We loose clients in the Services Requests section...

[nexialys]

Hi, it's just an echoe and a report about the actions of some hacker here that make us loose some clients, and i think it's time for the administration to deal with that.

i am sure you all know who i'm talking about, but i will not name him.

problem is that each time someone request a job to be done, he offer his services and ask to be paid before doing the job... and most of the time, i can say 90% of the times, he never reply the clients and never do the job after being paid.

what i would suggest is that you make a good announcement on that forum so everybody that post a new thread is altered to NEVER pay a hacker until the job is done... i'm already advertising that in my own signature...

what would be very efficient is a little hack that would display the alert/rules on top of the newpost page, so everybody read it each time they post something...

i know we can't control all these stupid lamers that thief everyone, but we can alert the clients to follow a certain technique when paying for a hack.

for the last 3 months, i answered for free to more than 20 clients that were stolen by one or two guys here, and i know exactly who they are...

oh, btw, would it be possible to ban this guy here ?!... i know that clients will not always think to make a report of the actions of that guy, but we all know him... today again a client asked to be served again after that dumpster stole him...

-- i want a clean community... these guys are making us look like thiefs!

[M1th]

Yep, I agree with you there. :tu:

[HiDeo]

I agree with you, I don't ask to be paid before doing the job !

[Brad]

I think some guidlines would be a good idea, but honestly many times clients will rip hackers off to. I can remember 4 times I delivered code and was never paid in return.

Altho vBulletin.org dose not want to get in these transactions for obvious reaons, something on this site like trader ratings (al la ebay) could be useful. Basicly when a hacker decides to preform a service the member they are providing it to could leave a note in their usercp.

For example if I was doing a hack for someone they could leave "Code delivered two days after down payment, I recomend this hacker"

In turn I could leave one in their profile "User sent payment instantly and in full, recomended buyer"

This would allow a would-be-service-requester to do some research on the hacker offering the service, while at the same time the hacker could research what other hackers are saying about this member.

[filburt1]

I strongly suggest only paying after the product has been delivered. Also use PayPal so you can file fraud complaints.

[Xenon]

Well, as said by Brad, we won't do so.
As a hacker you can send the code and get no money. That's possible as well, so it won't help when we say pay after the job...

We can think about enabling user notes for public use maybe, but normally we want to keep away from those things, as we just provide the single forum. Nothing more, everyone is responsible for himself when asking/doing a custom job.

[Logician]

the actions of some hacker here that make us loose some clients
Please note that service requests forum does not stand for coders to make money, it is there so that vbulletin users can find professionals whenever they need such a service. So our primary aim wouldn't be to protect coders' financial benefits here.

Likewise I don't agree that coders should be paid after they deliver the job. If this becomes the custom, then I'm sure there would be complaints of some coders who delivered the job but not ever paid. Because fraud can be committed by everybody, not only coders. I remember there had been once some claims about some people here who hire a coder, get the project, never pay him and find another "victim" coder for further projects.

How people will be paying for a custom coding work is something that service requester and the professional should agree upon. It is not possible to label a method as the only correct way of doing it.

We don't like to involve with the relation between service requester and coder. We are not providing a service in that forum for neither party, we are just giving a communication tool people can use. How they will use is all their responsibilities. However we are allowing our members to post "warning messages" about any fraudalant actions they get through that forum so people are welcomed to post such messages in Lounge forum, if someone is stealing from them.

However I agree that many people are not aware the way of how to find a decent professional service (like ask references, get name/address/phone number and contact personally, see past work, contact with old clients, keep away from unprofessionals, pay only in the methods like cc, paypal etc. that you can file fraud complaints etc.) and we have plans to make sure people will get such a warning text whenever they post a thread there.

[Tigga]

ask references, get name/address/phone number and contact personally, see past work, contact with old clients, keep away from unprofessionals, pay only in the methods like cc, paypal etc. that you can file fraud complaints etc.That's probably the best advice I've seen. I know I (for one) would not do work for a new client without receiving half of the payment up front because it's too easy to get ripped off yourself otherwise.

[Zachery]

That's probably the best advice I've seen. I know I (for one) would not do work for a new client without receiving half of the payment up front because it's too easy to get ripped off yourself otherwise.
Half now, half later is the typical idea unless you have a long standing relationship with a client.

