bloody outrageous prices for "Jiveforums"! my god...

[KuraFire]

http://www.jivesoftware.com/products/pricing.jsp

Now keep in mind that this piece of "forum software" is as good as UBB 1.0 from like five years ago.

Unbelievable that people actually get sucked into this sorta scam... :(

[Rein Masamuri]

when I found this the only thing I could think was price Gouging

[KuraFire]

when I found this the only thing I could think was price Gouging
if the price-quality ratio for Jiveforums would be applied to vBulletin 3, vB3 would've had to cost about #150.000 per license.

Kinda skewed if you ask me ;)

[Rein Masamuri]

Thats $150,000.00 for all you people who can't read code :p

[colicab-d]

wow, scam or what!?! this cant be rite, they really are workin folk over here, i mean its not liek they cant know about hings like ib even phpbb and yet they sell this at these prices... i dont bloomin think so, but i guess thats there aim to get folk who dont know better eh?

[pie]

http://www.jivesoftware.com/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=11562

Ive raised a question :)

[Velocd]

Maybe they are trying to set some kind of enterprise solution that appeals to large businesses. (since some people are stuck in this fog where more expensive = higher quality)

Still, this is the most ridiculously priced software I've seen on the web. From what it looks, it's nothing compared to vB3 or vB2.

[KuraFire]

It's nothing compared to vB1 even, if you ask me. There are, like, hardly any features, and what little there is is really not that noteworthy.

Also, the two 'big' features (spellcheck + points system) don't exactly strike me as `very useful for big corporate businesses`, either... :/

[sabret00the]

lol they never shy'd from pie's thread, although they may as well have as they didn't say anything special lol

[filburt1]

if the price-quality ratio for Jiveforums would be applied to vBulletin 3, vB3 would've had to cost about #150.000 per license.

Kinda skewed if you ask me ;)
Jive Forums is used on sites as massive as Sun's official Java forums, and businesses are clearly the target of the product.

I would also say that a Java product would be a cleaner version of a solution than a PHP product any day.

[KuraFire]

Jive Forums is used on sites as massive as Sun's official Java forums, and businesses are clearly the target of the product.

I would also say that a Java product would be a cleaner version of a solution than a PHP product any day.

That is definitely not necessarily so. A java product can be cleaner, but it requires great java skills before it will be. Java can be a great language, very efficient and powerful, but when written by someone with only medium-good (or less) skills it can be a complete nightmare.

[vbmechanic]

Do a search for "vbulletin" on their forums :p

[vbmechanic]

>>Jive Forums is used on sites as massive as Sun's official Java forums

And seriously... would Sun use anything BUT a Java product for their Java forums? I think their choices were rather limited.

[Dean C]

It looks good to me and [what filburt said here] :)

[Velocd]

It looks good to me and [what filburt said here] :)
Large corporations and businesses aren't too fond of GNU and open-source languages. vBulletin falling under PHP makes it less appealing toward these corporations. Since corporations have the money, it's nothing to them for spending $400 bucks on a small software.

Maybe if vBulletin was in ASP .NET :rolleyes:

I've been posting at a forum recently that I just noticed was Jive:
http://www.vmware.com/community/index.jspa

[pie]

I replied.

Its so featureless for version 3.2.3.... i mean, what were the others like! It seems very much like the thing, if the price looks good it must be as good as it says it is.

Anything any of you want me to ask/say?

[KuraFire]

I've been posting at a forum recently that I just noticed was Jive:
http://www.vmware.com/community/index.jspa


Either I've only seen Jive run on REALLY slow servers, or the Jive forum software is nowhere near as fast as vBulletin.

Until I see a site with Jive running faster than the EvB forums, I'm not gonna believe their remarks on "speed"... :)

[KuraFire]

I replied.

Its so featureless for version 3.2.3.... i mean, what were the others like! It seems very much like the thing, if the price looks good it must be as good as it says it is.

Anything any of you want me to ask/say?

I agree. It seems only interesting for major corporations that want no specific features, just:
make posts, make threads, make forums, and be able to edit the aforementioned three features (wow, doubling the feature count!).

