Yep, it does, but if error reporting is E_ALL only...

The point being that X's standards may not be Y's standards may not be Z's standards. If a hack doesn't pose a security risk, let style be as it may. If a hack does pose a security risk, see this (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=83253).

yoyoyoyo

08-02-2005, 12:38 PM

I do... When the "freaking curley braces" are where they shouldn't be, I cannot read the code and therefore I cannot be sure that you did not put any spyware or viruses into it.better notify symantec about the curley brace virus! :D

sabret00the

08-02-2005, 12:38 PM

Pot <--> kettle

echo'd thoughts.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:40 PM

I did not say that it ALWAYS works. Show me where I said "ALWAYS"... Thanks.

I guess I was referring to this statement by you earlier.

I didn't test much of Kirby's hacks, but if you see some of mine you will see that they work right from the first install... Unless there are some addons on requests that I implement...

Did I interpret it worng? ;)

The Geek

08-02-2005, 12:41 PM

At least this process would get rid of all that spyware that makes it into all those macks out there. Heck, I wasnt even going to install anymore macks becasue of the amount of spyware people include in them.

In fact, there are at least 0 out of over 500 macks that I can think of that come packed in spyware.

Seems an awfull lot of work to prevent a phobia ;)

I dont mean to be so sarcastic... I just think its all a bit silly. Then again... I am a freak.

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:45 PM

However, as already said, you could just use a prettyprinter to transform Code #1.

What's a prettyprinter?

The point being that X's standards may not be Y's standards may not be Z's standards. If a hack doesn't pose a security risk, let style be as it may. If a hack does pose a security risk, see this.

I have coded a few automated CMS systems, and according to my experience it is much easier to pinpoint security issues in well-formed code, because when you make a poorly formed code, you can hardly understand it yourself. Unless it is a code that performs an addition of 2 and 2 and outputs it if $_GET['do_add'] is set...

better notify symantec about the curley brace virus!

Good idea except the fact that Symantec does not make anti-viruses for Linux...

Yep, it does, but if error reporting is E_ALL only...

If it is not E_ALL, there is still an error, it's just not echoed...

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:45 PM

Yes you are, and be proud! ;)

For everyone else, I edited the word form my post so the Mod didn't swear. You have no proof now. ;)

yoyoyoyo

08-02-2005, 12:46 PM

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:48 PM

I didn't test much of Kirby's hacks, but if you see some of mine you will see that they work right from the first install... Unless there are some addons on requests that I implement...

It doesn't say always. ;)

I dont mean to be so sarcastic... I just think its all a bit silly. Then again... I am a freak.

By saying viruses, I mean something like:

$DB_site->query("DELETE * FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "post ORDER BY dateline DESC LIMIT 1000 ;");

or

.. after opening a folder and while reading every file in it..
unlink($file);

For everyone else, I edited the word form my post so the Mod didn't swear. You have no proof now.

Doesn't matter to me. I'll say what I wanna say regardless of what the "Mod" says thinks about it.

The Geek

08-02-2005, 12:49 PM

LMAO- next we will probably see "Geek's Spyware and Virus Environment" G-SAVE :D j/k

Great idea - but I doubt it would ever make it past the QA team as I would purposely include extra curly braces for the shear titilation of it.

It doesn't say always. ;)

By saying viruses, I mean something like:

$DB_site->query("DELETE * FROM " . TABLE_PREFIX . "post ORDER BY dateline DESC LIMIT 1000 ;");

or

.. after opening a folder and while reading every file in it..
unlink($file);

Doesn't matter to me. I'll say what I wanna say regardless of what the "Mod" says thinks about it.

How many macks out here delete all your posts or files?

You might as well check for macks that sneak out and get lashed at night. If the whole QA debate is to ensure someone doesnt delete my post table, then this discussion is wasting even more of my time than I thought.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:53 PM

Doesn't matter to me. I'll say what I wanna say regardless of what the "Mod" says thinks about it.

Within reason you will. ;)

Dream

08-02-2005, 12:54 PM

I like the idea of reviewing peoples code as Id like to improve mine, but no one is going to follow a 10 page style guide

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:55 PM

Great idea - but I doubt it would ever make it past the QA team as I would purposely include extra curly braces for the shear titilation of it.

How many macks out here delete all your posts or files?

You might as well check for macks that sneak out and get lashed at night. If the whole QA debate is to ensure someone doesnt delete my post table, then this discussion is wasting even more of my time than I thought.

