modification graveyard problem! gettin real annoyed now

[GoTTi]

im getting sick of the graveyard thing now...

having a lot of mods installed on my forum, like most users, we tend to try and keep up with newer mods that come out, and like to remove/uninstall previous mods that are either out dated or moved to the graveyard, BUT what if we dont have the original zip file install any longer? well i wouldnt know what files to delete or templates to edit if i cant GET the ORIGINAL file now would i? and if the releasing modder is not answering pm's, what am i suppose to just accept that? NO! we all know removing a mod by uninstalling it with the plugin isnt always the only way to go, so vb.org needs to come up with a better way of managing mods being dumped in the graveyard.

my suggestion: if a mod is being moved to the graveyard and there are users that have it installed, be a little bit more courteous and before closing the mod out, reply to the mod thread and give DETAILS ON WHAT EXACTLY NEEDS TO BE DONE TO REMOVE THE MOD!!!the reverse of the install directions would be a nice thing to read once in a while incase we dont have the original files or zip file or whatever we might have had to install the thing. so posting the files needed for deleting, template edits needed for removal, and the plugin needed to be removed would be REAL helpful for us forum admins trying to stay up to date with current releases.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Yes it would be nice if the authors left uninstall instructions. But you would be in the same problem if you had installed an older version of a modification that have been overwritten with new versions.

Bottom line is that you are yourself responsible to keep the documentation (and if needed install files) secured on your own PC or elsewhere. You can never trust that something you once downloaded anywhere on the internet to be available forever.

[GoTTi]

Yes it would be nice if the authors left uninstall instructions. But you would be in the same problem if you had installed an older version of a modification that have been overwritten with new versions.

Bottom line is that you are yourself responsible to keep the documentation (and if needed install files) secured on your own PC or elsewhere. You can never trust that something you once downloaded anywhere on the internet to be available forever.

but we arent the ones putting mods in the graveyard. the team here is. so if whoever decided to do so, atleast post the information as to what we need to do to uninstall the mod, files to delete, so we know what to do.

its not about responsibility to keep records. stuff happens like accidental deletes, viruses, crashes of hard drives, so on. and we rely on the data here sometimes to guide us back. its not about having the authors leave instructions on uninstall, its about the person moving a mod with installed users to the graveyard and putting the uninstall procedure in the first post so the installed users can remove the thing on their end JUST IN CASE the file is deleted from the installed users side. its common courtesy and a procedure that should be implemented here without question or argument.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Modifictions are mostly moved to the graveyard because the author wants to to have it deleted, mostly author already removed any files, so in most cases staff can not do anything.

[GoTTi]

yes i found this out, why i have this post here: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?p=1752066#post1752066

i know modders do request it to be junked, but there are mods ive had installed that were dumped by staff, and i had to contact the modder by pm and wait days to get a response and not always get the info i needed, and it made everything harder. this option i am submitting is one that should be implemented if a mod is placed in the graveyard. if its by request of the author, than you guys should make the author detail the uninstall procedure before the files are dumped.

maybe changing permissions allowing original authors to delete their zip files here, i dunno. however it works, but its something that needs to be done. im sure there are alot more posts and concerns about this kind of issue on here.

[nexialys]

actually i answered you request for support on this hack.

most of the few maniacs here have all versions of all hacks released here, just wait a little so you can have support on these old graved stuff...

what you suggest was already debated, but due to the fact that all the releases here are applyed of the same copyright, the authors really have to give-over the products to someone else if you want support and followup... making them abandonware would change things, but it's not in the logic of a commercial product.

[Paul M]

As Marco said, almost all mods go in the GY for one of two reasons.

1. Author request.
2. Security Issue.

I would say that well over 90% are for reason 1, and in most cases (like the mod you mention), the files have already been deleted. It is not the job of staff to inspect every modification that is moved, see how its installed etc, and then provide uninstall instructions (even if we could).

[Chadi]

I agree with Gotti. I've had this issue a few times. It doesn't kill for the author to leave a note why it was moved to the GY and how to uninstall it, while keeping the original downloads there. There is no harm in doing this.

[nexialys]

the problem is not the note, it's the author's choice to give no note.... you can't control everybody's mind in that topic...

