The Ethics of Updating for VB3 a VB2 Hack That You Didn't Write

[amykhar]

A lot of popular hacks written for VB2 have not yet been ported over to VB3. If you are thinking about updating and releasing them, please consider the following:

1. Thou shalt not use anybody's code without their explicit permission.

2. It is good manners to let the original author of a hack have time to update their work before you pounce on it and claim authorship.

Now, if you know a better or different way to write an existing hack, the above statements don't apply. Just make sure that your work is original and that you get the original author's permission before you use their code.

Swiping code from others without credit is tacky and won't gain you a reputation as a master coder.

[filburt1]

Note that we've already deleted a newly released hack due to this already strongly implied policy. Not only is it illegal, it's immoral to just copy a hack, port it, and then post it effectively as your own.

(hint: this includes translations)

[MGM]

I agree, hacks are just like software, you can not change a few things and call it your own, or you can get sued. While you're not likely to get sued over a hack, it still isn't right, ethical, or fair to the other author.

I have yet to create my own hacks, but when I do, I will be sure not to steal code, and make sure to get explicit permission before using code from another author.

hey, my thoughts count too :p

MGM out

[MindTrix]

Thanks for the announcement, i think it is needed.

I'm not even going to think of converting someone elses hack to vB3. Just isnt right i tell ya!!!

[Zachery]

i did one users hack >.< only becuase i highly doubt they were going to port it, and all efforts to contact them failed :( and i of course gave them full credit :)

[KuraFire]

i did one users hack >.< only becuase i highly doubt they were going to port it, and all efforts to contact them failed :( and i of course gave them full credit :)
Same here.

[amykhar]

Personally, I think if the original author can't be contacted for permission, then his code shouldn't be used - even if you give credit. If you desperately need the functionality of the old hack, then I feel you should write it again from scratch.

RC1 just came out a few days ago. There is no way that anybody has had time to say an original author can't be found or isn't going to release their work yet. People go on vacations for longer than a week or two. People change email addresses and don't update their profiles. Just cause you can't contact William Shakespeare, it doesn't give you the right to take his works, change the dates and maybe a name or two and re-release his plays ;)

But, that's just my personal thoughts on that matter.

[Zachery]

well i dont think i could prossibly rewite this one from scratch, its as basic ias it gets >.<

[TECK]

Personally, I think if the original author can't be contacted for permission, then his code shouldn't be used - even if you give credit. If you desperately need the functionality of the old hack, then I feel you should write it again from scratch.
I agree totally. Good to see you as team member, congrats Amy. :)

[KuraFire]

Just cause you can't contact William Shakespeare, it doesn't give you the right to take his works, change the dates and maybe a name or two and re-release his plays ;)
It does if you're not trying to act like you made / wrote it. :)

[Wayne Luke]

It does if you're not trying to act like you made / wrote it. :)
It really doesn't matter how you act. It is illegal in most countries in this world. Not being able to contact the author is not an excuse.

[Thanatos]

From an opposing view, and I realize I don't have a post count, the ability to code/post hacks or anything else to garner respect, but...

People use others original work in a variety of situations in the real world, updating it and give proper credit to the original creator of the works. There don't seem to be any ethics issues there. I fail to see how this is any different.

As long as no profit is being made off of it, the original creator has no intention to update the code or is unable to be contacted and proper credit is being given in the update, how and why would it be considered unethical?

And saying, write your own code from scratch is not an acceptable answer. Not everyone is capable of coding. In my opinion, that is a very narrow minded and elitest attitude.

I'm not trying to be a troll...but undestand there are features out there that people need and not everyone is blessed with the ability to program and so are at the mercy of those who can. These people deserve consideration as much as the ones who can take that old program and update it for their boards.

If the original author comes back from the nether and gets offended, take down the updated code and let the updater and original author work out terms.

Anyway, thats my opinion.

[MindTrix]

Well i dont exactly have a post count etc like you say, I dont think i have ANY respect on this site but that doesnt bother me, i try to do what i can where i can.

As for the coding aspect i see your point, i too cannot create a hack from scratch because simply i have no idea where to start ;)

But i guess i need to keep learning.

[KuraFire]

It really doesn't matter how you act. It is illegal in most countries in this world. Not being able to contact the author is not an excuse.
Right, so all the publications of Shakespeare's works are illegal? :p


Back on topic, in some cases it's just completely pointless to say "you should rewrite this hack from scratch" - look at the hack I ported to vB3, Miserable Users. I simplified it, made it up to date with vB's changes in version 3, made it a little bit more efficient, and added a bunch of explanations/how-to's on toning down the miserabe-aspect. Rewriting that hack would be pointless as there aren't a whole lot of ways to do a very, very basic IF condition...
With something like a Journal System, ie. something BIG, I can imagine that you'd say "write your own from scratch!" (unless, of course, you have prior permission from the original author to port his/her hack) and I would agree to that, but it definitely doesn't always apply.

[Wayne Luke]

Right, so all the publications of Shakespeare's works are illegal? :p

Actually, no... Copyright expires. Currently this is about 70 years after creation in most places, some make it a specified time after the author's death. Common rule of thumb though is that if it was published before 1920, then copyright has expired.

Copyright is also immediate and automatic. When you republish another hack maker's work you are breaking their copyright since it hasn't been published for 70 years yet.

Go ahead and laugh... Break the law if you want. I will be willing to testify if anyone wants to pursue damages which includes fines up to $25,000 dollars and ten years in prison in the United States. Plus copyright violation is a felony covered by extradition in over 100 countries.

