vb.org consent..

[Osterling]

I think vBulletin.org should email all members who have created a hack for vb2 and inform them that they only have two months to submit a working version of there hack for vb3. Because I feel like we are being cut out of hacks because you have creators who no longer care to work on there hacks. I have even talked to a few creators of hacks for vb2 and they said they have no time to create a working version for vb3, and then I ask them if it would be okay for another member to do it, and they said no.

Now this is really unfair, because they choose not to upgrade there hack, and we are stuck because the creator won’t let other members migrate the hack for vb3. I am wondering what vBulletin.org plans to do about this?

[13th_Disciple]

i doubt they would do that.. however, if there is a hack you want, and the original author won't update his, write your own.. make it do all the same things.. as long as you don't copy his code, you are ok, i believe.. i am aware of intellectual property, but i am also aware that a lot of people look for a lot of the same things.. you can't limit ideas just because someone else has the same idea.. so go for it, i say..

[Dark Shogun]

No one holds the patient for an idea. If you are not using ANY of the code from the vb2 version (which you probably wouldn't) then I say go for it weather you are given "permission" or not.

Dark Shogun

[Osterling]

If I would create a hack that has been done in vb2, and release it for vb3, will it be removed?

[Dark Shogun]

I seriously doubt it.

Dark Shogun

[13th_Disciple]

as long as you say it's based off the idea of a vb2 hack and that none of the code from the original hack is contained within yours, what the heck can they say? stop coming up with ideas?

[sabret00the]

it may be, but if the code isn't the same you'll be fine.

[Boofo]

Are you referring to any vB2 hacks in particular?

[Zachariah]

Thats lame idea. IMO

-Think of all the VB2 users that plan not to update to VB3. They will be out in the cold.

- Fork up some "green backs" $40-50$ and I am sure anyone would build you what you need. Time is money. If you can not live w/o a Hack to make your site run like you wish revert to Vb2 or pay ?

-This site is full of people that take time out of their life to give some love to other "members" that own VB by making add-on's. You have no right to "Demand" anything.

-Lastly, you can do what I did. RTFM and take the reins in you own hands by learning some of the LANG needed to work on your own site. Its not rocket science. (If I have no clue: I look it up, ask questions, search google, php.net, mysql.org, MIRC in #php, drink another beer and come back to it later :D )

You will find that more people love to help other people that try and fail than the ones that never try at all ;).

[Boofo]

Excellent post! I couldn't have said it better. ;)

[Scrub]

Everyone wants damn money for anything anymore, which I find pathetic. Several years ago when someone asked for an addon it got made within a few days and was released for free. You may got the ocassional person asking for money, but not like it is today. Cause the average person around here seems to be in school and does not have the money to throw around. If you're not going to upgrade your hack for any damn reason, then by god someone else should be able to do it. And whatever to the responses this post gets.

[Boofo]

I agree with you on the money part. Most of those who request money for a hack here learned how to write those very same hacks they are charging for right here. I miss the good old days when we all did it for the sheer pleasure of it and enjoyed learning together. The money doesn't matter to me, it never has. I've never really had any so I don't miss it. ;)

[Osterling]

-Lastly, you can do what I did. RTFM and take the reins in you own hands by learning some of the LANG needed to work on your own site. Its not rocket science. (If I have no clue: I look it up, ask questions, search google, php.net, mysql.org, MIRC in #php, drink another beer and come back to it later )


I dissagree, I have posted questions in threads about hacks, asking for some support, because I installed it and was getting errors, and I went to the hack thread, and posted my question, and no one replied.. so I cannot see people helping me, even when I put in a honest effort...

[Boofo]

Then you're not asking the right people and not installing the right hacks. ;)

[filburt1]

I dissagree, I have posted questions in threads about hacks, asking for some support, because I installed it and was getting errors, and I went to the hack thread, and posted my question, and no one replied.. so I cannot see people helping me, even when I put in a honest effort...
Hack authors are not obligated to provide support. In my case, I have released over 40 hacks and it would simply not be possible for me to support them.

The vast majority of the time, a hack question has been already answered in its thread.

[Osterling]

I didn't ask the right people... :confused: i posted it smack down in the thread I got the hack from.. where would you suggest me posting my question?

[NTLDR]

If I would create a hack that has been done in vb2, and release it for vb3, will it be removed?

If you are using code from the vB2 hack and don't have permission then yes it will be deleted. If you have written the code from scratch and the hack does similar things a vB2 hack did then its fine to release it here.

[Osterling]

Hack authors are not obligated to provide support. In my case, I have released over 40 hacks and it would simply not be possible for me to support them.

The vast majority of the time, a hack question has been already answered in its thread.


I agree, and I read the entire thread, found my error wasn't talked about yet, so I posted it, but that is leading away from my point. My point is simply, that person said if you try people are more likly to help, and that isn't true.. that is my point.

