What's Happening To vBulletin.org?

[Wordplay]

i posted a thread a week ago. i posted another thread almost 2 days ago, replied to 10 or more and couldn't even get a single reply to any questions or inquiries in any of my posts.

so sad, i chose vbulletin for my new project because of the great things possible through vbulletin.org (i used to frequent here in 2005-7) when it was still pretty active. but now i guess i chose wrong. it looks like the majority of coders really did abandon vbulletin. too bad i realized it too late.

where did they all go to?

or is it just that they grew out of it, and no new people seem interested in vbulletin?

[ericgtr]

I have to say that I am too surprised at the lack of participation here lately, granted I lurk most of the time but typically check in once or twice a day to view new mods, etc. New mods have all but stopped being released, with a trickle of what it used to be. Not sure how much vB4 plays a role with this, new features and less mods needed or what but judging by the lack of participation it's probably that fewer people are using vb, it's not just here either I see it happening with a lot of boards. With FB being most people's primary source for social networking it's hard not to see why, I think the days of forums being the staple for internet discussion are behind us. Just my .02

[Jack12]

Yeah, I agree to an extent. Facebook has dealt a blow to many forums on the internet, but at the end of the day it depends who you're catering to and what kind of community you have.

Facebook is a very general thing. You rarely see lengthy discussions on something productive. It's generally full of people updating their statuses and commenting on photos. Not to say that's all too it.

If you ran a general and broad forum then you're in trouble, but if you're in a good niche and can provide a good resource for it then Facebook 'stealing' traffic will be the last thing on your mind.

Anyway, I haven't really seen a lack of activity on this forum, but then I only jumped in on VB4 aswell so I don't know about the good ol' days.

[Alfa1]

Many people are on xenforo or IPB. Plenty of activity there.

[borbole]

In my opinion the problem is not facebook or other forums. The problem is the users themselves who ask for support here. From what I have noticed here during my year as a member at vb.org 85-90% of the questions asked are things which have been asked and answered countless time before and can be found very easily with doing a search. But do they do that, no. What they do is they don''t bother to help themselves and expect others to do the work for them. And when they don''t get any answers they start to moan and complain how bad the support is here etc etc.

But even when they get help, they don''t bother to say a simple Thank you to those who helped them.

It is no wonder than no one feels like heling around anymore.

This is something I have raised before but so far it has fallen in deaf ears.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=241258

[Wordplay]

is it true that xenforo and ipb are so much more active?

@borbole, since you have only been a member for a year i would like to circle out the fact that it would seem impossible for you to relate to how it "used to be".

let me try to make your other points a little more invalid as well.

i have been a member here for years, posted a 4 paid requests in my lifetime. all 3 i posted before 2010, filled up by inbox with more than 10 different coders wishing to take on the project., regardless of how big or small it was the one i posted a week ago got me 1 real coder to offer me his services.

secondly, i did do my search found a lot of threads were people were asking other questions regarding the same topic i had 2 questions on, sadly non asked my question, so instead of hijacking someone elses thread (which i was sure wasn't going to get me any replies considering the inactivity of the board), i started a new thread, 2 never before seen questions, and still no answer.

i'm not placing any blame on the vbulletin.org staff, or anyone else for that matter. i mean if some many migrated away from vbulletin there must be various reasons for that. such as stated before, with facebook, myspace, twitter, youtube, etc, a lot of people no longer have the time to run around forums. luckily i have another solid forum idea i'm sure will take off.

my only disappointment here is that i chose vbulletin for this project rather than look into it's competition first. if it is really doing much better, i'm sure there is a reason for it. if it does have more coders lurking around it's forum, for example, that would be enough reason for me.

[Alfa1]

From what I have noticed here during my year as a member at vb.org 85-90% of the questions asked are things which have been asked and answered countless time before and can be found very easily with doing a search.
While you are certainly right in the respect that people often show too little effort, it does not help that modification discussions are just 1 thread to handle bug reports, feature requests, questions about tweaking the mod, problems & answers, etc. And some answers reside in the thread that relates to another vb version.
Some threads have thousands of replies and have been read over a million times. This makes it virtually impossible to keep up with all information in a modification thread. Its madness to do that.
So while people should definitely throw in some effort to research, the infrastructure to find things with relative ease is missing.

[vijayninel]

The most active and contributing members of vbulletin.org/com may have accounted for a very tiny portion of of the license holders but they contributed to most of the activity here.

Unfortunately, some of the most brilliant minds of vBulletin.org started leaving 2 years back and this has been continuing ever since. Also the vb community has split and many have changed loyalties sometime back.

Also previously there were many forums and sites dedicated to discussing vbulletin. Many of those are also gone or are in decline now. There were also many sites making skins for vB and most of which too are gone now.

There is nothing much we can do about this except stick around and hope that new members join and start contributing. vB still has a lot of potential in it.

I will try to post more and answer questions in the coming days.

[borbole]

is it true that xenforo and ipb are so much more active?

