Plugin vs. Code modification

[tamarian]

Last time I saw this discussed, it was stated something like this "If there are no code modifications for vbulletin files, then it's a plugin in".

Is this still the case, or has it been changed?

The way things have been moved and shuffled between plugins and code changes forums, it's hard to say what criteria is being applied in moving them.

[Dream]

btw, most of my scripts are upload-only... any chance we get a "upload-only" category

[Link14716]

It seems some of the staff think that if it requires uploading a file, it's a code modification. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense because a code modification, by definition, would have to modify code, and you'd have to upload the plugin .xml in your admin cp anyways.

Honestly, I say it can't be classed as a code modification unless it modifies code, everything else is a plugin or a template mod. Classifying something as a plugin or a template mod is a bit more difficult, but still not hard.

Apparently, the staff are discussing this now. Hopefully, someone uses logic, because there are several plugins that were moved to code mods when they aren't modifying code.

[Chris M]

But technically if they require you to upload files they aren't "plugins" either - The idea of a plugin is you plug it in and it works ;)

Satan

[Reeve of shinra]

But how would you plug it in without uploading it? Obviously if a user can upload the files to thier server, they should be smart enough to upload a file :)

[Chris M]

But how would you plug it in without uploading it? Obviously if a user can upload the files to thier server, they should be smart enough to upload a file :)
Theres a difference between uploading a .xml format plugin through the Admin CP and connecting via FTP to upload a .php file to a specified folder - You don't have to be a genius to use a "Browse, Find, Select, Open, Submit" routine to install a plugin ;)

You may require some intelligence to open up an FTP connection to your site though, although limited, we do have to respect that some users IQs are the cube of 1 ;):p

Satan

[Andreas]

we do have to respect that some users IQs are the cube of 1

ROFLOL.
Hmm, I might be too dumb, but I don't use FTP ... for my Server?

[Chris M]

ROFLOL.
Hmm, I might be too dumb, but I don't use FTP ... for my Server?
What do you use then Kirby? :)

Satan

[Andreas]

Scp?

[Chris M]

Ok :p

I'm not ashamed to admit I use FTP :)

Mostly because I like the ability to be lazy and go "copy", "paste" :p

Satan

[Andreas]

Erm, you are aware of WinSCP?
From the GUI point of View, there is not much of a difference to any FTP Client ...

[Chris M]

I am aware of it yes :)

I just am happy to get along with Windows's standard FTP - Most people hate it but it is extremely simple to use :p

Satan

[tamarian]

But technically if they require you to upload files they aren't "plugins" either - The idea of a plugin is you plug it in and it works ;)

This is not true. Many "plugins" require you to upload an installer file to run, before being able to use the "plugin".

So you have plugins with no uploads, and plugins with uplaods.

We may also need a 3rd category (no code modification), since many of the hacks in "code modification" contain no code modification. Example, vB Survey, you just upload it, run install, then call the new file survey.php from any template..

So it does not use the new vB plugin system, but it does not require code modification either.

As a user, I would saty away from it, since it's listed as a code modification, and I may prefer not to modify my vB code. This would be misleading to members, since it requires no code modification whatsover, neither to vB, or anything else, yet thay are labeled "code modification".

[Dream]

Example, vB Survey, you just upload it, run install, then call the new file survey.php from any template..

out of curiosity, does it change the database?

[tamarian]

out of curiosity, does it change the database?

It does not change vBulletin's tables, but it adds it's own new tables.

Many of the hacks listed under plugins modify vB tables :)

[Chris M]

This is not true. Many "plugins" require you to upload an installer file to run, before being able to use the "plugin".

So you have plugins with no uploads, and plugins with uplaods.

We may also need a 3rd category (no code modification), since many of the hacks in "code modification" contain no code modification. Example, vB Survey, you just upload it, run install, then call the new file survey.php from any template..

So it does not use the new vB plugin system, but it does not require code modification either.

