vBulletin Suite vs. vBulletin

[vB.Org System]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohiosweetheart (Post 1764551)
Wait, just to be clear, members will not be able to purchase the blog and project tools separately, as they have been doing?

This is correct. Blog, Project Tools and CMS will not be distributed as separate products, but will be bundled with the vBulletin Suite.

In answer to some of the questions about this...

Why will these components only be available as part of the Suite?

There are two reasons for this change. The first is that with so many separate components, keeping them synchronized was unnecessarily inefficient from a coding standpoint. There's just too much engineering overhead to maintain them all on separate development tracks. And since we want to be able to develop quickly and get releases out to you more frequently, we made the decision to keep all components in sync as part of a single code base.

The second reason is that it provides much greater opportunities for tighter integration between the products, such as the ability to convert blog posts (or forum posts) to articles, to have forum discussions attached to CMS content, etc.

The whole idea is to make vBulletin better, faster, and these changes will help us develop new features more quickly. They will also help as we dive into the deeper round of rearchitecture with 4.1 and 4.2.

Does that mean I'll be running lots of extra code?

No. vBulletin runs only the code it needs for any given page load, so if you're not using a component, its code won't run and it won't impact the performance of the application.

Can I turn off components I don't want to use?

Yep, just turn them off from the Admin CP, and they'll be disabled.


More... (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313820&goto=newpost)

[DieselMinded]

what if you have blogs and forums installed now ? how do you upgrade them to the suite?

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Upgrades paths will be provided as we always have in the past.

[Morsolo]

vB4 is coming along nicely and I can't wait to see it, but one question comes to mind after reading this whole new "...bundled with the vBulletin Suite" idea.

Is the price of vBulletin going up now?

[Marco van Herwaarden]

The pricing for the vB 4 products will change from the current setup. More info will be posted on vB.com once the new pricing structure is final.

[Tim Skellett]

Well, as far as I am concerned, this all makes good sense. I won't be using the Project Tools, but I do use the Blog system, and a nice CMS is a definite plus, especially as a native application rather than third-party add-on. I see the reasoning behind the bundling, and it really does make sense.

As for price rises, correct me if I am wrong, but overall vB compares very favourably indeed with other commercial software in price/capability measures, and has kept price rises low. I will be looking forward to vB 4!

[cheat-master30]

Nice to see this get posted over here, although the first post is a great example of why vBulletin needs nested quotes back. But still, I'm going to assume the people that have the add ons would get an extra discount in some form, but there's nothing really official to comment on.

[Black Tiger]

Oh great (NOT!). I presume this also means a pricing change again?

[cheat-master30]

The pricing change stuff I think has been known for weeks now, if not months. It's been all over .com at least.

[Black Tiger]

No that is the pricing change for normal vBulletin licenses and price changes for updates. Those were known for months and are already long time effective.

I'm talking about these:
The pricing for the vB 4 products will change from the current setup. More info will be posted on vB.com once the new pricing structure is final.
And those were -not- known for months or weeks. At least these kind of announcements should be made by email to licensed users. Not everybody visit's the forums every week. I did not see anything in the announcement part of a rise.

I don't need all that other crap, and so do a lot of other people I guess. So there already was a price raise, and now we got another one.:(
And without the option to be able to only buy or renew only the forum software to version 4 if I understand correctly.
That is not the Lifetime!!! license I bought. I bought a lifetime forum license and I don't want to pay extra because some people in the office think they should put all unnecessary stuff to it which has nothing to do with a forum, like CMS, project, blog or whatever. Where is the legality on changing this lifetime license? My life isn't over yet. At least I hope.

I would like to see some explanation about that.
Because if I buy a windows license, Microsoft can't raise prices because they add a blog and a CMS and whatever. Remember the fine they got for embedding IE and Media Player?
I wonder.....

If that is all true, then where stays the client friendlyness of vBulletin.

[R1lover]

If you buy windows 98, and then XP comes out, you don't get to upgrade for free do you?

I know this is not the same and I'm not happy about it either, but you used a bad example lol

[cheat-master30]

No that is the pricing change for normal vBulletin licenses and price changes for updates. Those were known for months and are already long time effective.

I'm talking about these:

And those were -not- known for months or weeks. At least these kind of announcements should be made by email to licensed users. Not everybody visit's the forums every week. I did not see anything in the announcement part of a rise.



It was known for months. It was in the leaked information that got posted over half a million or so forums on that eventful day, and the information that's caused vBulletin.com to have people literally trying to sue Jelsoft in return. Okay, not much was discussion on .org, but .org's a modification community/developer community, not just support.



I don't need all that other crap, and so do a lot of other people I guess. So there already was a price raise, and now we got another one.:(
And without the option to be able to only buy or renew only the forum software to version 4 if I understand correctly.
That is not the Lifetime!!! license I bought. I bought a lifetime forum license and I don't want to pay extra because some people in the office think they should put all unnecessary stuff to it which has nothing to do with a forum, like CMS, project, blog or whatever. Where is the legality on changing this lifetime license? My life isn't over yet. At least I hope.



There's a forum only option for the license as is. I'd assume that would be either a cheap or free upgrade.

[Black Tiger]

If you buy windows 98, and then XP comes out, you don't get to upgrade for free do you?
That does not apply because you can't buy a lifetime windows license with free upgrades.:)
We don't pay for the upgrades, we pay for support.:D
So I did use the correct example, but you reply'd with a wrong example.;)

and I'm not happy about it either
I did not see anything change for the better either since the IPB takeover of vBulletin.....

to have people literally trying to sue Jelsoft in return
Without any luck I guess....

It was known for months. It was in the leaked information
Well that could be, but it was not in the announcement forum, it was not known to me and the millions or so forums it was on, did not belong to the forums that either a lot of my friends or myself visit.:)
I visit 6 forums, of which I administer 1, am admin on another, moderate 4. Next to that I have my work and my family so it's quite possible for somebody not to heave read this and still be very busy.

There's a forum only option for the license as is. I'd assume that would be either a cheap or free upgrade.
If this is indeed the case, nobody will here me complaining anymore about this for the time being. But in that case it would be nice if somebody from staff would confirm this.

[Boosted Panda]

If you buy windows 98, and then XP comes out, you don't get to upgrade for free do you?