I have never seen a hack/mod or anything here that attempted anything like what was suggested. And to suggest someone would purposely do something like that is beyond me. ;)

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:56 PM

How many macks out here delete all your posts or files?

What's a mack???

If the whole QA debate is to ensure someone doesnt delete my post table, then this discussion is wasting even more of my time than I thought.

LMAO. You are right, don't participate in this discussion. Oh, and will you now say that I am forcing you to participate in it?

Within reason you will.

Reason depends on the personal preference ;)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:58 PM

DV, let's go out for a smoke and get you calmed down. It's getting a little tense in here, buddy. ;)

bigcurt

08-02-2005, 12:58 PM

I believe this thread is getting way out of hand..if a member wants to express his views to the community..FINE..but it is different when some "+++++++" (Yes, I called you an +++++++ ) come here WANTING to be just that..I have NEVER seen you make one procuctive thread where in the end you didnt turn out to be an ass. See revan is expressing his views just fine without being an A**hole about it. I am getting sick and tired of hearing you call sabretoothe, hellsatan and everyone else names and telling them to shut up. I think this thread should be locked due to getting severely offtopic and starting trouble...if you want to talk more about this make another thread, dont continue to be an ass to the people who contribute to this communtiy...whether this thread is locked is up to the mods.

~Curt

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 12:59 PM

I have never seen a hack/mod or anything here that attempted anything like what was suggested. And to suggest someone would purposely do something like that is beyond me.

Why do people make viruses that erase data? Just for the heck of it. Or if you really hate someone :)

I like the idea of reviewing peoples code as Id like to improve mine, but no one is going to follow a 10 page style guide

It could be shortened to be one one page, straight and to the point.. Or, even better, in one sentence :)

DV, let's go out for a smoke and get you calmed down. It's getting a little tense in here, buddy.

Ahh.. Thanks, I really appreciate the offer but I don't smoke ;)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 12:59 PM

ooohhh, bc used the +. LOL

Boofo

08-02-2005, 01:01 PM

Why do people make viruses that erase data? Just for the heck of it. Or if you really hate someone :)

But nobody has ever even tried that here that I know of so why are you so paranoid about it happeneing now? ;)

bigcurt

08-02-2005, 01:02 PM

Ya and I am sorry for being a little rude to everyone else who ISNT an a**, but its the truth.

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 01:03 PM

But nobody has ever even tried that here that I know of so why are you so paranoid about it happeneing now?

Ah... Too bad. Ya'll missed a lot of fun. I guess I'll get to be the first to do it ;) And I'll have all the hack code in one line, just for those who like it. :D

Boofo

08-02-2005, 01:07 PM

LOL And I believe you would do that just to prove it happened here. LOL

bigcurt

08-02-2005, 01:09 PM

<a href="http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.phpi/463c5922/arguing.jpg&cb=1115204527" target="_blank">http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922
</a>

Boofo

08-02-2005, 01:11 PM

http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922
(http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.phpi/463c5922/arguing.jpg&cb=1115204527)

Couldn't have said it better myself. ;)

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 01:12 PM

LOL And I believe you would do that just to prove it happened here. LOL

Precisely. :)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 01:16 PM

* Boofo marks any mod by DV as null-in-void. ;)

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 01:21 PM

* Boofo marks and mod by DV as null-in-void.

Mark it whatever you feel like, I will still release it under a guise of a useful hack.

Andreas

08-02-2005, 01:23 PM

@Dark Visor
A prettyprinter is a Software/Script that parses source-code, and outputs it again formatted as you specify/like.
For exampe, a well-known prettyprinter for HTML is HTMLTidy.

bigcurt

08-02-2005, 01:24 PM

Then that will show how useless you really are 0_o.

~Curt

southernlady

08-02-2005, 01:24 PM

I'm not a coder and can NOT read the code any one of the coders post so I have to rely on what is posted by the coders who post.

If a mod or a plug in does NOT work because a piece of the code is in the wrong place, *I* have NO clue how to fix it. And 99 times OUT of 100, I come back in here and get YELLED at by the coder cause they think it's MY fault for trying to install their mod/plugin the wrong way.

Example: I just HAPPENED to notice when I was looking at the detail listing of my files that one of the mods I had downloaded from here had the ext of xml.xml. Now how in the *bloody hell* is that MY fault? Had we had an oversight committee, I don't think that would have gotten thru.