[Lynne]

It would be nice if the author would post the uninstall instructions prior to deleting the product, but in every case where I have moved a mod to the graveyard due to the product being deleted, there has been no note left by the author at all.

[Chadi]

An easy way to resolve this issue is do the following:

1. Remove author's ability to delete files unless its a security related risk/issue which if I'm not mistaken, usually vb staff removes the file first (?)
2. Force them to leave note upon request to move mod to graveyard, like a fill-out-a-form procedure so to speak and minimum character description (note) required so they can't just type jibberish just to complete the process.
3. Force requests to go into moderator queue for vb staff to validate first (not sure if this is already part of the process)

[nexialys]

with that much rules, nobody else will take the time to retrieve their hacks from the dB or send them to the graveyard, they will simply abandon them... which is not better because there will be a bunch of abandonned stuff with no support or bugs in the dB.

[Paul M]

We are not going to force members to do anything, nor will we remove an authors ability to delete files. vB.org is not an installation/removal service, we are here to host/provide modifications, it is upto authors to provide instructions as they see fit, and installers to make sure they keep records of any such details.

[GoTTi]

we dont need to force users to do anything, but as far as deleting mods/attachments of the zip files, it should be soft deleted not perm deleted, that way if these issues do come up a staff member can simply provide the simple uninstall information. it CAN be done.

really getting tired of alot of ideas we throw @ the vb.org site not being taken up on, and the backlash we get from staff members here like we are shmucks for either deleting a zip file or whatever. like i said before, its not about whats up to a installer to keep records of whatever stuff they do, STUFF does happen like hard drive deaths or formats or accidental removal of data, and we cant get that information back. we are the paying members here. we validate our licenses, pay the yearly fees to jelsoft. vbulletin.org is networked with vbulletin.com license system for the reason to keep legit paying members here and have a orderly system, so there is no reason why things cant be changed to assist the paying customers with slight issues like this.

[Chadi]

In agreement with you Gotti. Any ideas we CUSTOMERS share get shutdown as if we do not matter. There is mostly a 'holier than thou' attitude here.

I've been treated like crap a few times by certain staff members here. My ideas rejected as if I were a fool. I've been corrected unfairly at least once for something that was not my wrongdoing.

I reported this a while back to VB com, what do they do? Make lame excuses on behalf of some staff as if VB headquarters has nothing to do with vb org or no control over their own networked site.

[nexialys]

we are the paying members here. we validate our licenses, pay the yearly fees to jelsoft.

hum, what does have to do with vB.org ?! you did not pay to have access to THIS site... that's known fact that the company have nothing to do with the site here, so why follow a commercial-like support when the site was always about fans...

btw, i do not share the idea, just stating the known fact!

[Chadi]

hum, what does have to do with vB.org ?! you did not pay to have access to THIS site... that's known fact that the company have nothing to do with the site here, so why follow a commercial-like support when the site was always about fans...

btw, i do not share the idea, just stating the known fact!

That's not a fact at all. If this site had nothing to do with the offical VB site, then it would not be able to link to their database to confirm if the person is an actual customer. THAT'S a fact!

I don't recall any "fan site" out there that can easily have access to an official site's database like that.

Its best you do your research first before just saying whatever you want.

http://private.dnsstuff.com/tools/whois.ch?ip=vbulletin.org&email=on

How ironic? They just happened to be using the same nameservers as well.

Registrant:
Internet Brands Inc

909 N Sepulveda Blvd
El Segundo, California 90245
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: VBULLETIN.ORG
Created on: 14-Jun-00
Expires on: 14-Jun-13
Last Updated on: 11-Feb-09

Administrative Contact:
Knapp, Matthew mknapp@internetbrands.com
Internet Brands Inc
909 N Sepulveda Blvd
El Segundo, California 90245
United States
3102804000

Technical Contact:
Knapp, Matthew mknapp@internetbrands.com
Internet Brands Inc
909 N Sepulveda Blvd
El Segundo, California 90245
United States
3102804000

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.JELSOFT.COM
NS2.JELSOFT.COM
NS3.JELSOFT.COMhttp://who.godaddy.com/WhoIsVerify.aspx?domain=vbulletin.com&prog_id=godaddy
https://who.godaddy.com/WhoIs.aspx?domain=vbulletin.org&prog_id=godaddy