[nexialys]

@Logician... i was not refering to hackers loosing clients, but vBulletin/Jelsoft itself ...

remember, here is a sub-official website for vB... if a client is stolen, he will remember that the community stole him... that's why i focus on that part...

btw, Trade Rating is the best solution for all these problems... clients get comments about not-delivering hackers, and hackers know what client never pay...

if you don't want to protect one side or the other, i will suggest to completely close that forum, so nobody will get hurt. professional hackers like me can easily open a real-commercial web-support site, and that would mean we can protect the client as the hacker from being highjacked...

i already suggested to create a real forum for professionals, most comments i received were positive, but here is the official one, so we need a good reason to open it... i may be interested to start it as more and more clients/hackers have problems with these situations...

[Logician]

I believe it is all about how one see that forum. IMO it should be seen as a communication tool that is provided to vb.org members (coder or service requester), it is not a vb.org "service" we offer to "clients".

It is just like our help support forums: If you are stuck with a hack code, you ask help in our support forums and you get help from many members with different experience or background. You can even get a reply there that will wipe your board off if applied due to the inexperience of the poster but it is your responsibility to maintain safety. We don't close our other forums although there are incorrect or dangerous replies or hacks posted there because we are not providing any support service here but we are just providing a platform where vbulletin owners communicate with eachother.

I agree that trade ratings might cure such problems a bitbut it should always be considered that if someone gets a bad rating, it is not that hard for him to register a new username with a clean rating record. We had such members in the past who registered different usernames when they had a bad reputation here. As you know even we can not easily say who a new user was before if he prefers to remain hidden.

Service requests forum's traffic constantly increases so obviously it is useful to our members hence IMO it is not a good idea to close that forum. I also fail to see how your suggestion about a new forum will help the problem you mentioned here. Let alone curing it, it will just increase the complaints as people will start complaining about the hacks and services posted there as well. ;)

[Dean C]

I was going to make a similar reply today Sinan. You took the words right out of my mouth :)

[Ravish]

How about using escrow?

[Natch]

Escrow - too much of a system to set up, nd who would fund it?

This place is BUYER BEWARE, like anywhere else, and if anything that should be emphasised at the TOP of the service requests forum...

I agree that a Trader RAting system would be useful - even if it's just a Stars system - this could even be slightly complicated by only allowing tw3o members to sumbit ratings if they have both enabled it - and members could be advised not to do business with another member if they have not yet enabled Ratings?

I usually work 1/2 on retainer, 1/2 on delivery and I follow up my work with optimisations if needed/required. This system creates a good client/coder relationship and has made me some good revenue as well as some ongoing clients.

Just a few thoughts... good thread ;)

[MickDoneDee]

I like the idea of leaving a reference in the user notes but I doubt it will be done unless coders ask for it. That is what usually happens with eBay. You get asked by the seller to leave a comment about them regarding the goods and delivery.

When my job is finished I'll add a post to my service request with a reference about the work done including the name of the coder. I feel the coder's name should be made public in the service request thread so new requesters can get references from other requesters who have had jobs done for them.

I've looked at past requests and no-one bothers to add a reference to their request thread when the job is done. This simple task would protect all requesters.

[Colin F]

What MickDoneDee says is true, threads should (also according to forum rules) be updated once the request is filled. If I take a job I also usually write a note to the client asking him to update the thread with a post saying the job is done and a comment on how satisfied he is with my work.
Unfortunatelly, some just never come back, so even if it were a rule to include the name of the coder, it would be rather hard to enforce.

[nexialys]

oh, and btw... i read comments about "hey, a guy can register a new user and come back after if he is banned..."

i faced that situation sooner this year, when i was forced to create a new username because of my company changes... when i offered my help for a service request, some clients were asking me why i was doing so, with 3 or 4 posts made and a new name (2 or 3 days old) ...

you have to prove your points when you are new and offer your talents... if your Trader Rating is empty, that mean you never had clients... and even one single negative comment may help all other clients that search for the right coder...

i see today that another client was thieft by misterX... he posted his comment in the thread related to his service request, but this doesn't mean everybody will read that thread... most of the time, these threads are read by the coders, not the clients...

[Logician]

i see today that another client was thieft by misterX...
If you claim that one of our members are commiting fraud constantly and deliberately by using our service request forum, please PM his name to me.

As I mentioned before, we don't like to get involved into the relationship between requester and the coder so we do NOT promise to solve every complaints about such issues but if we get different complaints from different people about a certain individual and has a strong belief that he is constantly and deliberately doing this, we'll seriously consider banning. So please pm me about what your case. Thanks!