[debate] is this ..vB Legal?

[Dr.CustUmz]

UPDATE read the WHOLE TOS!! section 1.2 states
1.2 Notices. The Software must contain vBulletin Solutions? copyright and other proprietary notices that appear on or in the Software, unless a Branding Free License is purchased.
nothing more nothing less... yup legally, im good even according to their own TOS =)

ok so im designing my new skin, and since it wasnt a live skin when i got the message that im removing the copyright i ignored it cause i was putting it back, just hadn't got to that point yet, wanted to test just my html inside.

so when i added the copyright back this is how i did it.

<li><a href="http://vbulletin.com" title="$vbphrase[powered_by_vbulletin]">vBulletin&reg;</a></li>

the copyright phrase is in red, and this is how it looks on the skin i'm working on.
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=149084&stc=1&d=1399762921
so, it's there, shoot i even linked to them (which is not required). so i'd like to know is that technically breaking the terms and conditions?

i know i've seen skin sources (in the actual xml's) not have the phrase at all but instead just say "powered by vBulletin" so i just want to be cautious and find out for sure.

[AusPhotography]

Often (c) is done by appending to that phrase :)

[Mark.B]

The full copyright notice needs to be visible on page load, it must not require a mousover to see it.

[K4GAP]

ok so im designing my new skin, and since it wasnt a live skin when i got the message that im removing the copyright i ignored it cause i was putting it back, just hadn't got to that point yet, wanted to test just my html inside.

so when i added the copyright back this is how i did it.

<li><a href="http://vbulletin.com" title="$vbphrase[powered_by_vbulletin]">vBulletin&reg;</a></li>the copyright phrase is in red, and this is how it looks on the skin i'm working on.
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=149084&stc=1&d=1399762921
so, it's there, shoot i even linked to them (which is not required). so i'd like to know is that technically breaking the terms and conditions?

i know i've seen skin sources (in the actual xml's) not have the phrase at all but instead just say "powered by vBulletin" so i just want to be cautious and find out for sure.

Coming to your own conclusion via a poll does not change the requirement that the copyright be in full, and fully visible upon page load.

[DreadsUK]

I had the same issue previously. i presume they gave you an email stating you have 28 days to put it right?

Then that is what you have to respond and you can equally request additional time if they haven't responded. I studied law so it comes in very helpful with contract :p

Notices can be scary but they don't have to be.

All you have to do is do the best you can to what you believe to be correct in your understanding of the initial agreement. Screenshot and reply requesting 28 days for their response. If they don't respond, they agree to whatever you've submitted by acquiescence. This can go on for years if you really wanted it to lol.

in all honesty, be polite and honourable in your approach. hope that helps

[Zyon]

On mobiles when you haven't mouse, on old mobiles especially you can't on any way see it.

So you need to put whole copyright to be visible without mouseover.

[Zachery]

As semi official response, the copyright must be plainly visible on every page.

[Dr.CustUmz]

I had the same issue previously. i presume they gave you an email stating you have 28 days to put it right?

Then that is what you have to respond and you can equally request additional time if they haven't responded. I studied law so it comes in very helpful with contract :p

Notices can be scary but they don't have to be.

All you have to do is do the best you can to what you believe to be correct in your understanding of the initial agreement. Screenshot and reply requesting 28 days for their response. If they don't respond, they agree to whatever you've submitted by acquiescence. This can go on for years if you really wanted it to lol.

in all honesty, be polite and honourable in your approach. hope that helps

no theres no way for anyone to even see this right now its just a theme im making and i thought that would be a nice way to include the copyright. i mean even before hover i have vBulletin(r) and then on hover it gives you the full phrase... i honestly cant think of why it wouldnt be "legal" since it is still branded with vBulletin weather the user can see the whole copyright or not.

i mean i could be a total ass about it and have the phrase one shade lighter/darker than my background color so its hard as hell to see cause again that would TECHNICALLY not be breaking the law... cause the copyright IS there.

so me typing out vBulletin(R) in itself and showing the rest of the text upon hover in a sexy way, really i dont see the harm. would it be more admirable of me to type out "Powered by vBulletin(R)" and have that show the rest of the copyright upon hover, cause as i said previously, I've see quite a few skins that have the phrase ($vbphrase[powered_by_vbulletin]) completely removed and just text saying powered by vbulletin... in a legal/technical since, i see no harm in this. and i think i may do as dreads suggested send in my code and some screenshots to J$ / vB and see if i can get a response from them, but i dont think even what THEY say would matter its more i'd have to talk to lawyers, but thats just too much work lol. maybe if i start making DBTech kind of cash id go that route lol. Cause i plan on selling my skins, and i'd like to be able to use this method in more than one way, cause the things you could do with this are amazing, and look so elegant.

[Zachery]

As semi official response, the copyright must be plainly visible on every page.
I am a staff member.

[Dr.CustUmz]

I am a staff member.

yes and that's my point though... of coarse vbulletin officials are going to say no i have to do it THEIR way, but legally... i print out the company's name. that's TECHNICALLY/LEGALLY all i am required to have as far as copyright legality.

[Zachery]

Well, I am telling you what we tell people.

I'm sure the legal guy will be more than willing to deal with you, if you want to tread that tight line.

[Dr.CustUmz]

Well, I am telling you what we tell people.

I'm sure the legal guy will be more than willing to deal with you, if you want to tread that tight line.

im going to PM you cause not treading, but i would actually love to speak to an actual attorney about this, cause I'm just starting out and would love to know legally what i can and can not do.

just cause a vb / J$ rep says we cant do it our way... does not mean its technically illegal to do it another way.