Nameserver records returned by the parent servers are:

http://www.intodns.com/vbulletin.org
ns1.jelsoft.com. ['209.62.16.134'] (NO GLUE) [TTL=86400]
ns2.jelsoft.com. ['74.52.166.146'] (NO GLUE) [TTL=86400]
ns3.jelsoft.com. ['74.52.82.226'] (NO GLUE) [TTL=86400]

http://www.intodns.com/vbulletin.com

Nameserver records returned by the parent servers are:

ns1.jelsoft.com. ['209.62.16.134'] [TTL=172800]
ns2.jelsoft.com. ['74.52.166.146'] [TTL=172800]
ns3.jelsoft.com. ['74.52.82.226'] [TTL=172800]


Hmm. Not the same company still? Same IP, same server, same nameservers, same registrant and mysterious user database access to vbulletin.com from this site.

I guarantee you anything a staff member, probably Paul will either erase this post or lock this thread. You've done that before Paul, shutting us up as if we were loud dogs.

[Revan]

This site is hosted, and the domain is paid for, by Jelsoft. However, the staff here are not employed by Jelsoft, nor are they in any other way official spokespersons for Jelsoft or its parent company.

There might be some staff on vBulletin.org that are also employed by Jelsoft, but if that is the case then they are paid to answer support tickets on vBulletin, and moderate this place in their space time.

Now please, stop being silly and realise that you have to take some responsibility yourself, instead of wanting your hands held all the time.

[GoTTi]

this site is the same as the .com. it was made to house the start of the modifications, thats all. if it wasnt for the paying customers, then we wouldnt have to validate our license here to make ourselves seem legit, just so we can download mods on here that people supply for free.

everyone is supposidly a volunteer here, im sure no1 would come out and say "ya i get paid". thats not the point. the point is, we pay jelsoft, we come here for the mods, we validate ourselves as paying members in a system linked together, our request for things should be taken into consideration.

[Chadi]

This site is hosted, and the domain is paid for, by Jelsoft. However, the staff here are not employed by Jelsoft, nor are they in any other way official spokespersons for Jelsoft or its parent company.

There might be some staff on vBulletin.org that are also employed by Jelsoft, but if that is the case then they are paid to answer support tickets on vBulletin, and moderate this place in their space time.

Now please, stop being silly and realise that you have to take some responsibility yourself, instead of wanting your hands held all the time.

So just because you disagree with most of us here, you feel the need to stoop low and insult us by telling us we're silly and need hand holding? You speak for yourself, not the rest of us.

I have nearly 100 mods installed including basic template edits, simple file uploads, once step plugin upload, to more complex mods thereafter. I don't need hand holding nor am I silly for asking a simple thing, to retain original mods when moved to graveyard.

What does the author even lose if they do not delete the files upon moving to the graveyard? Seriously, where is the harm on their part?

[nexialys]

Seriously, where is the harm on their part?

i've taken-back some of these abandonned hacks lately, and i can tell you that the coders who i contacted always had some strange stories to tell... some even had fights on this site so they were frustrated enough to delete everything and leave... it's not always harm on their part, it is usually because there is some situation...

and yet, i'm not on a side or the other... there is a lack of balance somewhere, sure... point out the real solution is complicated.

[TomJames]

Wow, suprised that the staff here aren't at least acting as if they'll listen to the argument, you don't have to act, but pretend you care about what we have to say.

Anyway, I think the suggestions earlier in the thread make sense, if a moder wants to /ragequit because they've been in an argument the least they can do is leave a note on how to remove their application. I mean I'm sure there were some people who installed it who were perfectly nice and helpful, they don't deserve to be left stuck because the moder /ragequit'd.

I understand that all the moders here work really hard, and I think everyone here appreciates that, at least most of us do. I also think the decent moders here wouldn't mind an extra two - three minutes of work if they choose to remove their mod. I doubt anyone here is malicious enough to want to leave their users stuck in a messy situation.

