Why are all vb4 Mods are so out of date ?

[WOLF-G4MIN-X]

Hi guys,

last time i was using vB that was a long time ago, pre vB4. Tried a few other things in between and then stopped websites completely. Recently got back, checked on vB again and installed the latest vB4 Forum.

Going through the Mod section, I notice many mods (names) i actually remembered using back then, and thats an eternity ago. Are there no newer vB4 Mods anymore ? I mean, most are around 2012/13.

So there is no fixing of their creators to expect anytime ever. Is noone making Mods for vB4 anymore ? I realize that vB5 is out, but many many people say, vB5 is a step back into the wrong direction. Plus, I am not doing that much stuff anymore, that would justify the expensive price of upgrading to vB5 for the little i do.

Just wondering, in that immense list of Mods, which are a bit more up to date, and which of the old ones are still secure and working with 4.2.5 ?

Thanks in advance.

Wolf

[Brandon Sheley]

supply and demand my friend ;)




the supply isn't like it was in the golden years
The owners of vb haven't helped the situation, also some say forums in general aren't as popular but I think there is more to the story. ;)

[WOLF-G4MIN-X]

I agree on that forums arent as popular anymore as back then, most of it is because I think the Social Networks have taken a hugh spot on that.

And people are more and more lazy, so the little they wanna actually "type", they rather spend on some stupid comments on Facebook, Twitter etc.

Back then, IRC chat was a great thing (and I still think it is today), but since Messengers like MSN Messenger (yeah, old as well by now) and similiar came out, many people that were new to IRC sided with those because it looked more fancy. Smilies, animations and all that stuff that messenger apps (especially today) come with, makes it look more fancy than good old IRC chat.

I was sad for a long time, that many people i knew on IRC once, were off that and never came back. I still think that the way IRC works, is still unbeaten by other chat apps.

The more lucky I was when I got to Discord, in which the text chat pays really great hommage to IRC i think.

Anyways, too much off-topic. I love fourms, but if you're getting back into that stuff these days (after a longer time not doing any of that), its appearant that you cant get people to forums as plentyful as back then, when Forums were much more "hyped".

I tried multiple systems over time (and I am not really good with stuff like php/mysql), and I found some systems quite nice, like vB, although I think there were always many security issues that came with it over the years. I tried IPB and somewhat couldnt really get to like it. And Woltlab Burning Board, which I think looks a bit more "dry" but has some nice features, I think vB is still behind of. But Burning Board can get somewhat visually boring long term, which is why I thought I give vB another try.

But with the lack of good (for me) themes and mostly mods that were already abandoned at least a couple years or longer, i am not sure if vB is the way to go for me now. Not seeing to upgrade to vB 5, because of the high price, and the limited usage on my end, to justify the upprade. But i didnt thought that vB4 would be so "passed by", concerning Themes and mods.

Its really too bad. :(

[Brandon Sheley]

The key is not doing the same thing everyone else is doing with their forums ;)

There are still very successful forums out there, and there are forums with great search engine traffic as well from quality content.. eg searching for repair info for my truck I was always landing on the same trailblazer forum

There are still people who like to type, generally they are older people..lol

cater to them :)

oh also mobile use is very big... if your forums or website isn't usable on mobile, you're going to miss out on some traffic depending on your niche

[WOLF-G4MIN-X]

The key is not doing the same thing everyone else is doing with their forums ;)

There are still very successful forums out there, and there are forums with great search engine traffic as well from quality content.. eg searching for repair info for my truck I was always landing on the same trailblazer forum

There are still people who like to type, generally they are older people..lol

cater to them :)

I was always more into gaming, and my days of hosting thousands of files like maps, mods etc are also mostly over, because of these times have passed too mostly, since most games dont even allow maps and mods anymore, unless they're official and you pay for it from the Games developer.

As for older :D , yes , we mid-40s generation still like to type. ;) Thats true.

But still, in order for me to get excited again, i have to find some nice Mods and some nice themes for me to really do something for a forum. And in that big pile of mostly "outdated" Mods, I dont even know which one is still secure and works without issues even now. And since most of the people that created them, are not arround anymore, things are not as easy as it was before.

[Brandon Sheley]

What kind of mods are you looking for that aren't being supported?

Do those mods/plugins offer anything beneficial to your members?

Have you considered changing frameworks, you always have options :)

[WOLF-G4MIN-X]

The problems are not which Mods arent supported, many of the Mods are ages old and might consider a lot of Security issues which I do not want to put into a fresh vB install. And the list of Mods is so long, that it would take a long time to find the "black sheep", especially since most of their creators are not around anymore to maybe do some about it.

