Regarding the vBHosting Hack [Archive]

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Wayne Luke

03-23-2004, 10:00 PM

This hack has been removed while its legality is investigated. If it is determined to be within the license, it will be returned.

VampireMan

03-23-2004, 10:03 PM

so what happens to us who have allready installed it.
I have just converted all my subforums to use this instead.

mello_mike

03-23-2004, 10:10 PM

*sigh*... this sucks.

I don't see anything wrong with the hack... it's not like the users have the full features of a vB forum... they just could customize the look of their very own part of my forum..

nighteyes

03-23-2004, 10:10 PM

Sad news. :( I guess Jelsoft are worried this excellent hack will eat into license sales.

Link14716

03-23-2004, 10:10 PM

Wayne Luke

03-23-2004, 10:11 PM

so what happens to us who have allready installed it.
I have just converted all my subforums to use this instead.
As long as you don't give sub-forums out to other individuals nothing will happen. Chances are your system is completely incompatible for future vBulletin upgrades, but you knew that going into it right?

FASherman

03-23-2004, 10:12 PM

Maybe we need a VBHacks website not CONTROLLED by Jelsoft?

nighteyes

03-23-2004, 10:12 PM

Maybe we need a VBHacks website not CONTROLLED by Jelsoft?

Looks like it. :rolleyes:

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 10:14 PM

As long as you don't give sub-forums out to other individuals nothing will happen. Chances are your system is completely incompatible for future vBulletin upgrades, but you knew that going into it right?
Upgrading vB will be no problem - almost no parts of the vBulletin are changed, there's just an additional admin interface to control it.

Wayne Luke

03-23-2004, 10:14 PM

OMFG. Did my post say nothing? It lets a user create forums under a subforum and manage it. It is one instance, one installation. It TGOwhatever was legal, which basically let people have free vBs, then that hack is definately legal. *sigh*
Actually TGWhatever is not legal that had already been decided. Each of those "Free" versions of vBulletin are considered to be pirated copies by us. This has become a very big issue lately with several hosts trying this and we have not given permission to anyone.

Your post had your opinion but based on previous staff conversations, the information was incorrect. As I said, after we review this and if it is decided to be okay, then I will restore it.

DrkFusion

03-23-2004, 10:14 PM

ap0c

03-23-2004, 10:15 PM

Looks like it. :rolleyes:
before going over board with negative responses, wait to see what the verdict is

trafix

03-23-2004, 10:15 PM

Maybe we need a VBHacks website not CONTROLLED by Jelsoft?
there is!

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 10:16 PM

Maybe we need a VBHacks website not CONTROLLED by Jelsoft?I'm currently in a mood that makes me agree to you. However we should wait for an offical statement by Jelsoft (I don't think Waynes personal meaning is the official company policy here).

However, if it would be really illegal, I wouldn't release this on any site, controlled by Jelsoft or not... so let's wait what Jelsoft sais...

FASherman

03-23-2004, 10:18 PM

there is!

Please share with the rest of the class. :cool:

nighteyes

03-23-2004, 10:19 PM

before going over board with negative responses, wait to see what the verdict is

Well looks like jelsoft are going overboard with negative responses themselves: Using this hack will make your installation "completely incompatible for future vBulletin upgrades". Based on the original post ref: investigating to be done, how the heck can they quantify such a statement? :)

Link14716

03-23-2004, 10:19 PM

Actually TGWhatever is not legal that had already been decided. Each of those "Free" versions of vBulletin are considered to be pirated copies by us. This has become a very big issue lately with several hosts trying this and we have not given permission to anyone.

Your post had your opinion but based on previous staff conversations, the information was incorrect. As I said, after we review this and if it is decided to be okay, then I will restore it.
Well, among the many past discussions, it had been said that it was legal. Either that or I'm not remembering it correctly.

mello_mike

03-23-2004, 10:20 PM

If anything.. this hack will help Jelsoft.... because members will see how great vB's features are.. and will want to have their own FULL VERSION forum.. and will purchase a license from vB!

So if anything... this hack will expose more people to the vB forum system.... I know Invision board has something like this.. and it encourages people to get their own IPB forum.

Oh well.. Bad enough I have to pay for vB.. then wait 2 years for a new version.. and THEN I can't do want I want with my forum... *sigh*

trafix

03-23-2004, 10:20 PM

Well ... while EvB is not currentluy under jelsoft controll, We take every measure to observe issues such as piricy ect ... all or 90% of hacks posted at EvB require the HTL to install ... the only place that you can get the HTL IS vborg ... the only way for ppl to download the HTL is if they have a valad licence ... thats how we protect jelsoft's intrests.

If we where directed to remove a hack by jelsof or a VB Team member ... it would be done!

Link14716

03-23-2004, 10:21 PM

Please share with the rest of the class. :cool:
He is referring to http://www.everythingvb.com/.

Wayne Luke

03-23-2004, 10:22 PM

I was just wondering. It does use only 1 license? 1 Copy of the files? I have not checked out the hack myself, but I doubt there is any new installations of the whole vBulletin system itself. Can we get a clear statement of why an investigation is needed, and what exactly is being investigated?
An investigation is needed because it assigns the right to use vBulletin to none License holders. This violates the vBulletin license and diminishes Jelsoft's copyright on the product.

Basically it allows you to setup your own EZBoard like system and it has been previously determined that this is against the license and violates our copyright.

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 10:24 PM

Stadler

03-23-2004, 10:25 PM

Basically it allows you to setup your own EZBoard like system and it has been previously determined that this is against the license and violates our copyright.
Which part of the license exactly?

Link14716

03-23-2004, 10:27 PM

This hack is about as illegal as having more than one administrator and about as "incompatible with future upgrades" as my shoutbox hack - although my shoutbox hack would be more "incompatible" as it makes a lot more file edits.

Floris

03-23-2004, 10:27 PM

An investigation is needed because it assigns the right to use vBulletin to none License holders. This violates the vBulletin license and diminishes Jelsoft's copyright on the product.

Basically it allows you to setup your own EZBoard like system and it has been previously determined that this is against the license and violates our copyright.
The Software is licensed only to you. You may not rent, lease, sublicence, sell, assign, pledge, transfer or otherwise dispose of the Software in any form, on a temporary or permanent basis, without the prior written consent of Jelsoft.

I think it is because of this part.

Wayne Luke

03-23-2004, 10:27 PM

I know about 50 websites (most of them are gamesites) that are doing exactly this. And I mean the 50 are those I personally know - of course there are many more. Big sites. Do you say all of them are illegal?
If they are using vBulletin and do not have written permission from Jelsoft Pty. Ltd. (the only holders of the vBulletin copyright, vBulletin-germany.com is just a reseller without authority to change the license agreement) and they are using an automated or semi-automated system to do it, then yes I am.

nighteyes

03-23-2004, 10:33 PM

An investigation is needed because it assigns the right to use vBulletin to none License holders. This violates the vBulletin license and diminishes Jelsoft's copyright on the product.

Basically it allows you to setup your own EZBoard like system and it has been previously determined that this is against the license and violates our copyright.

I'm sorry but this logic could easily be applied to "assigning" administrators to our vBulletin installation or global super moderators to subforums. Aren't these groups being assigned the right to use vBulletin without a license? This hack just restricts what features this new group of administrators have access to.

Floris

03-23-2004, 10:35 PM

Morrus

03-23-2004, 10:35 PM

Which part of the license exactly?
Hmmm.... interesting point. I can see why Jelsoft wouldn't want people to be able to do this (it certainly isn't in their interests), and in their place I would have specifically prohibited it in the license.

However, from my reading of the license I can see nothing prohibiting this. The closest I can see is a reference to distributing or leasing the software (which obviously is not legal), but not to allowing [unlimited] use of a specific licensed installation of vBulletin:

The Software is licensed only to you. You may not rent, lease, sublicence, sell, assign, pledge, transfer or otherwise dispose of the Software in any form, on a temporary or permanent basis, without the prior written consent of Jelsoft.

I'm confident that that language does not prohibit use of the software in this way (or in any way) - it merely prohibits the distribution of it.

[As an aside, as has been pointed out above, Jelsoft's argument here (and I realise that they haven't confirmed their position one way or the other yet) would also prohibit the assignment of co-admins.]

If they are using vBulletin and do not have written permission from Jelsoft Pty. Ltd. (the only holders of the vBulletin copyright, vBulletin-germany.com is just a reseller without authority to change the license agreement) and they are using an automated or semi-automated system to do it, then yes I am.

As the license stands at present, automation doesn't come into it.

VampireMan

03-23-2004, 10:36 PM

/me makes all his users admins

Wayne Luke

03-23-2004, 10:38 PM

I'm sorry but this logic could easily be applied to "assigning" administrators to our vBulletin installation or global super moderators to subforums. Aren't these groups being assigned the right to use vBulletin without a license? This hack just restricts what features this new group of administrators have access to.
Like I said, it will have to be reviewed. There is a chance that it will be determined to be within the license agreement and it will be re-instated. I had asked the creator to remove it voluntarily on a temporary basis while a review was done but he refused to do it stating he didn't have to abide by the Jelsoft License agreement. Maybe it was a language barrier issue that caused him not to do so. Maybe I didn't understand exactly what he meant exactly by not having to abide by the license agreement. Maybe he was given some false information by someone who doesn't have the authority. Right now, we have to review the hack to see what it does, check the code and so forth.

mello_mike

03-23-2004, 10:44 PM

* VampireMan makes all his users admins

LOL!!!

Well I'm sorry to get so heated ... I'm sure vB will see that this hack is within TOS.. and the License Agreement. I have faith in vB.

nighteyes

03-23-2004, 10:46 PM

LOL!!!

Well I'm sorry to get so heated ... I'm sure vB will see that this hack is within TOS.. and the License Agreement. I have faith in vB.

Let's hope you're right. I'm not very confident this will happen based on the strong language Wayne has been using in this thread. ;)

hypedave

03-23-2004, 10:52 PM

I can see how this may be an issue with people that use this hack the wrong way i.e. John Doe sets up a domain called virtualvb.com, installs his vb board then installs this hack and uses the vb subscription feature to charge people to have their own miniature forum within his forum. But what about us members who actually see a good benefit from this within our own community, rather than try to make a profit?

Morrus

03-23-2004, 10:54 PM

Zachery

03-23-2004, 10:54 PM

I reported it a day ago or so, it did not have a stand alone installer, it was forcing you to install a hack to install it self, which gets into the whole HTL debate. Which has been discussed over and over again.

Personally i would have removed it under thoughs grounds and left it be.

However i personally think this does undermind jelsofts license, if you want someone to have a sub forum, theres no problem with setting one up and letting them be a moderator. Ive done it for a few friends who dont have the knowhow or the webspace, but thats its extent. This basicly allows anyone to have their own ezboard setup which would hurt the vB community overall.

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 10:54 PM

Like I said, it will have to be reviewed. There is a chance that it will be determined to be within the license agreement and it will be re-instated. I had asked the creator to remove it voluntarily on a temporary basis while a review was done but he refused to do it stating he didn't have to abide by the Jelsoft License agreement.
As a supporter of a company you should learn there is a difference between "Do you have written permission to do illegal things" and "I'm not sure if your hack is within our license agreement. Would it be possible to remove the download until we have discussed this within our staff?".

You have seen what happens in the first case. I personally believe you had prefered the result of the second one. I'm always trying to work together with others as long as they are friendly. Feel free to ask NTLDR as we had very much PM conversation the last days and I think we have found a good resolution for our problems.

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 10:57 PM

I can see how this may be an issue with people that use this hack the wrong way i.e. John Doe sets up a domain called virtualvb.com, installs his vb board then installs this hack and uses the vb subscription feature to charge people to have their own miniature forum within his forum.
Not sure if you read the license of vBHosting. It's clearly stated there that exactly this is not allowed...

lasto

03-23-2004, 10:59 PM

this hack wont be back - well not in is current form anyway - if jelsoft back down i bet they make it so its a restricted version of what it could of been.

GameCrash congrats m8 on a well thought out hack.I was waiting for it to come out of beta like many others and never thought for a min it would get removed.

Also after reading all the posts - one thing aint certain

How long till the decision is made ?

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 10:59 PM

if you want someone to have a sub forum, theres no problem with setting one up and letting them be a moderator. Ive done it for a few friendsThen I have bad news for you. Following Wayne Luke, this is extremely illegal as this is exactly what my hack does...

Okay, I'll go to bed now. I have to get up in about three hours to go to work. We'll see if I get some sleep... let's hope the (vBulletin)world looks better tomorrow.

Zachery

03-23-2004, 10:59 PM

Not sure if you read the license of vBHosting. It's clearly stated there that exactly this is not allowed...
GameCrash, how many people read a license before they accually use a software / program?

about 5-10% read part of it and less read the whole thing. Just because someone says you cant unless you have the power to enforce it its hard stoping them.

Morrus

03-23-2004, 10:59 PM

Not sure if you read the license of vBHosting. It's clearly stated there that exactly this is not allowed...

I think he's referring to the vBulletin license. Your vBHosting license does, indeed, prohibit this. But it's not really germaine to the discussion.

Zachery

03-23-2004, 11:00 PM

Then I have bad news for you. Following Wayne Luke, this is extremely illegal as this is exactly what my hack does...
No, yours automated the whole process.