As a user, I would saty away from it, since it's listed as a code modification, and I may prefer not to modify my vB code. This would be misleading to members, since it requires no code modification whatsover, neither to vB, or anything else, yet thay are labeled "code modification".
The same can be said for some existing vB3 and vB2 hacks though - They actually modify no existing vBulletin code, but simply use the vBulletin template system and database structure to function :)

I believe a third forum is required though - Plugins, Code Modifications and Forum Extensions...

Technically, since it does not alter vBulletin code, nor "Plug in" directly, it extends the functionality of the forum through using the vBulletin system to power itself and provide functionality ;)

Satan

[Dream]

The same can be said for some existing vB3 and vB2 hacks though - They actually modify no existing vBulletin code, but simply use the vBulletin template system and database structure to function :)

I believe a third forum is required though - Plugins, Code Modifications and Forum Extensions...

Technically, since it does not alter vBulletin code, nor "Plug in" directly, it extends the functionality of the forum through using the vBulletin system to power itself and provide functionality ;)

I dont think mods that change the database would fall in that category though, unless its a new table with a really wierd name that will never be used by vBulletin itself. imo anyway

[tamarian]

The same can be said for some existing vB3 and vB2 hacks though - They actually modify no existing vBulletin code, but simply use the vBulletin template system and database structure to function :)

I believe a third forum is required though - Plugins, Code Modifications and Forum Extensions...

Technically, since it does not alter vBulletin code, nor "Plug in" directly, it extends the functionality of the forum through using the vBulletin system to power itself and provide functionality ;)

Satan

I think we're in agreement here that a 3rd classification is required, and "extensions" does sound good, but also sounds a bit like "plugin" :)

vB2 and vB3 didn't have this issue, since they were classified by functionality (forum home, admin, thread etc)

[Paul M]

It seems very simple to me - if an existing file is edited its a code modification, otherwise it goes in the the plugins section (uploading new files is not editing, it's plugging in new files). Is it really so hard ?

[Logikos]

It seems very simple to me - if an existing file is edited its a code modification, otherwise it goes in the the plugins section (uploading new files is not editing, it's plugging in new files). Is it really so hard ?
Paul M Said it. Why is this so misunderstanding. There should be 2 cats. 1. Code Mods. If your hack edits one line or more of the orignal PHP code. Then its a code mod. Otherwise its not. Guess we'll have to wait untill the admins come on....

[Reeve of shinra]

It should be one catagory for version 3.5 hacks and plugins with the typical directly structure of /admin /misc /caldander /forumdisplay etc. -- in the thread list it hsould say whether it alters templates or db or files.

I am begining to see a need for the download database.

[Guest190829]

I completely agree with Paul M, uploading files are not modifying existing code!

[Logikos]

It should be one catagory for version 3.5 hacks and plugins with the typical directly structure of /admin /misc /caldander /forumdisplay etc. -- in the thread list it hsould say whether it alters templates or db or files.

I am begining to see a need for the download database.
Things will change when 3.5.0 Gold is released...

[Link14716]

It seems very simple to me - if an existing file is edited its a code modification, otherwise it goes in the the plugins section (uploading new files is not editing, it's plugging in new files). Is it really so hard ?
Apparently it is.

[Erwin]

Staff are discussing this.

My personal view is that we can divide hacks into the following 4 types:

1. Code modifications - modify vB source code - will not be officially supported by Jelsoft and takes longer to upgrade.

2. Plugins - uses hooks, may have additional PHP files, no source code mod.

3. Addons - additional PHP files, no hooks, no source code mods.

4. Template mods

We are basically missing an Addon forum - I am lobbying to have one added for now. When we have the new hack database up and running when we go to 3.5 we will be using tags which means we can mix and match the above. For example, some hacks will have a plugin, an addon and a source code mod. Members will be able to sort between the different types or in combination. But for now, we may need another forum.

[tamarian]

1. Code modifications - modify vB source code - will not be officially supported by Jelsoft and takes longer to upgrade.

2. Plugins - uses hooks, may have additional PHP files, no source code mod.

3. Addons - additional PHP files, no hooks, no source code mods.

4. Template mods

But let's not use the name "addon". On vb.org, "addon" has a specific meaning from past usage. It's means the hack is an addon to another major hack. Like the "Add-On Releases" forum under vB3: "Support threads for Hack Add-ons are in here."