[Boofo]

That's the problem here now. Everyone who releases a hack anymore feels they're not obligated to provide support. Why release a hack then if you all feel that way? Most of the hacks that get released anymore it seems are subpar in quality and basically to get their hack counts up. If I felt the same way you do, filburt, I would never release a hack here, let alone even visit the site. What happened to the good old days when we all worked together to have fun at this site? The problem is no one seems to remember when we were newbies and didn't know squat. I remember one of your very first hacks. It was the resolve IP hack and if I remember right, I even helped you with some bugs reports on it in the thread and had a blast doing it and learning from it. ;)

We need to all band together and start having fun again or we might as well kiss this place good-bye. ;)

[Scrub]

*Agrees wholeheartedly with Boofo's post*

[13th_Disciple]

We need to all band together and start having fun again or we might as well kiss this place good-bye. ;)

Good point.. and I think that is what will happen if there is not solid consistency.. But I am not one to say as I am just a user who tries to help and learn only to see some people try and belittle others, including myself, because we are not 1337 code hacker wanna-be's..

btw, my hat's off to those like NTLDR that provide solid, genuine support and quality hacks for people.. for free.. i know there are many others, but i have occupied a lot of NTLDRs time and he has always been more than gracious in his responses and patience..

[Boofo]

Yes, NTLDR is one-of-a-kind. If more members here would take after him, I think we could get on the road to recovery here at vb.org. I try, but I'm not anywhere close to being proficient at coding yet. (Just look at my hacks to prove my point. ;))

[Zachery]

That's the problem here now. Everyone who releases a hack anymore feels they're not obligated to provide support. Why release a hack then if you all feel that way? Most of the hacks that get released anymore it seems are subpar in quality and basically to get their hack counts up. If I felt the same way you do, filburt, I would never release a hack here, let alone even visit the site. What happened to the good old days when we all worked together to have fun at this site? The problem is no one seems to remember when we were newbies and didn't know squat. I remember one of your very first hacks. It was the resolve IP hack and if I remember right, I even helped you with some bugs reports on it in the thread and had a blast doing it and learning from it. ;)

We need to all band together and start having fun again or we might as well kiss this place good-bye. ;)
I do my best to support all my hacks (the 2 i have) and i support mYvBindex / vBadvacned constantly :)

[Rose]

Yes, NTLDR is one-of-a-kind. If more members here would take after him, I think we could get on the road to recovery here at vb.org. I try, but I'm not anywhere close to being proficient at coding yet. (Just look at my hacks to prove my point. ;))


You're not so bad, Boofo! I've not seen any of your current works, but you're pretty good imho.

*echos sentiments about NTLDR and his excellant support*

[Boofo]

You're not so bad, Boofo! I've not seen any of your current works, but you're pretty good imho.

*echos sentiments about NTLDR and his excellant support*

You're just saying that because it's true. ;)

I STILL have a lot to learn. My hacks are simple hacks that almost anyone could do. ;)

And where have you been, young lady? ;)

[Rose]

*doesn't veer off topic but mentions work has been keeping me rather busy* love the sig, btw.

Also, I agree with your post above, Boofo, about banding together. It's frustrating for members upgrading to vb3 but would like to keep some of the custom features from vb2 hacks. I realize some of the more proficient coders have too many hacks to rewrite, but if there's no intention of upgrading the hack then why not allow someone else to use it? Everyone says "don't use the same code and it's okay" but ... code is code and I imagine in many cases (not all) some of the same code will have to be used as that's the way it goes. ...

Oh well. I don't write hacks, so I probably shouldn't comment too much.

/me cheers the hack writers and all their efforts and contributions

[Boofo]

The great thing about vB3 though is that quite a few of the hacks we had to install for vB2 are now included in vB3. That makes it a lot easier on deciding what hacks to convert. And with the conditonals, now a lot of the old hacks can be done right in the templates. ;)

[Osterling]

If some one is going to take a vb2 hack, make it work for vb3, and doesn't mention they used part of the vb2 hack, then that is wrong. But if the converter mentions you, as the orginal creator of the hack.. what's the big deal? It's not like they are taking credit for it all, just saying they convereted it over to vb3.

Am I missing something?

[13th_Disciple]

don't use any part of the code itself.. in other words, you create the entire coding for the vB3 version.. no copy paste.. although there are so many changes with vB3, copying and pasting wouldn't be recommended anyway..

[tehste]

NTLDR is one-of-a-kind
I'm new to vb.org and new to vb but I do feel that vb.org needs real change, it is a major asset to vb and part of the reason so many users are attracted to vb and compelled to renew their license.

Hackers vs Hackers: Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out ?300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.

Recent example:
I created a shoutbox addon for vbindex (it adds a shoutbox to the forum home display and also adds top 10 shouters and number of shouts a member has made)
Some of the queries where the same as those via the original vbindex code, have you not heard the expression: Don't reinvent the wheel. The addon did use a large amount of code from vbindex but it was an addon and credit was given, still NTLDR removed the addon. I released this because, I wanted it so I figured someone else may want it. That should be the reason hacks are released. (Unless someone wants a hacker to make a hack)
My addon added atleast 4 major things: shoutcounter, forum home display, forum home shout adding, top ten shouters. It is absurd to remove an addon which adds something just because someone else made it using some of your code.