Trust me, if they asked me to stop i would :)

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 11:03 PM

No, yours automated the whole process.

Trust me, if they asked me to stop i would :)
I'm sorry I can't find anything about automatisation in the license...?

VampireMan

03-23-2004, 11:03 PM

Personally i think this is a brilliant hack , it's has enabled me to do what i wanted with my forum. Seperate headers/styles per forum. This hack is the closest that comes to it & in fact makes it really easy to do it.

Yes i know you can select a different style per forum , but this way is much easier to manage. If jelsoft does decide this is an "illegal" hack against their liscence system then i will forget about the fact im up for renewal. And stick with what i have.

And as was stated in a previous post by nighteye's , it could be construed that we are allready violating the agreement by having admins who can access the admin menu.
Personally if so i shall get legal advice on this - as Jelsoft would be nullifying their aggreement by giving us the ability to make admins.

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 11:04 PM

GameCrash, how many people read a license before they accually use a software / program?

about 5-10% read part of it and less read the whole thing. Just because someone says you cant unless you have the power to enforce it its hard stoping them.
With what reason do you want to forbid us to do everything a license allows just because it could be others do not read a license? I'm realy not understanding the logic here... :confused:

Zachery

03-23-2004, 11:07 PM

With what reason do you want to forbid us to do everything a license allows just because it could be others do not read a license? I'm realy not understanding the logic here... :confused:
Thats not what i was saying, many people do things that are not correct with a software even if they do read the license, try reading the whole MS EULA when you install WindowsXP next time. :)

My point is someone is probaly going to abuse this, it sort of borders on a lockdown hack in a sense.

But Wayne did say it was going to go under review, not removed totaly, unless ive miss another one of his posts.

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 11:07 PM

If jelsoft does decide this is an "illegal" hack against their liscence system then i will forget about the fact im up for renewal. And stick with what i have.
This is an interesting point as I have got a nice email today (really) that states my license expires in one week...

VampireMan

03-23-2004, 11:08 PM

addon to my post. After reading the liscence again. It could be deemed that we would need written consent to have an admin.! - well it could be interprited that way anyway.

Morrus

03-23-2004, 11:11 PM

addon to my post. After reading the liscence again. It could be deemed that we would need written consent to have an admin.!

No, it couldn't. There's no way the license could be interpreted to mean that. The prohibitions refer specifically to distribution of the software, and do not refer to use of it.

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 11:11 PM

hypedave

03-23-2004, 11:12 PM

I think he's referring to the vBulletin license. Your vBHosting license does, indeed, prohibit this. But it's not really germaine to the discussion.

Yes I was referring to the actual vBulletin license. Okay but here is another question I have.

John Doe has a vbulleting forum, someone approaches him and says "Hey I like your vbulletin forum, can you CO HOST a sub forum on your forum? It pretty much fits your forums and all"

Now if John Doe accepets and decides to create a new forum or sub forum, or any other words Co Host a forum on his site, is that really breaking the vb license? Cause if that is the case, not that im trying to be an a** hole, but I can point several hundred vbulletin ran sites of different genres that are doing that same thing, but with out a hack to automate the full process"

mello_mike

03-23-2004, 11:12 PM

I'm with you Vampire Man... I'll switch to IPB and use their system which is just like vBHosting... that is if vB doesn't approve of this hack.

lasto

03-23-2004, 11:14 PM

Thats not what i was saying, many people do things that are not correct with a software even if they do read the license, try reading the whole MS EULA when you install WindowsXP next time. :)

My point is someone is probaly going to abuse this, it sort of borders on a lockdown hack in a sense.

But Wayne did say it was going to go under review, not removed totaly, unless ive miss another one of his posts.

nope its big brother telling us what we can an cant have.The lockdown hack as previously stated can be used for anything just like the hide hack and does have its uses the same way a spoiler does but jelsoft decided pirated boards used it so they said NO and that was end of matter - no further discussion and i bet this hack falls under the same category.
Jelsoft are actually gonna make this hack SPECIAL just by removing it cause obviously some people would of already downloaded it by now ( i was`nt one cause i was to slow) and whether GameCrash decided to continue work on it or not following the Jelsoft decision i can bet it wont be the end of the hack as someone will just improve on it and make it go underground then jelsoft will have to go after all the legal boards using this hack while in the process of classing them as Pirated boards.

Morrus

03-23-2004, 11:14 PM

Now if John Doe accepets and decides to create a new forum or sub forum, or any other words Co Host a forum on his site, is that really breaking the vb license?

As long as there is only one installation of the software in use, no, he is not violating the license.

hypedave

03-23-2004, 11:17 PM

As long as there is only one installation of the software in use, no, he is not violating the license.

okay back to square one then, he is using only one installation of the software and using this hack, but all of a sudden he is violating the license right? Wich goes back to someone abusing this hack and using it for profits.

nighteyes

03-23-2004, 11:19 PM

Yes I was referring to the actual vBulletin license. Okay but here is another question I have.

John Doe has a vbulleting forum, someone approaches him and says "Hey I like your vbulletin forum, can you CO HOST a sub forum on your forum? It pretty much fits your forums and all"

Now if John Doe accepets and decides to create a new forum or sub forum, or any other words Co Host a forum on his site, is that really breaking the vb license? Cause if that is the case, not that im trying to be an a** hole, but I can point several hundred vbulletin ran sites of different genres that are doing that same thing, but with out a hack to automate the full process"

Yep a huge number of installations do exactly what you describe. This is why Wayne has started using language along the lines of "semi-automated" and "automated" code to achieve subforums as probably being illegal. As far as all of us can tell, these terms are not strictly laid out in our licensing agreement; this language will probably appear in a revised agreement to be forced upon us in future upgrades. :)

Personally I think when a company starts trying to stifle creativty and innovation to boost profit margins its time to move over to another product. We'll have to see what their final determination is first of course........

VampireMan

03-23-2004, 11:19 PM

I would rather stay with vb , lets hope they see the benifit of a superb hack like this.

Morrus

03-23-2004, 11:20 PM

okay back to square one then, he is using only one installation of the software and using this hack, but all of a sudden he is violating the license right? Wich goes back to someone abusing this hack and using it for profits.

No, I do not believe he is violating the license. The license makes no reference to this issue, or to issues of profit (other than selling or leasing the software itself, which nobody is doing here). Neither are prohibited.

GameCrash

03-23-2004, 11:21 PM

Seeing all this from the other side, this thread is perfect pr for my hack ;) I hadn't that many people and that many posts in that time in the hack thread :)

mello_mike

03-23-2004, 11:22 PM

Personally I think when a company starts trying to stifle creativty and innovation to boost profit margins its time to move over to another product.

That basically sums up everything!!!

dniMTheory

03-23-2004, 11:22 PM

I don't think it is as big of a problem as jelsoft is making it. Just add a TOS to the hack that says you can't sell the forums that are created or something like that.

Or maybe it competes with the upcoming "admin demo" thingy thats jelsoft is presenting pretty soon. It is kinda ironic that someone created a "virtual admin demo" before the actual software programmers released their own.

it is one install, one domain, one license,yada, yada,yada...

I'm curious to see how this turns out.

Morrus

03-23-2004, 11:22 PM

As far as all of us can tell, these terms are not strictly laid out in our licensing agreement; this language will probably appear in a revised agreement to be forced upon us in future upgrades.

I imagine that will be the case. Future versions of the license will probably contain such language.

lasto

03-23-2004, 11:23 PM

Seeing all this from the other side, this thread is perfect pr for my hack ;) I hadn't that many people and that many posts in that time in the hack thread :)

were all backing u up m8 cause we hate to see the little guy,get pushed around :)

VampireMan

03-23-2004, 11:24 PM

Seeing all this from the other side, this thread is perfect pr for my hack I hadn't that many people and that many posts in that time in the hack thread

rofl

DuffMan

03-23-2004, 11:30 PM

I don't think it is as big of a problem as jelsoft is making it. Just add a TOS to the hack that says you can't sell the forums that are created or something like that.
Why? Charging users to have subforums is done in many forums without a hack, so I don't think this violates the license agreement at all. It's really a moral issue, and not something mandated in the agreement. I don't think anyone is ever going to consider purchasing or getting a subforum a suitable alternative to buying a real vB.

I'm upset that I never saw this hack before it was removed; I really hope it returns.

hypedave

03-23-2004, 11:37 PM

Yep a huge number of installations do exactly what you describe.

Yeah but I bet Jelsoft never saw it as a threat until a automation utility came out. So where does Jelsoft go from here.

A. Bury the hack, and contact several hunder boards that are currently Co-Hosting small forums?

B. Purchase the hack from the creator and build opon it

Personally I think when a company starts trying to stifle creativty and innovation to boost profit margins its time to move over to another product. We'll have to see what their final determination is first of course........

I have one leased license and 1 owned license awaiting to be renewed and 6 more to purchase, I think i'll wait.

Mike11212

03-23-2004, 11:41 PM

Jelsoft = Microsoft?

VampireMan

03-23-2004, 11:42 PM

they could release is as vbulletin corperate edition.

FleaBag

03-23-2004, 11:44 PM

I'm not trying to be funny here, but Jelsoft have just shot themselves in the foot. Nothing in the license agreement prohibits this hack - the hack itself does nothing illegal.

Companies that prohibit use of something because it is not in their interest do not fair well in the public spotlight. It's like when Microsoft coded a version of Windows that wouldn't allow Netscape to work 'out of the box'.

Claiming this hack is illegal is ridiculous - claiming it is against the license agreement is less so, but still too headstrong. Just because you write a license agreement for the use of your software does not make it the word of law.

It's like a record label suing the maker of a CD writer because it might or could be used to copy CD's they make.

I have over 70 forums that I 'hosted', before I had this hack. All this does is allow the users to do the tasks they would usually have to e-mail me to do. Saving me time. This loses nobody profit - the people I host forums for would never even consider buying vB. I don't see what the problem is here.

My forums are coming up for re-newal also - if this hack is 'outlawed' I might find myself making the switch to a system that doesn't view this situation so aggresively.

hypedave

03-23-2004, 11:45 PM

they could release is as vbulletin corperate edition.

nah I think vBulletin DataCenter or vBulletin Small Business Manager

VampireMan

03-23-2004, 11:45 PM

I just thought , if the hostingcp was recoded with no vb core routines - then this hack could be marketed as an addon to vb with it's own liscence. That would change the situation somewhat.

Morrus

03-23-2004, 11:47 PM

Yeah but I bet Jelsoft never saw it as a threat until a automation utility came out. So where does Jelsoft go from here.

A. Bury the hack, and contact several hunder boards that are currently Co-Hosting small forums?

B. Purchase the hack from the creator and build opon it

I have one leased license and 1 owned license awaiting to be renewed and 6 more to purchase, I think i'll wait.
Folks, I don't think there's much point in discussing the morality of the situation here. It's a simple legal issue based upon the interpretation of a [relatively simple] licensing agreement; that's all this is going to hinge on.

Obviously, this hack isn't in Jelsoft's long-term interests; to allow an EZBoard situation would be damaging to them as a company (more damaging than a few vBulletin.org readers refusing to renew their licenses). However, whether or not it is in their interests, the only thing relevant to this discussion is the terms of the license agreement - either the hack violates the agreement, or it does not.

As I've stated several times, I am fully confident that the hack does not violate the agreement; confident enough that I feel I could easily withstand any legal challenge on the matter, and confident enough that I would use the hack if [the hack author's] own license terms didn't conflict with my desired usage of the hack (but that's another issue).

Morrus

03-23-2004, 11:49 PM

Nothing in the license agreement prohibits this hack - the hack itself does nothing illegal.

Agreed.

Claiming this hack is illegal is ridiculous - claiming it is against the license agreement is less so, but still too headstrong. Just because you write a license agreement for the use of your software does not make it the word of law.

A licensing agreement is a form of contract, and is fully legally binding on both parties until the agreement is disolved (either by breach, mutual consent or expiration).

hypedave

03-23-2004, 11:53 PM

I have over 70 forums that I 'hosted', before I had this hack. All this does is allow the users to do the tasks they would usually have to e-mail me to do. Saving me time. This loses nobody profit - the people I host forums for would never even consider buying vB. I don't see what the problem is here.

In your case no one is loosing profit. But this hack allows one to Host forums or Co-Host a forum on a one vbulletin install license, wich is what you just admitted to right? So take your same situation to a John doe thats charging like $5 per setup for some person that just wants a lil vb forum, and thats where the problem comes.

My forums are coming up for re-newal also - if this hack is 'outlawed' I might find myself making the switch to a system that doesn't view this situation so aggresively.

Hell if this hack is outlawed then co-hosting forums on a one vbulleting install license should be outlawed as well.

Morrus

03-23-2004, 11:57 PM

So take your same situation to a John doe thats charging like $5 per setup for some person that just wants a lil vb forum, and thats where the problem comes.

Not in Jelsoft's interests, certainly, but perfectly legal according to their licensing agreement (however, not so according to the licensing agreement governing the hack itself - but that has nothing to do with Jelsoft, just with the author of the hack).

Stadler

03-23-2004, 11:58 PM

FleaBag

03-24-2004, 12:00 AM

I can understand Jelsoft's point, I just feel this hasn't been handled appropriately.

hypedave

03-24-2004, 12:01 AM

Obviously, this hack isn't in Jelsoft's long-term interests; to allow an EZBoard situation would be damaging to them as a company (more damaging than a few vBulletin.org readers refusing to renew their licenses).