Maybe "integrated mods" or a better name...

[Dream]

"standalone scripts"

[Chris M]

Extensions ;)

Satan

[twoseven]

how about: Files that dont require any code modification
that seems short enough :)

[Chris M]

Yes - Addons, Extensions, Standalone Scripts, or Files that don't require any code modification :ermm:

I think the first 3 are more likely :p

Satan

[Paul M]

"extensions" seems logical. :)

[Chris M]

"extensions" seems logical. :)
Indeed, as you are extending the functionality of vBulletin ;)

Satan

[Regs]

This place is whacked, I swear... Talk about over-complicating something that should be so simple!

Tell me, how many vB.org staff members does it take to change a light bulb?

:D

[tamarian]

We are basically missing an Addon forum - I am lobbying to have one added for now.

Erwin, this sentence was stuck in my mind for a while, as I was wondering who does Erwin have to lobby? I mean the hacks were moved ovenight from plugins to code midification without any word. And now the vb.org admins need to lobby to get it back or add a 3rd category?

I honetly mean no disrespect by asking this, but who is making these dicisions for vb.org? I can understand vb.com would want certain controls for licensing reasons, but other than that, the hack authors here (that would include staff and us non staff equally) should be the ones deciding on what happens with our work..

The recent closed discussion and the insulting idea that "authors may exploit members" and ending the discussion with "this is how it's going to be for now" does further my concerns that mod authors no longer have any say on how their work would be handled, and decisions would be made on their behalf without consultation with them or without even an explanation until the deed is done.

Categoris and classification issues would pale in comparison to having external sources dictate things, (or by some staff) despite what is best for mod authors and mod users, with no consultation, and this new attitude by staff ("this is how it's going to be", "stop talking about it", "what do you need it for?" etc....).

[Dream]

Plug-ins
if (ONLY plug-ins || ONLY(plug-ins && template mods))


Plug-n-Play - if (ONLY plug-ins)
Code Mods
if (php code modifications)

Extensions
if (ONLY upload files || ONLY(upload files && (template mods || plug-ins))

AdminCP Extensions made by Dream ;)

[Xenon]

Name: Extensions ^^

and to answer your question Tamarian:
The hacks were moved, because of one reason: within the plugin releases just real plugins should be (speak, you can add them just via admincp)
Not every admin of a board has FTP access as well, that's why there are different admin permissions since vb3 as well.

moving extra files into the modification forum is just the way it was before 3.5
additional files have been in the code modification forums as well, noone complaint.

Of course it's a bit messy right now, but you should all realize, that vb3.5 is still in BETA.
during vb3 we didn't even allow releases of hacks.
We're working on our new Database system, which would make all those discussions here irrelevant, as it will use tags instead of forumseparations. You see we already started to do so when you edit a hack, and have to tick checkboxes. There will be some more in the future.
Because no matter what separation we will do right now, there will always be hybrids: template and plugin, plugin and extension, extension and code mod.....
we cannot create one forum for every single possibility, thats why we are discussion the best intermediate way within the staff, and as the staff is not one person, everyone has a bit different pov about what would be the best way

[Chris M]

This place is whacked, I swear... Talk about over-complicating something that should be so simple!

Tell me, how many vB.org staff members does it take to change a light bulb?

:D
4,945 :)

Purely because you would require that many users online to get a total feedback of one message per second to annoy the actual user trying to change the lightbulb ;)

Btw: w00t - Extensions!:D

Satan

[tamarian]

Of course it's a bit messy right now, but you should all realize, that vb3.5 is still in BETA.

Fair enough, even though 3.5 may not go gold for several months.

I guess my comment was about some fundamentals in forum management:

1. Do you guys want vb.org to be suitable to vb.org staff first and foremost, or do you want it to be suitable for vb.org staff, members, developers, style artists, and all hack/mod/plugin/style users.