[Chadi]

I for one am more than appreciative and grateful for their hard work. While I won't boast about my offerings, a handful times I have made donations, offered donations for a little extra help and requested paid modifications a good number of times. I take no one for granted. In return, some consideration for our work we put into our forums is only understandable.

It kills to even see that such a simple request as retaining the original download files has to go back and forth as if its a mind boggling, complex situation. But it isn't.

I wish I had a good example to give to compare this with, but my brain is exhausted and my mind is overwhelmed with other things now to sit here and spend another second debating with staff members who treat you like crap and make excuses after excuses while others continue to claim vb org has nothing to do with the offical VB company or site.

[Lynne]

I don't know why you are saying we aren't listening, I know I've read this thread and listened to the arguements. I understand the frustration of the OP. However, I don't think you guys understand that many times a mod is moved to the Graveyard after it is noticed that the developer deleted the files. Sometimes they are nice enough to delete the files and then report the post to tell us to move it to the graveyard, but often the files are just deleted and we find out some other way that the mod no longer has any files attached.

It is impractical to not allow the developer to delete the files because very ofter there are fixes/upgrades to the original mod and it gets confusing to have a non-working version and a working version attached to the thread. It's also impractical to demand that all developers supply uninstall instructions in the thread. They won't do it. They'll simply not release their modifications if there are too many rules. And, try telling the unpaid mods that they are required to download a mod and figure out how to uninstall it just so they can move it to the graveyard (on the off chance that the product file was left behind)? Well, um, I know I won't be asking for that promotion.

I would suggest keeping a copy of all the modifications you download on your harddrive, somewhere on your server, and also on the offsite place you put your backups. And, when you backup your computer documents, backup your vbulletin files also. If you do this, then hopefully you have it covered. (And with gmail allowing so much space, email them to yourself also if you think all four of those methods could fail at the same time.)

[Chadi]

Thanks for following up Lynne. You're the nicest person I've dealt with within the staff, appreciate your humble spirit about you.

You do make good points about saving locally, even Gmail. Unfortunately, in many cases its too late for a good portion of mods that have already been wiped out and moved to the Graveyard. So there's no going back on those.

As far as this goes:

It is impractical to not allow the developer to delete the files because very ofter there are fixes/upgrades to the original mod and it gets confusing to have a non-working version and a working version attached to the thread.

We're talking solely about graveyard. When a mod is move there, the files should be kept intact for reference purposes. It has nothing to do with overwriting the old version with a new one. Just graveyard itself, with the last uploaded version of the mod.

It's also impractical to demand that all developers supply uninstall instructions in the thread. They won't do it.

I personally do not care for that myself since you'd expect the install instructions to be included in the zip file, or inline in the thread itself so you can just reverse those. Simple.

They'll simply not release their modifications if there are too many rules

No reason to add rules in the plural sense. Just a rule: keep the mod files when moving to the graveyard, or have deletion requests soft-deleted, or just request deletion placed in queue. Latter is probably more work, but I don't understand why any mod author should let their personal emotions get in the way of others (at least based off some of the defense comments mentioned in this thread).

On a side note, some of the staff should stop lying about not being affiliated with the official company. We're customers and we're not brainless. We can connect two dots together. In the end, it is Jelsfot's responsibility to get their act together and stop slamming down customers ideas and making excuses for everything that comes their way. I won't even get started on my own experience.

[Paul M]

On a side note, some of the staff should stop lying about not being affiliated with the official company. We're customers and we're not brainless. We can connect two dots together. In the end, it is Jelsfot's responsibility to get their act together and stop slamming down customers ideas and making excuses for everything that comes their way. I won't even get started on my own experience.

Who exactly are you calling liars ?

The situation has been made quite clear to you, the domain is owned by Jelsoft - the server we run on is provided by Jelsoft. The staff are not Jelsoft employees (except for Marco, who is our link to Jelsoft). Calorie now also works as a support person for them, but that has nothing to do with her moderating duties here.

You are NOT paid customers of this site, vb.org is completely free, no one has paid a single penny to join this site. Also, as has been made clear to other members in the past - throwing tantrums wont make the slightest difference to whether something gets implemented or not.

[Adrian Schneider]

Just a side note here...