Several hundred sites are already doing this, but now with "automation"

As I've stated several times, I am fully confident that the hack does not violate the agreement; confident enough that I feel I could easily withstand any legal challenge on the matter, and confident enough that I would use the hack if [the hack author's] own license terms didn't conflict with my desired usage of the hack (but that's another issue).

I'm confident as well, but we all know at the end of the day this hack was taken offline because one could actually use it as a EZBoard setup and use the vBulletin 3 subscription feature and charge actually make a profit charging people. I'm sorry im just thinking outside the box.

Link14716

03-24-2004, 12:02 AM

Morrus

03-24-2004, 12:04 AM

btw: Everyone should consider, that this is not a decision of Jelsoft atm, but 'only' the reaction of a handful of mods (nothing personal against any of the mods ... definately not. They're just trying to do their job), because they a in doubt if this is legal and want this to be discussed, rather than watching a 'possible' license infringement to grow more and more.

In other words: Don't blame Jelsoft until a descision has been made.

Also true.

Another issue to consider is that there's a world of difference between claiming this hack illegal and refusing to host it on ones' messageboards. Whether the existence of the hack itself is legal or not, they are certainly within their rights to moderate this board as they see fit, and that includes removal of any content they wish for whatever reason they wish to.

Stadler

03-24-2004, 12:06 AM

I am fully confident that it does not break the license agreement, but Wayne does have a right to have this investigated. If it is not reinstated, however, then we can jump on in an get pissed off about it all. Until then, though, just relax.Fully agreed. Wayne can't and can never be blamed for this IMHO, no matter, what will be decided. He's just doing his job, as I stated above. And right now not even Jelsoft could be blamed as a company.

I guess, we all should sit and wait, what will be decided.

Boofo

03-24-2004, 12:10 AM

This is one of the main reasons that this site has gotten to be how it is now, with all of the turmoil going on. Everyone seems to want to go against the grain these days instead of accepting policy as was done in the past. As long as things like this continue, those of us who have taken our hacks elswhere, will stay where we are at and leave this site to the ones who seem to no longer care how it is handled. It's sad to lose something that at one time was the place to be. ;)

Morrus

03-24-2004, 12:11 AM

but we all know at the end of the day this hack was taken offline because one could actually use it as a EZBoard setup and use the vBulletin 3 subscription feature and charge actually make a profit charging people. I'm sorry im just thinking outside the box.

Sure, that's self-evident. I don't blame them one bit for worrying about it; unfortunately, they didn't consider this possibility when drafting their licensing agreement.

It's not that they don't want people to make a profit - I doubt they care how rich you or I are - what they need to avoid is a situation where people don't buy their software any more because it is easier/more convenient/cheaper to use "vB EZBoard". EZBoard itself is immensely popular, and such a situation could potentially put Jelsoft in a very awkward situation. Imagine: the convenience of EZBoard combined with the coolness of the vB software. In their place, I'd have changed the license already.

An unfortunate oversight on their part. I'll bet they're cursing; I also bet the license gets changed very rapidly.

Dark Shogun

03-24-2004, 12:30 AM

It's not like someone would be running a business off of this hack because it is stated in the copyright for the hack that it isn't allowed. Now since that is the case I see nothing wrong. It is like setting up a forum for someone and giving them Mod powers. The head admin's will still own/run the board in general but that mod will run their forum and subforums. There is NO difference. 1 license, 1 copy of vbulletin, and 1 database.

Dark Shogun

Boofo

03-24-2004, 12:34 AM

LOL I guess that's one way to handle it. ;)

Where did your post go Vampireman?

Drk, I understand what you are saying but it is the one or two bad apples that would use something like this for illegal purposes that they are concerned with. ;)

ap0c

03-24-2004, 12:41 AM

Dark Shogun

03-24-2004, 12:42 AM

Yeah but if they are using it for illegal purposes get them not everyone. Thats just like if someone is using vbulletin illegally. :)

Dark Shogun

trafix

03-24-2004, 12:45 AM

Can I suggest that this thread be moved to the discussion forum??????

VampireMan

03-24-2004, 12:50 AM

13th_Disciple

03-24-2004, 01:50 AM

In your case no one is loosing profit. But this hack allows one to Host forums or Co-Host a forum on a one vbulletin install license, wich is what you just admitted to right? So take your same situation to a John doe thats charging like $5 per setup for some person that just wants a lil vb forum, and thats where the problem comes.

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for a setup fee.. hell, even a recurring fee.. it takes up space, it takes up bandwidth.. and it is also using more server resources.. the way i see it, even if you charge for hosting a sub-forum, it is not like it will be enough from one particular person to afford a vBulletin license..

of course, as a collective whole, the forum hoster may make enough, but people tend to forget, the vast majority can't afford a single license.. so if they only have to pay 5 dollars a month for someone else to bare the burden of server resources, bandwidth and the like, i see no way in hell it would effect anyone including jelsoft since the person could NOT afford a vB license otherwise.. but that is my simple logic from knowing most people can't afford hosting, support and license fees involved in maintaining a vB license themselves..

Dark Shogun

03-24-2004, 02:09 AM

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for a setup fee.. hell, even a recurring fee.. it takes up space, it takes up bandwidth.. and it is also using more server resources.. the way i see it, even if you charge for hosting a sub-forum, it is not like it will be enough from one particular person to afford a vBulletin license..

of course, as a collective whole, the forum hoster may make enough, but people tend to forget, the vast majority can't afford a single license.. so if they only have to pay 5 dollars a month for someone else to bare the burden of server resources, bandwidth and the like, i see no way in hell it would effect anyone including jelsoft since the person could NOT afford a vB license otherwise.. but that is my simple logic from knowing most people can't afford hosting, support and license fees involved in maintaining a vB license themselves..
Thing about that is it is Jelsoft's and a lot of other peoples policy that if you can't afford the software you don't use the software. THAT's why this hack is being considered because people would get to use the swank features of vbulletin but they aren't paying jelsoft for it but the problem with that logic is, you can do everything that hack does without the hack it just makes it easier with the hack.

Dark Shogun

Reeve of shinra

03-24-2004, 02:10 AM

First off, I think some people are giving Wayne a very hard time. Alot of people expressed thier disatisfaction with how things were being handled at vb.org and Wayne took time out to listen to everyones feedback and is in the process of implementing a plan to make things better. This may be jelsofts repsonsibility but he as an individual is still trying to help everyone out. For that alone, he should be given at least common courtesy to do as he said, check the hack to ensure it's not breaking any liscencing agreements.

That said, ... from the moment I first saw the hack, I personally thought it was going against some of the liscencing agreements.

Is it necessarilly a bad thing? No, I dont think so. I've enteretained the idea of starting up a sister forum (which I would buy a liscence for) and I could see alot of benifit to me as an admin if I only had one set of php files to hack and an intergrated user base.

On the other hand, I can see the potential for certain abuses that would go above those of 'personal use'.

As Wayne said earlier, they are looking into the hack so let them do so. If you have a concern, share it, but please quit the whinning. It makes you all sound extremely immature and hurts the arguements your putting forth.

FASherman

03-24-2004, 02:31 AM

I'd prefer that to sounding like a butt kissing sycophant. :devious:

twoseven

03-24-2004, 02:42 AM

welp i thought about adding this to my forum and making it more limited only a few specific users could gain access just because there are items that a few on my forum need to know and not everyone and its easier to do that than make a forum make a custom group add the few people to that group... it just makes it cleaner imo.
i see both sides of the arguement... lets just hope they dont try to limit the power of our forums due to this... it is a fine line that needs to be followed on this

forum4games

03-24-2004, 02:43 AM

Oh well.. Bad enough I have to pay for vB.. then wait 2 years for a new version.. and THEN I can't do want I want with my forum... *sigh*

no doubt! I think I'll switch to the new invision when it comes out!

forum4games

03-24-2004, 02:45 AM

An investigation is needed because it assigns the right to use vBulletin to none License holders. This violates the vBulletin license and diminishes Jelsoft's copyright on the product.

So going by that, would I not be violating your license to have other admins and mods on my forum?! They can access my forum and are non license holders!

twoseven

03-24-2004, 02:47 AM

no doubt! I think I'll switch to the new invision when it comes out!

i've seen some invision boards crumble under intense usage dont know if this has changed or not just something to think about.

nighteyes

03-24-2004, 02:53 AM

So going by that, would I not be violating your license to have other admins and mods on my forum?! They can access my forum and are non license holders!

Yep that's basically what he is saying. Should we remove all administrators from our vBulletin installations while this investigation is going on?

forum4games

03-24-2004, 03:06 AM

i've seen some invision boards crumble under intense usage dont know if this has changed or not just something to think about.

Well as Invision 2 is not out yet it is hard for me to test it and see if that is still the case. But I will be (as I like the option of not being forced to buy it, tons of free skins and Invision doesn't dictate what hacks I can use!)

Dark Shogun

03-24-2004, 03:13 AM

Well as Invision 2 is not out yet it is hard for me to test it and see if that is still the case. But I will be (as I like the option of not being forced to buy it, tons of free skins and Invision doesn't dictate what hacks I can use!)
Yeah but you have to be licensed to get staff support.

Dark Shogun

PlenoJure

03-24-2004, 03:15 AM

So going by that, would I not be violating your license to have other admins and mods on my forum?! They can access my forum and are non license holders!
I'm wondering this myself, while this seems to be a ridiculous statement, it seems thats where it's going. I would like to see an official comment making it clear as to just how that part of the license should be read. Based on this I'm almost tempted to remove the admins from my board until this is settled.

Reeve of shinra

03-24-2004, 03:15 AM

There's some ambiguity here, but I believe as liscence holder in this context means the site of your forum.

Under the law (at least here in the US), corporations are considered entities with certain rights associated with people and as such entities are sometimes refered to in that sence. I believe in this case, using the same logic, a website would be considered an entity.

In contracts that I have seen with similiar language, there is usually a clause that states the 'services' being provided cannot be resold or provided to persons not with the customer organazition... yadda yadda yadda.

Of course, I may be wrong, only jelsoft can say for sure...

forum4games

03-24-2004, 03:24 AM

Yeah but you have to be licensed to get staff support.

Dark Shogun

well then it is a good thing I've never had a need for their support :)

Dark Shogun

03-24-2004, 03:32 AM

Then that brings up the question of what if I have a network of sites and have the same board for all of those sites and have different mods, supermods, and admins for each said site.

Dark Shogun

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 04:28 AM

Wow...this is about the quickest I have seen a thread propogate!

Wayne, I handle copyright law all the time. There are some gray areas that may have to be dealt with (specifically the automation), but the user database, post database and everything else function off of one license. vBHosting does not grant each user their own vBulletin license, nor access to all of the features of an Admin. Simply put, it just gives our Moderators a bit more control than vBulletin saw fit to do.

I hope that instead of issuing a declaration from on high, vBulletin will look at this hack and work with the developer to ensure a great hack that adds even more functionality to an already stellar product. I for one see a great chance to allow my moderators the ability to design their own subforums, and to have access to ban people (using access masks) from their part of the site.

Please....don't jump the gun on this one.

colicab-d

03-24-2004, 05:22 AM

Funny i saw this coming............ ho hum

Silverdawn222

03-24-2004, 06:08 AM

nighteyes

03-24-2004, 06:38 AM

Best post I've read in this entire thread. It truly is a great hack, and as you can see Mr. Luke's strong language has worked counterproductively. Support the creativity, it's what Vbulletin as a community has thrived upon as well. I'm completely going with SpeedStreet on this one.

Agree with both of you entirely.

jluerken

03-24-2004, 06:42 AM

If they are using vBulletin and do not have written permission from Jelsoft Pty. Ltd. (the only holders of the vBulletin copyright, vBulletin-germany.com is just a reseller without authority to change the license agreement) and they are using an automated or semi-automated system to do it, then yes I am.

LoL.
This script did already exist in a version for vb2 and many many big sites used it in the past. They made their own additions or changes to it and I am sure they will also use it in vb3.

If this is illegal then maybe we should start a list here which pages are using such a system and then see how Jelsoft acts on this.

Btw. as the author said this script is a major addition to vb3 and gives more power to it, nothing else.
Take a look on scripts like Photopost or Hivemail which are also own scripts and can be connected to vb3.
Looks like this is ok and needs no investigation cause hey, who wonders, all the guys know each other :D

Be consequent for those scripts then also or let the authors do their work.
At the moment they like vb3 and work on it but they can also switch to other software if this is not longer wanted.
Infopop did the same and take a look where they're now. From the BB Market leader to the last on the market in two years.

So please Wayne be fair end let the author show how powerful vb3 is and what for things can be done with it. This hack is a good advertisement for Jelsoft cause it brings more people to vb3.

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 06:42 AM

For those sending me (and others) tons of emails and pms:

No, I will not give out the vBHosting zip file anywhere else than at vB.org and vB-Germany.com to prevent it to be used by pireated boards. This has always been a policy of my hack and will not be changed, at least not until this current problematic has been clarified.

For those running Beta 1 of the hack I will attach the security bugfix that has been part of Beta 2. Just upload it to your includes/ folder and overwrite the existing file.