Hackers Attitude:
This leads on to overall hackers attitude to eachother and to non hackers:

hackers are not on a higher level of existence
hackers should all work to one goal: to further improve vbulletin by releasing addons
hacks do not compete for members to use them
hack counts aren't important

Not sure why some hackers think the above things are not true. But, sad as it is, people can be like that.

support
I enjoy supporting my hack(s), however frustrating, it gives ideas for improvement, bugfixes and improves the community feel of vb.org. Some hackers don't like to support their modifications, and that's fair. Hacks are released under no obligation or warranty, I don't think anyone has the right to complain or demand anything from anyone on this forum.

Basicly I agree with the first post:

- hacks should not have strict ownership aslong as credit is given. Hackers are working together not in competition. Ok it's a male dominated community but why compete over something so pointless.

- vb.org needs to address this issue, the forum does need opening so that there is a clear catagory to talk about making mods and hack in progress areas and other such stuff...

[filburt1]

Am I missing something?
US copyright law is the prohibiting factor here, not vB.org rules, and there isn't a thing that can be dnoe about that.

[Osterling]

I'm new to vb.org and new to vb but I do feel that vb.org needs real change, it is a major asset to vb and part of the reason so many users are attracted to vb and compelled to renew their license.

Hackers vs Hackers: Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out ?300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.

Recent example:
I created a shoutbox addon for vbindex (it adds a shoutbox to the forum home display and also adds top 10 shouters and number of shouts a member has made)
Some of the queries where the same as those via the original vbindex code, have you not heard the expression: Don't reinvent the wheel. The addon did use a large amount of code from vbindex but it was an addon and credit was given, still NTLDR removed the addon. I released this because, I wanted it so I figured someone else may want it. That should be the reason hacks are released. (Unless someone wants a hacker to make a hack)
My addon added atleast 4 major things: shoutcounter, forum home display, forum home shout adding, top ten shouters. It is absurd to remove an addon which adds something just because someone else made it using some of your code.

Hackers Attitude:
This leads on to overall hackers attitude to eachother and to non hackers:

hackers are not on a higher level of existence
hackers should all work to one goal: to further improve vbulletin by releasing addons
hacks do not compete for members to use them
hack counts aren't important

Not sure why some hackers think the above things are not true. But, sad as it is, people can be like that.

support
I enjoy supporting my hack(s), however frustrating, it gives ideas for improvement, bugfixes and improves the community feel of vb.org. Some hackers don't like to support their modifications, and that's fair. Hacks are released under no obligation or warranty, I don't think anyone has the right to complain or demand anything from anyone on this forum.

Basicly I agree with the first post:

- hacks should not have strict ownership aslong as credit is given. Hackers are working together not in competition. Ok it's a male dominated community but why compete over something so pointless.

- vb.org needs to address this issue, the forum does need opening so that there is a clear catagory to talk about making mods and hack in progress areas and other such stuff...

Very Well Said :)

[Geographic2]

I can point out a few GPL packages that people have developed a bit and are now putting this "everythingVB hack" license on.

[quote]
FullAttribution.
You must give the original author credit, visibly on your site.

LimitedDerivs.
You may make derivative works, but you must contact the original author before releasing your alterations.

LimitedTranslation.
You may translate this Hack, but you must contact the original author before releasing your translation.
[quote]

If your hack is on a GPL base the hack must also be GPL am I correct?


PS - WHile you mods and admins are floating round,
when my vb members area access expires on my owned license do I lose access to vb.org?

Am I missing something too? :)

[Chris M]

I'm new to vb.org and new to vb but I do feel that vb.org needs real change, it is a major asset to vb and part of the reason so many users are attracted to vb and compelled to renew their license.

Hackers vs Hackers: Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out ?300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.

Recent example:
I created a shoutbox addon for vbindex (it adds a shoutbox to the forum home display and also adds top 10 shouters and number of shouts a member has made)
Some of the queries where the same as those via the original vbindex code, have you not heard the expression: Don't reinvent the wheel. The addon did use a large amount of code from vbindex but it was an addon and credit was given, still NTLDR removed the addon. I released this because, I wanted it so I figured someone else may want it. That should be the reason hacks are released. (Unless someone wants a hacker to make a hack)
My addon added atleast 4 major things: shoutcounter, forum home display, forum home shout adding, top ten shouters. It is absurd to remove an addon which adds something just because someone else made it using some of your code.

Hackers Attitude:
This leads on to overall hackers attitude to eachother and to non hackers:

hackers are not on a higher level of existence
hackers should all work to one goal: to further improve vbulletin by releasing addons
hacks do not compete for members to use them
hack counts aren't important
Not sure why some hackers think the above things are not true. But, sad as it is, people can be like that.

support
I enjoy supporting my hack(s), however frustrating, it gives ideas for improvement, bugfixes and improves the community feel of vb.org. Some hackers don't like to support their modifications, and that's fair. Hacks are released under no obligation or warranty, I don't think anyone has the right to complain or demand anything from anyone on this forum.