But I guess i will check into that. ;)

[Dave]

"if it aint broke dont fix it", most of the "older" mods are just fine. I've actually looked into the code of the majority of the relatively popular plugins and most of them are secure as far as I've seen.

[vbuser2017]

I have to say I agree with the OP it's been a huge task upgrading and trying to find solutions to old mods that don't work anymore. One of them is VB Image Hosting which does support VB 4 but not the most current version / some bugs.

[Brandon Sheley]

I still won't suggest to any of my clients running vbulletin 5 just on principle alone. An open source option like phpbb would be a better option for them. ;)

[Mark.B]

Brandon unfortunately uses vB 5.0.0 as his baseline for not recommending it, the product is light years away from that today. However, vB5 lacks the modification system of the scale that vB3 and vB4 had, which is the main reason you don't see many modifications for vB5. Though some people produce them: www.vbmods.rocks.

There has also been a huge move away from people writing major modifications for free. There are people who will write custom code for you but they will charge, and rightly so.

Part of the reasoning behind this is that there was a phase when a huge number of "entitled" people started demanding instant support for free mods and posting the most awful abuse and insults when they didn't get it. It drove a lot of people away. You see this on other platforms now, a lot of stuff is paid only because of the culture of entitlement that has developed on the internet.

The other big thing I would add - the days of being able to get people to join a forum because of all your fantastic modifications are over, if they ever existed. Nobody cares if you have a classified adverts section, or can upload your own videos, or can run auctions, or play arcade games - the world has moved on, these facilities are better provided elsewhere. The remaining successful forums are about content, content, content, and also content. Nothing else.

[Brandon Sheley]

Wrong Mark, I don't suggest any version of vbulletin 5.

I've had to work on it at various points since it was released and I'm not surprised at all that the community developers have moved on.

The options in the forum world are still out there and many for free, just not with vb5.

[Mark.B]

Wrong Mark, I don't suggest any version of vbulletin 5.

I've had to work on it at various points since it was released and I'm not surprised at all that the community developers have moved on.

The options in the forum world are still out there and many for free, just not with vb5.
vB5 is not a good choice if you want modifications.

What I am pointing out though is that many of those who say "don't touch vB5, it is rubbish" only looked at 5.0.0 five years ago, and yet they give that same advice as if the product was still the same. If it were, I'd never suggest vB5 as an option for anyone, but the facts are it's a very different product these days.

But as always, when people say they want to upgrade or migrate, involving any software, I always question them as to why. If you have a successful, functioning forum, what are the compelling reasons to upgrade or change? Whatever platform it's on, if it works, the default position should be "leave it alone".

Hosts do not help with this, constantly telling people to "upgrade your software" as a "fix" for all manner of server issues.

[IggyP]

vb5 still lacks basic function issues, in particular for any image content based forums its purely useless.....or if you want a forum that respects permissions instead of telling you it has them but them not working etc etc.....if you do get into it there is still a long list i think most users would agree unless they have a casual text forum like vb.com.

many issues are not addressed and ive been with it since release....if you even watch the jiras its pretty shocking to see regular severe regressions and basic functionality issues that are only half casually worked into fixes....

i do agree about vb5 its nice to "not need" so much external modification...i can see a future potential that i keep waiting as patient as i can for... but for most practical sense as it is atm it cant be taken seriously if we are talking honestly....unless you want it for a casual forum in which case their are better options as vbulletin has historically excelled at having a better editor and being best suited for more professional and technical content....

[cellarius]

vB5 is not a good choice
Some might say that sentence should end there.

Telling people that coders left because people got demanding really is misleading. There have always been people that were demanding. Most people left for other reasons. Poor quality (and having a finally rather usable version after five years is not something to be proud of), and company policy (which did not change, see recent events here).

But as always, when people say they want to upgrade or migrate, involving any software, I always question them as to why. If you have a successful, functioning forum, what are the compelling reasons to upgrade or change? Whatever platform it's on, if it works, the default position should be "leave it alone".

And you really think it's not telling that vB 5, after five years on the market, should not offer good reasons for most, if not every user to upgrade? However you try to rationalize it?