I know this is not the same and I'm not happy about it either, but you used a bad example lol

No but Apple offers Leopard owners Snow Leopard for next to nothing ;)

[R1lover]

That does not apply because you can't buy a lifetime windows license with free upgrades.:)
We don't pay for the upgrades, we pay for support.:D
So I did use the correct example, but you reply'd with a wrong example.;)





ahhhhhhhhhhh but this is where you are incorrect again... when you bought win 98, you bought the license for it for life..... the life of the software.... and all updates to it. Although you did not buy a license to win xp so you can't. Windows XP is not an update to win 98, it's a new version.

See the picture now?

anyway this has nothing to do with this thread so I will stop now.

[Black Tiger]

See the picture now?
Yes I saw it before also, but I just don't quite agree, because with vB i have not only licensed updates but also all feature versions, at the price of yearly support, you see?:)
But it doesnt'matter. Next time I will find a better example.:D

[Phaedrus]

I dislike the idea that I purchased add ons that will now be obsolete, will my purchase of those add ons reflect in the pricing of the Suite license or will that be extra money just gone?

[defi]

Looks like I will be researching more into IPB. :)

[veenuisthebest]

I dislike the idea that I purchased add ons that will now be obsolete, will my purchase of those add ons reflect in the pricing of the Suite license or will that be extra money just gone?
Maybe or maybe not. Nothing has been announced officially yet.

[wolfstream]

I see the reasoning behind the bundling, and it really does make sense.
So, you're saying that you have no problem paying for something you're never going to use then?


As for price rises, correct me if I am wrong, but overall vB compares very favourably indeed with other commercial software in price/capability measures, and has kept price rises low. I will be looking forward to vB 4!
Historically, yes, vBulletin has been reasonable and kept very comparable. That was all before IB, however

If you buy windows 98, and then XP comes out, you don't get to upgrade for free do you?

Bad example, really. If you buy Win 98, and the sale states "all future versions of Windows will be free for 10 years", you get just that, Win 98 AND all future versions of Win. free for 10 years

I dislike the idea that I purchased add ons that will now be obsolete
As the owner of 2 forums with blog addons, I fully agree here 100%.


will my purchase of those add ons reflect in the pricing of the Suite license or will that be extra money just gone?
It really is a wait and see on that one, just like the "will my current licenses actually be eligible for what I purchased them for" question is a wait and see. Honestly, here's my 0.02 on the matter, and my own experience:

I have VBA CMPS in the system already, so, I'm effectively screwed. vBulletin CMS is way too late, and , honestly, there's no way in hell you're going to get me to redo 50-100 pages of CMS data JUST to get to a blog. That's a bit horrific.

Of course, staying with 3.x is an option, temporarily that is. Eventually, 3.x will run out of gas, become vulnerable, then what? What option do I, the user have then?

Whomever thought up the idea of two products (one cms+all, one bare), and no addon modules clearly has no marketing or development experience. How do you justify telling your users "I'm sorry, but we no longer respect your purchase"? Huh??

[solidlink]

So my qns is .......... will the current owners of VB license and VB Blog license be entitled to upgrade for free until their license expires?

[R1lover]

Bad example, really. If you buy Win 98, and the sale states "all future versions of Windows will be free for 10 years", you get just that, Win 98 AND all future versions of Win. free for 10 years




Show me where the agreement says that vb is for x amount of time and where it says future versions free for a time any time frame.



and IPB does have a test site you can use and play with, I setup one up tonight and was very impressed.

[Tim Skellett]

So, you're saying that you have no problem paying for something you're never going to use then?

No, actually. What I said was that I am quite happy with the overall bundling, even though there are features that I won't use.

You can see it as me being happy paying for things I won't use, if you like, but that's inaccurate. What I am not happy with is the long extended flame-war about vB; it's a very decent product with a great community and great modification possibilities, for quite a low price compared to other comparable software.

Historically, yes, vBulletin has been reasonable and kept very comparable. That was all before IB, however

Can you point to some massive price rise in vB which should make me disatisfied and feel like I'm getting a raw deal? So far, it's all only pure speculation, isn't it?


Bad example, really. If you buy Win 98, and the sale states "all future versions of Windows will be free for 10 years", you get just that, Win 98 AND all future versions of Win. free for 10 years

Except of course Windows has never stated ""all future versions of Windows will be free for 10 years", and vBulletin has never stated ""all future versions of vB will be free for 10 years".

So your objection doesn't make much sense to me.

I have VBA CMPS in the system already, so, I'm effectively screwed. vBulletin CMS is way too late, and , honestly, there's no way in hell you're going to get me to redo 50-100 pages of CMS data JUST to get to a blog. That's a bit horrific.

I understand your frustration, but I think you're overly exaggerating the difficulties.

vB are under no obligation to look after the interests of third-party add-on sales; vB's obligation is to its own customers and its own software.

Of course, staying with 3.x is an option, temporarily that is. Eventually, 3.x will run out of gas, become vulnerable, then what? What option do I, the user have then?

Equally, you could stay with Windows 3.11 and never never pay a cent for upgrades. Your choice.

You cannot blame Microsoft for coming out with Win98, and Win2000, and WinXP, and charging more for them though.

Whomever thought up the idea of two products (one cms+all, one bare), and no addon modules clearly has no marketing or development experience. How do you justify telling your users "I'm sorry, but we no longer respect your purchase"? Huh??

I disagree with your conclusion and your views. As simply another vB customer.

And I've bought now-obsolescent third-party add-ons too. I was one of the first to buy vBlogetin and install it; and now it's defunct, and vB have their own blog system. That's how the cookie crumbles, and I see no reason for me to +++++ about it; I've had a pretty fair deal overall on most things vB and vB-associated.

[JakeS]

So... in theory, I wasted my money buying blog & tools? :D

[Black Tiger]

Show me where the agreement says that vb is for x amount of time and where it says future versions free for a time any time frame.
That's easy. From the vBulletin license agreement:
The license is effective until terminated (Owned License)
Now show me where it says future versions are not free?
At the time I bought my license, there was mentioned that it was lifetime and there was something about upgrades in there as far as I remember. Or I must be terribly wrong.
Could also be this was mentioned in a pre-sales question thread.