AlexanderT

03-24-2004, 07:15 AM

LeeCHeSSS

03-24-2004, 07:57 AM

Question: If I had downloaded the vBH hack before it was deleted some time later by vB team members, installed it, and since then never came back to vB.org - how would I know that I was using an "illegal" hack? How could I be reliable for something that I downloaded from a vB-supported forum?
Sadly you have just negated that possibility :)

Anyway, according to current vB.org rules, the hack was to be removed regardless of this whole issue (as trafix already pointed out).

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 08:20 AM

Anyway, according to current vB.org rules, the hack was to be removed regardless of this whole issue (as trafix already pointed out).
I couldn't find where trafix posted something about this issue, however, if you mean what Zachery posted about the installer was, simply, no more true as beginning with Beta 2 the installer was part of the vBHosting zip file (which has been discussed with the vB.org staff and they stated this whould be enough to make the hack compatible to the rules).

LeeCHeSSS

03-24-2004, 08:30 AM

I couldn't find where trafix posted something about this issue, however, if you mean what Zachery posted about the installer was, simply, no more true as beginning with Beta 2 the installer was part of the vBHosting zip file (which has been discussed with the vB.org staff and they stated this whould be enough to make the hack compatible to the rules).
This just proves that the current vb.org staff lacks any ability to enforce their own rules consistently.

Anyway, I think your hack is a nice piece of work. It isn't breaking the *current* vBulletin license agreement - I expect Jelsoft will be releasing future releases of vB with a new agreement that will limit this kind of hacks though...

In your original thread you said that the HTL had missing features. Might I suggest that you contact Kura to work with him to create a combination of both installers, creating an even better end-result? I know Kura is willing, and he asked me to direct you to this link: http://everythingvb.com/showthread.php?t=39

With regards...,

Morrus

03-24-2004, 08:31 AM

Drk, I understand what you are saying but it is the one or two bad apples that would use something like this for illegal purposes that they are concerned with. ;)

Look, guys, people aren't helping by spreading this "making a profit is illegal" nonsense. If you want to make money off your vBulletin board, it is perfectly legal to do so - and so it should be.

The vBHosting license itself does require that anyone using the hack does not make a profit from it but that has nothing at all to do with Jelsoft, and nothing at all to do with this discussion. This discussion is purely about the legality of the hack according to Jelsoft's published licensing agreement - which is a factual, legal thing, and not something which Jelsoft get to "decide".

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 08:50 AM

This just proves that the current vb.org staff lacks any ability to enforce their own rules consistently.
I don't think so. The rule (as they told me) exists to make sure nobody has to download one hack just to install another one. Combining vBHosting and vBHMS to one hack simply lets you download one hack which contains an installer, not more and not less...

Anyway, I think your hack is a nice piece of work. It isn't breaking the *current* vBulletin license agreement - I expect Jelsoft will be releasing future releases of vB with a new agreement that will limit this kind of hacks though...
Yes, you may be right. However that rules are not here now and so there was no reason to delete the hack thread. It's that simple for me.

In your original thread you said that the HTL had missing features. Might I suggest that you contact Kura to work with him to create a combination of both installers, creating an even better end-result? I know Kura is willing, and he asked me to direct you to this link: http://everythingvb.com/showthread.php?t=39

With regards...,
Kura already contacted me. We'll see what happens to vBHosting and then we'll see if I have time for HTL ;)

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 09:01 AM

I think the point that needs to be clarified here is what this hack does versus what people think the possibilities of a violation are.

vbHosting simply adds additional subroutines to your forum. Without the automated part of the hack, this gives me, the Administrator, the ability to create a new subforum whilst automatically creating a new style for that subforum. Now, I can appoint an "admin" to the forum that can modify ONLY buttons and styles.

How is this hack not incredible?

Ok, now let's dive into the license agreement in question, thereby resolving this beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt:

By installing and using vBulletin on your server, you agree to the following terms and conditions. Such agreement is either on your own behalf or on behalf of any corporate entity which employs you or which you represent ('Corporate Licensee'). In this Agreement, 'you' includes both the reader and any Corporate Licensee and 'Jelsoft' means Jelsoft Enterprises Limited:

vBulletin licence grants you the right to run one instance (a single installation) of the Software on one web server and one web site for each licence purchased. Each licence may power one instance of the Software on one domain. For each installed instance of the Software, a separate licence is required.

In no manner of speaking does vBhosting recreate an additional software instance. The hack itself should be more aptly named "SuperSubForums"

The Software is licensed only to you. You may not rent, lease, sublicence, sell, assign, pledge, transfer or otherwise dispose of the Software in any form, on a temporary or permanent basis, without the prior written consent of Jelsoft.

As "The Software" has been determined to still be in the sole possesion of the Administrator of the existing site, and new "admins" do not have access to the source code (without additional renumerations from the aforementioned Administrator), this bullet point is also not subject to the issue at hand

If you have a valid licence, you may set up an additional test forum in order to test code, template and database modifications. To make this clear to us and our licence verification procedures, place it in a directory called 'testvb' and be sure to password protect it. It must not be accessible by the general public.
The licence is effective until terminated (Owner Licence)/The licence is effective for one year from the date you install the Software (Leased Licence). You may terminate it at any time by uninstalling the Software and destroying any copies in any form.
You undertake to;
:- ensure that, prior to use of the Software by your employees or agents, all such parties are notified of the terms of this Agreement; and
:- hold all data (including object and source codes), software listings and all other information relating to the Software confidential and not at any time, during the period of the licence or after its expiry, disclose the same whether directly or indirectly to any third party without Jelsoft's consent.
After the expiry of a licence, the Software must either be removed from the server, or another licence purchased.
All customers must submit the URL where they are using (or plan to use) each licence. The URL can be submitted via the vBulletin members area.
The Software source code may be altered (at your risk)
All vBulletin copyright notices within design templates must remain unchanged (and visible).
The Software may not be used for anything that would represent or is associated with an Intellectual Property violation, including, but not limited to, engaging in any activity that infringes or misappropriates the intellectual property rights of others, including copyrights, trademarks, service marks, trade secrets, software piracy, and patents held by individuals, corporations, or other entities.
If any of the terms of this Agreement are violated, Jelsoft reserves the right to revoke the licence at any time.
Refunds will be given at the discretion of Jelsoft.

There isn't anything within the terms of this agreement that would hold a product such as vBhosting in violation.

For posterity purposes, I will post the rest of the agreement:

The software and the accompanying files are sold "As Is" and without warranties as to performance of merchantability or any other warrantied whether expressed or implied.

Jelsoft is not liable for the content of any message posted on a forum powered by the Software.

Jelsoft cannot be held responsible and accepts no liability for any failure in transmission by you and where for whatever reason your transmission is corrupted fails to arrive or arrives after an undue delay or is received in an unintelligible form.

You must assume the entire risk of using the program. ANY LIABILITY OF JELSOFT WILL BE LIMITED EXCLUSIVELY TO PRODUCT REPLACEMENT OR REFUND OF PURCHASE PRICE.

Except in respect of personal injury or death caused directly by the negligence of Jelsoft, in no event will Jelsoft be liable to you for any damages, including any lost profits, lost savings, loss of data or any indirect, special, incidental or consequential damages arising out of the use of or inability to use such Software, even if Jelsoft has been advised of the possibility of such damages. Nothing in this Agreement limits liability for fraudulent misrepresentation.

Terms in this Agreement excluding or limiting liability in relation to breach of the terms implied by the "Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1973 or the Sale of Goods Act 1979 do not apply when this Agreement is made with a consumer.

This licence gives you specific legal rights and the you may have other rights that vary from country to country. Some jurisdictions do not allow the exclusion of implied warranties, or certain kinds of limitations or exclusions of liability, so the above limitations and exclusions may not apply to you. Other jurisdictions allow limitations and exclusions subject to certain conditions. In such a case the above limitations and exclusions shall apply to the fullest extent permitted by the laws of such applicable jurisdictions. If any part of the above limitations or exclusions is held to be void of unenforceable, such part shall be deemed to be deleted from this agreement and the remainder of the limitation or exclusion shall continue in full force and effect. Any rights that you may have as a consumer (i.e. a purchaser for private as opposed to business, academic or government use) are not affected.

From time to time, Jelsoft may inspect your registration integrity. This will be done without collecting any information whatsoever about your server or your users. The only information verified will be your licence number and the domain on which the software is run. Should Jelsoft discover discrepancies in the software usage, be aware that you may lose your licence and may face legal actions for Software Piracy. Your information will not be shared with 3rd parties. Occasionally, it is necessary to record your IP address for security and performance monitoring.

Please be aware that we subcontract our anti-piracy measures to Legal Research Associates. They may contact you to clarify your license legality, and will use an email address @vbulletin.com , @lra.com or @nukepirates.com .

This Agreement constitutes the complete statement of the agreement between you and Jelsoft, and supercedes all representations, understandings or prior agreements between you and Jelsoft.

Jelsoft reserves the right to modify these terms at any time.

This Agreement is governed by the laws of England and Wales.

Now, believe it or not, the second to last line, "Jelsoft reserves the right to modify these terms at any time." will not hold up in most United States Courts when it comes to contractual agreements. The only time an agreement can be altered in an instance when goods or services are bartered or purchased is when said agreement comes to the table again. In this instance, the license agreement can ONLY be altered if you have to make a payment on a lease or if you are purchasing an additional unit, and then only that unit is subject to the new agreement. This flaw (or feature) is known throughout the world as a "Grandfather clause" and is the source of many a copyrighter's nightmare.

I would continue my diatribe of contractual law and corporate ethics 101, but it is 5 am here and I have gotten very little done on my own board this evening. I hope this post has been somewhat enlightening.

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 09:02 AM

I don't think so. The rule (as they told me) exists to make sure nobody has to download one hack just to install another one. Combining vBHosting and vBHMS to one hack simply lets you download one hack which contains an installer, not more and not less...

I think that's actually a good rule...How long will it take you to whip up a text installer?

LeeCHeSSS

03-24-2004, 09:04 AM

I don't think so. The rule (as they told me) exists to make sure nobody has to download one hack just to install another one. Combining vBHosting and vBHMS to one hack simply lets you download one hack which contains an installer, not more and not less...Excuse me for going offtopic in this thread again, but I just have to point out that this merely shows how the average vb.org user (mayhaps even staffmember???) does NOT understand the current rules - note that I could be the one confused; I'm as much an average user as you :).

Anyway, what you say implies that hackers are now allowed to release HTL releases PROVIDED they include the HTL in their zip - which is ofcourse far from desireable; dozens of different HTL versions floating around everywhere. That is, where it not for the fact that each release should include a textfile with instructions - as the ever evasive rules dictate.

Let me stress that it is not my desire to point you wrong, but to show how horribly confusing and erratic the current vb.org staff governs this site.

Again with regards...,

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 09:19 AM

ok forget all this cos this whole thread stinks of animosity and gets back to the whole who cares, it got 3 installs and most of you wouldn't install it anyway, i'd prefer to have jelsoft buy out HTL and have HTL only installations allowed rather than get into this whole debacle.

the hack will be reviewed, unless you're gonna make a well structured argument then leave the thread, their seems to be alot of useless ranting going on in here.

anyway the reason i posted;

i'm planning on making a groups hack, much the same as msn groups/yahoo groups etc, allowing users to make groups (pretty much a thread outside of the forum directory, with a small gallery and some other stuff) i'm wondering would using this be a violation of the license agreement (it would make almost no changes to the database or files). and would releasing it on here be a problem?

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 09:30 AM

ok forget all this cos this whole thread stinks of animosity and gets back to the whole who cares, it got 3 installs and most of you wouldn't install it anyway, i'd prefer to have jelsoft buy out HTL and have HTL only installations allowed rather than get into this whole debacle.
The hack was in a different thread and had about 15 installs (which isn't bad if you see that it has been there for one day only). Not sure who clicked install in this thread ;)

i'm planning on making a groups hack, much the same as msn groups/yahoo groups etc, allowing users to make groups (pretty much a thread outside of the forum directory, with a small gallery and some other stuff) i'm wondering would using this be a violation of the license agreement (it would make almost no changes to the database or files). and would releasing it on here be a problem?
Only Jelsoft can tell you that. Ask them (via the support sytem) and make sure you print out what they say (I have asked them ago if this hack would be legal and they said "yes, sure" - The only problem is I didn't print the result out and now you can see the result...)

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 09:35 AM

if i'm honest i think the hack is blatantly a violation of the JLA and should've been removed, i'm not an elitest, i don't tend to mind when i find out a board was illegitimate, but that's a non-legit board out right, this hack tried to create a loop hole and that's just wrong, people should just go out and buy a license and hosting if they wanna be legit.

although i think the noble thing on the side of Jelsoft would be to buy the code outright and then it's upto them if they wanna release a "vBulletin vBhosting version".

/me thinks this thread is just getting in the way of more pressing issues raised over at vb.com regarding vb.org

Morrus

03-24-2004, 09:41 AM

if i'm honest i think the hack is blatantly a violation of the JLA and should've been removed

Huh? Please explain. Have you seen some clause in the license which we have all missed?

Please understand that we are discussing a very specific licensing agreement with very specific terms in it. I've scoured the agreement and can see no violation. Would you be so kind as to share with us which term, specifically, has been violated, and your reasoning as to how that term applies to this hack?