Basicly I agree with the first post:

- hacks should not have strict ownership aslong as credit is given. Hackers are working together not in competition. Ok it's a male dominated community but why compete over something so pointless.

- vb.org needs to address this issue, the forum does need opening so that there is a clear catagory to talk about making mods and hack in progress areas and other such stuff...
Firstly, what does a male dominated community have to do with anything? I fail to see the relevance of this gender bias in this debate...

Secondly, about NTLDR's actions - The vB.org rules state that you are not allowed to modify and/or release without prior consent from the original hack author... That means you should have asked NTLDR before releasing anything which uses code from vBindex...

Thirdly:
Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out ?300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.I think you will find, that if you check the copyright laws thoroughly, all of your works and ideas relating to your works, i.e. code and/or website designs etc, are actually Copyright the person who created them, without the need to "fork out ?300 - 400"...

Check the "Copyright, Design and Patents Act of 1988" (in the UK) for more details...

And finally, please check the rules before you do something which the Mods must take action over - I understand you are new, but we have been abiding by the laws for some time now, and have come to accept them...

I feel it is always the newer members who never seem to get the idea of the history and former community of vB.org :ermm:

Satan

[Wayne Luke]

I, personally, have some ideas about this issue that can resolve some of the issues for future hacks and addons. I will discuss them with the staff here and we will see what kind of solutions we can come up with that will allow hack authors to retain their rights while allowing for abandoned ideas and projects to be picked up by interested developers.

Once that is done, any solutions will be made available to the community.

[Osterling]

I, personally, have some ideas about this issue that can resolve some of the issues for future hacks and addons. I will discuss them with the staff here and we will see what kind of solutions we can come up with that will allow hack authors to retain their rights while allowing for abandoned ideas and projects to be picked up by interested developers.

Once that is done, any solutions will be made available to the community.


thank you

[Geographic2]

Things will be alot better around here if we as hackers here had the attitude of sourceforge than the attitude of microsoft...

[Velocd]

Yes, that would be ideal.

If the following is sort of off-topic, please pardon me, although it's on my mind and I thought I'd voice it.

Most developers at Sourceforge are quite skilled at their programming, and most hackers on these forums aren't. For this site, it creates an environment of amatuer competition, and people who don't like to share.

If vBulletin.org ever wanted to head into the cooperative haven that Sourceforge is, there would have to be an integrated way of creating hack projects. These could be threads, but instead of just containing the regular information of a hack, it contains the group members of the project, progress updates, etc. These threads could be located in a sub-forum maybe called "Unreleased Projects," or something to that flavor, and when the project is finished it can be moved into the actual hack forum for download.

I often see hack-project threads of 4 pages or more posted around where one individual introduces their hack-in-progress and people just talk about it for pages on. What I addressed above sounds like a more formal and effective way of going about things.

The best part of cooperative working, even if it's a group of somewhat inexperienced coders, is that people can help out on another and everyone can benefit and progress their skills.

To be honest though, no vBulletin hack is ever really that large for more than 1 person (that is, if that person is moderate experience in PHP). Still, it's an idea to consider.

[sabret00the]

i think that sums it up, along with Boofo's post about no one wanting to support their hacks anymore

re: filburts comment in reply to supporting hacks; i thought it was your duty as mod to try and get around where possible and offer support where needed across the whole forums, esepcially considering you're a super mod? (genuine question)

i think people really do need to calm down though, maybe going back to my idea about tick boxes, maybe people could tick "you're welcome to use this code in a non-competative hack as long as full credit it given where due"? it would solve so many problems.

as for the vBindex thing, i think it would've been seen as more acceptable if you released it as a find line XXX and and paste to line XXX or something like that, although being that it was actually an add-on i'm not sure what was the problem exactly.

[tehste]

i think that sums it up, along with Boofo's post about no one wanting to support their hacks anymore

re: filburts comment in reply to supporting hacks; i thought it was your duty as mod to try and get around where possible and offer support where needed across the whole forums, esepcially considering you're a super mod? (genuine question)

i think people really do need to calm down though, maybe going back to my idea about tick boxes, maybe people could tick "you're welcome to use this code in a non-competative hack as long as full credit it given where due"? it would solve so many problems.

as for the vBindex thing, i think it would've been seen as more acceptable if you released it as a find line XXX and and paste to line XXX or something like that, although being that it was actually an add-on i'm not sure what was the problem exactly.
the problem was I didnt get permission to release an addon. From the original hack maker. Then when I asked for permission he denied it on the basis i used some of the vbindex code!

Also I'm pretty sure you cant *just* get a copyright without going to a licensing body and paying for the rights. A community simmilar to sourceforge would be much better. There is competition in a community where competition is not needed.

Cant people just work together?

[accyroy]

I feel it is always the newer members who never seem to get the idea of the history and former community of vB.org :ermm:

Satan
Hmmm.. history? Sorry us new people wheren't around when vb.org was a community. Your one sentence there makes me feel that I do not want a part of this..