If we pay for licenses, and this site requires a valid license to view, then it's at least my opinion that are paying to access this site. As a developer, I know the only reason I renew my license is to hang around here and chat / help out.

I wouldn't call the situation clear at all, because of
1) Marco's presence,
2) the requirement of a license, and
3) it being an official site.

It seems like it's only official site or affiliated with Jelsoft when promoting vBulletin.

[Shelley_c]

Just a side note here...

If we pay for licenses, and this site requires a valid license to view, then it's at least my opinion that are paying to access this site. As a developer, I know the only reason I renew my license is to hang around here and chat / help out.

I wouldn't call the situation clear at all, because of
1) Marco's presence,
2) the requirement of a license, and
3) it being an official site.

It seems like it's only official site or affiliated with Jelsoft when promoting vBulletin.

Exactly what are you saying siradrian. Let's say my license ran out tomorrow I wouldn't have access here (let's say) to support the contributions I released here?

[Adrian Schneider]

As far as I remember the answer is no. Honestly if this is the case, I am not renewing it again, so let's hope my memory is off!

[Shelley_c]

Thanks for the info Siradrian. I'd appreciate a response from the staff on this.

[nexialys]

It is officially the case. The engine update your licensed access each hour, so yes, when your license is ended, your access to the downloads is ended too... you can be aware of that easily, each month we can read here and there some users who ask why they stopped being able to download...

btw, the vision is different from my personal 2¢...

it is more secure to have license verification on a coder's side of things. i would hate to code for non-clients... leechers, pirates... by seeing that the "Paid Services Requests" are filled only by licensed clients is good, because we, as coders, are secured to work for clients, and not working for pirates. ok, that does not protected us from scammers, but hey, we have 1 scammer for 200 clean coders...

btw, why isn't there a debate about this site's status on vb.com, where the guys come from? they are the only one to be able to make a statement on the status of vb.org... beside Marco here, i think nobody can really make a commercial statement on the legit "official" appreciation that everybody know about.

oh, and btw, Shelley, cute avatar!

[Shelley_c]

It is officially the case. The engine update your licensed access each hour, so yes, when your license is ended, your access to the downloads is ended too... you can be aware of that easily, each month we can read here and there some users who ask why they stopped being able to download...


Is that actually a fact? Or are you simply speculating. I won't have access to my own submissions? Support them, whilst the pirates here are able to do as they wish with them and I cannot do anything about it except sit and watch.

To me this benefits only a few select people. I have to pay for a renewal to support my contributions which I provided for free. I call that taking the piss, I've never used vb.com support ticket system so I'm paying for nothing as well as providing (like with thousands of contributors) to this site on the thoughts it was free and not based on access per renewal running out.

Jelsoft know I have a license, what is a renewal got to do with accessing my stuff here when they have my license credentials in their system. This means this site isn't actually free.

I'm assuming this only applies to leased licenses and not owned licenses or does this apply to both?

Id like to be corrected here but this is news to me.

[Dismounted]

We're talking solely about graveyard. When a mod is move there, the files should be kept intact for reference purposes. It has nothing to do with overwriting the old version with a new one. Just graveyard itself, with the last uploaded version of the mod.
As stated by those before me, modifications are mainly moved into the graveyard for two reasons:

Security Issues
Author's Request

On a security issue, we cannot keep these modifications in "circulation". You will have already seen the many threads about how [licensed] members try, but cannot download modifications from the graveyard. Using your suggestion, members will download and install these modifications, therefore opening up their boards to exploits.

Also, you have to understand that we do not own any modifications. The copyright is kept with the author at all times. If the author retracts their permission to allow vBulletin.org (as a distribution medium) to redistribute their modification(s), we must remove these to be able to be downloaded. (IANAL)
[...]
AFAIK, as long as you have a valid owned license (expired or otherwise), you will retain your status as "licensed". However, if you have an expired leased license, your status will revert to "unlicensed".

[Shelley_c]

As stated by those before me, modifications are mainly moved into the graveyard for two reasons:

Security Issues
Author's Request

On a security issue, we cannot keep these modifications in "circulation". You will have already seen the many threads about how [licensed] members try, but cannot download modifications from the graveyard. Using your suggestion, members will download and install these modifications, therefore opening up their boards to exploits.