[R1lover]

Well it doesn't say they will give you a free corvette either but it's not happening... lol

[Black Tiger]

Correct, but if it would be limited to 1 version, it should state so, and it doesn't. So in a legal way, you are entitle to all versions for the license you have bought.

[Chimpie]

If you feel that whatever action vB takes violates your agreement with them, then you're free to take them to court.

Me, I'm looking forward to the release of vB 4.0 Suite!

[wolfstream]

Show me where the agreement says that vb is for x amount of time and where it says future versions free for a time any time frame.
If you buy something , the seller is legally bound to stand by the sales description, or contract, no? Of course they are.
All you have to do is upgrade (or extend) your license to see the description which states that you will continue to have access to the members area where you can download future versions of vBulletin, while this is current.

I don't know the exact wording, they will no longer (obviously) allow people to renew over a certain period of time (ie: if you have more than a year on the license left, you have to wit till just under a year) to do it, but as of a few days ago, that's EXACTLy what it said. The same goes for the blog:


This is a one-time fee that provides access to Blog software versions (via the members' area) while the linked vBulletin license remains valid and active.

So, somewhere, IB is planning on royally screwing their customers.




You can see it as me being happy paying for things I won't use, if you like, but that's inaccurate. What I am not happy with is the long extended flame-war about vB; it's a very decent product with a great community and great modification possibilities, for quite a low price compared to other comparable software.

LOW price? Are you kidding me? $200 is a "low price"? For $200, I can get software to run my entire computer, two of them even. Low price?? That's hardly the case



Can you point to some massive price rise in vB which should make me disatisfied and feel like I'm getting a raw deal? So far, it's all only pure speculation, isn't it?

Not speculation at all. If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, that's ok, but it's certainly not speculation. Since IB has taken the product over, they've done nothing but raise prices, fire staff (or cause them to leave) and act unprofessional, tearing the vBulletin name apart. At one time, it was a great name, now it's just garbage, because of IB.



Except of course Windows has never stated ""all future versions of Windows will be free for 10 years", and vBulletin has never stated ""all future versions of vB will be free for 10 years".

You're not understanding the example, and that's just fine. No, you're right, windows has never stated that, but vBulletin HAS. Not in that exact wording, of course, but in the sales contracts that IB/Jelsoft MUST honor.


You cannot blame Microsoft for coming out with Win98, and Win2000, and WinXP, and charging more for them though.

I certainly can, if microsoft said "you get these versions free during your upgrade period", which is exactly what IB has stated.



So... in theory, I wasted my money buying blog & tools? :D

We don't know that exactly, but the likelyhood is pretty high that, yes, that is the case. We do know that work on external stuff (blog, PT) has ceased, we do NOT know what they plan on doing with those of us dumb enough to believe IB's lies (and yeah I said US, I'm in that group as well).

[Black Tiger]

If you feel that whatever action vB takes violates your agreement with them, then you're free to take them to court.
As long as there is also a vb4 forum only option, there is no problem at all.

It would however be the decent way, to give people that already bought the addons, to give the Suit without having them to pay extra. But about that we have to wait until more news is coming to us from Jelsoft.

At one time, it was a great name, now it's just garbage, because of IB
I wouldn't go that far. Because vBulletin still has it's great name, still is the best forum software around and support is great. But that is to be expected for the price we are paying.
Because I agree with your other arguments.
About good people leaving or being fired, not being cheap etc.

I also look forward to v4 out of curiosity, but people should not act as if it's a cheap software product and things are all fine while the complete company is being rearranged and even the accouncement discussion forum is closed, making it less possible to let the clients know what they think of changes.

One should be a bit more realistic, even if one is a fan of vBulletin software.

The biggest problem at this moment is a lack of communication on Jelsoft's behalve. Price changes should be known already if v4 Suite is coming that soon.
People should be better and earlyer informed by them about changes and things which stay the same.

At this point there is no way of saying if the changes are for the better or worse, we can judge about that after a while of experience with the new owner, but at this point I agree it isn't looking all to good. But that does not prove it's indeed going bad, we have to wait and see. But there -must- be communication.
And the biggest error yet is that there is too much lack of communication. It takes too long and there are too many uncertainties.

[Tim Skellett]

If you buy something , the seller is legally bound to stand by the sales description, or contract, no? Of course they are.
All you have to do is upgrade (or extend) your license to see the description which states that you will continue to have access to the members area where you can download future versions of vBulletin, while this is current.

And once again you are exaggerating. Again, this is simply not the same as your first implied claim and example that they gave such access for "10 years". Conditions can change, get over it. What you have not shown at all is actual evidence of vB screwing its customers.

So, somewhere, IB is planning on royally screwing their customers.

Meh, pure speculation on your part. When you have some real evidence, present it. Otherwise, you're simply demanding I should be dissatisfied just because you are, and my heart bleeds for that.

For $200, I can get software to run my entire computer, two of them even. Low price?? That's hardly the case

Wow, you can get a PC OS. Hey, you can get Linux for free. Whoopidoo. We're talking commercial board-forum software; you're trying to compare apples with oranges.

Not speculation at all. If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, that's ok,

Quite frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. Get over it. I'm a satisfied customer of vB, and I do tend to regard all commerce with skepticism, so I also judge vB with skepticism. But not with meaningless dramatics. You're simply trying to demand others be dissatisfied as well, without giving any good reasons as to why we should be dissatisfied, just a lot of emo and speculation.

[R1lover]

I think you must have missed the information that was posted from vb, it keeps getting pulled, but you can find it if you look around.

There were a few things that have made some people very upset. Read it and then make an informed decision.

[wolfstream]

Conditions can change, get over it. What you have not shown at all is actual evidence of vB screwing its customers.

Firstly, once the sale is already made, terms can not change. BOTH the seller and the buyer are bound by those terms. The problem is that sellers try to weasel their way out of this any way possible, and many succeed because of ridiculous lawyer types that basically point out loopholes.

Secondly, you need to be more informed before you jump on the "vBulletin isn't screwing it's customers" bandwagon. It has been made very public that there will be an upgrade fee, we're just waiting on the 'how much'. That would be fine, if the renewals didn't currently (and previously) state that you'd have access to members area for downloading of future versions of vBulletin for x amount of time.



