vb.org policy change

[Bryan Ex]

I have read all the various threads about hiring a developer along with the vb.org policies concerning such. I have to say I can understand the position of not getting involved in user disputes and appreciate the efforts made to help new users find a legitimate developer to do some custom work. All that being said I do not understand why vb.org continues to allow certain users with 10, 15, 20+ claims against them for being paid yet not providing service to continue to feed off the membership. It seems to me that due diligence would kick in after a certain number of complaints. Surely after 20 users have stated they have been ripped off there is an issue with one particular member. I do understand there would be no way of tracking this but should a member point it out there should be repercussions if a given tend of scamming is obvious. Generally speaking I think vb.org offers a tremendous service to the vBulletin community offering mods, styles, non-supported vBulletin support, general information, and even lining up contractors for custom work. It's unfortunate that a few scammer members take advantage of that and work the system knowing they won't be affected in any way. I respectfully ask that vb.org reconsider their membership policies with regards to scamming their own membership.

[TheLastSuperman]

It all boils down to who is telling the truth... we don't know. If we then take time to get involved with disputes then there's not much time to help out like we do normally.

I'm split on this, at the same time though you can do proper research, search the paid request area for feedback and see if they have a good reputation or not. I myself ask for a half deposit up front usually however sometimes due to some "scammers" I run into clients who will not pay until the jobs completed.

I say make your own terms, don't settle for less and find a developer that's right for you.

You could say something along the lines of:

No Payment Up Front.
Must see a working Demo.
Job must be completed within X Days, if not I will cancel request.


^ That may or may not yield the replies you were expecting, you may then have to adjust your terms or simply stick to your guns.

In my opinion DON'T HIRE THEM IF:

They have more than 2-3 bad feedback reviews in the paid request area.
They have less than 3-5 recent examples of sites they've done work on.
They cannot provide references.
They want FULL payment up front. *Red Flag for anyone, trust is a two-way street imo!


It's not impossible to find a good coder/designer for your site but does take some effort... You cannot simply post in paid request and expect a shining example of moral and ethical greatness to handle each request, heck if that was the case common courtesy would never have went half way out the window and I'd be seeing more folks hold doors open for me instead of letting them close when I'm < 5 feet behind them!

Could we change the policy... sure but then it's like opening another can of worms entirely, we feel it's best for you to do your research on a person before hiring and when I say that I mean it, be THOROUGH! If you make it to where a con artist has to provide proof of good work and references well then they can't provide that if they never do any valid work right? Exactly ;).

This is just my opinion on this subject, other staffs opinions may differ.

[Bryan Ex]

It all boils down to who is telling the truth... we don't know.
That's the part I fully appreciate however if you have 20+ different members all claiming the same issue I would suggest there's a problem and vb.org is supporting it at that point. If you think 20+ complaints against a single member is a stretch let me know and I will post the links. One or two complaints I can see as being "disputable". It just doesn't seem to do vb.org any justice to turn a blind eye to the blatant scammers working your boards IMO.

- Bryan

[ozzy47]

I agree with you to a point, but let's look a it this way.

Lets say the member you are referring to has 25 complaints about them scamming someone. Now there is not much said in thread where that member may have delivered, It could total in the thousands.

Now if the staff were to get involved, and say stop this member from viewing the paid requests section, how would they know who is right and who is wrong. I am sure there is plenty of cases where the end user has scammed the developer.

Now lets say the person that was banned from the paid requests section, uses the money they get as their prime source of income, the staff member who banned them, as well as the company it's self is opening themselves to being possibly sued for slander, defamation of character or some such.

Would that happen? Doubtful. Could it happen? Yes.

Only way someone could accuse someone of scamming is to actually be involved with the whole process, sort of a middle man, or a liaison between the requester, and the coder, and that will never happen.

[Bryan Ex]

I as well as the company it's self is opening themselves to being possibly sued for slander, defamation of character or some such.
Liability laws in the US are far beyond what we deal with in Canada. Now that you bring up the point of liability I think it prudent that I consult with a US attorney to find out exactly what the liability issues are. I would have expected vb.org to agree to "doing the right thing" but if it comes down to legal issues so be it. Pretty disappointed on this one to be honest. There was a day when what seemed right and what seemed wrong was apparent.

[ozzy47]

Yeah that day has since long passed, There was a day when you got into a fight with someone, you would duke it out, and then later maybe shook hands, and went and had a drink.

