3.5 Upgrade regarding vb.org

[WhSox21]

As everyone knows, it's coming soon. What are the plans for vb.org? Will there be another area for those hacks? Is vb.org ready for these 'plugins' to be placed on the site? Will we be refering to the hacks as plugins now? Will we still have a 'POTM'? I'm just want to know if vb.org is going to be prepared for the release?

[Zachery]

As everyone knows, it's coming soon. What are the plans for vb.org? Will there be another area for those hacks? Is vb.org ready for these 'plugins' to be placed on the site? Will we be refering to the hacks as plugins now? Will we still have a 'POTM'? I'm just want to know if vb.org is going to be prepared for the release?
How about letting us see 3.5 before we have policys for it?

I would Imagine that we will have the same policy that we did during the vBulletin 3 betas, eg: no hacks for 3.5

[David_R]

How about letting us see 3.5 before we have policys for it?
just quoting this line... :)

[Zachery]

just quoting this line... :)
It just urks me atad that everyone is asking if every hack will be ported to 3.5, we need to give the coders time to see the code before they can make a clear anwser.

[Logikos]

Even if i wanted to port any of my hacks i couldn't even try as 3.5 isn't out yet and i have no clue what the code will look like. 3.0.0 suprised me alot, so i'm sure this will be an even bigger suprise to get used to. I would imagine that vB.org will do what they did durin the beta stages of 3.0 like Zachery said, this gives us coders time to get used to the new code and figure out where things are.

[Regs]

Erm, what's so difficult with making a new forum called 3.5 Hacks? Am I missing something here?

Talk about jumping down some dude's throat for no reason!

This place is going to hell in a hand basket.

:D

[WhSox21]

I'm speaking from a coder's perspective. I can almost guarentee that my HelpDesk hack will take little code modification for me to re-release under 3.5. I'm not hassling any of the coders as I know that it takes a good amount of our time.

I was just thinking that because of an almost complete re-write of the code, well it would be best to create new forums for the hacks. I personally would like to re-release my hacks so that they're capable for 3.5 ASAP.

I was in no way trying to get the coders and myself on the ball to release the hacks the same day it's released.

[Logikos]

Erm, what's so difficult with making a new forum called 3.5 Hacks? Am I missing something here?

Talk about jumping down some dude's throat for no reason!

This place is going to hell in a hand basket.

:D
No one was jumping down anyones throat. At least i hope he don't feel that i did cause i wasn't trying to.

[Paul M]

I would Imagine that we will have the same policy that we did during the vBulletin 3 betas, eg: no hacks for 3.5Erm, no hacks ???

Am I missing something here - why on earth not ???? - are you trying to encourage everyone to go elsewhere.

I'm very puzzled .............

[WhSox21]

Well they are betas, which should not be used under a production site. But, the fact is, we should also have hacks released so they are tested on the beta software in order to help kill possible bugs.

I personally think we should have somewhere to release the 3.5 hacks.

[Link14716]

Erm, no hacks ???

Am I missing something here - why on earth not ???? - are you trying to encourage everyone to go elsewhere.

I'm very puzzled .............
He meant no hacks for the vB 3.5 Betas will be allowed to be released here - the same policy that was used for vB3 until Release Candidate 1. Then again, Zachery is probably just guessing.

[cinq]

I just don't understand all these questions about whether and when the porting of hacks will be. ( not re:WhSox21's first post though )
3.5 isn't even in any released beta stage yet. None of us less the developers and a priviledged few have seen the code. So why bother speculating now ? :)

And in reply to WhSox21's question, I'm sure vb.org will soon have a 3.5 section as well, to better organize hacks, since codebase has changed somewhat and not all hacks ( and users themselves ) may be ready to move to 3.5 compliant coding standards. We'll just have to wait and see, won't we :)

[mholtum]

Erm, what's so difficult with making a new forum called 3.5 Hacks? Am I missing something here? I am sure they will ONCE IT IS OUT OF BETA. Considering the BETA hasnt even been released yet, we will all jsut have to wait.