[tbworld]

Are you really going to defend your claim in court. An attorney's take on the situation is only informational, they do not uphold the law -- just help you research/present/defend your view. Paying the branding free option is much cheaper then trying to be right.

The rest of us just leave the copyright in and get on with our lives. As a business man, fretting over this does not make any sense to me. Just trying to help.

We all know where you are coming from. :)

[Dr.CustUmz]

Are you really going to defend your claim in court. An attorney's take on the situation is only informational, they do not uphold the law -- just help you research/present/defend your view. Paying the branding free option is much cheaper then trying to be right.

The rest of us just leave the copyright in and get on with our lives. As a business man fretting over this does not make any sense to me. Just trying to help.

We all know where you are coming from. :)

its not that, and if i wasn't going to be selling my skins here shortly i really wouldn't be making to big of a deal about it. To clarify this a little, I'll share the PM I sent to Zach with you guys. It's not that i want to argue this, but i mean... technically speaking i'm branding it... anyway here's what i PM'd him (since he actually works for J$ / vB)
im not trying to argue about this or anything, it's more of a curiosity. overall i am still including the copyright, i keep vBulletin plainly visible, yes i know it's not ideally the way vB would like it to be done... but credit is still givin.

what i showed in the SS is kind of the way i want to go about it for all of my skins even thought up some pretty cool css transition ones that are collapsed to say "powered by vBulletin(c)" and then on hover it expands to say the rest of the copyright info, even though i believe "powered by vBulletin" is all that is required, but that's kind of the reason i'd like to speak to you guys, or even an attorney about it.

the only reason it's such a big deal to me is because i plan on making and selling skins, if it was just being debated for my personal site i really would not be arguing my cause so much lol.

but, if needed i can throw together a few html examples of different ways i was thinking and you and your co workers could take a look at them, or even let the law guy see them =) it's nothing too serious and its really not a big deal if i end up just having to print the phrase on my footer templates, BUT i'd just like there to be a uniqueness to my skins. i kind of get that this hover popup one not being approved how i demo'd it in the screen shot, but if i were to have the visible text say "powered by vbulletin(c)" and the hover show the rest i dont see why there would be any issues with that.

like i said though, i can make an html file full of different ways, and have you guys let me know what is/isn't acceptable.

maybe that will give you guys a better idea too =)

i have a feeling vB's TOS are about to change a little lol

[tbworld]

its not that, and if i wasn't going to be selling my skins here shortly i really wouldn't be making to big of a deal about it. To clarify this a little, I'll share the PM I sent to Zach with you guys. It's not that i want to argue this, but i mean... technically speaking i'm branding it... anyway here's what i PM'd him (since he actually works for J$ / vB)
maybe that will give you guys a better idea too =)


I see where you are going with this now, makes a lot more sense. :)

[Dr.CustUmz]

1.2 Notices. The Software must contain vBulletin Solutions’ copyright and other proprietary notices that appear on or in the Software, unless a Branding Free License is purchased.
nothing more nothing less... Pretty sure im good to do it the way i showed and the ways i plan =)

[Mr_Running]

Reading the branding and my experience...

Do not remove this copyright notice --> {vb:rawphrase powered_by_vbulletin}

Phrase: Powered by vBulletin must be visible at all times not on a hover

Things you can do
remove version number
remove link to vBulletin site
copyright can be place on one line

[Dr.CustUmz]

Reading the branding and my experience...

Do not remove this copyright notice --> {vb:rawphrase powered_by_vbulletin}

Phrase: Powered by vBulletin must be visible at all times not on a hover

Things you can do
remove version number
remove link to vBulletin site
copyright can be place on one line

im going off of the TOS, what they put in the source has no effect if it's not stated in the TOS (legally speaking) and nothing says it MUST be visible at all times... j/s

this may be more of a debate for vb.com.... but i've got my conclusion, not off this thread, but from vb's official license holder TOS, and thats what i will base my designs off of =)

technically speaking, from their TOS i COULD only show the (c) on the index if thats all i wanted it to show on, i wont be doing it this way... but just again legally speaking per their own TOS =)

[DreadsUK]

I'm sure the legal guy will be more than willing to deal with you, if you want to tread that tight line.

Thats unnecessary provocation and poor behaviour. This guy is simply trying to establish what he can and cant do. No need for ill manners. It really doesn't represent you very well at all. Just so you are aware. I'm taking screen shots of your actions from this point on. Just in case this does go down the legal route as you seem so keen to provoke.

im going to PM you cause not treading, but i would actually love to speak to an actual attorney about this, cause I'm just starting out and would love to know legally what i can and can not do.

just cause a vb / J$ rep says we cant do it our way... does not mean its technically illegal to do it another way.

I'm going to pm you now and recommend no further public contact with the vBstaff on this matter.

I would suggest that you seek only email contact and make use of the stipulations afforded in the email guidelines.

[Zachery]

Okay, you do that then. Walking a fine line is his choice to do so, but it might end him up in some light trouble. It was a warning that it could cause him problems. Which is very true.



If you want full clarification of what you want to do is okay, please contact sales@vbulletin.com and we'll make sure to get you an answer.

However, generally the copyright must be fully intact, and plainly visible.


And because I'm a fun guy who likes to have fun, screen shots are totally proof

[DreadsUK]

Right, well im taking a screen shot of your screen shot. That'll learn ya! :p

http://s17.postimg.org/f3oaovga7/Screen_shot_2014_05_12_at_19_32_39.png

lol, reminds me of this ('http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw3G80bplTg') :p