You're simply trying to demand others be dissatisfied as well, without giving any good reasons as to why we should be dissatisfied, just a lot of emo and speculation.
I don't really care if you're dissatisfied or not. In fact, if you get ripped off, hey, so much the better as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes that's what it takes to get people to wake up, see what's really going on and take action.

The reason is given, you just have to actually do your own research and be informed, not bury your head in the sand and pretend it aint coming.


we can judge about that after a while of experience with the new owner

You are aware that IB isn't exactly a "new owner", right? It's been over two years (http://mashable.com/2007/07/10/vbulletin-acquired-by-internet-brands/), or probably just around 1/5th of vB's lifetime (not sure the exact date vB started), so not so much a new owner.

Since IB took over:
First price hike in years (last year). Not by much, so it was ok. They didn't break contracts, so, again, it was ok

Leaked information (good or bad, we don't know, it could all be a publicity stunt)

Failure to address said leaked info.

Closure of beta testing (good or bad, again, we don't know, and won't know until 4.x comes out)

2nd price hike . As proposed, it's a $15 hike for purchased forums (no leased forums available, as rumored)

Complete abandonment of contracts re: previously sold applications (ie: blog, PT, vB, etc)

I'm not sure how much more it would take for IB to turn vB into "garbage", but they're pretty much well on their way to it.

[Morsolo]

As long as there is also a vb4 forum only option, there is no problem at all.

I doubt that will be an option. I would love this option; as I have ZERO interest in any of the addons Jelsoft supply for vBulletin, I just want my FORUM SOFTWARE.

What my reasoning is, is that because the addons are no longer purchasable separately, then there can't be a "forum only" version. Otherwise, what if you wanted to upgrade? Would you have to pay an ENTIRE new fee for for "full version", or is there an "upgrade to full version" option. If the latter is the case, then, technically we can still buy the addons separately.

That is, in addition to the fact Jelsoft has always ever only had 1 license, not multiple versions. You pay for one license and get one version of vBulletin.

...All I can say is, vB4 better be DAMN good, or I'm going to IB.

[Trip]

From what I gather there will be a forum only option. From what I've read, there will be two options. One will be only the forum software, the other will be what they are calling the "suite" which included the forum, blog, project tools, and the new CMS.

[Black Tiger]

because the addons are no longer purchasable separately, then there can't be a "forum only" version.
Why not? They could make a vBulletin and a vBulletion Suite option. With vBulletin als the forum only option. They don't need to sell the addons seperately this way.
But it would make things a bit more difficult for them. But I also got the same impression that Trip got, that there would be 2 versions. Lack of communication about that is the problem again here.

You pay for one license and get one version of vBulletin.
Nope. You pay for one license and you get vBulletin forum software, end of story.
As long as you pay for renewing your license (which was "renewing support" in the old days) you are entitled to every future version. So not "one" version of vBulletin.

I've always been a satisfied customer of vBulletin, but we have an agreement, and they can't force agreements around so people have to take things they don't want.
VB was always forum software. Blogs, Projects and CMS has nothing to do with a forum.

I'm not sure how much more it would take for IB to turn vB into "garbage", but they're pretty much well on their way to it.
Is it already 2 years again? Phew, time is flying. Anyway, some of your arguments are not facts yet. There is beta testing? I've read somewhere people had the possibility to give them selfs up as betatesters of v4.
The 2nd price hike is not a fact yet. I've only seen one as a fact and that is the price hike from last year, in which all prices went up.

Still... the rest is true. But we can stay guessing as long as Jelsoft does not take the time, show some client friendlyness and stop some of the worry's of their clients by COMMUNICATING! As was done before.
Now there is the big silence. Maybe they use the thread to see how many law suites or leaving customers they can expect, i don't know and i don't care.
This is no way treating your customers.

There is no need to say everything, but they can give some reassurance or answers about a few things. Don't wait with the new pricing stuff until v4 is available, because then you are too late as a company.

[Morsolo]

Why not? They could make a vBulletin and a vBulletion Suite option. With vBulletin als the forum only option. They don't need to sell the addons seperately this way.
But it would make things a bit more difficult for them. But I also got the same impression that Trip got, that there would be 2 versions. Lack of communication about that is the problem again here.

I go on to say that if they have this "forum only" version, that then there must be an option to somehow "upgrade" to the full suite, in which case you're only paying for the addons, which, in turns is pretty much purchasing the addons separately.

Nope. You pay for one license and you get vBulletin forum software, end of story.
As long as you pay for renewing your license (which was "renewing support" in the old days) you are entitled to every future version. So not "one" version of vBulletin.

I've always been a satisfied customer of vBulletin, but we have an agreement, and they can't force agreements around so people have to take things they don't want.
VB was always forum software. Blogs, Projects and CMS has nothing to do with a forum.

When I said "get one version of vBulletin", I didn't mean the physical build number. I meant one TYPE of vBulletin. As in you paid for the license and got VBULLETIN. I don't want to pay for the license and have to choose between EITHER vBulletin or the vBulletin Suite; it was never how Jelsoft operated.

As for the rest, as I just demonstrated (haha) - lack of communication is a problem, and it especially sucks on the internet.

However, I don't want to say it; but I'm sure many agree... This is just some cheap tactic for Jelsoft to throw the prices up and say "but you're getting more" as a morale compensation for themselves that they've effectively ripped a majority of their customers (who don't use Blogs/Project or whatever) off.

[cheat-master30]

If you buy something , the seller is legally bound to stand by the sales description, or contract, no? Of course they are.
All you have to do is upgrade (or extend) your license to see the description which states that you will continue to have access to the members area where you can download future versions of vBulletin, while this is current.

I don't know the exact wording, they will no longer (obviously) allow people to renew over a certain period of time (ie: if you have more than a year on the license left, you have to wit till just under a year) to do it, but as of a few days ago, that's EXACTLy what it said. The same goes for the blog:


So, somewhere, IB is planning on royally screwing their customers.