@borbole, since you have only been a member for a year i would like to circle out the fact that it would seem impossible for you to relate to how it "used to be".

let me try to make your other points a little more invalid as well.

i have been a member here for years, posted a 4 paid requests in my lifetime. all 3 i posted before 2010, filled up by inbox with more than 10 different coders wishing to take on the project., regardless of how big or small it was the one i posted a week ago got me 1 real coder to offer me his services.

secondly, i did do my search found a lot of threads were people were asking other questions regarding the same topic i had 2 questions on, sadly non asked my question, so instead of hijacking someone elses thread (which i was sure wasn't going to get me any replies considering the inactivity of the board), i started a new thread, 2 never before seen questions, and still no answer.

i'm not placing any blame on the vbulletin.org staff, or anyone else for that matter. i mean if some many migrated away from vbulletin there must be various reasons for that. such as stated before, with facebook, myspace, twitter, youtube, etc, a lot of people no longer have the time to run around forums. luckily i have another solid forum idea i'm sure will take off.

my only disappointment here is that i chose vbulletin for this project rather than look into it's competition first. if it is really doing much better, i'm sure there is a reason for it. if it does have more coders lurking around it's forum, for example, that would be enough reason for me.

You are right that I don''t know how it was here before, but I guess that mybe the other coders and those who provided support put up with the selfishness and the ungratitude that they got in return for their efforst and now they are fed up with it. I will speak for myself, I used to be very active here in way of pruducing mods and giving support. But after a while after I saw that my efforts were not appreciated, I had more than enough of it.

I will give you a few examples. Look at My mod thread here. I extended a mod with an extra feature and placed the download link to my forum, for free. One had to register only to download it. Look at this user''s post demanding that I put the extending version here as well as he couldn''t be bothered to register at my forum.

Please read this post and a few others that follow.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=2091810&postcount=23

Or at my other mod.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=2100746&postcount=34

As if it is not enough that they get the mods for free but they have to moan and complain and demand all kind of new features that they like without a single regard to the fact that all the mod authors here do this on their foree time.

Or here, one this user doesn''t bother to respond if the solution I posted for him worked or not.

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=257913

But when someone doesn''t get an answer to their support questions and threads for a few minutes they are very quick to yell how bad the support is here and what not.

Maybe other persons who provide support here and create modifications don''t mind that other users don''t appreciate their time and work, or maybe they are used to it or whatever. But not me. Where I come from we are used to be appreciative of others time and efforts that they put in for things that help and benefit us. And it is the same for the other way around.

While you are certainly right in the respect that people often show too little effort, it does not help that modification discussions are just 1 thread to handle bug reports, feature requests, questions about tweaking the mod, problems & answers, etc. And some answers reside in the thread that relates to another vb version.
Some threads have thousands of replies and have been read over a million times. This makes it virtually impossible to keep up with all information in a modification thread. Its madness to do that.
So while people should definitely throw in some effort to research, the infrastructure to find things with relative ease is missing.

It doesn''t matter how easy or not the information is to find. Most of them just won''t use the search feature. They simply want others to do the work for them.

If you would look at my posting history, you will see that I have never asked a single support question here. And believe me, I had like a zillion questions. But I searched and searched until I found what I needed to know. And the information is there, very easy to find if one really wants to do that and put a little effort.

[Paul M]

New mods have all but stopped being released, with a trickle of what it used to be.
There have been 79 new releases in the last 30 days. I dont think that quite counts as a trickle just yet.

The vb4.x add-ons forum has 1053 mods in it, compared to 1025 for vb3.7, or 1157 for vb 3.8 - so not really much of a difference, esp given that 3.8 has over a years headstart on 4.x.

Most of the stuff released for 3.x is now available for 4.x. The greatest release activity is usually after a vb version change - but due to the way IB do this now, the change from 4.0 to 4.1 didnt require a mass re-release.

[FreshFroot]

I would say the BEST coders are mostly all gone now that IB has taken over. I'm talking about people, who KNOW how to code VERY well. The best one Chen, who used to admin here at vBorg was one of the best.

It shows the quality of coders have moved on wards...

[Paul M]

Chen left vb.org years before IB ever came onto the scene.

[vbenhancer]

actually, Chen left way before any good coder was there... rofl

ok i was in, Boofo and John were too, but hey, we were not legion.. lol

and now, yeap, most coders left... any generation of vB make a move in the list of coders, some will raise in the next months as there is new gaps to fill in the market.

[Videx]

My own visits have been less frequent lately because things are working so well.

[stevebullman]

Perhaps a lot of the coders have built up a steady amount of work with repeat business from forum owners that they dont need to come looking for work anymore. Speaking personally.....i throw a lot of work at the coder i use and am pretty demanding of him, i know im his biggest customer, but if he has a handful more that give him anywhere near the amount of work i do, then he certainly isnt going to need to be looking for any extra. just a consideration :)

[BlackThorn]

@Wordplay I don't think it so xenforo suckcs yet 'cause there is no blogs, there is no social groups, there is no photo albums, there is no arcade games, there is no point market system, there is no more! Of course this is the matter of taste I'm respect people who using it.

Well, I just think the one main reason is facebook 'cause it offers so much and also the users could create groups etc within the site, the usage of forums have gone down. but still if the content is good enough the users who really get something out of the active forum conversations will stick to it. A forum conversation is more on thread but facebook has many distractions when compared to a forum. I really don't like facebook it 'cause people being lazy to increase their acknowledge especially in forum that can be useful if we can manage it. sometimes people just seeking fun but don't know the benefits of it. Keep sharing on mailing list and Forum don't be junk by facebook so I've said this on my this post (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=2160050&postcount=1).

[steveman0018]

to be honest about xenforo. Yes it does not have photo albums, social groups, arcade, point etc YET but most of them are mods. THe software has not gone gold yet. Its completely re-written. Kier and Mike took what they did best with the old VB and applied that to zenforo. You can see this by looking at there bug tracker. Its in RC2 and there only 32 bugs. 32! Vbulletin 4 hah, i dont even want to say that number. They are focusing on making the product stable before they release the photo album, social groups, etc. Smart developing ritght there.Its in the works for version 1.1. Xenforo might be small in add on right now but in a year they will be bigger

[TNCclubman]

everyones gone over to xenforo. Im still using vB though for my main site as Im waiting for xenforo to get user albums.