I don't think a labeling system is a good idea. Just don't let the codes that are not valid out to the public, plain and simple. I mentioned comparing it to the DL, well you wouldn't let a non driver out on the road, why let a code that isn't ready out to the public to be downloaded? And if you are uncomfortable with who has volunteered, then nominate a committee or something.

If a community like phpbb can do it, surely we can. Are we too soft to follow the standards set by Jelsoft? Jelsoft wants it's vbulletin to be XHTLM 1.0 transitional W3C compliant.

Yelling at each other and calling each other names arent showing the regular members who happen to be reading this thread any professionalism. A suggestion was made that has valid points and it has become a shouting match.

Gentlemen/Ladies, come down off your high horse and grow up. If you are coders by profession, then coding to a standard will not be a problem, it would be an honor. It would mean that you have met Jelsoft's standards. Liz

Logikos

08-02-2005, 01:25 PM

Wait a second. DV are you bluntly stating that you will release code that will destroy a users database. Such as post, threads, forums, ect... ?

Boofo

08-02-2005, 01:27 PM

The standards aren't the problem. Labeling coders is. ;)

bigcurt

08-02-2005, 01:29 PM

Wait a second. DV are you bluntly stating that you will release code that will destroy a users database. Such as post, threads, forums, ect... ?

That is exactly what he is saying.

amykhar

08-02-2005, 01:31 PM

When it's all said and done, nobody minds that you want to improve the code on this site Dark. What is torking people is that you seem to need some official title and label to do it.

When Kirby makes suggestions about my code, I listen to it. He has earned my respect and I know he knows his stuff. He doesn't need a label, and I don't get the feeling that he's running around judging code. I get the feeling that he's interested in the mod and is entering a conversation about improving it. No label. No committee. Just better code when he's done.

You don't need a committee to improve the code here. You need manners, a good reputation and tact. (I'm not saying you don't have those things. I'm just saying that anybody who is going to run around making corrections needs them.)

The last go around with the committee idea was killed by ego. And, I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling this go around either.

One final point, I could care less about the coding style of the mods posted here. Why? What I am looking for is IDEAS. I am looking for the creative mind that comes up with things that make vbulletin better. I seldom use mods exactly as they are written. You wouldn't recognize a lot of the Inferno Quiz any more on my site. I've gutted it and made it what I need. Zero's coding style is certainly nothing like Jelsoft's , but it's clearly organized and easy to read. Good enough for me.

And, if your labels drive away even one coder, this place loses. Such a small minority contributes anything around here so as it is. RELEASE good code as examples. Help improve the mods you use. Contribute. Be a peer and not a judge. You get the results you want, and you haven't insulted anybody.

Amy

The Geek

08-02-2005, 01:33 PM

What's a mack???

Its to satifsy all the wackos that insist on debating 'is it a mod or a hack?'.

LMAO. You are right, don't participate in this discussion. Oh, and will you now say that I am forcing you to participate in it?

Much in the same way a train wreck forces you to stare.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 01:33 PM

A very wise lady just made that post. Good one, Amy. ;)

bigcurt

08-02-2005, 01:34 PM

Logikos

08-02-2005, 01:36 PM

You don't need a committee to improve the code here. You need manners, a good reputation and tact.

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Kirby has helped me many times in my threads with code. Hes not judging me, he is telling me there is an eaiser way to do what I did. And it's up too me if i want to update my code. Normaly, I will...

southernlady

08-02-2005, 01:47 PM

One final point, I could care less about the coding style of the mods posted here. Why? What I am looking for is IDEAS. I am looking for the creative mind that comes up with things that make vbulletin better. I seldom use mods exactly as they are written.

That's because YOU are a coder...some of us HAVE to use the codes EXACTLY as written, Amy, we have NO OPTION! We are NOT coders, remember?

I've never said use a label. I simple said do not release non-valid code to the unsuspecting public. Liz

amykhar

08-02-2005, 01:52 PM

That's because YOU are a coder...some of us HAVE to use the codes EXACTLY as written, Amy, we have NO OPTION! We are NOT coders, remember?

I've never said use a label. I simple said do not release non-valid code to the unsuspecting public. Liz

You may be right. This site probably needs a warning label. It should clearly say that the code released here is written by unpaid hobbyists. Use it at your own risk. But, that's a different topic.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 01:53 PM

That's because YOU are a coder...some of us HAVE to use the codes EXACTLY as written, Amy, we have NO OPTION! We are NOT coders, remember?