[Zachery]

* Faranth runs to mexico
:D

[Logician]

From legal point of view I can confirm Wayne's explanations are 100% true.

It does not matter whether you pretend it is your code or not. It does not matter whether you mentioned it belongs to someone else. It does not matter whether it was a paid or free script. It is a violation of copyright unless:
a) You get permission of the author.
b) Author explicitly allowed the action beforehand (eg. in his code he mentioned it can be imported, ported, distributed etc.)
c) It is not copyrighted in the first place as author explicitly rendered it this way.
d) Its copyright expired according to relevant law. (applies after long years)

[GuruXL]

From an opposing view, and I realize I don't have a post count, the ability to code/post hacks or anything else to garner respect, but...

People use others original work in a variety of situations in the real world, updating it and give proper credit to the original creator of the works. There don't seem to be any ethics issues there. I fail to see how this is any different.

As long as no profit is being made off of it, the original creator has no intention to update the code or is unable to be contacted and proper credit is being given in the update, how and why would it be considered unethical?

And saying, write your own code from scratch is not an acceptable answer. Not everyone is capable of coding. In my opinion, that is a very narrow minded and elitest attitude.

I'm not trying to be a troll...but undestand there are features out there that people need and not everyone is blessed with the ability to program and so are at the mercy of those who can. These people deserve consideration as much as the ones who can take that old program and update it for their boards.

If the original author comes back from the nether and gets offended, take down the updated code and let the updater and original author work out terms.

Anyway, thats my opinion.

I feel I have to agree with Miratos, not everyone is able to learn how to become a programmer, be it because of a learning disability or just a general lack of grasping the principles and methods behind coding.

However, I can see what you mean regarding copyright. Again I agree with Miratos because, I believe copyright law needs to be re-written, for starters its too strict, the slightest similarity to something else is considered copyright infringement and plagerism. Plagerism is seriously strict it requires you to come up with something original and that is becoming more and more difficult as plagerism cases increase. The ability to come up with something original is hard because we have so many works that have already been published or written. Plagerism is defined as:

take without referencing from someone else's writing or speech; of intellectual property

this is tricky still because of all the versions of plagerism.

All of the following are considered plagiarism:

- turning in someone else's work as your own
- Changing the words of an original source is not sufficient to prevent plagiarism. If you have retained the essential idea of an original source, and have not cited it, then no matter how drastically you may have altered its context or presentation, you have still plagiarized.
- copying words or ideas from someone else without giving credit
- failing to put a quotation in quotation marks
- giving incorrect information about the source of a quotation
- changing words but copying the sentence structure of a source without giving credit
- copying so many words or ideas from a source that it makes up the majority of your work, whether you give credit or not (see our section on "fair use" rules)

Kinda of seriously limits a person who is trying to come up with something "original", Regardless of copyright law.

[amykhar]

I take strong exception to what Miratos said. Somebody who cannot code has no business releasing a hack in the first place - especially not somebody else's work. If you don't have the talent or ability to do something, you certainly don't have the right to represent yourself as somebody who can based on the efforts of others.

[Erwin]

Feel free to download a hack and modify for your own forums. But don't re-release it and call it your own. :)

[speedway]

While I see some of the arguments here hold water, not all do. Updating code and releasing it as your own is wrong, definately.

Rewriting and using some of the same coding techniques is unavoidable, there are only so many ways to skin a cat. There is no way that anyone can lay claim to an if-else statement, a SQL statement or much else in the coding department. Complete packages - yes, look-and-feel - yes, the way it is coded - no. We all tend to copy someone else in one form or another throughout our lives - that is called learning by example. Can all the hack producers here honestly say that they did not get some assitance by readin books, looking at others code etc etc. I think not. So lets not be too quick to jump on the copyright bandwagon, especially where software is involved.

Bottom line is - do not claim someone elses work as yours outright if you are re-releasing or updating.

[KuraFire]

While I see some of the arguments here hold water, not all do. Updating code and releasing it as your own is wrong, definately.

Rewriting and using some of the same coding techniques is unavoidable, there are only so many ways to skin a cat. There is no way that anyone can lay claim to an if-else statement, a SQL statement or much else in the coding department. Complete packages - yes, look-and-feel - yes, the way it is coded - no. We all tend to copy someone else in one form or another throughout our lives - that is called learning by example. Can all the hack producers here honestly say that they did not get some assitance by readin books, looking at others code etc etc. I think not. So lets not be too quick to jump on the copyright bandwagon, especially where software is involved.

Bottom line is - do not claim someone elses work as yours outright if you are re-releasing or updating. Well said.

To add to that: this is all open-source programming. PHP is a language where you should reuse and share and reuse and share, ad infinitum. You learn PHP best by mimicking other people's code. At first this will be writing the exact same things, and only later on, once you're experienced enough, writing the same thing in your own way.
I agree that in the first stage, one should not release a hack (be it port or unique, even). But in the later stages, a port is sometimes an inevitability, even if you did write it all by yourself. Like speedway said, and like I sortof already mentioned, there are only so many ways to skin a cat. Some things just can't be done original anymore, cos somewhere, somehow, they've already been done. No matter what.

And while Wayne is right about the copyright, there's no way he would want the entire vB-community to wait 70 years for this vB3 port :p
70 years is a complete impossibility on the Internet, as is solid copyright protection. Perhaps if you (and the original author) both live in the USA it's somewhat possible to make a case, but it becomes infinitely more difficult when one or more person lives outside the USA.