This place is going to hell in a hand basket.

:D
I fail to see that.

[Paul M]

He meant no hacks for the vB 3.5 Betas will be allowed to be released here - the same policy that was used for vB3 until Release Candidate 1. Then again, Zachery is probably just guessing.Well that still seems daft to me.

Isn't this why vb.org has a beta hacks forum ? - how can you get people to test hacks for 3.5 if you can't release them. Crazy.

[Brad]

Well that still seems daft to me.

Isn't this why vb.org has a beta hacks forum ? - how can you get people to test hacks for 3.5 if you can't release them. Crazy.
The beta forum is for coders to release hacks that are not yet 'ready', it does not refer to vBulletin beta releases.

When 3.0.0 was in beta we did not allow hacks to be posted for version 3 here, I asume we will do the same for 3.5 but that is not set in stone.

Once we see what 3.5 is really all about we will alter things as needed.

[Paul M]

The beta forum is for coders to release hacks that are not yet 'ready', it does not refer to vBulletin beta releases.Yes I realised that - what I mean is that if the vB version is beta, then any hacks for it must also be considered as beta. :)

When 3.0.0 was in beta we did not allow hacks to be posted for version 3 hereSo I heard, and I still don't understand the reasoning for this.

I asume we will do the same for 3.5 but that is not set in stone.I certainly hope not.

Once we see what 3.5 is really all about we will alter things as needed.Good.

[Zachery]

Yes I realised that - what I mean is that if the vB version is beta, then any hacks for it must also be considered as beta. :)

So I heard, and I still don't understand the reasoning for this.

I certainly hope not.

Good.
Letting users hack their beta boards only causes problems(as in releasing hacks here, ect). I cannot remember how many times people posting on vB.org for vB3 beta support were having problems (above and beyond normal) because of hacking.

In my response to the jumping down someones throat, I've seen quite a few posts, not specificly by you, but others asking for 3.5 support. Its not here yet, don't ask, because we don't know either, but as soon as we do know, we will tell you, we promise :D

[Paul M]

I've seen quite a few posts, not specificly by you, but others asking for 3.5 support. Not at all by me ;)

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Providing hacks for Beta Software somehow defeats the purpose of a Beta. Beta software is released so bugs can be sorted before going into RC state. If you would modify Beta's with hacks, there will be no good reference for the coders of vB3.5 Beta anymore.

There is something to say to allow this in this special case with vB3.5 however. Since one of the improvements in vB3.5 is theway Hacks can be incorperated into it, it would be nice if that part of the software could be tested during Beta stage also.

[rjordan]

I personally agree to not have hacks until the RC comes out. I imaging what vB.org would do is create a new category under which 3.5 hacks would be posted; much like the current v2 hacks vs v3 hacks categories are now.

Then again, I also agree that we need to wait for the code. As anxious as all of us are (me included), let us not try to break it before it comes out.

My opinions.

[WhSox21]

Alright, on the other topic. I know it's been debated in the past but now vBulletin has kind of layed it out for us. Will 'hacks' now be known as plugins? Will we be moved in that direction of naming? I'm just curious on this, it means nothing other than to satisfy my curiousity.

[sabret00the]

[removed: none of my business really]

The beta forum is for coders to release hacks that are not yet 'ready', it does not refer to vBulletin beta releases.

When 3.0.0 was in beta we did not allow hacks to be posted for version 3 here, I asume we will do the same for 3.5 but that is not set in stone.