*shrugs* Maybe for big companies that works. For any generic site running vBulletin (or, should they be so unlucky, IPB ;)), Jive would and will never suffice.

Ask them why they have none of the features that have been conventional forum standard for the past 4 years. :D

Real name: Pie

*laughs* ^_^:up:

[AWS]

I agree. It seems only interesting for major corporations that want no specific features, just:
make posts, make threads, make forums, and be able to edit the aforementioned three features (wow, doubling the feature count!).

*shrugs* Maybe for big companies that works. For any generic site running vBulletin (or, should they be so unlucky, IPB ;)), Jive would and will never suffice.

Ask them why they have none of the features that have been conventional forum standard for the past 4 years. :D



*laughs* ^_^:up:
A thread like this just shows how much vb users don't know about enterprise software. Jive is enterprise software. It is built to be used on large sites by large corporations. Enterprise software is rarely flashy with a lot of UI features. It is built to scale. It has features that vb will never have even with hacks. The db layer is built to use the high end options such as Oracle and DBase.

The price isn't bad when you consider the only other enterprise forum software that I know of is Open Topic.

You have to look behind the UI to see why Jive is worth every dollar they charge.

[colicab-d]

A thread like this just shows how much vb users don't know about enterprise software. Jive is enterprise software. It is built to be used on large sites by large corporations. Enterprise software is rarely flashy with a lot of UI features. It is built to scale. It has features that vb will never have even with hacks. The db layer is built to use the high end options such as Oracle and DBase.

The price isn't bad when you consider the only other enterprise forum software that I know of is Open Topic.

You have to look behind the UI to see why Jive is worth every dollar they charge.

All very fair and true... but look at the huge vbs out there, vb is 100% industry standard etc complys to a heck of a lot, and is written in a non commercial language that isnt gonna cost companys more ??? to have a server running a db of oracle etc???

Also these users will be running sites from huge servers etc...

So wouldnt software that was not only industry compliant but with a huge public follwoing and knowledge db be better?

But hey what do i know lol :D

[filburt1]

But hey what do i know lol :D
No offense, but it doesn't seem to be much. JSP is free to deploy with Tomcat and Apache (usually the pair of choice, although JRun is used a bit), JSP solutions are extremely scalable, vB hardly complies with all standards...

You're also forgetting that most users really could care less about a calendar, customizable FAQ, (annoying) DHTML animated menus, groupable smilie sets, customizable BB codes...they just want to get help from other users with their problems. Mostly the only feature that Sun's forums have other than their useful Duke Dollars is the [code] tag. When I've been posting at their forums for Java help, I never really have felt constrained...I mean how often do you truly use every feature of vB, IPB, phpBB, etc.?

If I was running an enterprise, I would just feel more comfortable buying a product that cost more than $160 when I knew it could be the difference between millions of dollars of revenue.

[colicab-d]

Filburt i wouldnt of said that unless i meant it, like i say im no coder etc im just a desginer.... sheeesh lol

ultiemately none of us will ever really use nor need this software, nor will anyone heer pay those prices... excpet big companys so who cares? i dont i have vb and for what i need it,ll do for now

*hmm may have contradicted myself a little ah well like i say what do i know eh filby ;)


tho i would think theyre would be a tonne of free or small price and well coded, php , or asp alternatives to this..... that like u say dont have calendars etc and are for users wantin a quick post help

also u talk of revenue... im not sure how your gonna generate cash by running a forum with no ads thats a support resource, possibley on a free service.

i guess its the scneario ur in eh

[msimplay]

No offense, but it doesn't seem to be much. JSP is free to deploy with Tomcat and Apache (usually the pair of choice, although JRun is used a bit), JSP solutions are extremely scalable, vB hardly complies with all standards...

You're also forgetting that most users really could care less about a calendar, customizable FAQ, (annoying) DHTML animated menus, groupable smilie sets, customizable BB codes...they just want to get help from other users with their problems. Mostly the only feature that Sun's forums have other than their useful Duke Dollars is the [code] tag. When I've been posting at their forums for Java help, I never really have felt constrained...I mean how often do you truly use every feature of vB, IPB, phpBB, etc.?