[Silverdawn222]

I take strong exception to what Miratos said. Somebody who cannot code has no business releasing a hack in the first place - especially not somebody else's work. If you don't have the talent or ability to do something, you certainly don't have the right to represent yourself as somebody who can based on the efforts of others.

Representation aside (for I agree that credit has to be given where credit is due), sometimes a certain hack should be neccesarily ported, especially if no one else is going to. And why shouldn't you share your porting troubles with the rest of the community? I agree with Miratos, it's elitist to a degree. We're not just dealing with the result, we're dealing with source code. PHP is a scripting language, and as someone already remarked, there are only so many ways to skin a cat. I agree that it's downright wrong if you don't give credit, but I find your viewpoint too extreme in that you're already imposing limits upon people who may be working quite hard with their limited knowledge to get their favourite hacks upgraded. It's a slap in the face to honest people trying to move with their updated product.

[filburt1]

People, despite the fact that you can reply to threads in here, this is not open for debate. You may not, under any circumstances, port or copy a hack unless you have the author's explicit permission.

[Silverdawn222]

Judging from all the reactions, it's certainly worth a debate.

[Wayne Luke]

Well said.

To add to that: this is all open-source programming. PHP is a language where you should reuse and share and reuse and share, ad infinitum. You learn PHP best by mimicking other people's code. At first this will be writing the exact same things, and only later on, once you're experienced enough, writing the same thing in your own way. Open Source is a specific way of releasing software. Just because you can see the source code doesn't make it open source or exempt it from laws. It is visual source. If the person specifically says they are releasing their code as Open Source and it doesn't include anything of vBulletin's original code it would be open source. If it included 1 line of vBulletin's original code or modified vBulletin's original code, it would be breaking the vBulletin license and be illegal distribution. vBulletin itself it not Open Source in any sense of the definition as it is applied to software.

You could disagree with this as much as you want but this is the law. Don't like it, write to your government representatives and have it changed. This utter disrespect shown by people for other's work is the exact reason I stopped releasing hacks here 2 years ago. I do have some nice ideas for new addons but they probably won't be released here either because of this thread and the continued disrespect shown for people and their work.

[KuraFire]

People, despite the fact that you can reply to threads in here, this is not open for debate. You may not, under any circumstances, port or copy a hack unless you have the author's explicit permission.
so vb.org is going to be even more of a dictatorship that doesn't listen much for real to its members than it already is?

whatever, not my problem...

[Silverdawn222]

but they probably won't be released here either because of this thread and the continued disrespect shown for people and their work.

That was way out of line, and terribly inaccurate. No one here is disrespectful, and they have valuable points to make.

[Thanatos]

I take strong exception to what Miratos said. Somebody who cannot code has no business releasing a hack in the first place - especially not somebody else's work. If you don't have the talent or ability to do something, you certainly don't have the right to represent yourself as somebody who can based on the efforts of others.

Well, you can take exception to it, but that is not what I said. Perhaps I did not make my 2 seperate points clear to you.

I agree with you that someone who can not code should not be releasing a hack.

I would never advocate someone who can't code taking someone elses work and releasing it as their own.

[KuraFire]

Open Source is a specific way of releasing software. Just because you can see the source code doesn't make it open source or exempt it from laws. It is visual source. If the person specifically says they are releasing their code as Open Source and it doesn't include anything of vBulletin's original code it would be open source. If it included 1 line of vBulletin's original code or modified vBulletin's original code, it would be breaking the vBulletin license and be illegal distribution. vBulletin itself it not Open Source in any sense of the definition as it is applied to software.

You could disagree with this as much as you want but this is the law. Don't like it, write to your government representatives and have it changed. This utter disrespect shown by people for other's work is the exact reason I stopped releasing hacks here 2 years ago. I do have some nice ideas for new addons but they probably won't be released here either because of this thread and the continued disrespect shown for people and their work.
I resent the implications that I don't show respect to people and their work. If those implications were not intentional, then forget I said anything :)

However, what you're basically saying is that all of the Hacks at vb.org are illegal. So by that definition I fail to see the whole point of this discussion, as then we're all commiting crimes here just by making hacks in the first place.

I generally prefer the Common Sense approach rather than the "It is the law"-approach. Many laws are completely retarded (across all countries) and at times they are really better broken than followed. Not saying that that applies exactly to copyright laws, mind you, but if the situation is in fact so that all hackmakers are criminals by law due to the fact that we've modified vB code and released the work as our own, then it definitely applies. :)

[Wayne Luke]

No, I said distributing hacks as Open Source was against the vBulletin License if they contained any code from vBulletin in them. The reason for that is because you are trying to retroactively change a license that you have no rights to change.

[Silverdawn222]

Aye, not only are implications made, but according to that reasoning most of the hacks here at VBulletin.org are illegal...

[KuraFire]

No, I said distributing hacks as Open Source was against the vBulletin License if they contained any code from vBulletin in them. The reason for that is because you are trying to retroactively change a license that you have no rights to change.
Hard to say, then. VERY few people ever make a hack and specify that it's not an open source hack. And while I know that a general hack isn't necessarily open source here, it essentially becomes so if it's released outside of vB.org (which is the case for quite some hacks - and I don't mean without author's approval).

[Logician]

so vb.org is going to be even more of a dictatorship that doesn't listen much for real to its members than it already is?

whatever, not my problem...
This has nothing to do with members' opinions or even vb.org administration. This is about law.