Once we see what 3.5 is really all about we will alter things as needed.
from what we saw the current trend was that everyone hacked their betas anyway, we all knew that if you hack a beta you can't go to vb.com and ask for support and we acknowledged that when we made the mods, infact i'm pretty sure that a few people released betas as rc1 hacks as soon as it was allowed, saying that it's a half version not a full version, i see no reason not to allow users to share the modifications they'll make, vb.org is supposed to be about the user not the product (which vb.com is) penalising the user is rather pointless, if someone made it and they wanna share it, why should you say no? as i said theirs a vast difference from 2.2.x -> 3.0 and 3.0.x -> 3.5. it's even been said over at vb.com that it's likely to be minimal code changes as in find/replace for making 3.0 hacks 3.5 compatible.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

it's even been said over at vb.com that it's likely to be minimal code changes as in find/replace for making 3.0 hacks 3.5 compatible.
Could you link me to the post where that was said?

PS I hope your bad day will be over tomorrow again.

[sabret00the]

Could you link me to the post where that was said?

PS I hope your bad day will be over tomorrow again.
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=866252&postcount=458 in reference too http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=866249&postcount=457

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Sorry but they are saying "most", so not all can be handled by find/replace. And there is no mention of "minimal code changes".

Edit: If this was true, then it would defeat one of the major new features of vB3.5.

One of the new features of vB3.5 will be that Hacks can more easily plugin instead of needing a lot of editing in original source files. If hacks could be ported with just a find/replace, that would mean that these hacks are still doing all those code edits. That would be against the new setup of vB3.5

[sabret00the]

Sorry but they are saying "most", so not all can be handled by find/replace. And there is no mention of "minimal code changes".
don't shoot the messenger :p
it's even been said over at vb.com that it's likely to be minimal code changes as in find/replace for making 3.0 hacks 3.5 compatible.

Edit: If this was true, then it would defeat one of the major new features of vB3.5.

One of the new features of vB3.5 will be that Hacks can more easily plugin instead of needing a lot of editing in original source files. If hacks could be ported with just a find/replace, that would mean that these hacks are still doing all those code edits. That would be against the new setup of vB3.5
i myself seldom install hacks that need alot of source code editing, however the ones i have installed that have needed that are of no major issue.

i.e. i wouldn't mind if they were hacked or plugged in. all in all it's no skin off my nose what method someone uses to upgrade their hacks as long as it works, most of the more vital hacks installed on my board are more of a matter of one or two source code edits or simple slipping in a directory and plugging and playing anyway.

my personal suggestion would be to split the forums and/or have another hack install button called plug in install, that way it's easy to differentiate between source code mod hacks and plug in hacks.

but hey at this time it's all speculation and with a dev saying it's find/replace i'm looking forward to the easy life. :nervous:

[Link14716]

Personally, I think hacks using the new plugin structure (and have no file edits) should be allowed for 3.5, however hacks with file edits should not be allowed until an RC at the earliest. Gah, we need new terminology.

[WhSox21]

Anything that requires file edits I think should remain named hacks. Anything that will work with no file edits should be called plugins. There should be two different forums (when this happens, in my opinion) where people can release each of the different types. I'm sure some people will just quit installing some of the hacks that require file edits and only use the ones that use plugins so just to keep it easier I think they should be sorted or marked some how in the showthread template.

[Sebastian]

if vbulletin.org doesnt allow hacks for vb3.5 beta i will just create a hack site where people can submit hacks... simple put... who is to stop me.

this place is going down the crap hole and im sure im not the only one getting sick of it.

it should be up to the coder and the person installing the hack whether they feel like making or installing the hacks in the first place..

[Zachery]

if vbulletin.org doesnt allow hacks for vb3.5 beta i will just create a hack site where people can submit hacks... simple put... who is to stop me.

this place is going down the crap hole and im sure im not the only one getting sick of it.

it should be up to the coder and the person installing the hack whether they feel like making or installing the hacks in the first place..
The same policy was here under the betas of 3.0

If you really thiung this place is going down the "crap hole" go suggest some ideas for us to make it better ? :)

[Link14716]

if vbulletin.org doesnt allow hacks for vb3.5 beta i will just create a hack site where people can submit hacks... simple put... who is to stop me.

this place is going down the crap hole and im sure im not the only one getting sick of it.

it should be up to the coder and the person installing the hack whether they feel like making or installing the hacks in the first place..
The reason hacks for betas are generally not allowed is because, guess what, it's a beta! Betas are released to test code, and installing hacks compromises that objective. You can install hacks on a beta, you can even make a hack site for it, but you probably won't find hacks for betas here.