[Paul M]

They are focusing on making the product stable before they release the photo album, social groups, etc.
Are you sure about that ?

I dont recall them ever saying they intend to add such things to the core. I understood they planned to keep it pretty basic and allow features like that to be add-ons.

everyones gone over to xenforo. .
Not everyone. ;)

[TheLastSuperman]

Not everyone. ;)

Hear Hear!

[Jack12]

Not everyone. ;)

Damn straight! :D

[vijayninel]

everyones gone over to xenforo .

If Marco van Harwarden was here then he would have boiled your post in oil for this blasphemous advertisement.

[blind-eddie]

If Marco van Harwarden was here then he would have boiled your post in oil for this blasphemous advertisement.

So true...gonna miss his post.

[Wreck713]

I love vbull, and got too much custom crap on my 3.8 to ever think about changing.

[TNCclubman]

sorry, didnt mean to say everyone. damn now i look like an ass. sorry guys

[BSMedia]

Are you sure about that ?

I dont recall them ever saying they intend to add such things to the core. I understood they planned to keep it pretty basic and allow features like that to be add-ons.


Not everyone. ;)

It's probably better they leave it to the community as well.

[TheLastSuperman]

sorry, didnt mean to say everyone. damn now i look like an ass. sorry guys

Ahh it was just your opinion at the time of posting so no need to feel that way... I've changed my perspective on many things once someone else said something logical :p.

It's probably better they leave it to the community as well.

Yes and no imo, I miss some of em' the rest simply kept preaching negative things, hoping that one day someone would agree. Some people are like that, they keep whining until someone says ohh you poor thing and when your almost 30 with three kids that becomes irritating post after post, after post, after post as it reminds you of your own arguing = pointless and the xenforo stuff went on for ages if not here then vb.com with most of them being none the wiser to any of it, just like beating a dead horse imo :p.

[Zachariah]

It is simple for me, I have no need for VB4x as VB3.8x serves me fine.
I also work AFK 40-60 hours a week and do not have all the time I use to in creating hacks.

If I see something in Vb4 worth the time to do a site conversion, I might make the time.
Until then VB4 is only on my DEV system.

[Nocturnal222]

i hope moderators have the time to merge or delete duplicate threads so as if one will use the search button, it is easy to find the correct mod / answer.

[stevebullman]

I love vbull, and got too much custom crap on my 3.8 to ever think about changing.

ditto, it would cost me a fortune to change to another piece of software, and the associated headaches arent worth the risk. im more than happy with vbulletin!!

[cpvrx]

Yeah, I agree to an extent. Facebook has dealt a blow to many forums on the internet, but at the end of the day it depends who you're catering to and what kind of community you have.

Facebook is a very general thing. You rarely see lengthy discussions on something productive. It's generally full of people updating their statuses and commenting on photos. Not to say that's all too it.

If you ran a general and broad forum then you're in trouble, but if you're in a good niche and can provide a good resource for it then Facebook 'stealing' traffic will be the last thing on your mind.

Anyway, I haven't really seen a lack of activity on this forum, but then I only jumped in on VB4 aswell so I don't know about the good ol' days.

No? Facebook hasn't killed that many forums. Twitter has also taken away certain discussions - but, that doesn't mean anything is to blame for the lack of activity, nobody is partipating, perhaps; everyone is too busy?

[Arkham]

ditto, it would cost me a fortune to change to another piece of software, and the associated headaches arent worth the risk. im more than happy with vbulletin!!

Sorry, offtopic, but I wanted to say you've done a great job with your site(s). Can I ask what you're using for your fungi directory?

[Angel-Wings]

The vb4.x add-ons forum has 1053 mods in it, compared to 1025 for vb3.7, or 1157 for vb 3.8 - so not really much of a difference, esp given that 3.8 has over a years headstart on 4.x.

And during this year VB 4.x made it already to more threads in the support forum than 3.8 in the entire time - not bad ;)
Software doesn't get better if you blow it more and more - and that's maybe the problem since the VB 4.0 release. More functions, more bugs, next release has some bugfixes but again more functions and other bugs.
Like Facebook for users, people (admins) want it simple and working and at the moment VB just doesn't offer this.
Just saying that with the upcoming of Facebook and Twitter the timing to "convert" VB from the nearly perfect 3.8.x into the buggy overloaded 4.x release was very bad. Not to forget that other software - if it didn't got better, they at least were able to hold their standards.

[BlackThorn]

Are you sure about that ?

I dont recall them ever saying they intend to add such things to the core. I understood they planned to keep it pretty basic and allow features like that to be add-ons.


Not everyone. ;)


I agree with you Paul.


If Marco van Harwarden was here then he would have boiled your post in oil for this blasphemous advertisement.


Haha, that was awesome... ^^


No? Facebook hasn't killed that many forums. Twitter has also taken away certain discussions - but, that doesn't mean anything is to blame for the lack of activity, nobody is partipating, perhaps; everyone is too busy?


A facebook admirer... Lol.