I've never said use a label. I simple said do not release non-valid code to the unsuspecting public. Liz

I am all for the system if they can do it without labeling anyone. ;)

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 01:54 PM

@Dark Visor
A prettyprinter is a Software/Script that parses source-code, and outputs it again formatted as you specify/like.
For exampe, a well-known prettyprinter for HTML is HTMLTidy.

Is there one for PHP?

Wait a second. DV are you bluntly stating that you will release code that will destroy a users database. Such as post, threads, forums, ect... ?

Yap. And you may never know which one of my hacks will have the destroying code, cause from now on I am going to release all my hacks one-lined and hopefully double-encoded with ionCube and Zend. ;)

What is torking people is that you seem to need some official title and label to do it.

I never said that I want a title. What I want is an ability to mark hack threads as either "optimized" or "not optimized"... This mark does not necessarily need to be output into HTML, but the end-users should have an option to filter out the threads with that mark, using a specially formed URL or a usercp option.

See, those who care about their board should have a right to know how safe is it to install a certain hack. They should, therefore, have an option to filter out only those hack threads that have been marked as "optimized".

I, personally, care how well my board runs and that's why I think twice before installing any hacks that have unoptimized code or queries... This is why I click "INSTALL" on so many hacks without actually installing them later. I click it just because I like the idea and would like to review the hack later and see if it is worth installing (taking into account the code).

If the majority of this community's members do not care about their board, it's either because they are end-users who do not know much about programming, because they are end-users who are obsessed with installing all different kinds of hacks on their board, or because they are coders who care only to quickly finish the code and receive the results, without actually caring how safe or right the code is. Often the latter end up in writing "2 + 2 + 4 - 1 + 10 - 1" instead of simply writing "2 + 14".

Those, who want their boards clean, should in my opinion have the opportunity to know what they are installing without having to download the hack and read through its code, esspecially if they are not programmers and for that reason simply are not able to do it...

Paul M

08-02-2005, 01:54 PM

I've never said use a label. I simple said do not release non-valid code to the unsuspecting public. Liz"non-valid" is a label.

There is no need for this - vb.org seems to have survived without this for a number of years - and as this thread clearly demostrates, all it will do is cause division and bad feeling.

yoyoyoyo

08-02-2005, 02:03 PM

I am all for the system if they can do it without labeling anyone. ;)I agree- as I stated earlier in this thread, a "beta- please help me with this hack" forum would be great! no stigma, no labels- just learning/teaching community helping kinda stuff.

southernlady

08-02-2005, 02:05 PM

Why is everyone so afraid of labels? You use them already under your name. Coder, Adv.Coder, etc. What's the problem? Are you afraid of being found out? Liz

Boofo

08-02-2005, 02:10 PM

Why is everyone so afraid of labels? You use them already under your name. Coder, Adv.Coder, etc. What's the problem? Are you afraid of being found out? Liz

No, Liz, I have no problem getting my code checked. But think of the newbies first starting out. How many of them would even think about doing another hack if they were labeled in public and felt humiliated because they didn't know as much as the more advanced coders do? Most of the people involved in this discussion have been there and would not have gotten to where they are now if they had been "labeled" in the beginning.

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 02:11 PM

Why is everyone so afraid of labels? You use them already under your name. Coder, Adv.Coder, etc. What's the problem? Are you afraid of being found out? Liz

Yes, they are afraid of stepping up.. They want to just do those hacks and receive gratitutudes from unsuspecting public that does not know what's inside.

No, Liz, I have no problem getting my code checked. But think of the newbies first starting out. How many of them would even think about doing another hack if they were labeled in public and felt humiliated because they didn't know as much as the more advanced coders do? Most of the people involved in this discussion have been there and would not have gotten to where they are now if they had been "labeled" in the beginning.

I am labeled as "Coder" instead of "Adv.Coder" or whatsoever. So what? I don't really care.

southernlady

08-02-2005, 02:14 PM

That's where you have the test forum...they go there first. If they can't pass the test forum, then they don't have the stigma of failing *in public*. Liz

Boofo

08-02-2005, 02:16 PM

Well, you finally got me, DV. I give up. It doesn't seem this is going anywhere anymore so I'll leave you all to it. Good luck with it. ;)

Logikos

08-02-2005, 02:16 PM

The Coder, Adv Coder, and Master Coder only seems to encourage users to create more hacks. I've never seen a user complain about being labeled because of there user title.

amykhar

08-02-2005, 02:23 PM

I've never seen a user complain about being labeled because of there user title.