2. Do you want vb.org to be outstanding in it's offerings and capabilities, or do you want to just meat the minimum needs, nothing beyond what is is absolutely required.

I hope you'd throw this in for a quick check in your meetings.

The majority of vb.org members (all members) run various online communities and are aware of the dynamics of successful online communities. They are your friends, not "the others", and can be very helpful simply by the knowledge and experience they have.

You may gain a lot of insight if you simply announce your plans in advance and seek their input and feedback, they may surprise you by ideas and solution you never thought of, and make things a lot easier for everyone. Not to change things first, and say "that's how it" is later, or "what do you need that for..", or "stop talking about it".. etc..

[Erwin]

I was going to use the term "Uploads" but "Extensions" sound heaps better... let me go change it now...

[Erwin]

Refer to this announcement on the terms to be used:
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=91582

This should standardise it so people know what everyone is talking about. :)

[Erwin]

Erwin, this sentence was stuck in my mind for a while, as I was wondering who does Erwin have to lobby? I mean the hacks were moved ovenight from plugins to code midification without any word. And now the vb.org admins need to lobby to get it back or add a 3rd category?

I honetly mean no disrespect by asking this, but who is making these dicisions for vb.org? I can understand vb.com would want certain controls for licensing reasons, but other than that, the hack authors here (that would include staff and us non staff equally) should be the ones deciding on what happens with our work..

The recent closed discussion and the insulting idea that "authors may exploit members" and ending the discussion with "this is how it's going to be for now" does further my concerns that mod authors no longer have any say on how their work would be handled, and decisions would be made on their behalf without consultation with them or without even an explanation until the deed is done.

Categoris and classification issues would pale in comparison to having external sources dictate things, (or by some staff) despite what is best for mod authors and mod users, with no consultation, and this new attitude by staff ("this is how it's going to be", "stop talking about it", "what do you need it for?" etc....).
The hacks were moved because ever since the start of this site, any file uploads were considered a "hack". A "hack" has always been associated with "hacking a file". When 3.5 came out with "plugins" this caused some confusion amongst everyone, both members and staff.

No one could agree what a plugin hack should be defined as - technically, it can be a hack that only uses hooks with no code or file uploads but some may argue it should be used for any hacks that usess hooks, even if there is code modification.

This issue will be moot with the new database-like frontend for vB.org when we go to 3.5 since a hack may at that time have multiple categories at once - "plugin", "file upload", "code modification"...

But for the moment, to make it easier for people, we decided on the category definitions as posted in the announcement linked in the previous post.

As for why I have to lobby... Amongst vB.org staff, we discuss things like this. :) Even though I am an Admin, I do not "walk over" the moderators here - I listen to them, and if I want something, I have to put forth my own arguments - hence "lobby". :) I agree with most of you that "extensions" or "upload hacks" should be classified separately. Remember, they have never been classified separately for many years - it's only now that we have decided to do so.

Also, to touch on your issue of having mod authors' work "being dictated by an external force" - don't tell us we don't listen because we do. :) We are adding database front-end, adding this new "extension" classification, etc. because of member feedback.

As staff of a forum like this, obviously we need to administrate it the best we can - but members are very free and more than welcome to suggest ideas etc. I for one am open to all ideas and suggestions.

As forum admins, we all understand these issues I am sure.

Hope that explains it.

[Reeve of shinra]

We're working on our new Database system


That sounds good. Hopefully it will solve alot of the problems that will come with finding stuff. :)

[Erwin]

The new database classifies hacks using a dynamic flag system.

So for example, if a hack uses hooks, template changes, phrase changes, file upload and code mods, you can choose to sort hacks to be displayed according to all of the above.

Or you can choose to display only plugins with no file uploads.

Or plugins with code mods.

Or just hacks that uses file uploads and no hooks.

The idea is you choose what sort of hacks you want so that the people who want to avoid modifying vB source code can choose to do so.

It should be very flexible. :) That's the idea anyway.