[Wordplay]

@borbole, sorry for not replying sooner, since nobody replied to any threads i posted i haven't been around the forum much. only checking in to view pms, as those are the only replies i receive here.

you are completely right though, the tone of some of the people replying to threads (mods) is ridiculous. i understand it to an extend, as i am not a coder at all, i'm more of a leecher. but i reply to every mod i install, and always thank who ever codes a mod i or try out. i've donated to 5 people on here in my lifetime, for mods i no longer use as they are outdated, and i don't see that as thrown out money at all. the unwillingness to register on a coder's forum to show some appreciation or even download a mod-fix/update i cannot understand, but i do understand some posters catching feelings over lack of support. i was looking for a facebook lookalike skin, there are 3 or 4 i believe on here, with practically no information to them, some the examples/demos don't work and they also don't have screencaps, i replied to every one of them weeks ago, and pm'd every one i could who created one, but didn't get a single reply to any of my questions on their mods nor any pms. which is frustrating, i mean imagine looking for a mod for so long, finally finding it, and
a) not getting it to work
b) not knowing how it works

@blackthorn, i have never even looked at xenforo, i just read it was an option people chose over vbulletin, but i'll take your word for it. and yes i think facebook and twitter dumb-down people, i mean telling people that you feel like eating out today is alright, but publicizing your zip code, street or phone number, and telling people what time you're going to "that" cinema, to watch "this" movie, etc, is just asking for trouble. imagine al capone or 2pac had twittered, they wouldn't have survived a single day. but i get it, knowing what your friends are up to and who they are dating can definitely be entertaining.

@steveman, kier is doing xenforo? i did not know that, so he left vb? wow... i'm late on everything... again.

i think, the old coders have just gotten too old, and have got too much going on in their life, to even make time for their old vb-hobby, and because there is too much around (facebook, twitter, youtube, wordpress & blogger (people just creating their own blogs to talk about things)), the younger people don't even have an opportunity to get into something like vbulletin. there used to be a lot of social forums around which worked great, and were highly popular, nowadays people find it better to socialize with their friends rather than with strangers, so facebook comes in handy, and everyone you don't know has a picture of themselves, so you always feel like you know who you're dealing with. the only reason to sign up on a forum these days is to ask/talk to specialists regarding a specific topic. I own a 3D TV, only 1 of my friends does, so who am i gonna talk to things about it? i look for then sign up on a 3D movies site, to talk, ask and download some 3d material.

[Lynne]

When I first became an admin here, I went through this forum to reread the threads. You know what I found was interesting? Every year since the beginning, there have been threads just like this one.

Things do change. Some devs move on, or find real life takes precedence (get married, have kids, get a real job, etc.) and new ones move in. It changes constantly. I don't think that's bad or good, it's just the way it is.

[TheMayhem]

When I first became an admin here, I went through this forum to reread the threads. You know what I found was interesting? Every year since the beginning, there have been threads just like this one.

Things do change. Some devs move on, or find real life takes precedence (get married, have kids, get a real job, etc.) and new ones move in. It changes constantly. I don't think that's bad or good, it's just the way it is.

Lynne's right. Forums are constantly evolving and your just seeing the evolution of vBulletin.org

[onehost]

I think forums are becoming more less popular. These days forums are very difficult to even get going, and if you do not have a bigboard forum today, then chances are you never will have one; at the sametime forums seem to be a dying breed, as forums become less popular, then vb becomes less popular, then forums like vb.org become less popular. I already know one forum that is vb related that has died like 1-2 years ago, at one time they did have traffic, now their forum like a trickle of posts here and there...some may not admit to what I am saying, but times are changing, but not for the better of forums, as facebook, twitter, and other social groups
have taken forum traffic, and I am sure if you have a bigboard then you probably have lost some traffic yourself, if you are a good
forum, then maybe you have picked up some traffic, but overall, I bet you that people will report a loss of traffic rather then a gain in traffic, and its not all social networks either, people are finally growing up to figure out they can not get rich setting up a forum,
and some people finally realize this just isnt going to make me rich so I am getting out of the forum business, as I bet you that
if you asked 9 out of 10 people, then 9 people think they will make money setting up a forum. 99.9% of all forums fail. It
is very rare these days that a new forum will make it over to the bigboard side; I will not say it is impossible but very rare, and
once people do grow up then finally realize they are not going to be the next get rich forum, then they are out....

We used to use pay phones, now we use cell phones.

We used to use BBS/SLBBS - now we use VB/Internet
...and whatever happened to the creators of search light bbs?
evolution and the internet killed them...at the time, I am sure
we all thought BBS would be around forever, killed by DSL/Internet...
what will be the killer extinction of forums?

We used to use dial up, then we dumped AOL for DSL.

We thought VB 3.x was cool, then we are slapped with 4.0

We use forums now, now social platforms are here...

If this keeps going downhill, then it will be pointless to setup a forum altogether....

So yes, times are in-deed changing...and maybe not for the best....

[cpvrx]

When I first became an admin here, I went through this forum to reread the threads. You know what I found was interesting? Every year since the beginning, there have been threads just like this one.

Things do change. Some devs move on, or find real life takes precedence (get married, have kids, get a real job, etc.) and new ones move in. It changes constantly. I don't think that's bad or good, it's just the way it is.
Ya, the fact is through, this place isn't as active - some questions go unanswered and leaving the forum owner in the dust.

[BlackThorn]

vBulletin.org's still the same... I'll hope it is "vBorg" will better ^^

[Zachery]

The most active and contributing members of vbulletin.org/com may have accounted for a very tiny portion of of the license holders but they contributed to most of the activity here.