[IggyP]

not meaning to beat on a dead horse but there really are some valid points here which IB seems to not get or else ignore for some reason...

to compound things, this whole vb5 problems episode comes at the worse possible time... when forums themselves are struggling in the first place....i can understand a pressure to make it more modern, like adding the social media buttons of last upgrade...but seriously things that are built into it RIGHT NOW....NEED TO WORK....

stop pushing forward adding new features before basic things work, that has to be a solid logic by now right? you can angle for those "lifetime buys" of people who will pretty surely end up hating the product once they actually try to use it...and/or be unable to revert back....but should that really be the main target market and strategy??? how long can that last?

what i notice most these days is the instagraming facebookers of the world have very low patience so things need to make sense easily.....be intuitive, and most importantly WORK.

if you have to explain how to create content with a long article explaining half working buggy functions and doubled up functions that create problems if not done properly etc....you already lost them, they just closed the window called your site a joke and went back to facebook....

[In Omnibus]

I was under the impression this is a vbulletin 4 general discussions thread. It would be nice if not every thread devolved into a vbulletin5 bashing contest.

[TheLastSuperman]

I was under the impression this is a vbulletin 4 general discussions thread. It would be nice if not every thread devolved into a vbulletin5 bashing contest.

Most assume that should be the case however how can someone accurately comment on the original posters inquiry without it evolving into something along those lines? vB5 lead to the downfall of modification development at vBulletin.org imho. If vB5 would have allowed customization with a in-depth plugin system (lol or at least something similar to vB4) FROM THE BEGINNING many of the coders from that era would have stayed, would have continued development, and would be much more pleased with the product AND would have more than likely continued developing matching vB4/vB5 mods like we used to see simultaneous vB3/vB4 modification releases. No one realizes that (this is my opinion) back then vB4 was being hacked left and right, so they took out the plugin system in vB5 I remember Paul told me he was tasked with removing it - ACK! Also they didn't allow it at all on the cloud based on that in a sense too but more so overall security reasons. Basically they wanted to save face imo, if you just had over 30k of your customers vBulletin powered sites hacked in a 6 month span and it was all over the then "interwebz" and the tech sites well...

Normally I would have agreed with you about it being derailed but every so often a thread is not that bad OR its borderline with both subjects correlating and like I mentioned above the vB4 current state of things was affected by the release of vB5 and the continued lack-there-of plugin system until here recently.

If you're on vB4 you can still find great mods that still work fine, you can also hire a developer in the paid requests section or via third-party sites to design and code a modification if you truly want it.

[In Omnibus]

Everything above may be perfectly accurate, however the question was why vB4 mods are so out of date, which can be answered without any mention whatsoever of vB5. vB4 is no longer being developed. There is no money in free modifications. Forums are no longer winning the popularity contest. They have been replaced by social media. The removal of the hooks in vB5 has nothing whatsoever to do with any of those things.

I purchased vB5 the day it was released so I am fully aware of its history. At some point either the product serves a person's needs or it doesn't and that person should seek an alternative. Complaining about history that can't be rewritten is pointless.

For the record, I am running an instance of vB5 right now and its works perfectly well for our purposes. Perhaps that's because I am not actively seeking things about which to complain. If we're going to allow people to derail conversations with complaints allow me to derail this one with compliments to the handful of people who have worked tirelessly to correct the vB5 product. The developers have spent countless hours fixing countless issues on a product I am sure they would never have released had it been their decision. Let's not pretend the decision was theirs. Wayne and the customer support team have dealt with a rash of angry customers the entire time, including but certainly not limited to myself once or twice.

Some of the people who made this product worth owning for the last 17 years have moved on. Those who are still around deserve more than to be the corporate whipping boys for decisions that weren't theirs to make. Customers deserve better than to have to sift through walls of the same complaints every time they attempt to use this site. Ergo, if the need to bring vB5 into the conversation is something one cannot avoid perhaps it could at least be done only in the interest of asking the question asked and not as a prelude to endless tangential nonsense that has nothing to do with the question.

If people ask why vB5 sucks (it doesn't but I digress) there are plenty of threads on that without creating more of them.

[cellarius]

Everything above may be perfectly accurate, however the question was why vB4 mods are so out of date, which can be answered without any mention whatsoever of vB5.
No, it can't. Bacause many coders of said addons left the vB ecosystem precisely because of vB5 and company policy, and if a company representative decides to conveniently forget that. What you expect is something like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0

[WOLF-G4MIN-X]

I have to agree with, for example IggyP & cellarius.

Its funny how past mistakes on the end of the developers are just swapped aside and justified with "moving forward" comments.

I loved vB back then, between 3 & 4, when I came to vB the first time. It was great, it was active, its features were just awesome. I didnt leave vB after a couple years because I didnt like it anymore, but because I a restless sort of type and had to try other things as well.

Now that I came back, and didnt even thought that my license was still good, I thought ok, lets see if I can do have the same joy like back then. I mean, I heard over time about the lots and lots of security issues with vB, and at the time I was either trying other things or not doing any forums of my own and so I was glad I wasn't hit as bad as other people were in that time.