Also, you have to understand that we do not own any modifications. The copyright is kept with the author at all times. If the author retracts their permission to allow vBulletin.org (as a distribution medium) to redistribute their modification(s), we must remove these to be able to be downloaded. (IANAL)

AFAIK, as long as you have a valid owned license (expired or otherwise), you will retain your status as "licensed". However, if you have an expired leased license, your status will revert to "unlicensed".

That's not a definite answer Dismounted. I'd appreciate a more concrete answer from someone that does know. My question still stands.

[GoTTi]

Exactly what are you saying siradrian. Let's say my license ran out tomorrow I wouldn't have access here (let's say) to support the contributions I released here?

Shelly, if you paid the big bucks for the owned license and the year is up, your still active here. if you have the cheaper license, and a year passes and you dont renew, your access here goes byebye.

[Dismounted]

That's not a definite answer Dismounted. I'd appreciate a more concrete answer from someone that does know. My question still stands.
https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=1205545&postcount=6

Concrete enough? :p

[Shelley_c]

https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=1205545&postcount=6

Concrete enough? :p

No. That reply was made 2 years ago dismounted. Amendments could have been made since then. A response from you marco please. I'm guessing (seeing as we all seem to be doing this) that a response is needed by a jelsoft employee rather than volunteers who are doing just that guessing.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

That statement is still correct, nothing has changed regarding license status.


About paying for vB.org/vB.com access: Your purchase includes only 2 things: The use of vBulletin software for the duration of your license, support using the ticket system.

The use of both vB.com & vB.org is free and is not included in the purchase. This does not mean that we will not make certain areas of our forums only available to licensed members.

[Paul M]

a response is needed by a jelsoft employee rather than volunteers who are doing just that guessing.
A response from a Jelsoft employee is not needed - no guesswork is involved - your little digs at the staff here are as tiresome as ever. Nothing has changed, if it had then an announcement would have been made.

[GoTTi]

yall wanna educate him on memberships try and take it off my thread here. lets stay on topic.

there has to be a way for you guys as staff to be able to do what we are asking. the files dont have to be deleted off the server is a author deletes it. they can be retained in your DB and viewable by the mods and staff only. so if a mod needs to goto the graveyard, and the author decides to remove it, he wont see the zip file any longer, but you guys will have that zip file in history so you can easily extract it just to see the uninstall information or install information and give us the reversal. its such a easy think to implement that will save us alot of time and headache

[nexialys]

that's what we would call a steal. vb.org is just "hosting" releases, they are not the ones who produce them so they can not control their distribution... people have to understand that, and it's way beyond your need to be informed of the install/uninstall process... it's about ownership... people don't care as i see... you are not coders(or you do not care about copyrights).

[Andreas]

the files dont have to be deleted off the server is a author deletes it.
They have to :)
After all, all those Add-ons/Codes released here are intellectual property of the respective authors; neither Jelsoft nor vBulletin.org staff does hold any rights on it.
So if the author decides to remove all files that's solely his decision really and has to be respected.

vBulletin.org staff is not responsible for you not keeping track of your installed modifications.

[nexialys]

ok, you bought a Commodore 64, 25 years ago... the model was still on the market when you bought it, so you thought it would be just great to buy some games for it, and all the possible extensions.

now, you want to use your commodore again, but the joystick is broken... you call at the shop you bought your machine, and they refer you to the Commodore HQ for pieces and service. They say they can not help, and that you will have to go to a flea market to find an old machine for the pieces...

You whinne, you complaint, you fill a grief, and they turn back the regular answer: we can not help, we do not support the engine for 24 years already, sorry...

i personally think they would not let any discussion go after 2 pages of a thread, nor 25 threads in the last year...

so why do you continue?

... and yes, my example is flawed... just apply it as you wish

[Regs]

Would it be possible/plausible to add another setting to the mod submission process that specified "uninstall instructions"? This would be similar to the supported setting.

The instructions could then be added as another upload (text file) that somehow couldn't be deleted by the mod author.

Obviously somehow, instructions should be able to be updated, not sure how but perhaps this could be a start to people on both sides to work together for the betterment of the community.