If I was running an enterprise, I would just feel more comfortable buying a product that cost more than $160 when I knew it could be the difference between millions of dollars of revenue.
hmm thats where u'd be wrong it depends on the context of the forum itself
fair enough i don't run a large site however
a friend of mine does and those features u mentioned are in regular use on mine and his site
if smilies were not there they would definately complain.
Simply because they are standard on most forum software
also custamisable faq is admin side not user side
you only have too look at real.com and even their forums have smilies , pms , bbcode etc etc

[colicab-d]

i agree msimplay, i mean some of the best known public support forums run software that is better than this by miles.. companys like real etc, also if a company is looking for a smaller solution, then would it not look to its own web department? maybe hire a 3rd party to code a custom solution, that will in all cases come well doucmented

[vbmechanic]

>>The price isn't bad when you consider the only other enterprise forum software that I know of is Open Topic.

Don't forget Web Crossing. Used to run CNN and ESPN forums.. not sure if it still does.

[KuraFire]

No offense, but it doesn't seem to be much. JSP is free to deploy with Tomcat and Apache (usually the pair of choice, although JRun is used a bit), JSP solutions are extremely scalable, vB hardly complies with all standards...

Neither does Jive forums:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.jivesoftware.com/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=11562

:D

[filburt1]

Neither does Jive forums:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.jivesoftware.com/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=11562

:D
I wasn't necessarily talking about XHTML compliance but 80-character-line-limits, accessibility compliancy including section 508, etc.

Queue a developer to retaliate, but I feel that my opinions are valid.

[AWS]

I wasn't necessarily talking about XHTML compliance but 80-character-line-limits, accessibility compliancy including section 508, etc.

Queue a developer to retaliate, but I feel that my opinions are valid.
You have valid points. In fact you're the first person that I have seen here that actually understands the differences.
Jive is made to handle large forums. Large forums are not forums that have 2 mill posts and 40K users. Large forums are forums such as ESPNs, which was mentioned above. Which gets upwards of 1 mil online at a time and 5000 or so posts every minute. Jive could handle this. Open Topic could handle it. The enterprise forum that ESPN uses can and does handle it. Vbulletin could not.
You also have to remember. The users of large forums, forums like I describe above, don't care about the UI. They want to be able to post their comments and read the replies. They could care less about smilies. They just distract from the flow of the discussion.

[msimplay]

You have valid points. In fact you're the first person that I have seen here that actually understands the differences.
Jive is made to handle large forums. Large forums are not forums that have 2 mill posts and 40K users. Large forums are forums such as ESPNs, which was mentioned above. Which gets upwards of 1 mil online at a time and 5000 or so posts every minute. Jive could handle this. Open Topic could handle it. The enterprise forum that ESPN uses can and does handle it. Vbulletin could not.
You also have to remember. The users of large forums, forums like I describe above, don't care about the UI. They want to be able to post their comments and read the replies. They could care less about smilies. They just distract from the flow of the discussion. could ave just said that before :p
guess thats why they use oracle
hmm i wonder which forum does 5000 posts per minute
i want to see one i've never seen a website that busy before

[Velocd]

I don't think there are any 5000posts/minute forums out there :p

While vBulletin may be able to contain tons and tons of members and still function, it can't sufficiently manage the bandwidth that gets passed around, not to mention the server load generated. I've been on huge vBulletin sites that go slow as hell when trying to navigate. (obviously other factors go into consideration here)

Jive and other software built on Java or more stable platforms than PHP&MySQL have a better edge at the enterprise market.

For a large business, stability is the most priceless asset. Even somewhat negligible downtime would likely ensure loss of clients.

vBulletin stands above in features, but as mentioned (I think), abundant features aren't important for enterprise solutions.

[KuraFire]

I wasn't necessarily talking about XHTML compliance but 80-character-line-limits, accessibility compliancy including section 508, etc.