Now if you get into a fight, and beat someone, you have to worry about them suing you, or even worse retaliation.

[Bryan Ex]

Issue is... you are referring to a single fight. What I'm referring to is a repeated incidence being worked through vb.org. Pretty easy to establish a trend but vb.org has chosen to ignore that issue based on policy. Okay. Just saying my part that I disagree with it as prudent site management practices.

[TheLastSuperman]

Issue is... you are referring to a single fight. What I'm referring to is a repeated incidence being worked through vb.org. Pretty easy to establish a trend but vb.org has chosen to ignore that issue based on policy. Okay. Just saying my part that I disagree with it as prudent site management practices.

However if someone doing the hiring did thorough enough research they would see more than 1 negative feedback in the paid request area regarding the coder in question.

I just don't see how some people will not go through the "trouble" of researching someone who will have full access to their site before hiring them yet when they are scammed they have more than enough time to take action - If they put that amount of effort and sheer tenacity into it beforehand then there would be far less threads of this nature. If you're simply visiting their profile, seeing a list of modifications they released and assuming that equals the type of person you're looking for to do work for you then you're not doing your job to protect your site and your hard earned money.

Don't let people cheat you. If you've been cheated then take action and if need be sue, trying to place the blame on others or an entire system that's been in place for more than eight years when hiring someone without doing a in-depth amount of research just does not cut it. Trust me I see where you're coming from, I agree with you to a degree but at the same time I as a devloper offering services has been cheated in the past too, what say you to that? Want to know what I say? Live and let live, Karma is a (insert cuss word here) and I'm onto bigger and better things :D.

Just another 2 cents, to date you now have .04 cents in your account :p.
^ Laugh AT ME not with me on that one, I'm silly and I blame it on my three kids!

[Bryan Ex]

What you have posted is correct however (I believe) there is a certain responsibility to a forum owner to remove scammers, spammers, and criminals from their membership list. I run a forum dealing with an agricultural commodity. If I had reports from 10+ members stating they were riped off I won't simply claim seller beware and brush my hands of the issue. If there was a legitimate issue of my forums being "worked" I would step in. vb.org's position is pretty straight forward and I understand that. I'm simply stating I'm pretty disappointed in the lack of credibility and responsibility. I would have thought better should things go far enough. I have seen members removed due to difference of opinion in the past or for bad mouthing Vb in general yet those that receive repeated complaints continue on. Pretty sure this is my last reply on this topic but wanted to state my piece.

[Max Taxable]

Pretty easy to establish a trend After you first said: I do understand there would be no way of tracking this
:confused:

They have no way of knowing if the complaints are legitimate, and if they do as you seem to be suggesting it would easily lead to abuse of complaints - one unhappy customer gets 20 of his friends to write bad reviews or complaints to get the developer kicked off.

[ozzy47]

Right, that's why I said:

Only way someone could accuse someone of scamming is to actually be involved with the whole process, sort of a middle man, or a liaison between the requester, and the coder, and that will never happen.

It would require a unbiased third party to handle the transaction between the two people, and that won't happen.

[Bryan Ex]

After you first said..
Not interested in a misquote the member contest. I've made my points known for what they are. ma?ana

[Max Taxable]

Not interested in a misquote the member contest. I've made my points known for what they are. ma?anaThere was no misquote, those were direct quotes.

If you have a complaint on a coder, why not make the complaint then link to the other 20 complaints on him. Who are you really trying to help here?

[TheLastSuperman]

I'm simply stating I'm pretty disappointed in the lack of credibility and responsibility.

That is exactly what I was trying to convey when I said this:

However if someone doing the hiring did thorough enough research they would see more than 1 negative feedback in the paid request area regarding the coder in question.

I just don't see how some people will not go through the "trouble" of researching someone who will have full access to their site before hiring them yet when they are scammed they have more than enough time to take action - If they put that amount of effort and sheer tenacity into it beforehand then there would be far less threads of this nature. If you're simply visiting their profile, seeing a list of modifications they released and assuming that equals the type of person you're looking for to do work for you then you're not doing your job to protect your site and your hard earned money.

However do not let assumptions fly and assume that I'm saying that since you were cheated that you deserved it, I simply meant only you can protect yourself. When I said you just now I meant anyone reading this as well and Bryan, all of you be safe.