LOW price? Are you kidding me? $200 is a "low price"? For $200, I can get software to run my entire computer, two of them even. Low price?? That's hardly the case



vBulletin is not expensive. If you honestly think it's expensive, you have no idea what expense can actually be. I wrote about that here:

http://dsultimate.net/Board/upload/blog.php?b=332



vBulletin- $430 plus server costs
UBB Threads- $694, $598 or $725 depending on package
Mes Discussions- $3450 (plus server costs?)
Community Server Enterprise- $120 000
FuseTalk.NET- $4998 possibly plus
FuseTalk- $4998 (wow, same!)
Groupee- $1800 shared server, $35928
Jive- $299700 minimum, and for 4 CPUs, $778500 dedicated server
Lithium- I really don't want to know, way too high

That's not the vBulletin 4 pricing for vBulletin, but still. There are many types of forum software that cost nigh on 500-1000 dollars EACH, and yet people claim vBulletin is expensive. Invision is the same general price as vBulletin. Etc. Sure, many people online apparently have this 'expect everything for free' mentality, but vBulletin is no way an expensive piece of software.


Secondly, I think way too many people are panicking about this. They've not figured out their upgrade path yet, but I'd be very surprised if people were going to have their license someone destroyed without any real reasoning or major change or whatever. Even worse is the amount of people who assume Internet Brands will charge full price of the software for the vBulletin 4 upgrade, even though that's nowhere stated to be the case.



Not speculation at all. If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, that's ok, but it's certainly not speculation. Since IB has taken the product over, they've done nothing but raise prices, fire staff (or cause them to leave) and act unprofessional, tearing the vBulletin name apart. At one time, it was a great name, now it's just garbage, because of IB.



It's not garbage. It's currently better than practically any other forum software out there. I don't personally agree with most of Internet Brands and their decisions personally, I have no affiliation with them, and I certainly don't think they generally run their forums that well (based on a study of many of them and their declining activity levels I did a few weeks back), but vBulletin to be fair is probably their BEST managed property of all those they've listed on their website. vBulletin does seem to be getting new features and value brought to it. The software's certainly not dying or been torn about like some of their other properties.



We don't know that exactly, but the likelyhood is pretty high that, yes, that is the case. We do know that work on external stuff (blog, PT) has ceased, we do NOT know what they plan on doing with those of us dumb enough to believe IB's lies (and yeah I said US, I'm in that group as well).

I don't think work on those has stopped entirely, it's just being somewhat postponed to work on things people actually care about, like vBulletin 4 and the CMS. Most customers certainly don't care too much about the Project Tools.

[Black Tiger]

@Cheat-Master30: I think you have to go and have a look again.
UBB threads has a bit different pricing.
Standard license 199 dollar
Silver (5 year updates) 499
Lifetime 725 lifetime updates for free!

But this does only proves that UBB is expensive, as it always has been.

Mybb - Free
Phpfusion - Free
PhpBB (with good support) - Free
And if we go and have a look at commercial forums you smartly let out the new owners of Jelsoft, being IB.
And an IB forum license costs..... correct... 149 dollar!

So vBulletin is not the most expensive, but it certainly is also not cheap software.
And Wolfstream never said vBulletin was expensive, he said it was not cheap and he is correct.
IB is cheaper, windows XP and Vista are cheaper (yes you got a complete OS for that price), WHMCS is cheaper. That does not mean vBulletin is expensive, but it isn't cheap either. I see it as "middle of the road" priced, almost against the border of "a little bit expensive".

I agree with you that it is not garbage either. It's progressive and support is great, no problem there.
But you must agree that they should know better then do a major change (building a suite now) without proper communication way in advance, about what it's going to be and how people who bought the addons already, get compensated. That's a lack of communications which is now (together with the sudden price rais last year without proper communication in advance) damaging their name at this point.
Count that to the fact that people get fired or major contributors like Mike and Kier leaving, you will have users that get afraid that Jelsoft is sliding down hill.

And that's the problem, and the bigger problem is dat Jelsoft does not give any reaction, making people think their thoughts and maybe rumours are true. People get worried.

[TWood]

* vBulletin- $430 plus server costs
* UBB Threads- $694, $598 or $725 depending on package
* Mes Discussions- $3450 (plus server costs?)
* Community Server Enterprise- $120 000
* FuseTalk.NET- $4998 possibly plus
* FuseTalk- $4998 (wow, same!)
* Groupee- $1800 shared server, $35928
* Jive- $299700 minimum, and for 4 CPUs, $778500 dedicated server
* Lithium- I really don't want to know, way too high

Thanks for that, and the article in your link. I've been wondering about those so-called 'enterprise' level products and whether I should be considering them for an upcoming project. You actually got a price for Jive, which is a feat since their site is mostly an endless loop of marketing superlatives. Now I see why.

I bought licenses for both vBulletin and IPB so I could test them out. It turns out that vBulletin has a critical feature that I need, so that's the route we'll take. Happy it can take on the task.

In my license agreement there's a line that says:

Jelsoft reserves the right to modify these terms at any time.

That really should end all this sturm und drang. :rolleyes:

[Black Tiger]

That won't end the sturm und drang.:)
Terms are something else as license agreements.
In Dutch we say Algemene Voorwaarden and Licentie. They are quite different things.
Terms are the terms on which support and thins are delivered. A License agreement determs what the license contains and that is a contract which can't be changed ad any time like terms can.;)

[cheat-master30]

Thanks for that, and the article in your link. I've been wondering about those so-called 'enterprise' level products and whether I should be considering them for an upcoming project. You actually got a price for Jive, which is a feat since their site is mostly an endless loop of marketing superlatives. Now I see why.

I bought licenses for both vBulletin and IPB so I could test them out. It turns out that vBulletin has a critical feature that I need, so that's the route we'll take. Happy it can take on the task.

In my license agreement there's a line that says:



That really should end all this sturm und drang. :rolleyes:

There's a lot of discussion on why people aren't taking that line seriously. Something to do with laws in certain regions, there's a lot more information on the vBulletin.com licensed customer forum.

As for any experience with Jive or Lithium... not positive. For Jive, it's got a reputation (well deservedly) of being way behind the curve in terms of features and forum design. For Lithium... it's got stuff like security issues and what not, considering I've seen forums using it have to block words like '.cgi' and '.pl' because the HTML allowed format was causing problems. And how easy it was to screw up the page with some sneaky HTML posting...