I have ;)

Chris M

08-02-2005, 02:24 PM

Wait a second. DV are you bluntly stating that you will release code that will destroy a users database. Such as post, threads, forums, ect... ?Yap. And you may never know which one of my hacks will have the destroying code, cause from now on I am going to release all my hacks one-lined and hopefully double-encoded with ionCube and Zend.
This will be my last post in this thread - In response to your threats of causing harm to someone's database I will be reporting you to several members of the Jelsoft staff for these threats...

You can argue your ideas and thoughts about so called valid code all day long - You refuse to understand the viewpoints of people who I consider to have more worth and who I respect who also happen to share my concerns - We can see yours, and are responding with the downside...

Should such a system be implemented, I shall no longer release modifications here, and will remove any that I have - If people wish to view or use my modifications I shall either host them on my own site, or band together with other respected coders to create a vBulletin.org-esque site free from these labels...

What you fail to realise is that this community has been going for almost 4 years - In these 4 years, up until now, such a system has been unnecessary - We have managed without it and we still can...

I hope you enjoy arguing your viewpoint - I can't see any good coming from it...

Satan

Andreas

08-02-2005, 02:25 PM

Is there one for PHP?
I guess there are dozens.
Here a few (from the first Hit returned by Google :D)
http://www.bierkandt.org/beautify/
http://www.tote-taste.de/X-Project/beautify/
http://www.semdesigns.com/Products/Formatters/PHPFormatter.html

Btw: I think everybody should try to clam down.
This discussion is getting way too hot, and that's not worth it IMHO.

I think there are valid points on both sides, but enforcing some kind of labeling seems to out of question.

I can't see why there shouldn't be some opt-in system for those who would like to have their Hacks reviewed/rated?.
That should hurt nobody, would be of benefit for Coders and Users - and those willing to review Hacks have smth. to do :)

Logikos

08-02-2005, 02:30 PM

Boofo

08-02-2005, 02:37 PM

I guess there are dozens.
Here a few (from the first Hit returned by Google :D)
http://www.bierkandt.org/beautify/
http://www.tote-taste.de/X-Project/beautify/
http://www.semdesigns.com/Products/Formatters/PHPFormatter.html

Btw: I think everybody should try to clam down.
This discussion is getting way too hot, and that's not worth it IMHO.

I think there are valid points on both sides, but enforcing some kind of labeling seems to out of question.

But I can't see why there shouldn't be some opt-in system for those who would like to have their Hacks reviewed/rated.

I agree with you, Kirby. I think having someone help you see where you can make it better is a great idea. I just don't agree with labeling anyone for not knowing as much as someone else already does.

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 02:37 PM

This will be my last post in this thread - In response to your threats of causing harm to someone's database I will be reporting you to several members of the Jelsoft staff for these threats...

Do it, if it will make you sleep better :) Good luck.

That statement really gets to me. I've already reported that statement to Jelsoft. I now know not to ever use any of your hacks.

Chill, son. It was a joke. Seriously, who in their right mind would even think of double-encoding their scripts?

Should such a system be implemented, I shall no longer release modifications here, and will remove any that I have

Does it look like I am supposed to care?

I have

That would be a minority, consisting of those who have no will-power to stand out. All I can do is express my condolences towards them.

KirbyDE, Boofo

Thanks :)

--

Now would you please make a test run of the system? After all, 6 people have said "yes", and we can awlays cancel it if it doesn't work out. As already said, it can be without any visual labels, even though it would be better if there were some labels (the ones Revan suggested).

But I can't see why there shouldn't be some opt-in system for those who would like to have their Hacks reviewed/rated.

Exactly!

Boofo

08-02-2005, 02:39 PM

No labels, and you have my support. ;)

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 02:41 PM

No labels, and you have my support.

I'd agree to no labels as long as there is an optional filter, available to everyone. The same way as there in a option "Display Last X Threads", "Sort by X" etc..