We offer an area to find someone who may be right for you, it's your responsibility to have faith and trust in them, we are not the ones providing them login details to our site, you are. I cannot stress this enough like I have above - do your research and don't assume anything about the person you're hiring.

[Princeton]

What you have posted is correct however (I believe) there is a certain responsibility to a forum owner to remove scammers, spammers, and criminals from their membership list.
It's NEVER as clean cut as you think.

vborg is a free site. Why should we spend our resources on issues that vborg is not part of? Each transaction is from 2 parties (not 3). Keep in mind that vborg is a depository for free vbulletin modifications not a freelance site.

We make our Requests forum available but that is as far as we go.

How would we define "scammers, spammers, and criminals"? There's a lot of grey areas. What is wrong to you may be ok to another.

[RichieBoy67]

It's NEVER as clean cut as you think.

vborg is a free site. Why should we spend our resources on issues that vborg is not part of? Each transaction is from 2 parties (not 3). Keep in mind that vborg is a depository for free vbulletin modifications not a freelance site.

We make our Requests forum available but that is as far as we go.

How would we define "scammers, spammers, and criminals"? There's a lot of grey areas. What is wrong to you may be ok to another.

Well said and I agree 100%. This would require huge resources because it is not just the buyer that gets burned. Many times it is the dev. There are many things to consider here.

Just be careful and find someone trustworthy and be very specific in your instructions. The large majority of devs here are honest and hard working. Don't let the few thief's here tarnish this valuable resource that we call vb.org!

[CAG CheechDogg]

Whether it is a mod, add-on, template edit or a paid service, it is up to the "consumer" to do his/her homework to make sure they are getting someone reputable.

To expect someone else to do the research and or try to hold someone else responsible from a deal or transaction that you or anyone initiated is ridiculous.

Everyone is told when installing any mod to make a back up of their site, database and what not, why? because v.org is not responsible for any errors that they might cause if you so choose to install that mod.

Same thing with paid services, there is no way we can hold v.org responsible for anything we choose to accept, initiate or install from these forums or allow someone to have access to our forums, database or someone we hire for a service.

If I see 5 people crossing a river successfully, it is up to me to ask them how they did it and what they faced in order to do it. That river's bottom could have changed from the last crossing to mine. I can't rely on past successful crossings and risk my life when I decide to cross, you can bet I will be asking as many questions as possible before I attempt that crossing.

Probably not the best analogy but I am sure you guys get the picture ....

[Paul M]

There is not going to be any change in policy.

We do not get involved in 3rd party disputes, it is up to members to sort out disputes between themselves.

[BirdOPrey5]

20 complaints don't mean 20 unique people made a complaint. It means 20 quasi anonymous usernames made a complaint. It could be 20 unique people but it could be 1 really crazy person with a lot of free time.

[Max Taxable]

20 complaints don't mean 20 unique people made a complaint. It means 20 quasi anonymous usernames made a complaint. It could be 20 unique people but it could be 1 really crazy person with a lot of free time.That's kinda what i was saying. It seemed to strike a nerve too.:D

[Simon Lloyd]

The only way to do it would be to have a form that the client fills in with their request, a coder accepts and posts his price and agreeing to the terms, the money gets paid by the cllient in to an account which is nothing to do with either of them, a sort of escrow, any amendments...etc are noted by and acknowledged by both parties in the same form/thread, when the job is complete/time agreed up both parties acknowledge the original request has come to it's rightful end and the coder hands over the changes from demo to live site or produce a plugin and the money gets paid out of the escrow account.

But then you do need someone willing to mediate and run this kind of thing ;)

[Max Taxable]

The only way to do it would be to have a form that the client fills in with their request, a coder accepts and posts his price and agreeing to the terms, the money gets paid by the cllient in to an account which is nothing to do with either of them, a sort of escrow, any amendments...etc are noted by and acknowledged by both parties in the same form/thread, when the job is complete/time agreed up both parties acknowledge the original request has come to it's rightful end and the coder hands over the changes from demo to live site or produce a plugin and the money gets paid out of the escrow account.

But then you do need someone willing to mediate and run this kind of thing ;)And then this would be E-Lance right? :D

[noppid]

This is a nice change. Back in the day it was the good old boy system and the mods did what benefited them.

[Simon Lloyd]

And then this would be E-Lance right? :DDamn you mean a little research and someone could have hired someone that way? ;)