@Cheat-Master30: I think you have to go and have a look again.
UBB threads has a bit different pricing.
Standard license 199 dollar
Silver (5 year updates) 499
Lifetime 725 lifetime updates for free!

But this does only proves that UBB is expensive, as it always has been.

Mybb - Free
Phpfusion - Free
PhpBB (with good support) - Free
And if we go and have a look at commercial forums you smartly let out the new owners of Jelsoft, being IB.
And an IB forum license costs..... correct... 149 dollar!

So vBulletin is not the most expensive, but it certainly is also not cheap software.
And Wolfstream never said vBulletin was expensive, he said it was not cheap and he is correct.



The point I was making though is that it's cheaper compared to a lot of competitors, and more expensive compared to others. Your mileage may vary on how 'cheap' vBulletin is considered for you, but it's not exactly some highly priced product, and Invision aren't their only competitors.


But you must agree that they should know better then do a major change (building a suite now) without proper communication way in advance, about what it's going to be and how people who bought the addons already, get compensated. That's a lack of communications which is now (together with the sudden price rais last year without proper communication in advance) damaging their name at this point.
Count that to the fact that people get fired or major contributors like Mike and Kier leaving, you will have users that get afraid that Jelsoft is sliding down hill.

And that's the problem, and the bigger problem is dat Jelsoft does not give any reaction, making people think their thoughts and maybe rumours are true. People get worried.

Jelsoft has never really been a greatly 'here's our roadmap for the next [time period]' company. It's not like Internet Brands is making the communication worse, more likely slowly improving a communication problem that's been going for years. I never heard anyone was fired either, everyone who's gave a reason gave it as a voluntary leaving, or in the case of Floris, part voluntary and part health problems related.

[edytwinky]

Will the current version of blogs work with vb 4.0?

[R1lover]

no ...........................

[Black Tiger]

The point I was making though is that it's cheaper compared to a lot of competitors
I don't think you can talk about competitors in this case, because their prices and probably also their company goals are in a complete other league then vBulletin.
Probably most of us did not even hear of those other company's. Obviously with idiot prices as a couple of thousand dollars. They get maybe only big company users with that, if any.
You can't compare that with vBulletin, which is more in the league of UBB threads, IB and the free ones.

Jelsoft has never really been a greatly 'here's our roadmap for the next [time period]' company.
Obviously because there was no need, they obeyed their license agreements and nothing much (policy and pricing related) changed until IB stepped in. But they did communicate in time about things that did matter. Or in any case react to rumours, to take worries away buy customers which they don't do now.

And it might al be voluntary leaving (sorry to hear about Floris health), but they don't leave al voluntary for nothing all of a sudden and all together.
Where's smoke there's fire somewhere is a well known Dutch saying. They must dislike a lot of things also but are probably bound to "don't communicate about the company" contracts.

I'm a fan of vBulletin, but now I'm worried at least. And already stated arguments about what was going on the last years, the pricing and the leaving of key members, closing the announcement discussion forum (making customers mouthdead) and the lack of communication doens't do any good.

We again have to hope that things will come out ok and this will be the last of the big changes. Instead of there is decent communication, because you know as good as I do that they exactly know what will be the case, what wil happen, what versions and which costs.

[hotwheels]

Well i just left a post or two at vbulletin.com and i will post one here too. This is a bunch of crap. Vbulletin 4.0 can be purchased seperately. But for those that purchased the vbblog and didn't want the vbulltin project toos crap, you will now be forced to purchase a suite which will consist of vbblog, vbproject tools, and vbCMS. If you want to continue to use your blog with vbulletin, you are going to have to stay with the vbulletin 3.8 and the last vbblog update 2.02.

Although there isn't anything any of us can do about it, it still pisses me off that vbulletin.com's project tools was a failure, the blogs almost a failure, and the cms will really be a failure since most people use vbadvanced or phpportal cms software, and now if i want to continue using the updated versions of vbblog, i have to purchase the suite that is full of garbage. Some that have new sites may benefit from this, but my site has been up for a few years now and i personally can't afford to pay for vbulletin.com's problems over software nobody wants.

Heck, i just paid a 30% rate increase for my vbulletin yearly renewel, which was fine. But i am going to loose my blog system now, do to vbulletins bad business practices.....If people at this point don't believe the suite set up, go to vbulletin.com and read the post on this. They don't even have the decency to make it an announcement. You will just find that your next renewel letter will have a huge increase and the sad announcement that you can no longer use your blog system, unless you pay the blackmail rates...........

And please, don't tell me to calm down......I have every right to be pissed as many of the other user's of vbulletins software. Pure and simple, this is a bunch of crap.

[cheat-master30]

I don't think you can talk about competitors in this case, because their prices and probably also their company goals are in a complete other league then vBulletin.
Probably most of us did not even hear of those other company's. Obviously with idiot prices as a couple of thousand dollars. They get maybe only big company users with that, if any.
You can't compare that with vBulletin, which is more in the league of UBB threads, IB and the free ones.



I don't see how these higher priced pieces of forum software aren't in the same league of vBulletin. Okay, maybe they're in a worst league than vBulletin, but still. Remember though that there's still a lot of examples of forum software in the $200 to $500 range, which is only slightly more than vBulletin and in the same market. phpBB, SMF and MyBB are probably not really that comparable, at least in that one or more of them seems to be very much 'we'll add exactly what we want rather than what users want'. IPB, that's in about the same league as vBulletin though, but to be fair, vB doesn't have to match or beat their prices to be popular.




Obviously because there was no need, they obeyed their license agreements and nothing much (policy and pricing related) changed until IB stepped in. But they did communicate in time about things that did matter. Or in any case react to rumours, to take worries away buy customers which they don't do now.



I don't recall them reacting to rumours much in the past. That might also be because some of the development team left, the support team who's still there can't really comment much on things they themselves probably don't know much about.



And it might al be voluntary leaving (sorry to hear about Floris health), but they don't leave al voluntary for nothing all of a sudden and all together.
Where's smoke there's fire somewhere is a well known Dutch saying. They must dislike a lot of things also but are probably bound to "don't communicate about the company" contracts.



Possibly, but I'd say not to panic, wait for vBulletin 4, try it, and if you don't like it then, it's a good time to switch to whatever competitor, ala IPB 3.