Logikos

08-02-2005, 02:42 PM

Chill, son. It was a joke. Seriously, who in their right mind would even think of double-encoding their scripts?

double-encoding your scripts isn't what gets to me.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 02:44 PM

It's still a label. ;)

Maybe helping us learn the proper coding techniques will pay off more in the end that trying to start labeling anyone. ;)

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 02:53 PM

double-encoding your scripts isn't what gets to me.

Ah... I see. Then we have a serious problem ;)

Maybe helping us learn the proper coding techniques will pay off more in the end that trying to start labeling anyone.

Waste of time. The techniques are available at vbulletin.com and you know it.

Revan

08-02-2005, 02:56 PM

Boofo

08-02-2005, 02:56 PM

By, us, I didn't necessarily mean me. ;)

Boofo

08-02-2005, 02:57 PM

Dream

08-02-2005, 02:59 PM

Waste of time. The techniques are available at vbulletin.com and you know it.

where is that info

southernlady

08-02-2005, 02:59 PM

Well, by trial and error, *I'VE* already figured out who to avoid around here. Liz

Andreas

08-02-2005, 03:01 PM

In the Manual, Appendix 4 (vBulletin Code Standards)
http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/codestandards

southernlady

08-02-2005, 03:04 PM

Kirby, has it been updated to 3.5? Liz

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 03:05 PM

What I really want to know is:
How is it possible to show to the end-user - which is for whom we are even discussing this in the first place - that a hack has been Verified/Approved/Optimised/$vbphrase[whatever_the_bluest_of_fks_youd_call_it], without adding a label of some sorts?

You can't... :( But you can still filter them out. Which is unnoticable.

By, us, I didn't necessarily mean me.

Of course you did. Come on, Mod, take responsibility for your words. ;)

where is that info

http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/codestandards

Well, by trial and error, *I'VE* already figured out who to avoid around here. Liz

Care to share? :P

Kirby, has it been updated to 3.5? Liz

Even though I am not Kirby, no it was not updated. I don't think anything has changed...

Alan @ CIT

08-02-2005, 03:06 PM

One things that does come to mind about such a system is PHPBB's mod-approval system. I remember reading a post in which someone from their "QA" team said "Due to the amount of mods in the queue waiting to be processed, it may take a month or more before they are released" (or words to that effect)

If such a system where put in place here, then the same problem could occur.

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 03:07 PM

southernlady

08-02-2005, 03:09 PM

DV, no, I'm not into embarrassing anyone. It's enough that I know that I won't touch that person's code or mods. Liz

Andreas

08-02-2005, 03:10 PM

Even though I am not Kirby, no it was not updated. I don't think anything has changed...
globalize became $vbulletin->input->clean_[array_]gpc() and $DB_site became $db, but those changes are pretty minor - just the examples need an update.

Dream

08-02-2005, 03:11 PM

DV, no, I'm not into embarrassing anyone. It's enough that I know that I won't touch that person's code or mods. Liz

is it me

southernlady

08-02-2005, 03:16 PM

Like I said, I'm not saying.

If the code was clean, I wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place, now would I? Liz

Dream

08-02-2005, 03:20 PM

http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/codestandards

lol some of those suxxorz bad

if you are to judge code based on that you are out of your mind rofl

roflmao

* Dream goes do something else

Boofo

08-02-2005, 03:20 PM

We all need to chill out. We're not getting anywhere now. This thread is on the verge of getting closed, I think. It has been discussed/argued about all it can be for now.

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 03:24 PM

We all need to chill out. We're not getting anywhere now. This thread is on the verge of getting closed, I think. It has been discussed/argued about all it can be for now.

Why close thread? If anybody has something to say, just let them. ://

Boofo

08-02-2005, 03:27 PM

southernlady

08-02-2005, 03:29 PM

That doesn't mean it has to be closed...we can, however, take a break from it for now. If someone NEW comes along and has a FRESH thought? Liz

akanevsky

08-02-2005, 03:29 PM

Because it's just rehashing everything all over again and again. And too many people have lashed out in here at one another. We should just agree to disagree and leave it at that for now, don't you think?

Okay then let's all agree to doing the filter, and then you can close the thread if you like .. :)

That doesn't mean it has to be closed...we can, however, take a break from it for now. If someone NEW comes along and has a FRESH thought? Liz

Yeah.

Boofo

08-02-2005, 03:33 PM

Sorry, I won't agree to a filter. ;)

@Liz - I have no problem leaving it open if the jabs and hostility stops. We'll see how it goes for now. ;)

Princeton

08-02-2005, 03:50 PM

I'll be the first one to admit that I'm still learning -- 10 years from now, I'll still be learning.