[mholtum]

if vbulletin.org doesnt allow hacks for vb3.5 beta i will just create a hack site where people can submit hacks... simple put... who is to stop me.Have at it. Nobody will stop you.

this place is going down the crap hole and im sure im not the only one getting sick of it.I dont see that happening. That is your opinion and you have every right to feel that way.

it should be up to the coder and the person installing the hack whether they feel like making or installing the hacks in the first place..And nobody is stopping them. VB.ORG just doesnt want them distributed here. And that is their right, as it is their site.

I still have no idea why people are getting bent over a product that isnt even available in the Beta stage yet.. :ermm:

[dsboyce8624]

Well, I'm not a coder, I'm a hack installer (aka Greedy User of Other Peoples Work.). And I think I like the idea of not having all sorts of stuff floating around berfore the final product is even available.

I also like the idea of a strict line being drawn between simple "Plugin" type hacks and those that require code changes. After all, the plugin idea is to make repair/restore after damage easier, and to make upgrades less painfull. I definately want to know before I get all hyped up about a new hack whether or not it will be a code changer.

Just my 2 pennies.

[sabret00the]

this place is going down the crap hole and im sure im not the only one getting sick of it.

it should be up to the coder and the person installing the hack whether they feel like making or installing the hacks in the first place..while yes it should be upto the coder/installee what s/he installs and on what product, you have to remember that this is infact an official jelsoft board despite the fact that no one get's paid or even donations every once in a while (speculation). you can understand that jelsoft may want to discourage users from hacking beta boards, even if like me you're not in disagreement, my personal opinion is that given more time/less lazyness jelsoft would've reskinned but even that is open to debate given just how much can you do and retain ease of customisation?

while this place has many up's and down's and beleive me despite being a regular theirs certain things i think are ++++e, i do beleive we have the right administration team in place, our issues are listened to and commented on, our problems are remedied in most cases and the production rate of hacks is above all expectation given that the coders don't actually get anything in return, please don't blanket the whole site with your discontent at the fault of one or two features/members/staff/etc.

the site is what you make it, whether that's posting, supporting the hackers by installing their scripts and commenting on them or just posting in the lounge, it's a site that is as good as the effort you put in. :)

[Paul M]

Jelsoft, in all their announcements about 3.5, tell us it will be easier to hack, and they will provide more plugin spots as they are required. Please tell be how they intend to test/prove the first, and provide the second, in the beta stage, if no hacks are allowed to try it ....... :)

[sabret00the]

Jelsoft, in all their announcements about 3.5, tell us it will be easier to hack, and they will provide more plugin spots as they are required. Please tell be how they intend to test/prove the first, and provide the second, in the beta stage, if no hacks are allowed to try it ....... :)
if jelsoft were commited to this community the way they should be, they would've made a similar announcement over here which was geared towards the hack community, i mean geez we found out that it was gonna be OOP based from a fan site over this one, i beleive Wayne should be the one talking to Kier telling him that he should put the effort in over here though it's yet to happen, as you said with all of their plans for 3.5 who's gonna be the ones providing the additionals for their customers, us! yet we're yet to receive a single official word regarding 3.5 over here :(

[Logikos]

To clear things up for people who don't seem to understand or is new to vBulletin.

Before vBulletin 3 wasn't even out we had hacks for vBulletin 2. Then vBulletin 3 BETA was out, but the rule for hackers was there will not be any hacks released while vBulletin 3 BETA was still in the BETA stages. The reason this was done was because alot of code changes happen durring any BETA stages of any software. Once vBulletin 3 was GOLD. Hacks where allowed to be submitted here at vBulletin.org because it was out of the beta stages. And any updates afterwards didn't change much code.