[Xenon]

@zsdave: well, i'm sure law is different on each country, but i know for example in germany (where i live) code is copyrighted when you write it. There is no need to register your code somewhere.
Of course if it comes to court, it would be better if you have had it registred somewhere, but that's not needed in the first place. The copyright exist.
And from what i know, the international copyright law is quite the same.
So, vb.org cannot allow everyone to copy other's codes, as that would be an illegal action.

But as Wayne already said, we're currently discussing a way of allowing other hackers more, without getting in touch with illegal activities. Please bear with us :)

@Velocd: a very good idea, and already planned by myself.
With public usergroups this would be easy to achive, so if someone wants to found a "Hacking Team" with it's own subforum, they just have to contact me, and i'll create a usergroup and a subforum for them :)

[Christine]

**Heartily applauds Boofo's comments in this thread**

I appreciate the Admin team looking into this. It is one thing to hold the original idea on something, but if someone wants to create an addon, isn't that what the addons forum is for?

On another note, I too was frustrated that a major hack that I had on vB2 isn't going to be released any time soon for vB3 (the author told me that he won't be upgrading until next year). Yes, I recoded it from scratch as the vB2 code wasn't even close in comparison to what is needed. I brought the queries down from 176 to 45 when I ported it, but I can't release it for others since I didn't write the original. The author has not responded to my PM offering to email him the hack .txt file so that he has a head start for his upgrade, so that is that. *shrugs*

I have what I need to go live this week on Gold (and I could care less about the testosterone influenced competition that permeates here), but there should be a way that folks aren't left in the cold on stuff like this.

Sorry Hellsatan, but it DOES seem like a competition more than a cooperative effort anymore.

I too wish we could get back to the old days of people releasing to contribute to the community and not to make a name for their username.

Microsoft vs Sourceforge, indeed.

</rant>

:)

[Xenon]

Well, if you have recoded it completely, without using the other hack's code, then there would be no problem for you to release it.

As stated: Ideas cannot be copyrighted, just code can.

But as said before, we're currently talking about those issues, and will post what we get, once we finished :)

[Christine]

Don't mind me, Stefan -- I just needed to carp about something (anything) after manually redoing 150 FAQ items from one server to another today.

:eek:

You guys do whatever you think is best for the community.

:)

[TECK]

I think vBulletin.org should email all members who have created a hack for vb2 and inform them that they only have two months to submit a working version of there hack for vb3. Because I feel like we are being cut out of hacks because you have creators who no longer care to work on there hacks. I have even talked to a few creators of hacks for vb2 and they said they have no time to create a working version for vb3, and then I ask them if it would be okay for another member to do it, and they said no.

Now this is really unfair, because they choose not to upgrade there hack, and we are stuck because the creator won?t let other members migrate the hack for vb3. I am wondering what vBulletin.org plans to do about this?
You cannot force someone to release a hack, or port it (by someone else) to a new version without author's explicit consent.
Is a copyright issue.

[Kaelon]

You cannot force someone to release a hack, or port it (by someone else) to a new version without author's explicit consent.
Is a copyright issue.

Actually, while you obviously cannot force someone to release a hack, porting hacks to a new version does not require the original author's consent, considering that the hack itself is considered a derivative work from the original work, which is copyrighted by Jelsoft. So, this notion that you need the permission of the hack author, while noble, nevertheless has no legal standing, since the hack is derivative - that is, based off of the original work, and thus, owned in its entirety by Jelsoft.

Ultimately, the very fact that Jelsoft allows code hackers to make money by offering paid hacks is extremely generous, considering that all code that is derived from vBulletin is ultimately the legal province of Jelsoft.

For more information, you can confer with 17 USC 107 (United States Code), and the Berne Convention, which is the foundation for the International Copyright convention.

[amykhar]

Stepping in here because I absolutely MUST reply to these points:

* hackers are not on a higher level of existence - agree totally. But, they ARE the focus of this site. This is a site for people who modify their vbulletin code. It is not a download site for free goodies. Everybody who posts at this site and everybody who downloads and installs a hack SHOULD be a coder - no matter how low the skill level. Otherwise, this community becomes nothing but a minority of contributing members and a majority of whining leaches and why in hell would the minority want to stick around and deal with whining? If you have absolutely no intention of ever learning how to write a line of PHP code or run a query, why should you expect somebody to take their time and do your work for you for free?. I don't know how to fix my car, and I'm not about to show up at your house and demand that you fix my brakes because you know how. You'd laugh your head off. Furthermore, if you were kind enough to explain to me the general principles behind fixing my brakes and point me towards manuals that would give me detailed instructions and I pitched a hissy fit because you didn't do it for me, you'd tell me to pound sand.

Coding is a skill. It is a skill that takes time and effort to learn. It doesn't make people any more special than somebody who takes the time to learn to sew, cook, repair cars, or paint pictures but it does mean that if you want me to use my skill to help you, you better have some manners.