Removing possibilities for plugins & mods, and with that limiting it more and more, for a price of 200 $ thats not ok. If you couldn't get your security stuff solved, try harder (yeah, I know, sounds so easy and I am pretty sure it wasn't). But again, for the price that you ask for your product, thats not an excuse in my opinion.

I realize, that social media and the fact that people (most) have become lazy and dont even care to write much anymore outside of Facebook, Twitter and all these other platforms, made forums and systems like it take a gigantic step towards obselete, which is really sad. I guess the little that most people write these days, is filled to the max with 1 - 3 Facebook posts, and thats it.

Forums have it much harder now than back then. But that doesnt mean, in my opinion, to limit the Software's capabilities to be able to do all the great stuff they could do back then, when forums were much more popular. As it was said above, content, content, content .... but its not like you also limited the functionality in the prices. 200 $ for content, content, content, thats a big no.

I was working with Woltlab the last few years before I made a complete break with any website I was working on. And honestly, their stuff seems to work fine, and they're not even so expensive as vB. And they still rock the Mods & Plugins and stuff.

I thought about upgrading to vB5 when I found out that I still had my license, but not only I heard that vB5 was going into a bad direction, but also the little I do with it for the time being, would by no means justify upgrading with so much money into something that it appears, didnt really move forward, but backwards. I think vB has to think about that going back with less functionality, cant mean to still ask as much money for it as you do.

There was never a forum that had all so interesting features built-in from the start, plugins & mods were and still are (for me at least) very important. And you had great Mod development with vB3 & 4 here. So many people made stuff for vB, that was exceptional I think. And then those people were kicked in the face from the people they spent so much time & effort for, to help and make vB something great. And you really think that its unjustified to talk about it, as often as it happen ?

I still like vB (4), but its a big disappointment how the devs defend their actions in such a way, considering its their doing that it came to what it did. As so often, people like to hear good things about their accomplishments, but not the bad. Then they get cranky.

When I created this topic, I didnt think that it would get that much attention and posts. I would like to thank those of you that helped me understand, why this is happening. ;)

[In Omnibus]

No, it can't. Bacause many coders of said addons left the vB ecosystem precisely because of vB5 and company policy, and if a company representative decides to conveniently forget that. What you expect is something like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0

That argument is a non sequitur. It's like leaving your job with Dodge because you loved the old Charger but hate the new one. vB4 developers could have kept right on developing for vB4. The fact that many of them were unable to grasp the API in vB5 doesn't prevent coding for vB4. Many coders left without any explanation whatsoever. At least one left for health reasons. One passed away. One continues to update its vB4 products while refusing to work on its vB5 products. Some have become vB staff members and have far less time for developing and maintaining modifications. There are far more reasons why vB4 modifications are out of date than just "vB5 was garbage when it was released."

[cellarius]

That argument is a non sequitur. It's like leaving your job with Dodge because you loved the old Charger but hate the new one. vB4 developers could have kept right on developing for vB4.
You see where "job" and "free addons" makes your anology kind of... weird? I can't remember ever being paid either by IB or by anyone that used my addons. You see how I get to choose to spend my spare time in an environment that I like?

The fact that many of them were unable to grasp the API in vB5
And that's exactly where people will start rolling on the floor laughing. But you're welcome to a little spiteful remark now and then :)

Many coders left without any explanation whatsoever. Ah, you see, people don't have to explain themselves, and they don't have to do so here.
At least one left for health reasons. One passed away. One continues to update its vB4 products while refusing to work on its vB5 products. Some have become vB staff members and have far less time for developing and maintaining modifications. There are far more reasons why vB4 modifications are out of date than just "vB5 was garbage when it was released."
Of course there are more reasons. But that does not disprove that for some, and I say many, probably even most, product quality and company behaviour was the main reason. Nothing of what you list explains that "coincidental" mass exodus of coding talent in a rather short timeframe or the overall quietness of vb.org and vb.com if compared to earlier years. Exceptionally funny is your mentioning of coders who got employed by IB. That wouldn't be many of the core staff that got treated shabilly by IB right on this very site just a few weeks ago, and therefore stepped down? But of course, that was entirely their fault. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm out of here. Although it's kinda funny :D

[Mark.B]

Some might say that sentence should end there.

Telling people that coders left because people got demanding really is misleading. There have always been people that were demanding. Most people left for other reasons. Poor quality (and having a finally rather usable version after five years is not something to be proud of), and company policy (which did not change, see recent events here).


And you really think it's not telling that vB 5, after five years on the market, should not offer good reasons for most, if not every user to upgrade? However you try to rationalize it?