Same thing will prolly happen here for vBulletin 3.5. While vBulletin 3.5 is still in the BETA stages, you will most likey not be allowed to release any hacks untill vBulletin 3.5 is out of its BETA stage. I'm sure once vBulletin 3.5 is out of BETA. vBulletin.org will open new forums just for vBulletin 3.5 so things will be organized. Hope this clears things up. I'm not saying this will indeed happen, but im pretty sure this is the way things will go as they went in the past.

Also Sabret00the has some good points. Jelsoft should put more effort into vB.org. But thats another thread. ;)

[Brad]

Jelsoft, in all their announcements about 3.5, tell us it will be easier to hack, and they will provide more plugin spots as they are required. Please tell be how they intend to test/prove the first, and provide the second, in the beta stage, if no hacks are allowed to try it ....... :)
Ever think they are using said hooks themselves, otherwise why add them to the source right? Lets be honest here, they did not add this new stuff just for the hacking community, do you honestly think they will release code without testing it themselves? :)

Not allowing hacks here hurts no one, and prevents more problems then it causes. No one is telling you that you can't hack your own copy of 3.5 beta when it comes out, I'm sure most of the guys around here will be doing so as will I.

The problem with allowing hacks in a beta period are,

1) The public beta is meant to test the new code on a wide scale, allowing people to hack the source may result in many bogus bug reports at vBulletin.com

2) In the beta stages the code will change more often then it does in the 'gold' or 'final' stage.

3) Beta's are for testing, not for boards running in public space (although many run them in public space anyway).

(Again this is not 'set in stone')

[Paul M]

Ever think they are using said hooks themselves, otherwise why add them to the source right? Lets be honest here, they did not add this new stuff just for the hacking community, do you honestly think they will release code without testing it themselves? :)Testing the code themselves is what they do pre beta. Surely the point of a beta is for others to test it. If they didn't add these hooks just for the 'hacking' community then who else did they add them for ? Jelsoft don't need hooks to make changes, they just edit the source.

Not allowing hacks here hurts no one, and prevents more problems then it causes. No one is telling you that you can't hack your own copy of 3.5 beta when it comes out, I'm sure most of the guys around here will be doing so as will I.Allowing them doesn't hurt anyone either. :) Remember that not all hacks are complicated and require lots of code changes. I'm quite sure some will slip very easily into the initially provided hooks.

The problem with allowing hacks in a beta period are,

1) The public beta is meant to test the new code on a wide scale, allowing people to hack the source may result in many bogus bug reports at vBulletin.com

2) In the beta stages the code will change more often then it does in the 'gold' or 'final' stage.

3) Beta's are for testing, not for boards running in public space (although many run them in public space anyway).

(Again this is not 'set in stone')
These are all very nice arguments, but none seem very convincing for actively refusing to host 3.5 hacks while it is beta. You simply have to stipulate that any bug must be shown to exist on an unhacked board, or it will be considered unconfirmed.

Yes, beta's are for testing, and code will change - and 3.5 hacks would be exactly the same - need testing and the code in them may need to change. Surely it is the coders choice as to whether they want to be involved in the extra effort this may entail, and board owners choice as to whether they want to be involved in the extra effort to update any they test/install.

People will start working on new hacks, and existing conversions, as soon as 3.5 is out, and they are going to want others to test their code. If you refuse to allow these people to host them here then they will simply go elsewhere. A loss to the vb.org community. As a side effect these hacks will then also become more readily available to all the 'less honest' boards as well, since no one else has a registration check system.

Anyway, I'm obviously banging my head against the old brick, so I'll say no more on the matter, I have made my points. :)

[Erwin]

1) The public beta is meant to test the new code on a wide scale, allowing people to hack the source may result in many bogus bug reports at vBulletin.com

That's the main reason why when vB3 was in beta we did not allow vB3 hacks posted here at vB.org.