(Please note I am using the word "you" in a general sense and am not addressing the original poster. I have no idea if he can code or not or if he ever pulls some of the stuff that drives the coders on this site absolutely batty)

[filburt1]

Ultimately, the very fact that Jelsoft allows code hackers to make money by offering paid hacks is extremely generous, considering that all code that is derived from vBulletin is ultimately the legal province of Jelsoft.
Microsoft lets developers make programs for their OS...would that be generous?

Hacks are merely powered by vB when written correctly, and don't contain any vB code. In the case of vB3, even the instructions need not contain a mere snippet of vB code if the hack is authored correctly.

[13th_Disciple]

i think you missed his point, amy.. a lot of the folks here do tend to put themselves above others because of their "1337 coding skilz!!!111@1".. two people in particular that i can think of and they have even posted in this very thread..

i am by no means a php guru, don't profess to be, and not sure if i want to be..

it's the over all attitude that is more than prevelant here.. the new folks see it, and it does nothing to help build any sort of user confidence or foster any type of user/member contributions when you are told not no but hell no every time you turn around..

very few people support new folks.. very few people here encourage new folks.. very few people support what it is they have.. now filburt says it's not his job.. well that may be all fine and dandy if stated, but some people say they will provide support and yet can't respond to their own threads when someone does need help..

tired of rambling.. sleep is a pillow away.. think i will wander in that general direction now.. but i will say, everyday that passes, you see the distance growing between this site and the so-called community it is supposed to support..

[amykhar]

I guess I'm just touchy on this subject right now. Nobody has the right to my brain or the code that I write. Now, there are Vbulletin 2 hacks I have written that I have no intention of supporting any more. I could delete them because I won't support them, but I prefer to leave the work so that other coders can use them as a baseline.

Why don't I support my version 2 hacks? Because I don't have a version 2 board any more, and I don't see it as my duty to keep it installed to answer questions. If I was a company support person, that would be unforgiveable. But I'm not. I'm a hobbyist. And doing something that is no fun is no way to pursue a hobby. ;)

And, I'm not going to update most of my older hacks. Why? Because I no longer need the features those hacks provided. If I don't need the code, why would I take the time to write it, debug it, document it, and support it? I'd do it if a special friend asked me to, but not for any Joe Blow. Too many headaches involved.

If somebody were to say to me that they wanted to update one of my old hacks for VB3, I would say go for it. It's not an ego thing for me.

That said, if somebody were to take my code and re-release it with minor changes without my permission, I would have a fit. Why? Because it is a sign of disrespect. In a community such as this one, there have to be rules of etiquette. The rule about not pilching code is there because some hack authors release code for the joy of the recognition. Without that benefit, they wouldn't release code at all because there would be no fun in it. Allowing others to take code, tweak it a tiny bit, and then slap their name on it would drive the real hack-writers away.

Before you make any demands of hackers, please understand that hacking is our hobby, not our job. Making your site better is your responsibility, not ours. Fixing bugs in our released code is something we should do, but adding extra features, upgrading code to your version of vbulletin, etc. isn't something you should expect of us.

A hack is a gift from a coder to the community. When you receive a gift, you're not supposed to demand more of the giver.

Amy

[Boofo]

It's not just the new people who see this, it's the seasoned hackers that have been here for a while, too. And it isn't just the older board members giving the new people problems, it goes both ways. That's the problem we hope to fix here so we can all get back to what it used to be like around here. It's almost like a home where the kids are born into the family (in this case becoming a member of vb.org in the beginning) and then they start growing up (learning coding and being a part of the community for a while and actually learning and having fun) and then they grow up and want to leave home because they think they can't learn anymore here and the fun is starting to go all out of it. I, for one, have never stopped learning. And I'll be damned if anyone is going to stop me from having fun around here now. ;)

We need to all step back and look at everything and start learning to compromise. The newbies as well as the hackers AND others who have been here a while. It's really very simple to fix if we're all willing to step in and give a hand in all of this. If we want this site to florish, then by God we need to start taking care of it and stopped all the squabbling back and forth about frivilous things that really don't matter in the scheme of things one way of the other. For every hacker that doesn't do his part like supporting his hacks or answering questions that come along, there are 2 that are doing just that trying to help when they can, where they can, and as often as they can. Don't worry about the ones that don't. They'll fade out and wither away. Appreciate the ones that do. And be thankful that we have a place we can come to and learn and have fun and who knows what else. Because I'm telling everyone now, and this is from 50 years of experience, you won't realize what you've lost or walked away from until it's gone and too damned late to do anything about it. And then it'll be, "you know, maybe there was something I could have done to help get vb.org back on the right track". If for no one else, do it for Chen, who worked his tail off (with others too many to mention) to make something of this place. We all worked at building something. Something that I was damned proud and still am to be a part of. Let's not tear it down any more than we already have. It's time for rebuilding, friendships as well as our home here.