Unfortunately, some of the most brilliant minds of vBulletin.org started leaving 2 years back and this has been continuing ever since. Also the vb community has split and many have changed loyalties sometime back.

2 years ago? Try 6.

[onehost]

2 years ago? Try 6.

I can not tell you when people started leaving as I really did not start
paying attention until 3.8 went to 4.0 then i noticed a big change, and
lots of 4.0 coding complaints, still do. I could find a 3.8 coder/designer
just about at anyturn, now it is hard to find a coder for 4.0, and if you
do, then they are really expensive, and in the end...the code isnt the
same, the design just is not as cool as it was for 3.8...and I bet you
a number of people left around that time frame also...if VB lost support,
then this would have been the time to have lost the great number
of vb fans, and I could see people just moving on at this time...
design for v4.x just isnt cool for the most part...

[Arkham]

I can not tell you when people started leaving as I really did not start
paying attention until 3.8 went to 4.0 then i noticed a big change, and
lots of 4.0 coding complaints, still do. I could find a 3.8 coder/designer
just about at anyturn, now it is hard to find a coder for 4.0, and if you
do, then they are really expensive, and in the end...the code isnt the
same, the design just is not as cool as it was for 3.8...and I bet you
a number of people left around that time frame also...if VB lost support,
then this would have been the time to have lost the great number
of vb fans, and I could see people just moving on at this time...
design for v4.x just isnt cool for the most part...

Are you hitting <enter>
because you're worried
about falling off the edge
of the monitor?

Don't worry! You'll just
continue around the
other side!


;)

[Zachery]

I'm moderately sure I've said this a few times in the past so I am repeating myself but Its always good to remind people how things work.

vBulletin.org, like all communities goes though cycles, there are ups and downs, new people in and old people out.

There have always been shifts in coders here, coders leaving vB.org (or vBulletin even) for their own reasons. Some of these reasons were dislike of jelsoft policy, or vB.org policy. But everytime someone leaves, one or two new people showup to start their own work.

My only gripe is with how people leave, not why. If you want to leave for whatever reason, you shouldn't punish the users who have supported you by removing your addons. It only hurts them.

The reason for the decline as a whole in vBulletin.org is a gimmie gimmie attitude many users today have. Users today demand, instead of ask. Instead of trying they expect everything to be done for them when it comes to modifications. In the past it was a two way system. The users today outnumber the coders by a long shot. vBulletin.org used to be about coders, getting together, talking about and dicussing modifications. How they could do x y and z, etc. In the years after the plugin system, this drasticly changed. Users no longer had to get dirty with php code. They could upload a file and be done. The forced learning was gone. Now anyone who could download a file could use an addon. Before the plugin system, you had to at least be willing to look, read, copy, and paste and follow the instructions to the last letter. Other addon authors would use others addons, find problems and report them (high querys, bad practices, etc).

As great as the plugin system and everything that came with it is, its also hurt the community as a whole.

Sorry for the rant.

[borbole]

I'm moderately sure I've said this a few times in the past so I am repeating myself but Its always good to remind people how things work.

vBulletin.org, like all communities goes though cycles, there are ups and downs, new people in and old people out.

There have always been shifts in coders here, coders leaving vB.org (or vBulletin even) for their own reasons. Some of these reasons were dislike of jelsoft policy, or vB.org policy. But everytime someone leaves, one or two new people showup to start their own work.

My only gripe is with how people leave, not why. If you want to leave for whatever reason, you shouldn't punish the users who have supported you by removing your addons. It only hurts them.

The reason for the decline as a whole in vBulletin.org is a gimmie gimmie attitude many users today have. Users today demand, instead of ask. Instead of trying they expect everything to be done for them when it comes to modifications. In the past it was a two way system. The users today outnumber the coders by a long shot. vBulletin.org used to be about coders, getting together, talking about and dicussing modifications. How they could do x y and z, etc. In the years after the plugin system, this drasticly changed. Users no longer had to get dirty with php code. They could upload a file and be done. The forced learning was gone. Now anyone who could download a file could use an addon. Before the plugin system, you had to at least be willing to look, read, copy, and paste and follow the instructions to the last letter. Other addon authors would use others addons, find problems and report them (high querys, bad practices, etc).

As great as the plugin system and everything that came with it is, its also hurt the community as a whole.

Sorry for the rant.

I am glad to see that it is not only me who noticed the gimmie gimmie attitude many users have.

Just out of curiosity, when was the plugin system introduced in vb?

[Brandon Sheley]

Just out of curiosity, when was the plugin system introduced in vb?

3.5

to the OP, I just answered your question about the facebook buttons ;)

[Paul M]

Sorry for the rant.
No apology needed, much of what you ranted about I agree with. Todays members are vastly different to when I joined, and I know youve been here a few years longer.

[Boofo]

I agree 100% with Zachery. Good assessment. It's just not the same as it once was.

[Roms]

The plugin system changed a lot. Good and Bad... ;)

[Boofo]

I personally think the plugin system is better than sex! ;)

It does make everything a lot easier to code things for, but it also has made us lazy in some ways. More good than bad, though.

[borbole]

3.5


Thanks :)

[Zachery]

I personally think the plugin system is better than sex! ;)

It does make everything a lot easier to code things for, but it also has made us lazy in some ways. More good than bad, though.
Its great from an administrator standpoint, its horrible for the community at large.

When I started modding vBulletin in 02, I had to know how to do the following:
Edit html
Edit vBulletin php files
Debug my own html/php if I fubared an edit.
Run SQL queries.
Keep backups of my files/dbs before I started editing incase things went south.