I'm a fan of vBulletin, but now I'm worried at least. And already stated arguments about what was going on the last years, the pricing and the leaving of key members, closing the announcement discussion forum (making customers mouthdead) and the lack of communication doens't do any good.

We again have to hope that things will come out ok and this will be the last of the big changes. Instead of there is decent communication, because you know as good as I do that they exactly know what will be the case, what wil happen, what versions and which costs.

To be fair, the announcement forum closing went with the Licensed Customers forum opening, which is basically the same as announcements discussion but more so. Well at least more so of the complaining, fights and hysteria that would have gone in announcements discussion.

Note: I'll be very honest, I'm hardly ever bothered by this kind of stuff because many, MANY companies I buy products from or generally respect have about the same policy of 'when it's ready' as Jelsoft, and respond about as much to people asking about rumours.

[hotwheels]

Note: I'll be very honest, I'm hardly ever bothered by this kind of stuff because many, MANY companies I buy products from or generally respect have about the same policy of 'when it's ready' as Jelsoft, and respond about as much to people asking about rumours.It's not a rumor, http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1766328&posted=1#post1766328 Read their entire post.

[Black Tiger]

Possibly, but I'd say not to panic, wait for vBulletin 4, try it, and if you don't like it then, it's a good time to switch to whatever competitor, ala IPB 3.
I'm not in panic or whatever, I'm just worried as hell that Jelsoft is going down the drain.
I already said that to me there was no problem if there still would be a vb4 only forum option. I'll just go on with that.
I'm just pissed at the way things are going now, also for people who already have bought the addons. It doesn't matter to me that I don't have them. I'm pissed about how they are handling their clients. And worried about the effects of that.

[Sweeks]

I am not happy with this unless they are able to offer the upgrade to us for a very nice discount. The blog system alone is all we need on our forums and the rest would never be used so a discount for not wanting nor needing them would be good.

[gamerfu]

No but Apple offers Leopard owners Snow Leopard for next to nothing ;)You forget Apple Leopard OS cost more than Microsoft Windows OS or any Linux distro. :D

[Boosted Panda]

You forget Apple Leopard OS cost more than Microsoft Windows OS or any Linux distro. :D

Leopard is $129.

Windows XP Professional is $199.

[wildweaselmi]

I always have to support streamlining but I am a bit worried about the CMS being included. I prefer using Joomla as my CMS as it is (in my opinion) the strongest CMS on the web. I utilize JFusion to sync users from vBulletin to Joomla so my users are logged into both no matter which login module they use (joomla or VB). Now with VB having there own CMS bundled in I sure hope it doesn't break my Joomla connection.

As for the Windows versus Apple debate, my two cents on the subject and I use both.

Apple machines cost more but they last longer (no squeaks, crashes, overheating, requirements changing for new operating systems) so quality versus quantity.

Apple Operating System cost compared to Windows is really a question on which version of Windows are you comparing it to. Unlike Windows, you buy the Apple operating system and you have everything you need. With Windows, you have to pay a whole lot of money for the Premium package which compares to Apple with iLife or you buy the basic version which is a tad less expensive then the Apple OS but you don't have anything.

Some comparisons found here (http://www.mywiseguys.net/forum/showthread.php?p=175#post175) between what you get with Windows versus Apple

Of course I prefer Apple Mac OS X because it doesn't crash, no spamware, adware, and few viruses which equals a faster running operating system built on a unix (linux-debian) operating system which is the same O.S. as what we used in the Air Force to maintain our most secure and most reliable network for the Armed Forces Globally. Windows machines had very little responsibility because they were and are not trustworthy on staying operational 100% like we found with linux,unix and apple.

[Brandon Sheley]

I'll say the same thing I said on my site and vb.com
I purchased the vblog and it looks like I wasted my money on it
I'll never use the pos project tools, or their cms and now if I want to upgrade the blog, I'll have to pay for those worthless scripts

well, it looks like I'll never upgrade the blog

what a shame, bad move IB #epicfail

[wildweaselmi]

I am hoping the vblog will improve (hopefully dramatically) in version 4. The current version 3 is a first step towards something greater.

I'm not sure if it will better but I am sure hoping it is. The current version is so clumsy and difficult to use but I love the idea of using a blog with vbulletin.

MyBlog component in Joomla is soooo much better and is a desire to reach something like wordpress or blogspot or like the many CMS components and modules out there that show you what a blog should be able to do.

I'm not giving up on vblog but I am really hoping for a better vblog in version 4.

I agree projects is a waste of my money. I would be surprised to see many people use this. Currently projects appears to be focused on code versus actual Projects. Again, if it followed a leader of Project software like Microsoft Project or even a more powerful Merlin application.

[cheat-master30]

I'm not in panic or whatever, I'm just worried as hell that Jelsoft is going down the drain.
I already said that to me there was no problem if there still would be a vb4 only forum option. I'll just go on with that.
I'm just pissed at the way things are going now, also for people who already have bought the addons. It doesn't matter to me that I don't have them. I'm pissed about how they are handling their clients. And worried about the effects of that.

There is a vBulletin 4 forum only option. That's the non suite version of vBulletin 4.

[Black Tiger]

Yes I know that, but that doesn't change things about how they are handling their other clients who bought the addons, and the lack of communication.

[smartkidbk5]

Sorry I tried to read the posts but couldnt find a solid answer. I get how they are bundling it now, but...

Will I have to buy vB4 now? Even though I have a currently active license witch entitles me for free vB updates for 1 year?

[webuser00]

I think this is a good move for vB!

cheers

[Trip]

Sorry I tried to read the posts but couldnt find a solid answer. I get how they are bundling it now, but...

Will I have to buy vB4 now? Even though I have a currently active license witch entitles me for free vB updates for 1 year?

That seems to be the million dollar question. I don't believe anything official has been announced. From what I've read and pieced together it looks like if you want to upgrade to 4.0 you will have to shell out some cash. How much remains to be seen. Looks like vB is doing away w/the leased licenses too. Only offering an owned license in either "forum only" or "suite" (forum, tools, blog, CMS) form. Again, this is just what I've read and may not be at all true. But I think if you wanted to ride out 3.8.3 for awhile without upgrading to 4.0 you should be able to do so without any additional cost (imo).