Let's make this place better than it is right now and as good as it was, maybe even better. I'm game. Anyone else with me? ;)

If you are with me, I swear, somehow, someway, I will help figure out a way we can all get involved and make this work. With Xenon's and Logician's help and guidance, how can we go wrong? ;)

[Dean C]

Whilst i've sat back and watched this discussion evolve it boils down to the simple points that someone has already mentioned. As stated in our footer all hacks are copyrighted to their authors. If you write the code yourself there's no problem as long as you don't copy bits of the source. If you take someone elses code, change it around a bit and modify the functions that is when you are breaking copyright laws. It's not too hard to understand surely :)

Even still, chances are that if someone is going to port over a hack they know enough PHP to write a version themselves.

[13th_Disciple]

I guess I'm just touchy on this subject right now. Nobody has the right to my brain or the code that I write. Now, there are Vbulletin 2 hacks I have written that I have no intention of supporting any more. I could delete them because I won't support them, but I prefer to leave the work so that other coders can use them as a baseline.

Why don't I support my version 2 hacks? Because I don't have a version 2 board any more, and I don't see it as my duty to keep it installed to answer questions. If I was a company support person, that would be unforgiveable. But I'm not. I'm a hobbyist. And doing something that is no fun is no way to pursue a hobby. ;)

And, I'm not going to update most of my older hacks. Why? Because I no longer need the features those hacks provided. If I don't need the code, why would I take the time to write it, debug it, document it, and support it? I'd do it if a special friend asked me to, but not for any Joe Blow. Too many headaches involved.

If somebody were to say to me that they wanted to update one of my old hacks for VB3, I would say go for it. It's not an ego thing for me.

That said, if somebody were to take my code and re-release it with minor changes without my permission, I would have a fit. Why? Because it is a sign of disrespect. In a community such as this one, there have to be rules of etiquette. The rule about not pilching code is there because some hack authors release code for the joy of the recognition. Without that benefit, they wouldn't release code at all because there would be no fun in it. Allowing others to take code, tweak it a tiny bit, and then slap their name on it would drive the real hack-writers away.

Before you make any demands of hackers, please understand that hacking is our hobby, not our job. Making your site better is your responsibility, not ours. Fixing bugs in our released code is something we should do, but adding extra features, upgrading code to your version of vbulletin, etc. isn't something you should expect of us.

A hack is a gift from a coder to the community. When you receive a gift, you're not supposed to demand more of the giver.

Amy
i don't think it's about name recognition.. i personally could careless who the hell creates a hack or supports it or rewrites it or installs it.. i think those that support their own hacks are admirable for doing so.. those that don't, it's their right.. with old hacks for older versions of vB.. i tthink everyone would agree that support, at some point, is depricated.. it's a given.. happens in every industry..

as far as those expecting support from all hackers, that i know of, i personally have never asked for help one single time on this or any other forum unless i started rehacking someone elses code and that has only been for vBindex from NTLDR and he has offered nothing but solid information and support.. not only that, the ability to do multiple vBindex pages will be in an upcoming version, which is something i was heavily requesting, as well as many others..

i think people often don't realize that there are a hell of a lot more of us out there not asking questions or for support or anything of the kind than there are that actually do.. i make no demands on anyone.. i realize all of this is free.. hell, i run dedicated servers, pay for that out of my pocket every month, pay for all software based costs on the server (only vB for now) and any associated costs to do whatever i want with the machine.. not to mention it occupies every minute of spare time i have.. i am also a single father of a 3 year old daughter.. i have time for nothing.. i do this for fun and the pleasure and all that happy horse ++++ like everyone else..

but i make myself available even for the most menial things that users of my server need.. i do all of that for free as well, free for those guys and gals, that is.. i understand the support deal.. but also understand, there are more of us transparent users that thank the hackers, click install and move along without taking up time..

i just would like to see the site back to as united as it was when i first started coming here long before i ever bought vB and even registered.. this place alone is one of the reasons many of us spent the bread for something we can equally get for free from many places now..

the community was tearing some then, but the page has been ripped from the book now.. also, it would also be nice if there was OPEN AND HONEST discussion allowed.. i personally saw nothing wrong with debating the vbhosting hack and it's issues with the LA.. but that is another story.. just allow for talk.. it hurt no one having that thread..

[Kaelon]

Microsoft lets developers make programs for their OS...would that be generous?

Hacks are merely powered by vB when written correctly, and don't contain any vB code. In the case of vB3, even the instructions need not contain a mere snippet of vB code if the hack is authored correctly.

While perhaps generous was not the correct word, given that Microsoft - like Jelsoft - has a proprietary interest in allowing and encouraging derivative works of their primary products, the legal precedent is quite clear (cf. 17 USC 106(d)), in that any work that is "inspired" by another is considered a derivative, and the intellectual property of the creator and owner of the original work from which it is derived. Only when work that is inspired meets a carefully crafted set of four separate legal criteria (the "fair use" and "ex parte" tests, outlined in 17 USC 107) does it not fall under the legal ownership of the original creator of the work from which it is derived or inspired.