As filburt stated, feel free to discuss, share your opinions on the issue, get legal advice from people who know the law, but this rule is not something that will change according to member requests or even request of anybody. You may not like it, you may think it should be set in a different way but we are not the address to complain as we are not the people who set the copyright law.

It is a legal rule beyond all of us and I'm sure everybody in this community will respect what law rules.

[Erwin]

Dictatorship? Let's not be melodramatic... :) I am the last person to become dictator LOL!

[KuraFire]

This has nothing to do with members' opinions or even vb.org administration. This is about law.

As filburt stated, feel free to discuss, share your opinions on the issue, get legal advice from people who know the law, but this rule is not something that will change according to member requests or even request of anybody. You may not like it, you may think it should be set in a different way but we are not the address to complain as we are not the people who set the copyright law.

It is a legal rule beyond all of us and I'm sure everybody in this community will respect what law rules.

I'm not really complaining, I'm just trying to say: don't enforce "the law" so strict that it becomes ridiculous here.

[g-force2k2]

Well how I feel about the whole situation is too just learn some php and create your own version, that way its your code, maybe not completely original, but put in some features that you feel would make it interesting.

I agree very strongly what Amykhar had stated.

When I first began hacking at vb.org I knew nothing, but I studied and got help and inspiration from people like Xenon, Logician, Firefly and Erwin. With help from others and taking some time to learn you can create your own work and then release your own without having worry about others saying its theirs or that it was copied.

Just some of my thoughts.

Regards,
g-force2k2

[Mr. HillBilly]

So we cant release hacks with out authors permissions, BS. If we cant contact them then the person would never be able to release the hack.


Thats just plain right stupid.

[Silverdawn222]

Agreed.

[g-force2k2]

So we cant release hacks with out authors permissions, BS. If we cant contact them then the person would never be able to release the hack.


Thats just plain right stupid.

It's not bull++++, if you want to have a certain hack so badly then just learn some php and create it yourself using your own codes and techniques. Releasing work without the author's consent is laziness and disrespectful if you ask me. I'd like to think you'd feel the same way if you're a respected hacker who created a good amount of hacks around vb.org, only to have people, which some of them don't know exactly what to do, modifying your scripts and calling it their own. If you ask me thats bull++++.

Regards,
g-force2k2

[Thanatos]

...SNIP...if you want to have a certain hack so badly then just learn some php and create it yourself using your own codes and techniques...SNIP...g-force2k2

Not everyone is capable of being a coder. Some people do not have the time, some people do not have the talent. Further, some people are capable of teaching themselves, others require classrooms to actually learn anything.

That is, theoretically, why this place exists. Its ashame the elitist attitudes make it such a hostile place though.

[ULTIMATESSJ]

Not everyone is capable of being a coder. Some people do not have the time, some people do not have the talent. Further, some people are capable of teaching themselves, others require classrooms to actually learn anything.

That is, theoretically, why this place exists. Its ashame the elitist attitudes make it such a hostile place though.

One of the best comments i've seen in this thread.

I don't think theres much argument to the law. We all have to abide by it, and it's something we are incapiable of debating against, but perhaps instead of rethinking the law, perhaps people should rethink their stance on the other hackers here who are trying their best to learn PHP.

[MindTrix]

I agree. I know little PHP but i am learning more everday, however sometimes the attitude of more advanced coders is disgusting, and im not on about this thread, i mean some posts i have seen in general. Some people might seem like they are beeing complete idiots too you when they say things like "What is a php file" and things, but sometimes they honestly do not know, and then if you laugh at them for it, it makes them feel worse.

Then again, some advanced hackers on here are amazing in their support and general attitude and it is a god send.


Bottom line is not everyone understands PHP just like that, im reading the same book over and over again and i still only know enough to get by.

As for this posts topic. I agree no one should convert a hack without permission its simple as that.As said it is Law so i do not see why people are still debating on it! Just give in lol

[Nikidala]

This community is here for hacking vBulletin, and I would probably agree that the vast majority of the users of the forum probably do not know how to program. Nothing wrong with that... That is why it is such a blessing for the people that do know how to share their hard work, efforts, and ideas with everyone here...

And, I am also pretty sure that a fair amount of the users here, being in a "hacking" forum would like to learn a bit more about programming so that they can modify their own board to suit their needs and give back to the community that has given to them. Again nothing wrong with that...

You are also correct that a lot of people learn how to hack their boards and / or program from taking examples (in this case, hacks) and trying to modify them to suit their needs and / or add a bit more functionality that the person that was lacking. I cannot speak for all hackers here, but I can imagine that a fair amount of them would have no problems with you doing this for your OWN forum. I think that the major concern / problem is when the person makes modifications to the hack, then wants to "publish" the modified hack... One of the problems there being (besides obvious copyright issues) that the "new" hacker would be getting recognition from the WHOLE hack when the "new" hacker had only modified someone elses work.

Without the "original" hacker, the "new" hacker would not have had a hack to modify and get recognition off of in the first place. Without the "original" hacker, the "new" hacker would not have had an "example" to use to help him better his hacking skills. And on, and on... Pretty much it boils down to:

Without the "original" hacker, the "new" hacker would have nothing (so to speak)...

New people on the forum would not know that the "original" hacker spent 6 months writing the original hack (even with the "thanks" in the "new" hacker's release) and the "new" hacker only spent say 2 weeks and added 6 lines of code. Instead, new members that have not been around for a while, may just see the popularity of the "new" hackers hack and assume that the "new" hack did most of the work on the hack... Would that be fair to the "original" hack, who not only came up with the idea, researched how to best implement it, and spent the time coding the majority of the "new" hackers hack?