[gamerfu]

Sorry I tried to read the posts but couldnt find a solid answer. I get how they are bundling it now, but...

Will I have to buy vB4 now? Even though I have a currently active license witch entitles me for free vB updates for 1 year?Why does everyone keep saying "FREE"? It is not free udates for a year, it is a PAID subscription you have purchased for product updates for a year. :cool:

[hotwheels]

Is it just me or did vbulletin.org pull the announcement from the home page? To me, that was a pretty major announcement and people that have a paid license to even participate on this website should have the right to see that. Not have it hidden so people can't see the real vbulletin.com direction. Why is vbulletin.com and vbulletin.org trying to hide this announcement? The only thing that isn't for sure at this point is price, Ray morgan's decision has already been made at this point, you can buy vbulletin forums software, and a vbulletin suite (blogs, project tools, cms). Things are about to change quickly for many of us and it should have been left as an official announcement on the main home page. I realize that i don't pay for membership for vbulletin.org, but in order for me to participate here, i have to have proof that i am a licensed owner of vbulletin.com forum software.

And you are right gamerfu, it isn't free updates, we pay for the updates. Nothing is free with vbulletin.com. Only stuff that is free are mods from the great coders of this site. They are willing to share some of their hard work with us, so that many of us can have a very functional vbulletin forum.

Other members should seriously take the time and read the announcement over at vbulletin.com. I would put a link to the address but i am sure that paul will delete it, so that people can't start voicing their opinions to the new company that owns vbulletin.com.

[Lynne]

Is it just me or did vbulletin.org pull the announcement from the home page?
The announcements on the front page are pulled from the News and Announcements forum. The announcement from Ray about vb and the suite are in the Official vB.com Announcements forum which doesn't get posted on the front page.

[hotwheels]

What? Didn't you see it on the front page? That is how i found the announcement. It had rays (vbulletin.com) announcement, a link to the announcement on vbulletin.com.....as well a a link to this post. I mean no disrespect, but that announcement was on the home page, and was there as an official announcement. I would put money on it that it was removed to help silence the anger towards the announcement.

Now it is gone and members will not know that vbulletin.com is about to take them to the bank. The link should still be shared for all to see.

[Lynne]

What? Didn't you see it on the front page? That is how i found the announcement. It had rays (vbulletin.com) announcement, a link to the announcement on vbulletin.com.....as well a a link to this post. I mean no disrespect, but that announcement was on the home page, and was there as an official announcement. I would put money on it that it was removed to help silence the anger towards the announcement.

Now it is gone and members will not know that vbulletin.com is about to take them to the bank. The link should still be shared for all to see.
Yes, I saw it on the front page. Marco made a post a couple days ago about a problem with the rss feed and how things got out of order - that is when it got moved off the front page. I'm not gonna search out that post on dial-up.

If people want to read vb.com news, then they best place to get it is at vb.com. I'm pretty sure they don't come to vb.org just to get vb.com news.

[hotwheels]

It's all good, i deleted my blog system and all of the mod's i had installed with it. Sadly, i just found out i can't sell it, so i have to eat the $50.00 bucks i spent to purchase it. Hopefully though, the new vbulletin4.0 will be worth the wait and the extra money they are going to start charging us for it. Maybe a bunch of ajax options, that would be awesome.

[gamerfu]

does this mean vb.org is going to be disconnected from vb.com? :(

[HMBeaty]

does this mean vb.org is going to be disconnected from vb.com? :(
No.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

The vB.org frontpage should show news and announcements of vBulletin.org.

Announcements from vB.com are duplicated into this forum, but vB.com is the place that publish them and it is their task to bring news under the attention of their customers. Filling our frontpage with the news of "another site" only pushes the vB.org announcements away from ou own frontpage.

Members can still read them, either in this forum or on vB.com.

[hotwheels]

What? 90% of the news that crosses the front page of vbulletin.org is from vbulletin.com. How do you think i always find out about the newest vbulletin software? Allot of times i see it here before i recieve it via email.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Then from now on you will need to:
- Read the news on vB.com
- Read the news in this sub-forum on vB.org
- or subscribe to 1 of these forums.

[hotwheels]

wowza, very sorry to get you upset. I was just commenting on past practices. I will, from now on wait for my email updates from vbulletin.com. It was however, nice to be able to just stop by here and see important updates/announcements.

[The Smoking Gun]

Trip Originally Posted by smartkidbk5 https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/external/2011/11/11.gif (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?p=1856859#post1856859) Sorry I tried to read the posts but couldnt find a solid answer. I get how they are bundling it now, but...

Will I have to buy vB4 now? Even though I have a currently active license witch entitles me for free vB updates for 1 year?

That seems to be the million dollar question. I don't believe anything official has been announced. From what I've read and pieced together it looks like if you want to upgrade to 4.0 you will have to shell out some cash. How much remains to be seen. Looks like vB is doing away w/the leased licenses too. Only offering an owned license in either "forum only" or "suite" (forum, tools, blog, CMS) form. Again, this is just what I've read and may not be at all true. But I think if you wanted to ride out 3.8.3 for awhile without upgrading to 4.0 you should be able to do so without any additional cost (imo).

I am no expert but, as mentioned previously, that clause to reserve the right to change any part of this agreement at their discretion, and with out notice, cannot apply to previous licensee's agreements, or the actual terms that were a condition at the time of purchase, so only new licenses, and possibly renewals of non owned licenses can be affected this way, but whatever the terms of the license was when purchased, must be honored for the entire period the license is valid, in this case, lifetime, with that in mind, should they decide to apply this to less than one year owned licenses, and those recently renewed annually for upgrades under the existing terms and conditions, if taken to court for a determination, they would stand little chance of winning or have much of a legal leg to stand on.

So if there are any attorneys out there that can either validate this or prove it wrong, please post so we all can make intelligent decisions and not waste money because a company takeover decided it wants more money for upgrades some are entitled to with out charge, just because they did not anticipate the state of economic affairs when starting this project nor how the competition has responded to this dissent in the vBulletin communities.
Making many less experienced forum developers, cautious about spending their money on this not knowing if it will be worth it as compared to the relatively cheaper and OS options out three with almost as many plug-ins, add-ons and features.

My four cents!
TSG!