Queue a developer to retaliate, but I feel that my opinions are valid.
REAL accessibility starts with complete Webstandards compliance, so the architecture should be:

1) fully compliant XHTML 1.1 Trans or better;
2) fully compliant CSS and as meaningful markup as possible;
3) Section 508 compliance;
4) WCA G compliance;

Just going for 508 compliance without even so much as a doctype won't really cut the bill. Sure, it may work for screenreaders, but you cannot justifiably use the phrase "we are compliant with all accessibility requirements".

Anyhoo, I understand the difference, just didn't think about it when I made the first post :)

Oh, and ESPN uses a cgi-based board on the MSN Network. ;p

[colicab-d]

bulletin is not necessarily slow on large sites, theres things to consider like... is mysql on a seperate server? what kind of bandwidth is vb`s images using no tot mention any styles etc... even with the basic skin a lot of image bandwidth could be used, theres always the little niggles etc that can help speed up a forum, i mean if vb used no images and stuck to txt based or css defined buttons (u know those site that use only css type deals).

Sorry if i seem cheeky in what i say, im just eager to learn, not startin fights etc :D

>> Just coverin me ass lol

[KuraFire]

(u know those site that use only css type deals).
My upcoming site will have CSS buttons instead of image buttons for virtually all buttons used on vB :)

It'll also be a predominantly table-less design, with innovative new approaches to forumdesigning ^_^

[Wayne Luke]

Which gets upwards of 1 mil online at a time and 5000 or so posts every minute. Jive could handle this. Open Topic could handle it. The enterprise forum that ESPN uses can and does handle it. Vbulletin could not.
Actually, Disney is currently evaluating vBulletin to replace its current forum system on all its sites including ESPN because the current system cannot handle the load.

[KuraFire]

Actually, Disney is currently evaluating vBulletin to replace its current forum system on all its sites including ESPN because the current system cannot handle the load.
Seriously, Wayne? Like, they've contacted you (Jelsoft) about that?

[Zachery]

Seriously, Wayne? Like, they've contacted you (Jelsoft) about that?
That would be very awsome :D

[Hobbes]

Actually, Disney is currently evaluating vBulletin to replace its current forum system on all its sites including ESPN because the current system cannot handle the load.
disney and espn..dude! :) that would pwn..

[Alien]

No, owning Disney and ESPN would pwn. :D

[AWS]

I like vbulletin, but, I just don't think it can handle the stress it will put under if ESPN uses it.
I don't think it will be all vbulletins fault however. Mysql wouldn't be able to handle it. Unless a port to Oracle or another more scalable db is the works.
I'd like to see them switch to a linear display forum. The threaded version they run makes it hard to follow the discussions. Yet that brings up another problem vbulletin might have if it ran there. Many threads have 1000 of more replies. Even with paganation this would put a strain on mysql.

[Dean C]

Which reminds me - what happened to the possible implementation of using another database system via vB's class?

[dethfire]

Maybe they are trying to set some kind of enterprise solution that appeals to large businesses. (since some people are stuck in this fog where more expensive = higher quality)

Still, this is the most ridiculously priced software I've seen on the web. From what it looks, it's nothing compared to vB3 or vB2.

Your absolutely right, and they will make hundreds of thousands based on that. On the internet anyone can sell an inferior product. Top level execs know nothing about the internet and will snatch Jive up because they talk like they are kings of the world, look professional and say they cater to enterprise enviroments.

[dethfire]

I like vbulletin, but, I just don't think it can handle the stress it will put under if ESPN uses it.
I don't think it will be all vbulletins fault however. Mysql wouldn't be able to handle it. Unless a port to Oracle or another more scalable db is the works.
I'd like to see them switch to a linear display forum. The threaded version they run makes it hard to follow the discussions. Yet that brings up another problem vbulletin might have if it ran there. Many threads have 1000 of more replies. Even with paganation this would put a strain on mysql.

I would agree too, it would have to be modified alot. ESPN alone gets hundreds of posts a minute.