Now, some people can say that another hacker could come in and add even more work than the "original" hacker did to the hack AND added much needed functionality to said "original" hack... If this is the case, I could see how said "new" hacker would get upset that not only their time and efforts would go unnoticed, but the rest of the community would be "stuck" with a "lesser" hack (in their minds)... But, what if the "original" hacker had also been spending the past few months "upgrading" his hack (keeping it under raps in hopes of a big surprise for the community), and all of the "original" hackers work would go to waste since the "new" hacker released his prior to the "original" hacker finishing?

And there is the major dilema... :(


I don't know how this idea would fly, but maybe their could be a separate sub-forum for hacks of hacks? It would follow how the hacks of vb work, no original code released, just the new modifications to the scripts, what to look for, where to insert, etc... When a hacker releases a vb hack, they could have a choice (like the support choice) to allow other hackers to release hacks FOR the original hack. This way possibly both parties win... The new users would still have to install the original hack to install the new hack. The original hack still gets credit for each and every line of code they wrote, and the new hacker would get credit for each and every line of code they wrote... And it seems like this option would be as legal as the current method of hacking vBulletin, as none of the original code is republished, only new code...

Like I said, I don't know how that would fly with you guys, but can't say I didn't atleast suggest it... Seeing as I don't have any hacks, my two cents really aren't worth two cents, so... ;)

[MindTrix]

Every comment is worth something mate ;)
But as stated here this aparantly is not up for discussion which we have to agree with and abide by. Hacks MUST NOT be converted without permission from the original author.

[Dark_Wizard]

I agree...great thread and thx Amykhar for bringing this up.

[TWTCommish]

And saying, write your own code from scratch is not an acceptable answer. Not everyone is capable of coding. In my opinion, that is a very narrow minded and elitest attitude.It's no more elitist than saying that those who cannot drive properly should not be given licenses.

I'm not trying to be a troll...but undestand there are features out there that people need and not everyone is blessed with the ability to program and so are at the mercy of those who can. These people deserve consideration as much as the ones who can take that old program and update it for their boards.They're being given a great deal of consideration, as is exemplified in the legions of hacks available here, most of which are done out of charity and good will. To say that those who cannot be bothered to learn these skills are somehow entitled to some sort of ownership over the code of those who can is unfathomable to me.

[g-force2k2]

Not everyone is capable of being a coder. Some people do not have the time, some people do not have the talent. Further, some people are capable of teaching themselves, others require classrooms to actually learn anything.

That is, theoretically, why this place exists. Its ashame the elitist attitudes make it such a hostile place though.

Elitist? Would you rather I not share my work with vb.org? I make work for others to use, I currently have no forum of residence so I don't make these modifications for myself. And to your comment I'm referring to the ethnics of taking code thats not yours and making it yours. I didn't say everyone should learn, but just that those that think they can just take others work and make it there own, they are in the wrong, and they should learn instead of steal.

Miratos if someone took your work OR claimed something of yours as their own you would not be the least upset? I think you should re-evaluation the circumstances before thinking that I am such an elitist.

I would sincerely have to agree with TWTCommish's comments.

Regards,
g-force2k2

[Link14716]

It's no more elitist than saying that those who cannot drive properly should not be given licenses.

They're being given a great deal of consideration, as is exemplified in the legions of hacks available here, most of which are done out of charity and good will. To say that those who cannot be bothered to learn these skills are somehow entitled to some sort of ownership over the code of those who can is unfathomable to me.
*Agreed*

[Logician]

Not everyone is capable of being a coder. Some people do not have the time, some people do not have the talent. Further, some people are capable of teaching themselves, others require classrooms to actually learn anything.

That is, theoretically, why this place exists. Its ashame the elitist attitudes make it such a hostile place though.
All hacks released here is open source which means you can check the source code, play with it and make many experiments which will help you learn PHP. You can do all these in your test board or real board and I agree that this will help you learn PHP or VB structure a lot. This is for sure allowed 100%.

But taking someoneelse work, modifying a few variable names, then releasing it with your name is something different and has nothing to do with learning PHP and can not be excused with being a newbie. This is against law and even if it was complying with law, I'd say it is very disrespectful. I believe it is so, even if you spend hours, make enhancements in the code and produce a better hack at the end. Some of the expert hackers here might think, they can make some enhancements in the vbulletin source code, but should we first make them, then release the "vbulletin" as "vbulletin+" with our names on it EVEN IF the outcome is really better? IMO this is stealing. If you think you can produce a better bb software, you can sit down on your computer and start coding it from the ground with your algorithms and functions.

When we say that we won't allow this in vb.org, you might be disappointed as some of the VB2 hacks will never be imported to VB3. This is true. But you are missing the point that if we start allowing such a practise in the long run we'll lose all expert and competent hackers that are very valuable to this community as they are producing the "real" works. And if we didnt have them here in the first place, we wouldnt have this discussion as well because there would be no large hacks that anybody would import anyway. So for the sake of having these large hacks here in vb.org in the future too, you can gladly sacrifice a few VB2 hacks that will never get imported. Besides I believe that you wouldnt need to worry even for this because I'm sure if that hack is popular someone else will take time to code it from the ground anyway so you'll get your hack at the end.