In the case of vBulletin hacks, the code is clearly derived from the vBulletin base code, specifically, in that it creates interoperability with the parent work. The law is very clear in that the intellectual property rights of the code belong to Jelsoft. Because Jelsoft has a prioprietary interest in enabling customers to customize their software - much like Microsoft has a proprietary interest to license and distribute dynamic linked libraries to enable interoperability with component software - it very rightly waives its intellectual property rights in these cases, if not explicitly, then certainly implicitly, which is sufficient to the letter of the law.

Other software companies are far less interested in encouraing innovation like Microsoft and Jelsoft -- such as Apple, which during the first decade of its operation, prohibited any software manufacturers from developing software for its hardware (since it was legally derived from the core product). Apple's product model was based upon the "cartridge" ideology. IBM and its "compatibility", which implicitly waived IBM's proprietary and legal rights to derivative or inspired works, nevertheless proved to be far more markettable, and led to its dominance in the industry.

I'm not saying that Apple or Microsoft were right or wrong in what they have done - but it's obvious that the successful strategy is one of promoting both derivative works, while retaining a considerable amount of control over quality and types of derivative works. Hence, licensing.

[noppid]

Things will be alot better around here if we as hackers here had the attitude of sourceforge than the attitude of microsoft...

That's just not gonna happen. Too much ego involved in most cases.

If I post code, I consider it gone and shared. It would be nice to have a credit in the comments if someone uses it, but who see's them anyway?

As for taking a hack cutting it up and making a new idea for your site. I don't think anyone can catch you. But posting it goes back to ego. You want to brag about your code. If hacking a hack gets what you want, keep it. I find this method of "sharing" pitiful, but as pointed out, they write it they own it.

It's an ego trip IMHO to claim ownership of a couple of lines that someone else could duplicate without ever seeing what someone else did. In the case of vB hacks it happens alot.

That brings us to owning an idea. If two folks have the same idea with different code, each should be able to post. That crap that one line of code was the same and you didn't have permission is BULL. Two people can come up with the same query or if() test and never have met in the vb world.

By the comments made so far by those in charge, this poster don't see change coming.

For instance One signature says don't even bother to ask to port my code. I don't see a way to recreate them without it being said it's a copy even if someone starts from scratch recreating one. The mods have final say and there no outside influence to control ego.

EDIT:
May I remind you all that this site is overseen by the same crowd that admits vB is a copy of an idea and now uses attornies to protect this same idea from others coping it. Go figure!

[noppid]

To back up my accusations...

From http://www.olate.com/articles/15 An interview with Kier Darby of vBulletin

The very earliest (non-public) version of vBulletin was designed to be essentially UBB running with PHP and MySQL rather than Perl and flat-file storage.


Now jelsoft having lawyers look at a company because their BB looks like vB.
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89953&highlight=lawyers

[Wayne Luke]

Now jelsoft having lawyers look at a company because their BB looks like vB.
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89953&highlight=lawyers
Actually, any such look at this will be within the copyrighted code and not based on look and feel. Just because lawyers will be looking into the situation doesn't mean that there is a problem with the other product, just a perceived on at the time of investigation. One would be smart to consult lawyers on any matter that includes interpretation of the law.

However, this is not on topic with this thread and so if you want to add solutions to create a more open hacking environment then please do so. If not, then please make your comments about Jelsoft policies at the Jelsoft site or keep them to yourself.

I, personally, hope to hear ideas on how to make this a more open environment for future addons and modifications.

[Stadler]

Actually, any such look at this will be within the copyrighted code and not based on look and feel. Just because lawyers will be looking into the situation doesn't mean that there is a problem with the other product, just a perceived on at the time of investigation. One would be smart to consult lawyers on any matter that includes interpretation of the law.

However, this is not on topic with this thread and so if you want to add solutions to create a more open hacking environment then please do so. If not, then please make your comments about Jelsoft policies at the Jelsoft site or keep them to yourself.

I, personally, hope to hear ideas on how to make this a more open environment for future addons and modifications.
About my hacks: If someone wants to port one of them, he may just ask me by PM or eMail and since I guess, others think the same, perhaps a list could be created, where all these hackers are listed along with eMail and/or PM-Links.

[13th_Disciple]

create a forum for "open hacks"

in that forum, folks help contribute to each others code.. allow for discussions of the code itself.. allow for free conversation, unless it actually violates a law instead of prohibiting the speech because it "might" violate a law.. not that most of the speech here has been lawfully questionable, bu tat the same time, talking about certain things here makes the proverbial ass of jelsoft pucker tighter than a wh0re in church..

allow for a bit of freedom in those particular forums alone as far as some of the more questionable topics go.. and actually tell people that the roughly questionable conversations should be limited to the open area..

so create a sub cat with a couple of sub forums.. on is a hack forum the other a discussion of hacks/ open content.. it certainly is not a be all end all solution, but a step in the right direction is better than the two steps back approach of late..

edit--
Just to be sure folks know, make sure the info on the forum for hacks explicitly states all hacks posted within are OPEN for any modification as so chosen by any member as they se fit unless otherwise deemed to seriously violate the jelsoft license agreement.. and by seriously, i mean something that completely, without question, everyone can see it, violates the LA..