Thanks! :)

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 09:47 AM

Huh? Please explain. Have you seen some clause in the license which we have all missed?

Please understand that we are discussing a very specific licensing agreement with very specific terms in it. I've scoured the agreement and can see no violation. Would you be so kind as to share with us which term, specifically, has been violated, and your reasoning as to how that term applies to this hack?

Thanks! :)
ok so maybe it stands on the JLA but it is wrong none the less

forgetting SQL space, server load etc.

it calls into question the fact that you wanna get off on running a site rather than a community and that is what vBulletin is, it's a forums package.

Morrus

03-24-2004, 09:53 AM

it calls into question the fact that you wanna get off on running a site rather than a community and that is what vBulletin is, it's a forums package.

vBulletin is a product. Nothing more, nothing less. Jelsoft sell that product (well, they license it); they create license agreements and charge a price for that license. There's no "moral" element here at all.

There's also nothing wrong with generating revenue from a website. In fact, large websites cannot be maintained without generating revenue (I pay hundreds of dollars per month for my hosting; without generating some revenue, my family goes hungry).

Even so, revenue isn't the issue here. I don't know why people keep focusing on it.

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 09:59 AM

it calls into question the fact that you wanna get off on running a site rather than a community and that is what vBulletin is, it's a forums package.
vBulletin is a software package. It contains a forum, it contains a Calendar. Jelsoft nowhere states we may not use vBulletin for something else than running a community. And, by the way, the forum hosting is perfectly integrated in the community I'm running.

lasto

03-24-2004, 10:00 AM

when is the decision gonna be made ?

surely they aint waiting for a date in court as well :)

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 10:08 AM

nah their are official jelsoft meetings all this week, expect an answer by saturday, monday the latest :)

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 10:10 AM

vBulletin is a product. Nothing more, nothing less. Jelsoft sell that product (well, they license it); they create license agreements and charge a price for that license. There's no "moral" element here at all.

There's also nothing wrong with generating revenue from a website. In fact, large websites cannot be maintained without generating revenue (I pay hundreds of dollars per month for my hosting; without generating some revenue, my family goes hungry).

Even so, revenue isn't the issue here. I don't know why people keep focusing on it.
alas i'm the wrong person to get involved in this debate, my compassion concerning this subject isn't what the rest of yours is.

from an admin PoV making revenue, i say buy an add-on license, solves all problems and you continue making money.

from jelsoft, it's a snuff in terms of revenue but alas with an add-on license it's all good.

as i said, the best option would be for jelsoft to buy out the code and release it ASAP.

Morrus

03-24-2004, 10:12 AM

when is the decision gonna be made ?

surely they aint waiting for a date in court as well :)

See, that's the thing. There's no "decision" to be made (Jelsoft doesn't get to "decide" what its licensing agreement says - it is already bound by it). It is legal to use the hack - that's not really in question.

However, vbulletin.org are within their rights not to host the hack, and I have a feeling that that may be what happens. In that case, the hack author would be forced to go elsewhere to distribute it (if he chose to, that it), which would be a shame because then he wouldn't be able to use vbulletin.org's license verification system - and it is certainly in Jelsoft's interests to have him use that.

We'll just have to wait and see. :)

lasto

03-24-2004, 10:14 AM

u gotta be winding me up - surely they can make a decision quicker than that.

/me votes for GameCrash HOTM

serious though i dont reckon we see this hack back.

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 10:18 AM

u gotta be winding me up - surely they can make a decision quicker than that.

* lasto votes for GameCrash HOTM

serious though i dont reckon we see this hack back.
hm, now you mention it, nah. theirs greater issues on the jelsoft agenda, new products and then vb.org and other sister sites which will then segway into this issue. theirs some good stuff to come from that meeting :)

* sabret00the sposts link online, goes back to stalking the shoutbox hack thread for support.

Dark Shogun

03-24-2004, 10:21 AM

I have talked this over with people and even they said that it doesn't go against the license that Jelsoft has on it's site. But since the issue is just weather it is allowed he the license DOESN'T matter whatsoever and they can decised not to have the hack no matter what. Just like the lockdown hack isn't allow they can ban this and any other hack without a reason.

Dark Shogun

Link14716

03-24-2004, 10:31 AM

I think that's actually a good rule...How long will it take you to whip up a text installer?
I'm betting it'd take several days, if not longer.

Morrus

03-24-2004, 10:37 AM

Just like the lockdown hack isn't allow they can ban this and any other hack without a reason.

They can prevent it from being distributed here, sure. They can't prevent people from using it, though.

Dark Shogun

03-24-2004, 10:43 AM

They can prevent it from being distributed here, sure. They can't prevent people from using it, though.
Thats true. A lot of people including myself have already downloaded this and the author may choose to release it somewhere else if they don't allow it here or at vbulletin-germany.com. It just seems a shame that the legality of this is even an issue.

Dark Shogun

trafix

03-24-2004, 10:58 AM

I actually have a copy of the hack :) ... and was going to install it untill it was moved, I have decided to wait for the outcome before i use it.

Reeve of shinra

03-24-2004, 11:25 AM

trafix

03-24-2004, 11:35 AM

I think it could take a few days. I think it would be prudent on Jelsofts part not only to review the code but to run it past thier lawyers... If Jelsoft gives the okay about this hack, then it may potentially impact their claims when they pursue real pirates. So this is gonna be a catch 22.
i agree with you, There are a lot more things here that has to be taken into consideration here. I wouldnt want my license voided if the investigation is negative and i am using the hack :(

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 11:39 AM

you need my groups hack instead of this one :p

alas i'm the wrong person to get involved in this debate, my compassion concerning this subject isn't what the rest of yours is.

from an admin PoV making revenue, i say buy an add-on license, solves all problems and you continue making money.

from jelsoft, it's a snuff in terms of revenue but alas with an add-on license it's all good.

as i said, the best option would be for jelsoft to buy out the code and release it ASAP.
to that effect, you would (or should) buy a new license every time you create a subforum and put a moderator in charge of it!

Morrus

03-24-2004, 12:40 PM

i agree with you, There are a lot more things here that has to be taken into consideration here. I wouldnt want my license voided if the investigation is negative and i am using the hack :(

The license doesn't automatically get voided just because one party decides so; it gets voided in instances of breach. That's why we have licenses - if it were just a case of "do whatever Jelsoft says" then why have a license at all? Why bother writing one and getting people to agree to it? That's the whole point of licenses: so that both parties are clear as to their obligations.

I'm not using the hack, so it's almost immaterial to me other than an intellectual excercise. However, if I were using it, and Jelsoft were to to tell me that doing so was a "breach" of the license, I would challenge that - because it's not. I certainly wouldn't stop using it.

Jelsoft would then need to test their license in court - and I'm positive that they would not succeed in such a test.

That all said, I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation as it doesn't affect me. I'm really just sticking my nose into other peoples' business. :)

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 12:47 PM

to that effect, you would (or should) buy a new license every time you create a subforum and put a moderator in charge of it!
ok hopefully the last post on the subject.

how many of the subforum sites members will actually contribute to your community, will you run a community or just let your subforums make use of your license, how active a roll will you play in the subforums, how much input will you have into the subforums, what about moderation, will that be based on global rules? what if one of the sub-forums is something that you didn't envisage, how much of the content are you going to check to make sure it doesn't void your license? what will the subforums communitys be called? and will the members of said subforums even know you exist?

13th_Disciple

03-24-2004, 12:47 PM

to that effect, you would (or should) buy a new license every time you create a subforum and put a moderator in charge of it!

exactly..

and then trying to pimp your own hack in a thread relating to a discussion of another is downright tasteless, at best, and stupid at worst..

there is no license violation, there is no issue this hack generating revenue vB itself won't see.. there is no issue.. the only issue existing is the fact people want something they now can't get due to someones idealistic view of something that isn't even said in the vB license.. zachaery/faranth/whatever he's called claiming this to be on par witht he lockdown hack is not only stupid, it's idiotic.. they are not even on the same level of hack nor with the same "possible" intention.. sabretoothe jumping on this like it's hot wax for anal hair and praising something not in the LA and then pimping his own upcoming hack is just as rediculous..

now, if a decision is to be made.. make it.. putting this kind of thing off is not only wrong for the forums, it wrong for the creator, users and wanna-be installers of this hack or any other facing this same decision..

this is, at this point, getting intolerable to see everything run amuk and no one caring on the upper levels enough to stop all of it and deal with it in a very reasonable manner.. if users want, deal with the users, even if they can't have.. don't put this stuff off and then pass it off as having no time.. if you have no time, don't disrupt in the first place..

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 12:58 PM

now, if a decision is to be made.. make it.. putting this kind of thing off is not only wrong for the forums, it wrong for the creator, users and wanna-be installers of this hack or any other facing this same decision..

this is, at this point, getting intolerable to see everything run amuk and no one caring on the upper levels enough to stop all of it and deal with it in a very reasonable manner.. if users want, deal with the users, even if they can't have.. don't put this stuff off and then pass it off as having no time.. if you have no time, don't disrupt in the first place..
Thank you, you are writing exactly what I'm thinking...

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 12:58 PM

and then trying to pimp your own hack in a thread relating to a discussion of another is downright tasteless, at best, and stupid at worst..please don't take it so seriously, if i release my hack it won't even be for another 6-8 months at best and that's if i release it! (i still have to learn to code first :() obviously my boyant mood isn't compatible with vb.org members today :(

* sabret00the shall edit the tasteless post in question.

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 12:59 PM

Another thing, could someone please tell me what this lockdown hack you all talk about is/was? Seems I wasn't here that time...

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 01:00 PM

the lockdown hack is "you must post in order to see the content of this thread" basically like a register in the thread.

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 01:16 PM

ok hopefully the last post on the subject.

how many of the subforum sites members will actually contribute to your community, will you run a community or just let your subforums make use of your license, how active a roll will you play in the subforums, how much input will you have into the subforums, what about moderation, will that be based on global rules? what if one of the sub-forums is something that you didn't envisage, how much of the content are you going to check to make sure it doesn't void your license? what will the subforums communitys be called? and will the members of said subforums even know you exist?
I have a hammer in my garage. That hammer was purchased from Home Depot with the implied agreement that I would use it to hammer things. If I use it to prop open a door, have I violated the terms of that agreement?

Furthermore, that hammer can do alot of great things. IMAGINE IT! I could build a house with that hammer! I could make a birds house for sick little birds...I might even use it to hang a picture next to my computer! But then again, I could also use it to build a shell casing for a weapon of mass desctruction. I could use it to bludgeon the head of a person I don't like anymore. I could use it to destroy my house, instead of improve upon it.

The point here is that damn near everything in this world can be used for good or evil. What gives any organization the right to tell us how to use the product we purchase from them? Banning a hack like this would be like the US Government saying that there is a mandatory 5 day waiting period on aluminum tubing because they *might* be used in the process of enriching uranium.

I understand that Jelsoft is interested in protecting their product, but there is a fine line between protectionism and isolationism...

MrNase

03-24-2004, 01:36 PM

I have a hammer in my garage. That hammer was purchased from Home Depot with the implied agreement that I would use it to hammer things. If I use it to prop open a door, have I violated the terms of that agreement?

Furthermore, that hammer can do alot of great things. IMAGINE IT! I could build a house with that hammer! I could make a birds house for sick little birds...I might even use it to hang a picture next to my computer! But then again, I could also use it to build a shell casing for a weapon of mass desctruction. I could use it to bludgeon the head of a person I don't like anymore. I could use it to destroy my house, instead of improve upon it.

The point here is that damn near everything in this world can be used for good or evil. What gives any organization the right to tell us how to use the product we purchase from them? Banning a hack like this would be like the US Government saying that there is a mandatory 5 day waiting period on aluminum tubing because they *might* be used in the process of enriching uranium.

I understand that Jelsoft is interested in protecting their product, but there is a fine line between protectionism and isolationism...
damned! I totally agree. Nice story btw.

I have a copy of this hack and i'll wait till the first stable is out or when jelsoft made their decision (whatever comes first :D)

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 01:37 PM

I really like to see it lol ;)

Wish i seen it before it was gone.

twoseven

03-24-2004, 01:44 PM

<a href="http://www.vbulletin-germany.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5185" target="_blank">http://www.vbulletin-germany.com/for...&threadid=5185</a> that link still has screen shots for it

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 01:49 PM

Don't see the screenshot. :(

twoseven

03-24-2004, 01:51 PM

they just took them offline. they were there 30mins ago sorry :(

insanctus

03-24-2004, 01:53 PM

I really like to see it lol ;)

Wish i seen it before it was gone.
I downloaded this, installed it and was starting to toy with it until this all came up.

Honestly I see nothing wrong with it, all it does is creates a subforum and puts the creator as a mod (after you approve it)

This does nothing you can not do legally cept save the admin time and set up.

So I guess what I am failing to see is what is so bad about this hack. To give someone a subforum is a far cry from them running a community or even half of one.