[zajako]

A lot of popular hacks written for VB2 have not yet been ported over to VB3. If you are thinking about updating and releasing them, please consider the following:

1. Thou shalt not use anybody's code without their explicit permission.

2. It is good manners to let the original author of a hack have time to update their work before you pounce on it and claim authorship.

Now, if you know a better or different way to write an existing hack, the above statements don't apply. Just make sure that your work is original and that you get the original author's permission before you use their code.

Swiping code from others without credit is tacky and won't gain you a reputation as a master coder.
amen !

cause i want to port all my hacks ;)

[Silverdawn222]

I pay money for Vbulletin not only for their support, but the awesome hack backbone you have here at VBulletin.org. Isn't it shameful that I knock on your door and someone says "write it yourself"? No one should ever demand that, especially not in this discussion. I can understand why people get upset at it: the code is existing in VB2 form already.

Example, the original author is John, the port author is James. Shouldn't you say, "New VB3 Hack by John, ported by James"?

[MindTrix]

Example, the original author is John, the port author is James. Shouldn't you say, "New VB3 Hack by John, ported by James"?
Maybe yes, but only if that person has been given permission to port the hack over by the original author :) As stated in this thread it is NOT allowed, for anyone to port a hack without permission :) No-matter how much credit you give, you HAVE to have permission

[KuraFire]

All hacks released here is open source which means you can check the source code, play with it and make many experiments which will help you learn PHP. You can do all these in your test board or real board and I agree that this will help you learn PHP or VB structure a lot. This is for sure allowed 100%.
according to Wayne they're not Open Source at all (in which case everyone on vb.org would now be a criminal for purposefully breaking the vB license). instead, they're Viewable Source, which has the difference with Open Source in that there are re-release restrictions (which are different with Open Source).
:)

[MindTrix]

Lol got a point there ;)

One thing im wondering and hope someone can clear up. How can you tell the difference between someone Coding a hack from scratch, and someone converting an existing one over? Surely the chances of the same code beeing used are pretty high.

[g-force2k2]

I pay money for Vbulletin not only for their support, but the awesome hack backbone you have here at VBulletin.org. Isn't it shameful that I knock on your door and someone says "write it yourself"? No one should ever demand that, especially not in this discussion. I can understand why people get upset at it: the code is existing in VB2 form already.

Can you seriously understand? I don't think you can because if you don't write the hacks you don't know how much time hackers such as myself and other hardcore hackers spend creating hacks. For instance my first vb3 hack probably took me along 10 hours to complete although it is simple I made it as efficient and easy to install as possible.

And we aren't telling you as the person who installs hacks to "write it yourself". I think that you are confused, because we are telling this to members who think they can steal others work and use it as their own. We as hackers spend our free time to do you a favor, and since you take the luxury of using our work you should think about the time we put into our work and have the patience for the oringal author to update or port there work, and if not then perhaps another talented hacker is willing to make their own version, and if thats not the case then well I'm sorry, but you should try to spend countless hours on hacking for free only to have your work copied, stolen, etc.

Regards,
g-force2k2

[MindTrix]

I know just thinking about how to do the hack is taking me DAYS!!

[Link14716]

My shoutbox hack Beta 1 took me two days, and adding all these new features (a lot of them) and fixing a lot of bugs has taken me months. I'd be majorly pissed if someone ports it to vB4 before I have a chance to. (Wow, I'm thinking ahead...)

[MindTrix]

very lol, vB3 isnt even Gold yet :>

[Thanatos]

Actually, if you want to throw around copyright law, if you take someone's hack and modify it for use on your board, you are breaking their copyright.

But, as the they have made their stance clear, I agree it is useless to debate it. Their boards and they will run them however they like and thats fine.

TwtCommmish - I guess we will just have to disagree, but I think this thread very well shows the attitude very well between those who can code and those who can't. I would debate most hacks are released out of charity and good will. I never said those who can not code should be entitled to any kind of ownership over the code, I am not sure whree you came up with that. Please show me where I posted that.

g-force2k2 - I never said someone should take code and make it theirs. Please show where I posted that you should take someone elses code and claim it as your own. You didn't say everyone should learn to code? perhaps you should go back and read the excerpt of the quote I pulled from your own post.

Logician - I reiterate, not everyone can learn to code, despite your insistance that everyone can since all released code is open source. There can be a number of reasons one is unable to learn, they have been stated, even if you wish to ignore them. I am glad you have decided it is your place to decide what sacrifices I should make.

It seems pretty obvious the entirety of my posts weren't read or understood by a number of you, I don't think you read your own posts, you contridict yourselves further down even. It is interesting though that the ones whose typical stance it seems to be to say 'code your own stuff' are the ones who are so hostile and accusing (stealing/thief, etc) just because people do not agree with them. Very interesting. Like I stated, this thread shows the disparity between coders and non-coders very well and the attitudes that are seperating them.

I think I am through now though, its a circular arguement with no middle ground. The Orgs rules will be followed and enforced however they see fit, consistant or not and the disparity between people will remain as it has been in the past.

So for those that responded to my posts with:

support: thank you.
understanding: thank you.
hostility and misunderstanding: ...

[Silverdawn222]

And we aren't telling you as the person who installs hacks to "write it yourself". I think that you are confused, because we are telling this to members who think they can steal others work and use it as their own.

Sorry?

if you want to have a certain hack so badly then just learn some php and create it yourself using your own codes and techniques...