[BirdOPrey5]

If I knew how to use the tracker on vbulletin.com I would put in the suggestion the plugin and hooks system be dropped for the betterment of the modding community.

[Boofo]

Its great from an administrator standpoint, its horrible for the community at large.

When I started modding vBulletin in 02, I had to know how to do the following:
Edit html
Edit vBulletin php files
Debug my own html/php if I fubared an edit.
Run SQL queries.
Keep backups of my files/dbs before I started editing incase things went south.

That was fine when there were fewer mods, but it made upgrading a royal pain. The one mod that makes full use of the products/plugins is probably the best mod that was ever written. You'd be surprised how many people still don't know about the Advanced Product Management mod. Everything is all in one place. That should be vb default as it would make getting around things a lot easier for the average user.
If I knew how to use the tracker on vbulletin.com I would put in the suggestion the plugin and hooks system be dropped for the betterment of the modding community.

That will never happen. Everyone seems to be going in the plugin direction now.

[Zachery]

I honestly believe there were more addons in the vB2 days due to less features. Sure upgrades weren't easy but it FORCED you to learn and understand what you were doing.

[Videx]

... upgrades weren't easy but it FORCED you to learn and understand what you were doing.I must disagree. I well remember the days of having to edit files manually to accomplish the littlest thing. But this didn't teach me PHP or anything else.

When I heard vbulletin had a nice plugin system in place, I switched to it. True, that leaves vb.org with a lot of members like myself that can't code their way out of a paper bag. But I'm not sure that's such a terrible thing. I mean, what's wrong with a user base that's willing to spend money for the features they want?

[Zachery]

I must disagree. I well remember the days of having to edit files manually to accomplish the littlest thing. But this didn't teach me PHP or anything else.

When I heard vbulletin had a nice plugin system in place, I switched to it. True, that leaves vb.org with a lot of members like myself that can't code their way out of a paper bag. But I'm not sure that's such a terrible thing. I mean, what's wrong with a user base that's willing to spend money for the features they want?

Thats not the core idea behind this website. In the past even if it didnt teach you PHP, you were willing to TRY and get your hands dirty. The important point here is try. There were still lots of users who didnt learn php, I am more or less one of them. I did learn basics, how to troubleshoot errors, repair my mysql tables, run queries.

The plugin system is amazing, in almost every way for administrators and sites. Its bad for vbulletin.org though.

[Paul M]

If I knew how to use the tracker on vbulletin.com I would put in the suggestion the plugin and hooks system be dropped for the betterment of the modding community.
Given the total lack of hooks being added to new code these days, you may get your wish sooner than you think.

[Zachariah]

Favorite Hack:
Plug-in System / Hooks

Been in my profile since vb 3.5, and still is :)

[Ziki]

I must agree with Zachery's point and also say that the decline of coders lies in the fact that most essential functions are already present in the default vBulletin product. This means that usually only specialized add-ons can be released and that not everyone is able to make use of that. This applies to the paid section as well. Before there used to be loads of request for a reasonable amount of money involved, which was beneficial for both sides. Now you rarely find such offers and it mostly consist of either very large projects (for which I don't usually have time) or smaller projects which are not worth the money that is offered. It's a shame but the plugin system really made people believe that coding is extremely simple and easy, so naturally, the actual price of your work went down as well. So coders leaving after this, is not really that surprising when you cannot make a living out of it.

I don't blame the plugin system at all, I love it, I blame today's society, thinking that the consumer can get everything for nothing nowdays.

[Boofo]

Not all of us that code are out to make a buck. If that is how you want to look at the org, then so be it. I think of the org a like a high school, where you go to learn before you make it out into the world.

[Ziki]

Sorry, guess that came out like that :) .No I don't look at vb.org that way, after all, I learned my first steps here as well :). All I wanted to say is that it's pretty hard to be fully active in coding while managing everything in real life, so being paid for it time to time, makes it more worth the while.

[Boofo]

I made up my mind a long time ago that if I ever coded anything for money, it would be too much like as regular job and then it wouldn't be fun anymore. Don't get me wrong, a donation here and there is a nice way for the masses to show their appreciation. I have yet to see that from anyone here as I think we have spoiled them with freebies for way too long. That is also part of the reason that some of the coders from the past have left, there was no appreciation from users, only expectations, and sometimes, out-right demands.

[Ziki]

Well yes, that was pretty much what I was trying to say. I don't agree with the first part though, I usually only apply for projects that actually seem like something I would be interested in doing, which in the end is kind of fun because you actually get appreciated for doing it :)

[Boofo]

Anytime money enters the coding equation here on the org, it is usually a preclude to trouble. Getting paid != appreciation, by the way.

[Ziki]

I didn't necessarily mean getting paid but that you know that someone will actually benefit out of it.

[Boofo]

Then we should keep money out of it and just got for the appreciation, right?

[kh99]

I've only been around a year or so, so I guess I probably don't understand what changes happened from the non-plugin version to the plugin system. Because it kind of seems to me like it shouldn't make that much difference - I think you still have to understand something about the code around the hook locations to do anything other than a few trivial things. When I try to figure out how to do something, I look at the code then look for hooks in the right places. To me it actually makes it harder than if you were to just insert code wherever you needed. Of course it makes it much easier to apply the mods and to upgrade, but that's not the same as making it easier to figure out how to code mods.

[Ziki]

Then we should keep money out of it and just got for the appreciation, right?