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 01:58 PM

I agree :(

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 01:59 PM

Don't see the screenshot. :(
That wasn't the correct link (vB2-Version). You can find the vB3 version at http://www.vbulletin-germany.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10175 contains the screenshots, however it seems you can't download the hack there if you aren't a vB-Germany customer.

lasto

03-24-2004, 02:08 PM

why is it available on vb-germany and not on here - i know jelsoft remeoved it but dont they own the other site as well ?

i say if its good enough for the germans its good enough for us :)

twoseven

03-24-2004, 02:08 PM

opps thanks gc my german is a bit rusty

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 02:15 PM

vB-Germany is owned by Adduco Digital which are resellers of vBulletin. They aren't as incautiously as Wayne Luke is, however I believe if Jelsoft really should decide they don't want to host vBHosting they will remove it there, too.

hypedave

03-24-2004, 02:16 PM

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 02:47 PM

It looks so good. :(

Zachery

03-24-2004, 02:53 PM

I have a hammer in my garage. That hammer was purchased from Home Depot with the implied agreement that I would use it to hammer things. If I use it to prop open a door, have I violated the terms of that agreement?

Furthermore, that hammer can do alot of great things. IMAGINE IT! I could build a house with that hammer! I could make a birds house for sick little birds...I might even use it to hang a picture next to my computer! But then again, I could also use it to build a shell casing for a weapon of mass desctruction. I could use it to bludgeon the head of a person I don't like anymore. I could use it to destroy my house, instead of improve upon it.

The point here is that damn near everything in this world can be used for good or evil. What gives any organization the right to tell us how to use the product we purchase from them? Banning a hack like this would be like the US Government saying that there is a mandatory 5 day waiting period on aluminum tubing because they *might* be used in the process of enriching uranium.

I understand that Jelsoft is interested in protecting their product, but there is a fine line between protectionism and isolationism...Just a note, Jelsoft already does prohibit one hack, and no one has ever had a problem with it before.

Also try buying a new laptop online ;)

They are classifed as a possible highly dangerous weapon :)

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 03:03 PM

Just a note, Jelsoft already does prohibit one hack, and no one has ever had a problem with it before.
not true, theirs quite a few people with a problem about the lockdown hack as theirs quite a lot of very legitimate and responsible uses for it.

Zachery

03-24-2004, 03:11 PM

not true, theirs quite a few people with a problem about the lockdown hack as theirs quite a lot of very legitimate and responsible uses for it.
Most people accepct it, for the fact that it can be used and most oftenly is used for this reason.

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 03:17 PM

Most people accepct it, for the fact that it can be used and most oftenly is used for this reason. i accept theirs no changing jelsofts mind, i couldn't be bothered about whether they're right or wrong, maybe one day when i wanna use the hack till then though :rolleyes: but none the less theirs a different between
no one has ever had a problem with it before. and Most people accepct it i mean even some of the site members have stated theirs legit uses for the hack. i personally would be interested in the effect it would have on debate forums, would people be less inclinded to go with the dominant flow? would it make debates more interesting? would it kill off debates completely? etc, etc, but that's all off topic :nervous:

Thanatos

03-24-2004, 03:27 PM

I wonder if that is an accurate statement that 'most people accept it'

or if it is just they are pretty much forced into silence about it here.

I know I don't accept it (but neither do I need it or use it either). This is just another example of strongarm tactics being selectively applied to something because it is simply possible to abuse it or because it is viewed as unpopular by TPTB (the powers that be).

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 04:23 PM

Most people accepct it, for the fact that it can be used and most oftenly is used for this reason.
You're missing the point.

My point was that almost anything can be considered to have a negative aspect depending on the viewpoint. To sit her and say that one modification over another has a more nefarious use puts Jelsoft in the realm of governing the content that people provide on their purchased product.

Those who run vBulletin.org reserve the right to refuse the publishing of a hack at any time, because you are providing a service to the public. However, saying a hack violates a license agreement is a different thing entirely, and Jelsoft can be taken to court for this. They are providing a good with a limited contract. They are not providing a service in which they can govern terms of usage.

As for the lockdown hack, which I was carefully trying to avoid, this is an instance in which Jelsoft has danced on the line of right and wrong. To my knowledge, you can install the lockdown hack, but you cannot publish that hack here or discuss it. This hack does have many good uses (like my hammer), but because Jelsoft has decided to focus on the negative, they have chosen to ban it in every way that they could.

After seeing twelve pages of rebuttals to Wayne's response...I would urge Jelsoft to reconsider their "review" of this hack...It looks like it could be a deadly corner they are backing themselves into. The last thin you want is your embeded constituency lashing out on all of those forums throughout the Internet where people ask, "which forum software should I buy?"

CMerritt

03-24-2004, 04:24 PM

Are there any changes that could be made to the hack to make it more palatable for Jelsoft?

For example, what if only existing moderators had access to add/modify subforums? That would require the admin to manage his/her moderating staff and would take out an element of the moderation.

I think the majority agrees that the elements of this hack that allow mods to modify their subforums is extremely valuable. So, is it possible to modify the hack to include those options, or is Jelsoft against the entire idea?

-Chad

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 04:27 PM

I'd also like to thank all of you that have shown support for my responses in this thread. It's good to know that people are actualyl reading what I type.

My entire life (and even the company I am a part of that uses our vBulletin installation) is dedicated to helping others. When I see an instance of a stifled growth or oppression of an opinion, it tends to kick my afterburners on.

I want all of you to know that if we keep this discussion civil, and present facts over feelings, that we can hopefully win this battle yet. I think that for what its worth, Jelsoft is not some big company governed by cold-hearted people, and that they look at situations like this objectively.

For every 1 nefarious use of a hack, there will be 20 of us that put it to good use, making vBulletin look *that* much better!

sabret00the

03-24-2004, 04:32 PM

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 04:40 PM

that we can hopefully win this battle yet.
You are missing the most important point here. There is no battle because we have no one we could "fight" against. They have removed the thread, and end. There is no official statement except what Wayne has written, saying we may get an official statement in about a week. Which is a week to much. Until then we can't do anything, and I fear until then we will be completely powered out (may this be Jelsofts strategy?).

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 04:45 PM

For example, what if only existing moderators had access to add/modify subforums? That would require the admin to manage his/her moderating staff and would take out an element of the moderation.

I think the majority agrees that the elements of this hack that allow mods to modify their subforums is extremely valuable. So, is it possible to modify the hack to include those options, or is Jelsoft against the entire idea?
Technically it would be possible, but it would not make it better for our point of view and for Jelsofts one. You can simply remove the administrators and give moderators access to the HostingCP. Many sites that do forum hosting do it that way. However this would mean that every moderator of a forum can modify its forums, and I don't want that everyone can do this. The other thing is that it would not reduce the problem Jelsoft has with the hack - if you call them administrator or moderator does not change what the system does.

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 04:49 PM

Technically it would be possible, but it would not make it better for our point of view and for Jelsofts one. You can simply remove the administrators and give moderators access to the HostingCP. Many sites that do forum hosting do it that way. However this would mean that every moderator of a forum can modify its forums, and I don't want that everyone can do this. The other thing is that it would not reduce the problem Jelsoft has with the hack - if you call them administrator or moderator does not change what the system does.
I think the question was more towards a simple: if usergroupid = moderator or great then show vbhosting.php else you don't have permission to view this page.

This would prevent normal users from trying to ask for a forum...only your moderators could do so.

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 05:42 PM

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 05:47 PM

vBHosting is a system that allows normal users to create forums. What you say would be a complete destruction of the system. This would be as if you take the Welcome Panel hack and say, it may be delivered and may do everything it does, it just may not output a welcome panel...

It also would not make sense. You can archieve the same result by creating an administrator with low permissions.
I think the most important thing to realize here, GameCrash, is that if we expect Jelsoft to be flexible on this matter, than perhaps we as the users should meet them halfway.

While from a legal standpoint I cannot condone the banning of a code modification, I do understand their concern about providing an automated system where ANY user can simply signup and create their own forum. Logistically speaking, this could pose problems for many users that simply aren't experienced in running sites.

I think we need to review the great capabilities of this hack, and decide where we can make comprimises to appease the Jelsoft team. An outright ban of the hack is VERY bad, but saying that they will work with us would be a step in the right direction.

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 05:52 PM

I think we need to review the great capabilities of this hack, and decide where we can make comprimises to appease the Jelsoft team. An outright ban of the hack is VERY bad, but saying that they will work with us would be a step in the right direction.
They are not saying they will work with us. They are not saying anything. And until then it would be a great mistake to make any compromises like that.

Kier

03-24-2004, 06:03 PM

You may not rent, lease, sublicence, sell, assign, pledge, transfer or otherwise dispose of the Software in any form...This one line causes the vBHosting hack to break the license agreement.

Even if you don't think it breaks the letter of license agreement, it is certainly contrary to the spirit of the license agreement, which is one license for one board.

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 06:06 PM

Why does vBulletin support the creation of multiple boards if this is not allowed?

filburt1

03-24-2004, 06:10 PM

Why does vBulletin support the creation of multiple boards if this is not allowed?
They don't. The only time you are permitted to have multiple installations is a private testing site.

BarHopper

03-24-2004, 06:13 PM

This is a brilliant hack, that i have been using since it was released. It has also brought Forum moralle up

GameCrash

03-24-2004, 06:15 PM

If you define a board as a installation of vBulletin, you are right. However, in that case, vBHosting does not create a board, just a subforum...

Another question to Kier, now as you are here: Do you archive support requests done via your support system?

lasto

03-24-2004, 06:34 PM

we had wayne remove the hack now the developer replies - i dont think we need wait a week for their decision as reading this thread its clear to see where this is going

Nowhere.

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 06:36 PM

This one line causes the vBHosting hack to break the license agreement.

Even if you don't think it breaks the letter of license agreement, it is certainly contrary to the spirit of the license agreement, which is one license for one board.

No court I know of would the "spirit" of the license agreement ever hold up.

By the terms and definitions set forth in the License agreement, it is decided that "The Software" is one installation, on database, one server, one domain. Since vBHosting conforms to that standard (New "Forums" are actually subforums, Using the same installation, same database, same server and same domain) therefore is not in violation of any license agreement.

I really hate to be the stick in the mud, Kier. I support everything you do. But when it comes to the letter of the law, I have to be honest.

VampireMan

03-24-2004, 06:51 PM

Please dont private message me to ask for this hack , i have asked the author about passint it on & he has said no. I will abide by his decision.

Also the files are on my scsi hard-drive that just failed, so even if he said yes it's impossible to get to them now.

SnowBot

03-24-2004, 06:52 PM

wow i go away for afew days and miss all theis.....

OK well i agree with most here i guess (even tho iv not seen the hack) it doesnt sound in JS interest. I also think that JS have a right to investigate the hack IF they feel it may be breaking copyright or whatever, it also protects the hacker and everyone who has installed it. If they have gone about this in the wrong way fine be angry but dont be angry about a company protecting its interests, this is a business not a free fun game at the end of the day.

Princeton

03-24-2004, 07:01 PM

This one line causes the vBHosting hack to break the license agreement.
Even if you don't think it breaks the letter of license agreement, it is certainly contrary to the spirit of the license agreement, which is one license for one board.
Can you define "board"?

That one line you quoted only relates to the license itself .... the vbhosting hack does not lease, rent, or give out "vb licenses" to anyone. This hack only enhances the functionality that is already there.

If and only if the administrator of the board (owner of license) allows/creates domain redirection than this is in violation of license.
vBulletin licence grants you the right to run one instance (a single installation) of the Software on one web server and one web site for each licence purchased. Each licence may power one instance of the Software on one domain.
just my .02 cents

Reeve of shinra

03-24-2004, 07:43 PM

Now the real question... would this hack have gone through so much controversy if it wasn't named VBHosting Hack? ;)

trafix

03-24-2004, 07:53 PM

YES! The original concern is that the hack requires another hack to install it (not the HTL) .... and did not include txt install instructions ... this is still an issue regarding the HTL

Ryan Ashbrook

03-24-2004, 07:53 PM

Now the real question... would this hack have gone through so much controversy if it wasn't named VBHosting Hack? ;)
I quite like the name SuperSubForums mentioned earlier in the thread. ;)

But seriously, I hope this hack gets put back up. As the customers of Jelsoft, who paid for the software, we shouldn't be penalized as people who want to legally use this hack, I see know problem with it, and SpeedStreet's posts are great sources that this hack doesn't violate the license agreement.

I was gonna download this hack when it was going to be released as a stable version but now, I can't.

Velocd

03-24-2004, 08:29 PM

The name of this hack is ambigiuous. When you imply hosting and vBulltin in the title, it gives the impression as if you were allowing others the ability to host their own vBs; clearly against the license. With such a title, this hack asked for Jelsoft's attention.

I've never heard of this hack until I read parts of this thread, and I'm not 100% sure as to how it works. When you say sub-forums, I assume you mean categories on your forums that you allow moderators to control? Certainly not an actual subforum--meaning sub-vBulletin system, for that obviously voids the license.

In the former case, I see nothing wrong with the hack, but I know not of all the details and Jelsoft's justifications. (nor do I really care about this whole argument since the hack itself is unappealing to me, but it's something to read I guess).

Wayne Luke

03-24-2004, 08:42 PM

Certainly not an actual subforum--meaning sub-vBulletin system, for that obviously voids the license.
Actually, this is exactly what the hack does. It allows every person on a site running this to create their own sub-community with a unique look and feel, control over their members, multiple forums and so forth.

It is a lot more than simply creating a forum on an installation.

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 08:46 PM

YES! The original concern is that the hack requires another hack to install it (not the HTL) .... and did not include txt install instructions ... this is still an issue regarding the HTL
No, you are confusing two issues.