Those are both your quotes. Perhaps the understanding lies in your clarity, not my perception. However, the post is worded well, and I can understand reasoning, but some of the posts in this threads are way overboard when it comes to their attitude to us (PHP-newbies), and it shows because the opinions of non-coders and coders differ greatly on this thread.

By the way, I work ten hours a day programming (just not PHP), and I appreciate your dedication and generosity, but ten hours for a hack is really not that much. I understand the effort and investment it takes, people, but as Miratos said, some stuff being said here is worded pretty badly by hackers trying to make a point.

[Link14716]

And do you get paid for those ten hours of programming?

[g-force2k2]

Those are both your quotes. Perhaps the understanding lies in your clarity, not my perception. However, the post is worded well, and I can understand reasoning, but some of the posts in this threads are way overboard when it comes to their attitude to us (PHP-newbies), and it shows because the opinions of non-coders and coders differ greatly on this thread.

By the way, I work ten hours a day programming (just not PHP), and I appreciate your dedication and generosity, but ten hours for a hack is really not that much. I understand the effort and investment it takes, people, but as Miratos said, some stuff being said here is worded pretty badly by hackers trying to make a point.

Actually I think that people are misundestanding the topic of this thread, the topic is ethics of updating hacks for vb3 not hacking in general, so anything i have been stating is in regards to the topic not to hacking in general.

As for programming what do you make $20 an hour? If so thats $200 that I've sacrificed in order to share my work. Not really that much? How about you donate that to the hackers that sacrifice their time.

g-force2k2 - I never said someone should take code and make it theirs. Please show where I posted that you should take someone elses code and claim it as your own. You didn't say everyone should learn to code? perhaps you should go back and read the excerpt of the quote I pulled from your own post.

support: thank you.
understanding: thank you.
hostility and misunderstanding: ...

Just like I stated above this is aimed at the topic.

Hostility and misunderstanding? You have your mind so locked on your own views that you're disregarded the opinions of those that do hack. So I should thank you on behalf of the hackers for your hospitality in making vb.org a greater place. You think you can understand this community by just walking in and telling those of us that have been here and spent endless hours at vb.org that our opinions and views are wrong?

I think it is you that is mis-understanding, we create hacks for members to use, not tell them to make their own else why would we make any? or why would this community exist? This thread is clearly aimed at people using other hackers code and making it their own, they are the ones that I say write your own work. If you want to start a thread bashing hackers and their work because they don't do enough then you're at the wrong place, because it really seems as though you're trying to be hostile with those of us that do hack. So before you accuse me of telling everyone to write their own hacks, next time read the topic first.

Regards,
g-force2k2

[filburt1]

I'm going to sum up this thread plain and simple: not only is it a rule that has always been enforced at vB.org but just now stated, but IT IS ILLEGAL to do so in the first place.

Please, no more challenging of the rule or our authority to enforce it. I'm not above closing the thread.

[Silverdawn222]

And do you get paid for those ten hours of programming?

Yes, but how do you think I got the job? ;)

The point is though... yes, you're "not telling people to make their own hacks", but you're also "telling people not to modify existing hacks" (without the permission of the author). Look, I'm all for the regs here, it's illegal, and I wouldn't even think about it. But some of the "if you want them so bad, learn PHP" is way out of line, don't you see?

[TWTCommish]

I pay money for Vbulletin not only for their support, but the awesome hack backbone you have here at VBulletin.org.That's your decision; the hacking community here is not a guranteed part of the package, because the hackers are not paid for their work. You pay for the script; this site is a bonus.

Isn't it shameful that I knock on your door and someone says "write it yourself"? No one should ever demand that, especially not in this discussion. I can understand why people get upset at it: the code is existing in VB2 form already.How is that a "demand"? Seems to me the only "demand" is coming from the people who are acting as if they are somehow entitled to the code written by others. Telling people they have no such right to it is in no way a demand, nor is it shameful, unless they are unduly harsh about it.

[TWTCommish]

TwtCommmish - I guess we will just have to disagree, but I think this thread very well shows the attitude very well between those who can code and those who can't.I think it does, indeed. Though I don't think it shows the elitism and snobbery you're implying some coders have, but rather the entitlement and demanding nature of some users who do not know just how much effort can go into some of these modifications.

I would debate most hacks are released out of charity and good will.Go ahead and debate it; I see few other reasons for such a vast amount of work, given the extreme rarity of instances in which a hacker is actually given a job with Jelsoft.


I never said those who can not code should be entitled to any kind of ownership over the code, I am not sure whree you came up with that. Please show me where I posted that.It was implicit when you stated that those people "deserve consideration." Fact is, they don't "deserve" any of the code here. It is not part of the script they've bought, and the people who write it owe them nothing. The fact that you did not state in exact terms that they should be given some kind of ownership does not change the point I was making, which is that you're ascribing a level of entitlement that has no reason for existing.

Logician - I reiterate, not everyone can learn to code, despite your insistance that everyone can since all released code is open source. There can be a number of reasons one is unable to learn, they have been stated, even if you wish to ignore them. I am glad you have decided it is your place to decide what sacrifices I should make.While it's technically true that some people cannot learn how to write PHP code, realistically, it's simply a matter of choice. There's rarely any immobile roadblock between a forum owner and a knowledge of vBulletin's inner-workings. It's not easy, but it's generally just about taking the time to do so.

[0ptima]

I just started to recently visit vb.org on a more frequent basis, and have not taken a close look at the VB2 hacks. What would happen if I write a hack that already exists for VB2 without knowing about a similar VB2 hack?