Oh come on, now you're just turning everything I say against me :p.

My current situation is that I do not have enough time during studying to code for free, so I usually only do paid jobs. It wasn't like that before and I hope to get back to doing new mods after graduation. But I guess I started a bit different topic here...

[blind-eddie]

I made up my mind a long time ago that if I ever coded anything for money, it would be too much like as regular job and then it wouldn't be fun anymore. Don't get me wrong, a donation here and there is a nice way for the masses to show their appreciation. I have yet to see that from anyone here as I think we have spoiled them with freebies for way too long. That is also part of the reason that some of the coders from the past have left, there was no appreciation from users, only expectations, and sometimes, out-right demands.

I too have seen many times members coming here and get down right rude to coders because they can't get whatever mod they downloaded to work the way they want & more or less demand that the coder make it the way they want...I think I would mark my mods Not Supported just for this reason.
Without this site & the coders that create the addons for vbulletin.....vbulletin would be ugly & empty.
Many people here need to realize this site is a gift.
I am not a coder, never went to school for any type of coding..hell, I didn't even know how to turn on a computer before 04'. I learned from this site & learn everyday. I do appreciate every coder here for the hard work they do for this community.
There is not enough money to cover the time each of you have spent creating add on's for vbulletin...:up: :up:

[FreshFroot]

Chen left vb.org years before IB ever came onto the scene.

Sorry I should've made it more clear. I wasn't saying Chen left because of IB.

He left before it, but when he left it was really the turning point of many great coders slowly moving on too.

actually, Chen left way before any good coder was there... rofl

ok i was in, Boofo and John were too, but hey, we were not legion.. lol

and now, yeap, most coders left... any generation of vB make a move in the list of coders, some will raise in the next months as there is new gaps to fill in the market.

Agreed.. those days were some of the best for vBorg

--------------- Added 1298947401 at 1298947401 ---------------

Not all of us that code are out to make a buck. If that is how you want to look at the org, then so be it. I think of the org a like a high school, where you go to learn before you make it out into the world.
Couldn't agree more.

I am personally a bit sicken when I see people stating "here is my cool mod, if you want more updates buy the pro version".

Personally, I think users should NOT be allowed to promote their products. I understand there is costs involved, but as a student myself. I do a lot of stuff JUST to learn or for others to learn or heck even for fun. As a student you don't get paid to do much of the work anyways...

So I agree it's more of a high school area, where your learning and sharing with others.

[8thos]

I've been posting on forums since 2001 but I'm new to being a webmaster. I have never noticed that there was a trend.

I do know that there are lot of people who don't like posting on forums because 'it's too much work, too hard'.

That's the complaint I get from people I invite from chat rooms or people who have never used a forum before.

I don't think posting on a forum is too hard. I just think people are getting more lazy.

Our education system failed us. Soon they'll be too lazy for twitter. We'll all be doomed then.

[Videx]

This thread is straying all over the place for no really good reason. The OP's point ("i posted a thread a week ago. i posted another thread almost 2 days ago, replied to 10 or more and couldn't even get a single reply to any questions or inquiries in any of my posts.") is often asked in different ways, but the answers are usually the same:

I didn't respond because I didn't know the answer.
RTFM.
I've seen that question asked and answered so many times I'm sick of seeing it; learn to search before you ask.
All the philosophy about plugins and forums and past members won't change those answers. And these days most of us won't dare to use answers 2 or 3 for fear our response will be misinterpreted as hostile.

[BirdOPrey5]

I know when I'm searching I find unanswered questions from 2006, 2008, and recently- so some questions have always gone unanswered over the years- not new.

[TheLastSuperman]

What's happened?

IMO plain and simple... many need to learn the definition of the word TACT, in the second sense - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tact

:cool:

[Boofo]

This thread is straying all over the place for no really good reason. The OP's point ("i posted a thread a week ago. i posted another thread almost 2 days ago, replied to 10 or more and couldn't even get a single reply to any questions or inquiries in any of my posts.") is often asked in different ways, but the answers are usually the same:

I didn't respond because I didn't know the answer.
RTFM.
I've seen that question asked and answered so many times I'm sick of seeing it; learn to search before you ask.
All the philosophy about plugins and forums and past members won't change those answers. And these days most of us won't dare to use answers 2 or 3 for fear our response will be misinterpreted as hostile.


That is caused by conditioning from the past years. It seems people get lazier the more time they spend here.

I know when I'm searching I find unanswered questions from 2006, 2008, and recently- so some questions have always gone unanswered over the years- not new.


And probably for very good reasons.

What's happened?

IMO plain and simple... many need to learn the definition of the word TACT, in the second sense - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tact

:cool:


I do agree that tact is a fine line that seems to get crossed now and then. You have 2 main types of coders here: those that remember when they were first learning to code, and those who can't remember a time they couldn't code.

[TheLastSuperman]

I do agree that tact is a fine line that seems to get crossed now and then. You have 2 main types of coders here: those that remember when they were first learning to code, and those who can't remember a time they couldn't code.

Very well said and I couldn't agree more!

[NickyDee]

Whats happened;

1.) Facebook and twitter has captured a lot of the micro-blogging (status update/tweets etc.) market and grown it in a different direction. Forums remain strong but more so in niche areas and are probably going through a bit of an identity crisis. Certainly in my opinion vB4 isn't quite sure right now whether its a forum, a blog, a cms, a profile/microblog, a social network or a mobile app. Because these were all internet trends at various times and vbulletin incorporated them (usually about a year down the line). But the end result works in a way that doesn't always unify each of them very well. It's a problem for all forum software not just vB.