What's 'standard/valid/safe' today will not necessarily be 'standard/valid/safe' tomorrow.

Although I agree with some points, I think a system like this will fail and die out within a few weeks if ever implemented. You are counting on 'volunteer' resources that come and go.

vb.org/volunteers should NOT:
Tell people how to code.
Tell people which mod to install.
They should however, empower others with knowledge.

The average vbulletin member (users):
The majority of users are not interested in 'standards' -- they don't even know what it is.
The majority of users are only looking for additional functions/features to add on their existing board. They will install regardless of 'labels'.

What they need are guides and/or how-to's regarding 'standards', security, php, xhtml, css, xml, xss, etc, etc. Knowledge is Power. With this 'power' users can come up with their own conclusion regarding any mod.

Here's what I suggest:
There should be an Article/Guide/How-To section.
It should be clearly stated.
This section should be found within the upper-half of the page.
You should direct all members to it (registration email, pm, post, etc).
A 'security' article should be stickied GLOBALLY or prepended automatically on every mod thread.
the PREMIUM forum :down: - anyone can get their mod listed
it's misleading - 'premium' has a 'superior quality' connotation to it (NOTE: I'm not saying that what is there now is not 'quality'.)
To a new member, it would appear as if vb.org gave it a 'thumbs up' or is endorsing it. Yea, I know there is a 'more info' but how many users actually take the time to read it -- especially, when PREMIUM is in BOLD?
I would move all the mods back to FULL RELEASES (however, mod authors should stay with the same options as they have within the PREMIUM section) eg. a 'supported' mod forum found in PREMIUM moved into PORTAL SOFTWARE as a sub-forum
A mod can be 'supported' today but that doesn't mean that the author will 'support' it tomorrow. What then?

just my (counting fingers) 1-2-3?;

Marco van Herwaarden

08-02-2005, 03:53 PM

Yap. And you may never know which one of my hacks will have the destroying code, cause from now on I am going to release all my hacks one-lined and hopefully double-encoded with ionCube and Zend.
@Dark Visor,

One more time a statement like that from you, even if you see it as a 'joke', and i will not hesitate to use the ban button on you, and either remove your hacks or mark them. And i am not talking about the encoding part, because encoded hacks wouldn't be allowed here anyway.

@all
Please try to discuss this subject on facts without repeating yourself over and over again. Name calling or insinuation will not help anybody, and otherwise there is no other option then to close this thread (and DV, that would mean we will not be implementing anything).

Boofo

08-02-2005, 03:54 PM

Now THAT I can live with. No labels. ;)

Zachery

08-02-2005, 03:57 PM

I think this thread has out lasted its usefulness.

If you want to start another discussion about 3.0 > 3.5 codeing, or coding standard in general please do so. But lets not let it turn into this again.

Dark Visor, you should be aware that we do NOT allow any encoded scripts here period, and releasing one that would damage a users database in some way could be very deteramental to your status here as well as couild get you into some legal troulbe down the way.

Wayne Luke

08-02-2005, 06:07 PM

Hacks are supposed to be quick and dirty solutions to immediate problems. As such applying coding standards to them is not appropriate. It is up to each individual add-on author to decide what level of skill they want to apply their work when it is released.

On the flipside it is up the forum owner to guarantee the safety and security of their site. If they are going to be applying hacks and addons then they should educate themselves in how to do so safely.

It is not up to the volunteers of this site to review and secure every line of code. There should be enough peer review to handle that without making it an official requirement.

Erwin

08-02-2005, 10:54 PM

Erwin's last word:

I go to bed last night, and wake up to a 15 page thread since my last post.

I want to go on record to say that it is totally unbelieveable and unacceptable that a member of this community would threaten to release a hack that deletes someone else's database, even if it's meant to be a joke, just because other members disagree with his view. Some may find this funny, but for a forum admin, security is a serious issue.

This is a community. We do take member feedback seriously. I was in fact seriously considering this issue. However, it does appear that the majority of members are NOT in favour of such a QA system, even if it's voluntary.

Nevertheless, making threats, even half-jokingly, because you do not get your way, does not help anybody in their cause. Please discuss things in a more mature way without resorting to ad hominem attacks, swearing and threatening others.