[Erwin]

People will start working on new hacks, and existing conversions, as soon as 3.5 is out, and they are going to want others to test their code. If you refuse to allow these people to host them here then they will simply go elsewhere. A loss to the vb.org community. As a side effect these hacks will then also become more readily available to all the 'less honest' boards as well, since no one else has a registration check system.

Exactly. I agree with you there too.

[Erwin]

The bottom line:

There is NO OFFICIAL POSITION by vBulletin.org YET.

Let's not assume things until we make the announcement one way or the other. :) Feel free to discuss it though.

In the meantime, as this site belongs to Jelsoft, we will discuss with Jelsoft.

It may be that during Beta testing, hacked Beta vB3.5 sites will not be allowed to report bugs.

I shall be discussing this issue as it's an important one.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

In my opinion the best way would be to only allow plugin type of hacks during the beta period.

[Erwin]

We are still discussing this. Just so you know.

[Watson]

Really looking forward to this coming out, I can see alot of potential for people to make some quick cash helping people upgrade and install some hacks again hehehe, I will be one of the payers probably :p

Well done vb team

[Erwin]

Update: This issue is still being discussed. :) No policy decision has been made yet.

[WhSox21]

Thanks for keeping us updated Erwin. :)

[Paul M]

In my opinion the best way would be to only allow plugin type of hacks during the beta period.Seems a sensible option, since this is testing an official method, and not altering the base code.

[Erwin]

Seems a sensible option, since this is testing an official method, and not altering the base code.
True but plugins can only go so far - some hacks will require code editing. It will be good for hack authors to try their best to make their hacks plugin so that upgrading would be easier for everyone though.

[Logikos]

I don't see the plugin system being such a success. I mean, take for an example: Theres a query beeing runned in showthread.php. Would if the hack you create can be added to that same query to do what you want. With the plugin, you would have to run a addtional query.

[WhSox21]

Unless there is a condition that check for such things to include wildcards or something along those lines.

[Brad]

I don't see the plugin system being such a success. I mean, take for an example: Theres a query beeing runned in showthread.php. Would if the hack you create can be added to that same query to do what you want. With the plugin, you would have to run a addtional query.
Sometimes two queries are better then one big one, it all depends on the code and how the db is laid out..

In fact no one has seen the new code yet, so at this point we are all flying blind. ;)

[sabret00the]

I don't see the plugin system being such a success. I mean, take for an example: Theres a query beeing runned in showthread.php. Would if the hack you create can be added to that same query to do what you want. With the plugin, you would have to run a addtional query.
from what i've gathered, you'd probably get a plug-in spot either side of your query (the ones you're most likely to edit) and at that point you could as yours with a conditional leaving theirs in the else ;)

[Erwin]

I don't see the plugin system being such a success. I mean, take for an example: Theres a query beeing runned in showthread.php. Would if the hack you create can be added to that same query to do what you want. With the plugin, you would have to run a addtional query.
Not that I know but I think queries are going to be centralized and sanity checked automatically which makes plugin hacks automatically more secure and you can pull variables in easily without adding new queries. I'm just guessing from what I've read here and there.

[Erwin]

Also, it would appear that most of the current vB3 hacks may actually work in 3.5 as you can switch on a "legacy" mode which makes it use the older none-plugin system code - this will make the code less optimized but old hacks will appear to work until you upgrade them. Again, I cannot confirm this, as I've only read this somewhere.

[GoTTi]

its not gunna be easy to install hacks on 3.5!!!!cuz us coders and designers and hackers love to modify the hell out of our boards ;p so we gunna make it as complicated as we can.

j/k im kinda anticipating this rls.

/me stares and chants "open open open open"

[Erwin]

The decision has more or less been finalised. Pending last minute changes I will make the formal announcement regarding vB 3.5 beta hacks in 24 hours. ;)

[Erwin]

It's official:
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=82489