One is an issue with vBulletin.org policies
One is an issue with JelSoft's license.

This hack (I have it and have been testing it) simply creates a new Forum within your existing forum. It uses the same db, same php files...same everything.

When you go into your admincp, the new forum appears just like all the rest.

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 08:51 PM

Actually, this is exactly what the hack does. It allows every person on a site running this to create their own sub-community with a unique look and feel, control over their members, multiple forums and so forth.

It is a lot more than simply creating a forum on an installation.
I think you need to check your facts.

It merely automates processes already existing in the vBulletin software.

Look and feel? This is accomplished by creating a child style, and giving the moderator the abililty to modify it. The only really neat feature is the ability to upload your own buttons.

Control over their members? Not quite. Members still have to register with the same domain and website. Members come from the same exact database as the rest of the site. The only option is the ability to manipulate the user mask of the forum the moderator is in charge of, effectively being able to ban them from that specific forum.

There have still been alot of accusations, but there has still been no valid reason for Jelsoft to ban this hack. If you are unwilling to read my previous posts where I made my points, then perhaps this arguement is moot.

I'm holding back one very critical and possibly damaging point concerning the licensing agreement. I'm very interested to hear an official statement from Jelsoft before I continue any further.

Velocd

03-24-2004, 09:19 PM

Actually, this is exactly what the hack does. It allows every person on a site running this to create their own sub-community with a unique look and feel, control over their members, multiple forums and so forth.

It is a lot more than simply creating a forum on an installation.

Hmm, that certainly shifts my judgement.

Your vBulletin license is applicable to one installation of vBulletin under your identity, and if you're allowing others to replicate your vBulletin under their name, it violates the policy of having a vBulletin without having a license. If you say the user is using your license, then that violates the rule where the installed vBulletin pertains to only the purchaser of the license.

Those of you with complaints of how having multiple administrators is in violation to the license--well, it isn't, because there is only 1 vBulletin in question there. When you create more than 1 vBulletin with unlicensed administrators, then things are in obvious concern.

The main argument provided against Jelsoft seems to be that this hack doesn't cross any boundaries, and isn't a "whole" vBulletin, but simply utilizies a portion.

To what significance is this portion in regard to vBulletin as a whole?

Well, this hack clearly seems to perform the principle feature of vBulletin--a system for creating and managing forums.

In this affect it goes against the license.

Stadler

03-24-2004, 09:23 PM

twoseven

03-24-2004, 09:33 PM

Those of you with complaints of how having multiple administrators is in violation to the license--well, it isn't, because there is only 1 vBulletin in question there. When you create more than 1 vBulletin with unlicensed administrators, then things are in obvious concern.

well from what i've seen there is still 1 database/vbull install and this is the same as the administrator(s) issue. the new forum is a subsection of the forum just giving the given catagory more specialization/automation so if a forum user sees the need it can be added with admin either accepting or deneying it. this whole thing has been beat to death already with this much discussion from us alone is either a good or bad sign.
speed street i'm glad you understand the legalities maybe vb will higher you to redefine their agreement
1 week timeframe is long enough for this to die and them sweep the hack under the rug just my opinion there

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 09:34 PM

Hmm, that certainly shifts my judgement.

Your vBulletin license is applicable to one installation of vBulletin under your identity, and if you're allowing others to replicate your vBulletin under their name, it violates the policy of having a vBulletin without having a license. If you say the user is using your license, then that violates the rule where the installed vBulletin pertains to only the purchaser of the license.

Those of you with complaints of how having multiple administrators is in violation to the license--well, it isn't, because there is only 1 vBulletin in question there. When you create more than 1 vBulletin with unlicensed administrators, then things are in obvious concern.

The main argument provided against Jelsoft seems to be that this hack doesn't cross any boundaries, and isn't a "whole" vBulletin, but simply utilizies a portion.

To what significance is this portion in regard to vBulletin as a whole?

Well, this hack clearly seems to perform the principle feature of vBulletin--a system for creating and managing forums.

In this affect it goes against the license.
To that effect, than any subforum you create and allow someone else to run with you is in direct violation.

Without testing the hack, it is impossible for you to make any type of judgement or informed opinion. The hack adds additional tables ot the database in order to allow for additional functionality for categories (also known as subforums). You are not appointing new administrators, merely enabling a moderator to have additional control over how the content is displayed in the forum areas of their responsibility.

The problem here is obviously the logistics of the naming convention being used

A vbHost Admin = A vB Moderator
A vbHost Forum = A vB SubForum
A vbHost Style = A vB child style
A vbHost Ban = a vB Access Mask
A vbHost User = an existing vB User
A vBHost Forum Creation Request = A vB Request for additional content which that person is offering to lead.

I run a 501c3 charity. Part of my site deals with locations throughout the world. The subforums in question are only created when there is a justification for them. Essentially, these forums are run by the Moderators appointed to govern them, and I give them the choice as to how they want their subcategories they want. At the current time, they PM me their requests, and I research whether or not it is a prudent idea.

According to the inferences in this thread, I am in direct violation of the license agreement for what would be considered User Demand/Driven Content.

You can't have it both ways. Either I am in the wrong, or vBHosting is in the right.

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 09:42 PM

My concern is that even though I am approaching this in a benign and innocent fashion, I can definitely see a surge of even more final fantasy boards spawning off additional boards because people don't understand the ramifications. We'll have hundreds of boards throughout the vBLand with 8,000 forums and 400 posts because every jerkass in the world will want to rule their own little section.

Given the choice between governance and self-reliance, the human tendency is to want to go your own way.

That being said, I am thoroughly concerned about the issues that the License Agreement poses. There is not enough verbiage to prohibit this type of behavior, and I would be more than happy to sit down with the group and analyze the loopholes. I understand Jelsoft's desire to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) but the possibility of litigation has been left wide open on several accounts.

I strongly urge GameCrash to go back to the drawing board and rework this hack to ensure that only limited users have access to forum creation. I think that the backend for forum manipulation is very powerful, and could be salvaged as a tremendous tool for all vBulletin users in the future.

I would like to hear from Jelsoft what they think a good comprimise would be. Thus far, this is the only way Moderators are able to add functionality to their parts of the board without being given explicit admin access.

Wayne Luke

03-24-2004, 09:44 PM

I run a 501c3 charity. Part of my site deals with locations throughout the world. The subforums in question are only created when there is a justification for them. Essentially, these forums are run by the Moderators appointed to govern them, and I give them the choice as to how they want their subcategories they want. At the current time, they PM me their requests, and I research whether or not it is a prudent idea. If these subforums are for the purposes of your international organization then you are not against the license agreement. If however you are creating forums for additional organizations and therefore sub-licensing vBulletin, then you are violating the license.

That is where the line is drawn. If this hack required people to be staff of the organization through moderator positions or administrator appointments, then there would be nothing wrong with it because it is a single installation on a single domain with a single organization and is not sub-licensing the software. However since it allows any registrant to in effect create their own community with unlimited control of how many forums, the look and feel of the forum, links back to their independant website and control over who can post and not post in the forum (via banning privileges), it violates the sub-licensing portion of the licensing agreement. And before you state that I should look at the hack and install it, I have it installed and I have looked at the code and I know exactly what it does.

It allows vBulletin License holder to issue defacto sub-licenses so that others can use the software. Even has a place where you can state your terms and conditions of their use of a license that a License holder has no right to grant..

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 09:47 PM

If these subforums are for the purposes of your international organization then you are not against the license agreement. If however you are creating forums for additional organizations and therefore sub-licensing vBulletin, then you are violating the license.

That is where the line is drawn. If this hack required people to be staff of the organization through moderator positions or administrator appointments, then there would be nothing wrong with it because it is a single installation on a single domain with a single organization and is not sub-licensing the software. However since it allows any registrant to in effect create their own community with unlimited control of how many forums, the look and feel of the forum, links back to their independant website and control over who can post and not post in the forum (via banning privileges), it violates the sub-licensing portion of the agreement agreement. And before you state that I should look at the hack and install it, I have it installed and I have looked at the code and I know exactly what it does.

It allows vBulletin License holder to issue defacto sub-licenses so that others can use the software. Even has a place where you can state your terms and conditions.
Wayne,

Good post, before I respond, I'd like to see if you have a response for my previous message...sorry for my post whoring :)

13th_Disciple

03-24-2004, 09:51 PM

these are subforums, people.. not another instance of vbulletin itself, not "another vb", not anything like wayne and velocd are refering to.. it merely adds functionality for assigned users to SUB-FORUMS to be able to MODIFY the look and FEEL of a SUB-FORUM..

you can't just walk in someones forum, decide you want a sub-forum, and create one and modify it..

that is not what this does.. it allows an admin to create sub-forums for other folks to have their own look and feel for their SUB-FORUM of a SINGLE INSTANCE of a SINGLE INSTALL of vBulletin using the same database and the same php files..

Kiers reply doesn't hold water, imo because this is not passing out the source of the software.. this is allowing style/ template mods of an already existing, fully licensed version of vBulletin..

this arguement is serving no purpose for any one community.. let alone the broken community of a slowly becomg defunct vBulletin.org, that consistently changes it policies, rules and hack info based on what they decide instead of basing it on the one thing they are here for and completely overlook.. community..

that has been proven almost on a weekly basis anymore with the people leaving and creating their own sites to produce hacks for vBulletin itself..

now, with the thought of changing the license agreement in mind, if it changes every time a version change occurs, so will the user base of vBulletin.. clearly this is a recognized issue.. and clearly some of the "higher ups" have recognized that the community here shows interest in something such as this hack or HTL or even the lockdown hack.. now, i understand laws and even understand attorneys and the issues this could create.. but surely it's a recognized fact that the only consistent thing with this site and almost all of vB as a whole is the consistently changing rules.. this has got to stop if there is to be a core of anything.. else a 160 dollar license ain't such a good investment..

Wayne Luke

03-24-2004, 09:58 PM

that is not what this does.. it allows an admin to create sub-forums for other folks to have their own look and feel for their SUB-FORUM of a SINGLE INSTANCE of a SINGLE INSTALL of vBulletin using the same database and the same php files..
Actually, it does allow any member to create a sub-forum without admin intervention with the proper settings. it allows multiple and unlimited forums to be created with the proper settings. It is much more than simple sub-forums.

I can demonstrate this if you truly wish me to using the same code that was being distributed here.

Dark Shogun

03-24-2004, 09:58 PM

Hmm, that certainly shifts my judgement.

Your vBulletin license is applicable to one installation of vBulletin under your identity, and if you're allowing others to replicate your vBulletin under their name, it violates the policy of having a vBulletin without having a license. If you say the user is using your license, then that violates the rule where the installed vBulletin pertains to only the purchaser of the license.

Those of you with complaints of how having multiple administrators is in violation to the license--well, it isn't, because there is only 1 vBulletin in question there. When you create more than 1 vBulletin with unlicensed administrators, then things are in obvious concern.

The main argument provided against Jelsoft seems to be that this hack doesn't cross any boundaries, and isn't a "whole" vBulletin, but simply utilizies a portion.

To what significance is this portion in regard to vBulletin as a whole?

Well, this hack clearly seems to perform the principle feature of vBulletin--a system for creating and managing forums.

In this affect it goes against the license.
From what I gathered from reading the original hack thread and this one the board and forums would still be under the super admin identify but they allow people to make a forum to mod. As stated there is on one set of files, database, and domain. Now if you (Jelsoft) want to try and find a loop hole then that is up to you but if you are taking the license at face value then this hack should be allowed. As I and a few others have said you can do almost everything this hack does without the hack itself except the automated parts. If I wanted to allow someone to setup a forum on my installation that I am currently using all I would have to do is set them as a mini admin and they can make all the forums they want and Jelsoft wouldn't know. But my question was never answered earlier. What if you have a single vbulletin and have a network of sites and each site wants it's own catergory and forums? Each site has different owners but all site owners are owners under the whole network.

Dark Shogun

Wayne Luke

03-24-2004, 10:00 PM

I would like to hear from Jelsoft what they think a good comprimise would be. Thus far, this is the only way Moderators are able to add functionality to their parts of the board without being given explicit admin access. If re-worked so that the control of the sub-forums is only available from the Moderator Control Panel and only administrator appointed staff could be assigned to control specific sub-forums this will probably be an acceptable hack. However, to enable anyone to install this and host 1000 forums of their own is not.

It would also have to include a standalone text file for it not to be reliant on external hacks even if the hack is included in the installation.

Dark Shogun

03-24-2004, 10:12 PM

If re-worked so that the control of the sub-forums is only available from the Moderator Control Panel and only administrator appointed staff could be assigned to control specific sub-forums this will probably be an acceptable hack. However, to enable anyone to install this and host 1000 forums of their own is not.

It would also have to include a standalone text file for it not to be reliant on external hacks even if the hack is included in the installation.So are you saying the decision is basically made and that the hack will not be allowed unless those changes are made to it? Also I didn't see anything in the license about single "organization".

Dark Shogun

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 10:13 PM

So this hack is banned ? ..... ?

forum4games

03-24-2004, 10:19 PM

So this hack is banned ? ..... ?

I guess so, but what did you expect from VBulletin? They don't give a cr** about you, me or anyone here. They just worry about lining there pockets with our money!

