Erwin, here is the information you requested

[drives fast]

REGISTRATION PROCEDURES
Original Registration
To register a work, send the following three elements in the same envelope or package to:

Library of Congress
Copyright Office
101 Independence Avenue, S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20559-6000

A properly completed application form.
A nonrefundable filing fee of $30 for each application.
NOTE: Copyright Office fees are subject to change. For current fees, please check the Copyright Office Website at www.copyright.gov, write the Copyright Office, or call (202) 707-3000.

A nonreturnable deposit of the work being registered. The deposit requirements vary in particular situations. The general requirements follow. Also note the information under "Special Deposit Requirements."
If the work was first published in the United States on or after January 1, 1978, two complete copies or phonorecords of the best edition.

If the work was first published in the United States before January 1, 1978, two complete copies or phonorecords of the work as first published.

If the work was first published outside the United States, one complete copy or phonorecord of the work as first published.

If sending multiple works, all applications, deposits, and fees should be sent in the same package. If possible, applications should be attached to the appropriate deposit. Whenever possible, number each package (e. g., 1 of 3, 2 of 4) to facilitate processing.

I have the upmost respect for anyone and everyone that gives the same in return. A threat to teach me respect falls on deaf ears.

Erwin. I respectfully submit the information you asked for in this new thread since someone once again closed my thread after making a statement that requested or warranted a reply.

Now...since I have my facts straight....does anyone have something to say to me? I do not expect to hear what I should but I am just making sure that you are aware of the facts that I have been making that nobody but me botherd to get rather than quote things without the proper research.

At the risk of sounding like a smart-a** if anyone was getting a law degree....this would have been easy information to find and be aware of.

and filbert.....I am aware of your status here and am not trying to rake fingernails across the chalk board but you have treated me like shi* since day one and it is not warranted. I envite anyone to do a search of my posts so you can see the treatment I have received from you. I have asked questions and patiently waited for days while receiving useless replies like "why would you want to do that" or "search for it" like I haven't tried already, only to see later someone else ask the same thing and receive immediate help. Thank you for the lack of respect that you feel everyone but me deserves.

I have never done anything other than read everything in site and learn despite this treatment. Every now and then I express my opinions like in the other thread only to have the threads turn into something else. My original comments were my opinions of the contest and had no intentions of it turning into a ++++ing match over laws but it did and I will refrain from any further comment on the matter of copyright laws since my point has been driven home.

I will not stir this pot anymore because it is obvious that no matter what I say, it will be dismissed as B.S. whether it is factual or not.

so thank you for allowing me to prove my point and have a nice day.

[Erwin]

Okay, I'm studying law in Australia, so it is different - we don't have a copyright registration service. Thanks for giving me the link. Evidently, in the US you do have this system:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#cr

Note that it is still not necessary, and copyright automatically exists:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hsc

In any case, if I create a work, and you copy and register it, that doesn't offer you protection because if I can prove I created the work, then you will have to give up the copyright. The copyright belongs to the author - registration just makes if formalized in the US system.

Copyright registration does not legitimize copyright infringement. :)

[Erwin]

Also, please mods, leave this thread open. It's okay, we are just discussing law here, which is important for website owners like us.

[Steve Machol]

True, but there are distinct advantages to registering a copyright in the U.S.:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#cr

Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.
Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin.
If made before or within 5 years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.

[Erwin]

Btw, I apologize on behalf of staff if you felt that you were unjustly treated. That was not the intention. :) I just wanted to clarify any misconceptions anyone had regarding copyright theft. Copying someone's work is theft, as copyright is a property right. Registration, if it exists in the jurisdiction, is merely a formality - it does not justify or protect copyright violations.

[Erwin]

Today at 12:48 PM Steve Machol said this in Post #4 (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?postid=413209#post413209)
True, but there are distinct advantages to registering a copyright in the U.S.:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#cr

Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.
Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin.
If made before or within 5 years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.

Advantages are for the copyright holder - who is the author of the work. If you copied my work, you are not the author, so you don't have copyright and thus any copyright you register is false and invalid in the first place.

I do appreciate that I am no expert in US law - I am just stating general legal principles and property law principles here - it's the nemo dat principle - if it's not yours to begin with, you can't register it or deal with it as you choose. Maybe Sinan (Logician) or an US-based lawyer can correct me.

By no means am I saying I am definitely correct - like drives-fast said, legal principles are there to be argued - nothing is truly set in stone.

[drives fast]

Erwin,

You are correct in what you say about being the author. I was only trying to explain to everyone that was telling me I was wrong that even though a person is the actual author of something it can still be sucessfully "stolen".

An author will have all the necessary documentation (this covers originals, gernal logs, pictures, and witnesses) but a theif can create all of these things as well. If the theif creates all of these things also creating an earlier date of creation and registers the copyright first, he can sucessfully steal your work and you would be hard pressed to prove that you are the real owner and author.

If the theif is sucessful in doing all of this...the original author will have to try to sue the theif for infringment but has less than a 50% chance of sucess.

When you throw lawyers into the mix...lots of crazy stuff happens and things can turn out different depending on many factors.

This was the only point I was trying to make and was never intending the discussions to turn ugly.

while everyone that said that you have copyright just by creating something...they are mostly correct and in many cases, 100% correct but there are circumstances to every argument that have different outcomes.

I also apologize if I have offended anyone...I was offended myself being told I was wrong when I definately am not but as I stated in all three of these threads...I am speaking in the sense of a theif stealing someone's work....it happens all the time and is unfortunate. The biggest point I wanted to make when I was challenged on the copyright issue was...you must protect your work if it means your livelyhood and is highly important to you.....because if it is....it can be important to someone else to try to take it from you and leave you to spend thousands of dollard trying to prove it actually belongs to you. So don't feel secure that just because you created it....you can lose it too.