2.) Web users have over the past 10 years slowly transitioned away from enthusiasts towards casual consumers and continue to do so. Not every casual consumer wants to spend hours participating in a forum helping to build up its content. If the content isn't already there they F-off somewhere else till they find what they want. This makes getting a forum off the ground quite a challenging enviornment these days. Gone are the days of "make the site and they will come".

3.) Some coders who used to work on websites and plugins have since transitioned to more profitable and/or developing areas like apps. vBulletin is a complex platform that doesn't immiediately make sense even to seasoned coders and the loss of some of the experienced hands has made the transition harder than it might otherwise have been.

4.) As vbulletin has grown and branched out lots of people have used it in different ways. It puts jelsoft in a position where moving forward in a decisive direction is very hard, because its bound to upset someones vision of what a forum should be.

[onehost]

2.) Web users have over the past 10 years slowly transitioned away from enthusiasts towards casual consumers and continue to do so. Not every casual consumer wants to spend hours participating in a forum helping to build up its content. If the content isn't already there they F-off somewhere else till they find what they want. This makes getting a forum off the ground quite a challenging enviornment these days. Gone are the days of "make the site and they will come".



Its more then just difficult, its almost close to impossible getting a forum off the
ground if you are in a niche that is already saturated. My forum has been up for at
least 6+ months, and I have spent a ton of money on advertising, article marketing,
paid posters, vb, vbseo, other paid mods....and when i look back, the only posts
that I really have are from the paid posters and that is about it....then I ask myself,
well, why would they want to come to my forum when they can go to forums that
have 1million+ posts...hell I would...so I am really in a catch 22....

then I have to ask
myself is this really worth it...for money? hell no...one of the first members that I did get
,maybe about 2 months ago, he has been the only regular member to my forum, until
the other day he starts insulting me, and telling me that my forum will never go anywhere...
ok, I think this dude is one of charlie sheen friends, maybe he is on drugs/crack/cola....
and I am pretty sure he only comes to my forum because he knows that I may buy some
of his themes/coding/graphics, etc...its funny how people will come around when you are
buying, but when the money dries up, opps, "I gotta be someplace else now...."

nobody really contributes anything to the forum. They have no problems creating self-serving
posts with 5 links within a very short post, then they complain when I remove them....
its like "Why are you removing my spam dude...."

What was I thinking....

[Boofo]

And that is why I set up my forum to what I want to see, without having to worry about what anyone else says about it. Once you start relying on it for an income, then the game changes and you have to start answering to others. Like most jobs, they aren't nearly as fun or rewarding as a hobby you enjoy participating in.

[onehost]

And that is why I set up my forum to what I want to see, without having to worry about what anyone else says about it. Once you start relying on it for an income, then the game changes and you have to start answering to others. Like most jobs, they aren't nearly as fun or rewarding as a hobby you enjoy participating in.

I am no where to relying on my forum to make money. I have put much more
into my forum then I expect to even see within the next 5 years, and seeing there
are forums that are already rooted in my market, then it could be much
longer; however, I would appreciate some traffic, and for people to repsect
me, and not jump down my throat because I will not dance to their tune....

I knew for a fact when I setup the forum, it would not be for money; however,
if i had done this like 10 years ago, then maybe it would be a different story....

I did ban the member, I will not tolerate or allow others to belittle or disrespect me.
Its not like he contributed anything to the forum, he only posted links to themes
that would have benefited him if he had gotten any traffic via my forum....

did i go to far in banning him? What would you do if one of your members comes
to you, insulting you, calling your forum trash, and so on....and he expects me
to buy his themes now? He must have been on some high end pot or something....
You do not do that to potential buyers, he is like killing his own business...

[zapiy]

I honestly have not seen an issue with the site just the users on it, most of you have already commented about TACT and the way regular member expect rather than would like...

For me i run an ever growing gaming site that needs to keep evolving and without you coders i am done.. I am guilty for just taking and not saying thanks often enough and from this point on i shall make it a priority, maybe others should follow suit..

[Xencored]

Most people have moved on to less* "buggy" forum software's :)

*small print
less meaning 900 less or more lmfao

[MagicThemeParks]

It's the cycles that forum (and other) sites go through. The new trends of social networking lend themselves to forums just as well if you can integrate things smoothly.

Some coders that do it for a living have gone towards Wordpress or other forum software and it is where they can make money for themselves and their families. Can't fault them for that.

Personally, I run sites on both vBulletin and xenForo for different reasons.

You shouldn't put your eggs all in one basket, right ;)

[FreshFroot]

It's the cycles that forum (and other) sites go through. The new trends of social networking lend themselves to forums just as well if you can integrate things smoothly.

Some coders that do it for a living have gone towards Wordpress or other forum software and it is where they can make money for themselves and their families. Can't fault them for that.

Personally, I run sites on both vBulletin and xenForo for different reasons.

You shouldn't put your eggs all in one basket, right ;)

I've done the same.. though I sold all my vB licences but one... And that is because my biggest forum uses vB and I don't see XF a viabile option to replace it with do to poor hacks on the market.

My other smaller forums have been converted to XF and I don't mind them. BTW I am using vB 3.8.7 not 4. I still think vB4 is terrible and a resource hog.

But I agree with you.. it's not always best to get ride of everything, though it depends on preference too. I have a connection with vB 3 series still. But I'm sure slowly I will adapt to the XF series.