[Link14716]

There's nothing wrong wirh writing your own hack. The problem is taking someone else's code, porting it and then posting it as your own.

[spence2]

I'm neither a hacker nor a programmer, just an average visitor to vB.org. I remain amazed by both the generosity and knowledge of the authors of the mods presented here and wish in no way for anyone to infringe upon their rights.

However, as an average "joe" visitor when I see a vB2 mod that I hope will be updated to work with vB3 I am left wondering if this will ever occur. Is the author working on it? Gone away, lost interest and could care less about updating their mod? Or are they feverishly working on an update?

Might there be a pragmatic way for vB.org to inquire of the authors their intentions? Might they be asked if they are willing to allow others to carrying on with updating (with credit given) if they have no interest in doing so themselves? Might there be a way for vB.org to help streamline the process for everyone involved?

I dunno...just asking.

[Erwin]

I'm neither a hacker nor a programmer, just an average visitor to vB.org. I remain amazed by both the generosity and knowledge of the authors of the mods presented here and wish in no way for anyone to infringe upon their rights.

However, as an average "joe" visitor when I see a vB2 mod that I hope will be updated to work with vB3 I am left wondering if this will ever occur. Is the author working on it? Gone away, lost interest and could care less about updating their mod? Or are they feverishly working on an update?

Might there be a pragmatic way to vB.org to inquire of the authors their intentions? Might they be asked if they are willing to allow others to carrying on with updating (with credit given) if they have no interest in doing so themselves? Might there be a way for vB.org to help streamline the process for everyone involved?

I dunno...just asking.
Feel free to PM or email the original authors.

Most authors, if they are too busy to do it, will allow others to update their hacks, as long as proper credit is given.

[spence2]

I will do so, Erwin. Thanks for your reply.

[Andreas]

Hmm ... what about Hacks that come with a GPL-Notice?
There shouldn't be any problem modifying/porting them, right?

[KuraFire]

Hmm ... what about Hacks that come with a GPL-Notice?
There shouldn't be any problem modifying/porting them, right?
That'll soon no longer be an issue either. A system is being prepared for all of that :)

[Andreas]

That'll soon no longer be an issue either. A system is being prepared for all of that :)
OK - fine.
But what's the answer to my question ;)
Is it allowed to allowed/ethical to release ported Hacks that originally came with a GPL-notice (which allows modifications)?

[Mephisteus]

Faranth semi copied mine, but gave him permission afterwards :p. Now I just want a link back to the vB2 version in his post ^_^

[Zachery]

Faranth semi copied mine, but gave him permission afterwards :p. Now I just want a link back to the vB2 version in his post ^_^
ah, actually i didnt know it was yours to be honest, and if you ask Xenon between me and him i got it coded :) i will give you credit for the original hack :) sorry i missed that

[Princeton]

ah, actually i didnt know it was yours to be honest, and if you ask Xenon between me and him i got it coded :) i will give you credit for the original hack :) sorry i missed that I can see this happening a lot.
An idea may have been presented in the past but does this mean it is rightfully theirs? Do we have to ask for permission to "use" an idea? NO!

[magnus]

There's an easy solution to this, you just need to understand how copyrights work. In a basic rundown, you can create modifications to an author's hack, however, you cannot release the actual modified hack.. but you can release just the modifications. This is what's called "a patch" in the software world.

Basically, create a patch (or directions) to modify the original source which you must distribute independantly of the original source and you are completely in your legal right in the eye of the law. Now, whether or not vB.org chooses to abide soley by the legal stance or instead by a local private stance is another thing.

However, from what it seems, vB.org is strictly adhereing to a legal perspective so you should be fine releasing a patch.

I hope this helps!

[magnus]

OK - fine.
But what's the answer to my question ;)
Is it allowed to allowed/ethical to release ported Hacks that originally came with a GPL-notice (which allows modifications)?

If an author releases source under the GNU General Public License, you are free to modify and/or distribute it provided that the source code is included and the distribution license remains the GPL.

[TheEDIGuy]

Feel free to download a hack and modify for your own forums. But don't re-release it and call it your own. :)
I personally spent most of today re-writing someone else's VB2 hack for use on my own VB3 forum. No simple task for me, since I'm still a wet newbie to writing hacks.

I documented the process along the way, updating the original author's installation instructions.

I then PM'ed the original author and offered to either release it with full credit to him as the original author, or do nothing and hope that he eventually releases a VB3 version himself.

My time was well-spent because I now have the hack in place. But in the spirit of sharing, it would be nice if I could provide the benefit of that work to others looking for similar functionality. But I understand and respect the original author's work, and defer to his wishes, assuming he ever responds...

I see both sides of the issue, I guess. But when exactly is enough code changed to make a "new" creation, instead of a reproduction of someone's copyrighted original creation? If you create a basketball, and I take the idea of "roundness" and make a soccer ball, have I infringed?

[ManagerJosh]

A lot of popular hacks written for VB2 have not yet been ported over to VB3. If you are thinking about updating and releasing them, please consider the following:

1. Thou shalt not use anybody's code without their explicit permission.

2. It is good manners to let the original author of a hack have time to update their work before you pounce on it and claim authorship.

Now, if you know a better or different way to write an existing hack, the above statements don't apply. Just make sure that your work is original and that you get the original author's permission before you use their code.

Swiping code from others without credit is tacky and won't gain you a reputation as a master coder.
another thought is that one gets written permission from the original author if they can port the hack over to vB3 or assist in anyway to help port it over :)