A lot of the above was arguably relevant in 2012. vB5 isn't remotely the same today as it was then, and there is plenty of interest in upgrading.

Of course it is far from perfect, but as I said to Brandon, many people base their current views of vBulletin 5 as if 5.0.0 was the current version. It is nothing like that today.

I also did say this earlier, which seems to have been forgotten:

vB5 lacks the modification system of the scale that vB3 and vB4 had, which is the main reason you don't see many modifications for vB5.

And that remains true. It's hard to learn and hard to modify. That is your number one reason, much as people like to claim other reasons.

--------------- Added 1507822556 at 1507822556 ---------------

Removing possibilities for plugins & mods, and with that limiting it more and more, for a price of 200 $ thats not ok. If you couldn't get your security stuff solved, try harder (yeah, I know, sounds so easy and I am pretty sure it wasn't). But again, for the price that you ask for your product, thats not an excuse in my opinion.

Do you understand why the plugin system was considered a security risk?

It's got nothing to do with how vBulletin itself is coded.
It's because people can easily hook malicious code in there.
You can't "get your security stuff solved" when it isn't your code that's responsible.

Rightly or wrongly, that's the situation, and running around shouting "it's all nasty vBulletin's fault" in a long post where you've just demonstrated you that you fundamentally don't understand the system you're talking about, isn't really a good starting point.

--------------- Added 1507822777 at 1507822777 ---------------

I still like vB (4), but its a big disappointment how the devs defend their actions in such a way, considering its their doing that it came to what it did. As so often, people like to hear good things about their accomplishments, but not the bad. Then they get cranky.

You do understand that when you work for a large company as a developer, you code what you are told to code?

It doesn't matter whether you agree it's a good idea or not, you do as you are told, or you have no job.

I rather tire of seeing the very skilled and very hard working vB development team slated like every world problem is their fault.

You want to slate management decisions, of vBulletin or any company, go right ahead. Don't slate the staff who are doing what they told to do, just like with most jobs.

[Dave]

On a positive note, I've worked with clients who had vBulletin 5 when it came out and still use it today, there has been significant improvements and these clients are satisfied with how things work right now in the latest release. The first release was rather hectic but they have definitely improved it.

[TheLastSuperman]

Everything above may be perfectly accurate, however the question was why vB4 mods are so out of date, which can be answered without any mention whatsoever of vB5. vB4 is no longer being developed. There is no money in free modifications. Forums are no longer winning the popularity contest. They have been replaced by social media. The removal of the hooks in vB5 has nothing whatsoever to do with any of those things.

I purchased vB5 the day it was released so I am fully aware of its history. At some point either the product serves a person's needs or it doesn't and that person should seek an alternative. Complaining about history that can't be rewritten is pointless.

For the record, I am running an instance of vB5 right now and its works perfectly well for our purposes. Perhaps that's because I am not actively seeking things about which to complain. If we're going to allow people to derail conversations with complaints allow me to derail this one with compliments to the handful of people who have worked tirelessly to correct the vB5 product. The developers have spent countless hours fixing countless issues on a product I am sure they would never have released had it been their decision. Let's not pretend the decision was theirs. Wayne and the customer support team have dealt with a rash of angry customers the entire time, including but certainly not limited to myself once or twice.

Some of the people who made this product worth owning for the last 17 years have moved on. Those who are still around deserve more than to be the corporate whipping boys for decisions that weren't theirs to make. Customers deserve better than to have to sift through walls of the same complaints every time they attempt to use this site. Ergo, if the need to bring vB5 into the conversation is something one cannot avoid perhaps it could at least be done only in the interest of asking the question asked and not as a prelude to endless tangential nonsense that has nothing to do with the question.

If people ask why vB5 sucks (it doesn't but I digress) there are plenty of threads on that without creating more of them.

Why did Star Wars Episode II end? Because Episode III was released (well and because the credits rolled at the end lol). Sure the current vB4 lack of mods can be equated to vB5 coming along so we mentioned it. Why did Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: Secret of the Ooze sales decline? When TMNT III: Turtles in Time came out... Semantics!

@Other statement about not understanding API: Understand the API? There was NO documentation on it back then, none and the plugin system didn't exist until recently.

Anything that comes after the previous affects the current then becomes the new norm for a while but truth be told Cellarius pretty much summed up much of my reply in his before I could even login today :p. Remember though folks that much of us agree on many things we're simply voicing our opinion i.e. I agree with you now that vB5 is perfectly fine (imho) so we can't agree to disagree if we're in the same book, just a different page until we catch up to each other.