[nexialys]

90% of the releases here are NOW made via the products manager and require no uninstall process... we talk about old hacks that are hard to uninstall...

[Regs]

10% is worthy enough for something like this to be discussed.

Here is another idea:

This site is based on the hard work of volunteers. Admins, moderators, coders, everyone is volunteering their time for the greater good of the community. Why not implement another "program" where volunteers can submit uninstall instructions for modifications that may require them?

Create a new forum that only these volunteers can start new threads in. Set some guidelines, do your best to promote it and leave the rest to the community.

[GoTTi]

there are still mods that ask for template modifications, or new templates to be made and $CODE to be inserted manually, or files to be uploaded.

all im asking is that there is a system or something where if a file is moved to the graveyard it is noted how to uninstall the thing incase there are suers who have it installed that dont have the original information any longer. why is this such a debate??? its a VALID argument, one that deserves the observation and consideration of the staff here. im not asking for cheeseball smilies to be added here am i? im asking for information to be available to those that have INSTALLED the mod, instructions on how to uninstall it, a reversal tool, what needs to be uninstalled and deleted from the server and if any template edits need to be reverted.

[Lynne]

You know, there is nothing to stop you from posting uninstall instructions in the thread for the modifications you have installed. If you do that, then when the modification gets moved to the graveyard, or archived, you can search the thread for your posts and find the uninstall instructions. I'm sure the others in the thread will be thankful that you took the time to post them also.

[TNCclubman]

maybe thats the solution to all this. Tell hack designers to also include the uninstall in the text part of their post, and not just in the attatchment...

[Andreas]

there are still mods that ask for template modifications
That is the correct/best way to modify templates (if template hooks can't be used).

[GoTTi]

You know, there is nothing to stop you from posting uninstall instructions in the thread for the modifications you have installed. If you do that, then when the modification gets moved to the graveyard, or archived, you can search the thread for your posts and find the uninstall instructions. I'm sure the others in the thread will be thankful that you took the time to post them also.

....:down:

[Dismounted]

its a VALID argument, one that deserves the observation and consideration of the staff here.
And we also have valid arguments - you are not the only one with them. Your suggestion of keeping the files on board have been "heard" and have been rebutted by another argument (the law). Reg's idea does sound good in principle, but if the author decides to remove their modifications, why wouldn't they remove those instructions as well?

[Lynne]

You know, there is nothing to stop you from posting uninstall instructions in the thread for the modifications you have installed. If you do that, then when the modification gets moved to the graveyard, or archived, you can search the thread for your posts and find the uninstall instructions. I'm sure the others in the thread will be thankful that you took the time to post them also.....:down:
Do you care to elaborate on that?

Who do you think is better qualified to write good install instructions - a user who has installed the product and has an interest in making sure there are good uninstall instructions OR some user who has never installed the product? I mean seriously, I thought it was a good suggestion. Right after you install the product, just write down what needs to be done to uninstall it. Then just post it in the thread. Why is that a bad suggestion?

[GoTTi]

Do you care to elaborate on that?

Who do you think is better qualified to write good install instructions - a user who has installed the product and has an interest in making sure there are good uninstall instructions OR some user who has never installed the product? I mean seriously, I thought it was a good suggestion. Right after you install the product, just write down what needs to be done to uninstall it. Then just post it in the thread. Why is that a bad suggestion?

well gee, instead of myself sharing the information of uninstall procedure, maybe i should be knida selfish like the person either requesting the mod to goto the graveyard or movign it to the graveyard if there is a exploit or whatever found, not care, and just keep the information to myself? but that would defeat the purpose of my argument that if data goes missing on our end, and a mod is moved to the graveyard, atleast we will know what we as owners and installers of mods need to do to uninstall the thing

but if the author decides to remove their modifications, why wouldn't they remove those instructions as well?

you havent read this thread have you?

if there are users who have installed a modification, clicked install or whatever, and then say down the line the owner removes it, UNINSTALL information should be provided to those that have either clicked installed, or just in general be posted there.

you know what else i thought of when i was making this post....if a coder releases a mod that is just a plugin, 1 file, then it gets installed, and say a few months or weeks down the line its moved to graveyard, we will forget its just 1 simple plugin and not know if there is anything else there we need to worry about. not all mods are released as zip files and have multiple files in there, alot are just the plugins for import. if we know to just remove the plugin, then that small bit of information goes a long way.