My confession
I am not a lawyer and I have never even earned a single credit for hours of law school....but....I have many dealings with the law and how these things work. I keep myself well read in many subject and aspects of laws due to being screwed over most of my life over one thing or another. I decided to start defending myself and the only way to do that is to educate myself. There is a world of information out there for the taking and there are also resources to help determine if the information you have gathered is accurate.
My friends tell me that I should have studied to be a lawyer since I like a good heated argument and they are right...I love it. I also am not too proud to back down when somebody proves me wrong....the good thing is that in law....there are so many gray areas...that is why there is court...to argue the gray areas and come to a decission one way or the other.

So please...i do not want to make enemies here so if I haven't given anyone their proper courtesy....I am sorry

[Erwin]

Apology accepted. :) I hardly get offended on forums, as I know that posts get misunderstood easily.

You were right about the registration of copyright, and I was wrong, so I learned something new about US copyright laws today. :) Thanks God that wasn't in my Intellectual Property exam! LOL!

Anyway, let's forget about this thing and move on. :) We have vB3 to worry about. ;)

[Steve Machol]

Today at 07:50 PM Erwin said this in Post #6 (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?postid=413211#post413211)
Advantages are for the copyright holder - who is the author of the work. If you copied my work, you are not the author, so you don't have copyright and thus any copyright you register is false and invalid in the first place. Of course the advantages are to the copyright holder. That's a given. However what about a case in which two people claim authorship and only one of them has registered the copyright? Does the one with the registered copyright have an advantage in any legal proceedings?

My layperson's take on this is that all other evidence being equal, the one with the registered copyright will prevail. However this can be overcome with strong evidence to the contary.

I also wonder about this statement:

"Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin."

Does this mean the author does not have legal standing to bring an infringement suit unless he/she has registered the copyright? And if so, does a belated registration after the fact have any standing?

Interesting questions for your Law Class. :)

[Erwin]

Actually, they are VERY interesting questions. In Autralia, common law and legislation automatically gives an author copyright over a work for life, and then 50 years after his or her death.

"Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin."

I interpret that to mean that in order to sue another person for copying your work, you need to register your design as your own copyright (regardless of if the other person had registered his version of your work). So you get 2 copyright registrations for similar designs - then you fight it out in court, with one accusing the other of infringement. That's how I assume it would work.

[drives fast]

I interpret that to mean that in order to sue another person for copying your work, you need to register your design as your own copyright (regardless of if the other person had registered his version of your work). So you get 2 copyright registrations for similar designs - then you fight it out in court, with one accusing the other of infringement.

with the requirement of a coptright search before registration, that makes it so no two people cannot copyright the same thing. basically....first come first serve. It is the same process as registering a business name, a patient, or a trademark. There is a database and that dbase must be searched prior to any registration to avoid duplicate multi party registrations.
The exception (as Erwin says) is two people registering their copyright worded slightly different (as everybody does) and then leave it up to the two parties to drag each other into court to fight it out for ownership.

Steve Machol,
your concerns and questions are over the exact wording and interpretation I was refering to in most of my previous posts. It makes you wonder why everything is so open to interpretation.

[drives fast]

Lets not even get into the problem with copyright law spaning countries. Say I live in Mexico where there are no copyright laws at all. If I were to steal someone's work and claim it as my own, there would be nothing they could do about it period.

It is a crazy world but if it weren't...what would we do to amuse ourselves

[Logician]

Please do not misinterpret the terms of "authorship/copyright" and "legal methods of proving it". They are different.

Erwin was right when saying: "Copyright is different to trademarks or patents - you do NOT need to register it. You do NOT even need to put up a notice, though people do it to ensure others respect their copyright.". Because he was referring to "authorship/property right". In nearly all law systems you just don't NEED to proceed a legal procedure to own authorship or copyright of something you did. You own it automatically when you do it. (As a matter of fact I didn't hear any law system that follows a different rule on this matter.)

Also in many law systems there is no legal system or procudure like "copyright registration". I'm not an expert in US-law system so I have recently learned in this thread that US-law system has such an (may I say "odd") registration system but please notice that this procedure has STILL nothing to do with the authorship rights of a copyrighted material, it is just a procedure to "make proval easy for authors", that is it.

Therefore even if you don't follow this procude and register your material, you are still own its authorship, copyright and property rights(yes, even in US law system). It is made clear in FAQ pages of US Copyright Office too:


When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section ?Copyright Registration.?


So registration of an authorship has nothing to do with property rights, it is just a legal system to help you "prove" your right when it is argued in the future.

Besides please notice that this system is a part of US law system and applies to only USA. Also it must be noted that it is alien to many other law systems in the world so has no meaning to anybody but Americans.

So regarding the other thread you discussed the issue, Erwin is still right about his ideas despite the fact that USA has an instute named "Copyright Office".

[Chris M]

As far as I am aware, there is no Copyright Registration in the UK either...

I could be wrong as I have never investigated it from a UK perspective, but AFAIK the rules are common to all copyright laws/legislations:)

Satan

[drives fast]

I suppose some clarification on everyones part about where they live when discussing laws and right from wrong would have cleared up a lot of confusion.

[Chris M]

Possibly, but as far as I was aware, most copyright issues tend to use American copyright laws...

Satan

[Xenon]

You have to remember the owner of the Site is Jelsoft Enterprises, a brithish company, so the UK Law is responsible for law discussions.

Nevertheless there are international Copyright Laws ;)