Thank god I only 'leased' and once that runs out Invision here I come....

Wayne Luke

03-24-2004, 10:20 PM

If re-worked so that the control of the sub-forums is only available from the Moderator Control Panel and only administrator appointed staff could be assigned to control specific sub-forums this will probably be an acceptable hack. However, to enable anyone to install this and host 1000 forums of their own is not.

It would also have to include a standalone text file for it not to be reliant on external hacks even if the hack is included in the installation. Here is my example to prove my point: http://www.vbulletinmods.com/index.php?

Go ahead and sign up and you can have your own hosted community in as little as five minutes.

And irregardless of the statements about this making mods' lives easier, the way it is set up there is the intent and purpose of the this hack. At stated by the original post and by the options provided.

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 10:23 PM

If re-worked so that the control of the sub-forums is only available from the Moderator Control Panel and only administrator appointed staff could be assigned to control specific sub-forums this will probably be an acceptable hack. However, to enable anyone to install this and host 1000 forums of their own is not.

It would also have to include a standalone text file for it not to be reliant on external hacks even if the hack is included in the installation.
FOR THOSE OF YOU NOT PAYING ATTENTION, THIS IS A COMPRIMISE

Based on the concerns of the vBulletin staff, I think this comprimise should be addressed.

GameCrazy, would you be willing to rework your hack to allow for this?

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 10:32 PM

Here is my example to prove my point: http://www.vbulletinmods.com/index.php?

Go ahead and sign up and you can have your own hosted community in as little as five minutes.

And irregardless of the statements about this making mods' lives easier, the way it is set up there is the intent and purpose of the this hack. At stated by the original post and by the options provided.
To prove the point Wayne was trying to make, I developed three forums before my email had a chance to even notify me of the first one.

Check out Wayne's link...This is an example of putting it in the wrong hands...but used properly, it can be a great tool.

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 10:32 PM

Im gonna sign up there now just to check this hack even tho i think its unfair of vBulletin.

Wayne Luke

03-24-2004, 10:35 PM

Check out Wayne's link...This is an example of putting it in the wrong hands...but used properly, it can be a great tool. Go ahead and play with it.. Change the colors and the header and footer in the HostingCP control panel.

Only took me 10 minutes to setup and will only take me 3 minutes to remove later.

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 10:35 PM

i think this hack rocks so much it has nothing to do with stoping vBulletin

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 10:38 PM

i think this hack rocks so much it has nothing to do with stoping vBulletin
Well that's a positive contribution :sarcasm:

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 10:42 PM

SpeedStreet

03-24-2004, 10:46 PM

i know vBulletin dont like it since well say they might lose sales from this well thats what they think say they lose 5 sales a week from this ( not gonna happen i know )

they lose $800 a week thats $3200 a month

and $38,400 a year

i think. lol
With grammar that poor, I can barely understand anything you are trying to say.

And aren't you running PHPBB anyways???

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 10:49 PM

No i hate phpbb i never used it

i moved from ib.

sorry what i was trying to say is,

If this hack killed 6 sales a week from vBulletin.com then they will lose so much.

thats most prob why they wont let it.

Chris|vB

03-24-2004, 10:50 PM

Anyways this case is closed right ?

We cant use it. simple as.

Wayne Luke

03-24-2004, 10:56 PM

We cant use it. simple as.
There may be a compromise solution available to release it in a modified form. We would have to hold discussions with GameCrash and try to work out an agreement.

Link14716

03-24-2004, 10:58 PM

I'll probably use it anyways - just not set up to be that lineaunt(sp?). This would be killer for forum RPGs.

lasto

03-24-2004, 11:04 PM

wayne aint u just broke your own rules by installing it and allowig us to mess with it.
In jelsofts eyes regardless of who u r - that is now classed as a pirated board as your license is now void.I know u showing us an example of what it can do but thats no excuse.

Compromise is fine but i can see this hack becoming a lot less cause its guts will be ripped out and we be left with hardly any of the orginal hack.

Anyway i do see your point as ive just been there and made a test forum and imagine some idiot on your forum making loads just for the fun of it - its gonna be a big board.
Maybe when someone makes one how about a admin or supermod has to authourise it first before it goes though.
Same with buttons etc - have set ones and they pick a certain style and we authourise that as well then they basically have no control as we have the last say on it.

trafix

03-24-2004, 11:21 PM

lasto

03-24-2004, 11:26 PM

i know that i was being funnie........................ Also u never heard of trying it local on your own comp - if we done that they tell us to remove it would`nt they ?

But what aint funnie is how they gonna strip a hack cause it dont fit in with their beliefs of what a vbull board can do and cant do.

Im curious what could vbull do to a live site with someone running this vbhosting in its present format ?

Could they have it closed etc ?

ap0c

03-24-2004, 11:27 PM

Oh dear god ....

How can he investigate the hack and find out exactly what it does without installing it!:D

the temp site is 500 error, guess he got busted by the man;)

ap0c

03-24-2004, 11:29 PM

lasto

03-24-2004, 11:30 PM

fair enough - just wondering thats all :)

trafix

03-24-2004, 11:34 PM

Yes you will get one warning .... then take action

Wayne Luke

03-24-2004, 11:37 PM

:D

the temp site is 500 error, guess he got busted by the man;)
Maybe it is you. The site still works for me.

anguilla1980

03-24-2004, 11:44 PM

Well I got lucky enough to get the BETA 2 version of this hack before it was shutdown and install it. I still don't have the sub forums I created public. HOWEVER, when I installed it I left the options so that THE admin for the main forum had to fully approve and ok the new forums creation and the option to even request a new forum at the top of the board is non-existant in my forum. Why the heck would you want that anyway, shoot, you may come back in 1 day and find that 700 of your members created their own forum! Come on now, what sense does that make.

What I'm saying is use common sense. I would NEVER leave any option anywhere for anyone to ever do anything to my board without my personaly knowledge and OK, I'm also sure ALL admins here would feel the same. Just remove that specific ability from this hack and be done with it!

Thank you.

Link14716

03-24-2004, 11:47 PM

I think all that needs to be done is take away the web site crap except for logo - renaming that field. The only way I see this breaking the LA is if it is used to host a board for other sites. Take away the options for the web site and then we have Super SubForums.

Velocd

03-24-2004, 11:55 PM

Hm, now that I actually see a demonstration of this hack from Wayne's site, I acknowledge my previous statements were somewhat over emphasized.

Still, this hack needs to be re-worked in the instructions Wayne provided.

Another good suggestion would to make the shell interface for the subforum manager to look not like the AdminCP. If you made it look more like the forum style, and redesign it, and less of the AdminCP and perhaps even used your own coding (since much of it looks like copy and paste) then it would have a better chance of being accepted by Jelsoft. Otherwise you are giving unlicensed users a taste of what vBulletin licensed administrators can access.

My last bits of commentary. ;)

Link14716

03-24-2004, 11:59 PM

Well, it's not like there are 50 ways to code print_yes_no_row ;)

ap0c

03-24-2004, 11:59 PM

Maybe it is you. The site still works for me.had to switch to insecure mode in order to see it, yep it's still there.:)
From the looks of it, 2 things stick out:
- url back to your site, actually that whole section where it asks for links needs to go
-the way you set it up, sub forums dont need approval first, meaning that option needs to go

Other than those two "features," most of the rest could be done right now with a lesser admin panel hack set up for registered users. The only added feature that would be needed is the style altering section.

Digital_Madness

03-25-2004, 12:24 AM

How is this hack any different than the Moderator access mask hack from vb 2.0? I see that it adds a nice gui front end along with a streamlined way to deal with the requests.

hypedave

03-25-2004, 12:55 AM

There may be a compromise solution available to release it in a modified form. We would have to hold discussions with GameCrash and try to work out an agreement.
Thankyou

eXtremeTim

03-25-2004, 12:56 AM

We payed for our liscenses and then we get all the good hacks limited down half the time. I didnt hear any problems with the vb2 user created forums hack which did part of what this allowed. It allowed users to create boards and could have been used to host boards for other sites to a good degree.

FASherman

03-25-2004, 01:09 AM

FASherman

03-25-2004, 01:17 AM

if i'm honest i think the hack is blatantly a violation of the JLA and should've been removed, i'm not an elitest, i don't tend to mind when i find out a board was illegitimate, but that's a non-legit board out right, this hack tried to create a loop hole and that's just wrong, people should just go out and buy a license and hosting if they wanna be legit.

although i think the noble thing on the side of Jelsoft would be to buy the code outright and then it's upto them if they wanna release a "vBulletin vBhosting version".

* sabret00the thinks this thread is just getting in the way of more pressing issues raised over at vb.com regarding vb.org

We have the opinion of a copyright lawyer above that says you're flat out wrong. Where did you get your law degree?

FASherman

03-25-2004, 01:32 AM

This one line causes the vBHosting hack to break the license agreement.

Even if you don't think it breaks the letter of license agreement, it is certainly contrary to the spirit of the license agreement, which is one license for one board.

Of course this is only your opinion and, as such, is non-binding. The only way you can elevate this assertion from opinion to fact is through a court finding. Should you choose to do so, the burden of proof is on Jelsoft. The hack user need not prove the negative of the assertion, but can certainly show through history that the hack merely does via automation what others have done for years manually. Your lack of enforcement in that matter will indicate implicit acceptance of this arrangement as NOT in violation. Hence the hack user, and the hack by extension, will be found to be not in violation of either the letter or the spirit because it merely automates that which you have given implicit acceptance of in the past.

Jelsoft CANNOT win this one.

13th_Disciple

03-25-2004, 01:43 AM

yeah.. but sadly they can keep you from getting your hands on it if they don't want it on their site(s)..

i disagree 1000% percent with the idea this hack is illegal, against the LA, or will do jelsoft harm.. what is doing the harm here, at least in my opinion, is the oppression of certain things based on someone elses understanding, or lack there of, of the current LA and no real clarification of things for days or weeks at a time..

FASherman

03-25-2004, 01:44 AM

If these subforums are for the purposes of your international organization then you are not against the license agreement. If however you are creating forums for additional organizations and therefore sub-licensing vBulletin, then you are violating the license.

Wayne just gave the answer folks.

1. The website entity owns the VB license. In other words, the license belongs to "MyWebsite Club", running vb as forums.mywebsite.com. Be sure to write by-laws and/or a constitution and elect the minimum officers required by law, normally a President, VP and secretary. Treasurers are required if money is exchanged (ie membership dues)

2. As part of the registration, members agree that they are also members of "MyWebSite Club". Now they are part owner of the VB license, since it is owned by the entity, not an individual. A single individual is merely the point-of-contact.

3. Any club member in good standing, as dictated by the by-laws can create any number of sub-forums. Any look and feel and any topic. It is not a license violation since they are part owner.

And that is that.

FASherman

03-25-2004, 01:54 AM

Here is my example to prove my point: http://www.vbulletinmods.com/index.php?

Go ahead and sign up and you can have your own hosted community in as little as five minutes.

And irregardless of the statements about this making mods' lives easier, the way it is set up there is the intent and purpose of the this hack. At stated by the original post and by the options provided.

I just did and guess what? If you go to court and try to claim this sublicenses VB, you will get your head handed to you by the judge.

Can I manage smilies, avatars, PM, users, calendars? Can I turn off searches? No on all accounts.

I find it laughable that anyone would claim this very, very limited functionality is a relicense or sublicense.

YOU INSULT OUR INTELLIGENCE.

If, by providing us access to a working hack you hoped to make your point, you fell woefully short. You only exposed the weakness of your assertion.

FASherman

03-25-2004, 01:57 AM

Oh dear god ....

How can he investigate the hack and find out exactly what it does without installing it!

With the test board that, according to the LA, he can run on a server not available to the public.

Brad

03-25-2004, 01:59 AM

I don't understand why you guys are getting so worked up over this hack, jelsoft has a right to pull anything posted on this site if they belive it violates the licensed agreement, they have stated that the hack will be reviewed and a answer come soon.

Reeve of shinra

03-25-2004, 02:00 AM

VB made thier decision and expressed the concerns they had and are willing to work with the creator of the hack to modify the code so its suitable for every ones needs and interests. Aside from whinning what do you hope to gain by this?

FASherman

03-25-2004, 02:13 AM

Dark Shogun

03-25-2004, 02:19 AM

Personally I find the fact that they pulled it weak. BUT as was claimed here it is their site so let them do what they want with it. Having the creator of that hack remake it or edit a lot of stuff is just plain wrong in my opinion and stifles the creativity of the creator.

Wait I just came up with an idea. Why not pass all hacks that are made from now on through vbulletin.com's staff so they can approve it before everyone else sees it that way nothing like this will EVER happen again.

Dark Shogun

Thanatos

03-25-2004, 02:21 AM

All the more reason for a VB Hackers community not under Jelsoft's thumb.

/agree.

Reeve of shinra

03-25-2004, 02:26 AM

Just to play devils advocate,... since it is a copyright violation for anyone to share the vbulletin code, don't you think that jelsoft could shut down a hack site if they felt that particular site was stretching the spirit of the agreement?

I think alot of people need to learn the value of compromising. When you draw a hard line in the sand then that forces the other party to take an equally hard stance... in the end thats unpleasant for everyone where-as a willingness to work with each other fosters harmony and help everyone reach thier mutal goals faster.