[nexialys]

soyou mean that instead of being secured by releasing hacks that only you can manage, you would let any member, coder or not, releasing the instructions in some other post, just to avoid you do delete your stuff pathetically?

we see this on a bunch of sites, they take all the hacks here, and re-release them to avoid being deleted...

we call this PIRACY... sorry but you have no more point in this, you just try to find solutions where there are none...

[Adrian Schneider]

My personal suggestion would be to take responsibility for what you install... test mods before throwing them onto your live site.

[GoTTi]

soyou mean that instead of being secured by releasing hacks that only you can manage, you would let any member, coder or not, releasing the instructions in some other post, just to avoid you do delete your stuff pathetically?

we see this on a bunch of sites, they take all the hacks here, and re-release them to avoid being deleted...

we call this PIRACY... sorry but you have no more point in this, you just try to find solutions where there are none...

what r u talking about?

--------------- Added 1235585877 at 1235585877 ---------------

My personal suggestion would be to take responsibility for what you install... test mods before throwing them onto your live site.

its not about testing. read the thread.

[nexialys]

My personal suggestion would be to take responsibility for what you install... test mods before throwing them onto your live site.

and keep your site up to date each time you add or update something... not only the core system, but all the hacks you have, they usually update when there is a new version of vB, and they usually get updated when someone find a problem...

--------------- Added 1235585961 at 1235585961 ---------------

read the thread.

looks like you did not read any of the official answers, isn't it?

[Lynne]

well gee, instead of myself sharing the information of uninstall procedure, maybe i should be knida selfish like the person either requesting the mod to goto the graveyard or movign it to the graveyard if there is a exploit or whatever found, not care, and just keep the information to myself? but that would defeat the purpose of my argument that if data goes missing on our end, and a mod is moved to the graveyard, atleast we will know what we as owners and installers of mods need to do to uninstall the thing

You *are* being kinda selfish. You come to this site, download the modifications, and expect other people to do stuff that *you* should have done in the first place - kept track of your modifications and made sure you have good notes regarding each and every one of them. That is *your* responsibility - not ours, not the developers, but *yours*. Take responsibility, Gotti, stop trying to push it off on someone else.

[nexialys]

oh, btw, when a mod is found with a security risk, it is NOT moved to the graveyard, it is moved to the quarantine forum where the coder can debug his work without deleting it... looks like you missed the announcement 2 years ago...

[Lizard King]

It is webmasters own responsibility to follow the modifications etc. If you download a modification and install it to your forum , you should always keep a backup of both files and install instructions of the mod.

If you donot do that , there is no meaning to complain.

[Spank]

You *are* being kinda selfish. You come to this site, download the modifications, and expect other people to do stuff that *you* should have done in the first place - kept track of your modifications and made sure you have good notes regarding each and every one of them. That is *your* responsibility - not ours, not the developers, but *yours*. Take responsibility, Gotti, stop trying to push it off on someone else.

Seconded.

[King Kovifor]

well gee, instead of myself sharing the information of uninstall procedure, maybe i should be knida selfish like the person either requesting the mod to goto the graveyard or movign it to the graveyard if there is a exploit or whatever found, not care, and just keep the information to myself? but that would defeat the purpose of my argument that if data goes missing on our end, and a mod is moved to the graveyard, atleast we will know what we as owners and installers of mods need to do to uninstall the thing

So, you would rather have us impose several rules on developers so that these items can be placed here. To me, that's more work, as I'm now forced to duplicate uninstall instructions just to get my work released here. I would be extremely averse to the idea! As stated several times, it is the user's responsibility to keep track of it. Copy your install instructions to the server when you install, keep a back up in several places. I can't tell you how many random mod files I had stored around here (my own) that were of various versions and install instructions and such to keep track of them. Now, everything is under SVN so I don't have to...

[GoTTi]

nah not getting turned around on me, no way.

the idea is to have the uninstall information placed on the mods when moved to the graveyard. either removal of the plugin or whatever. staff can do it or dont, its the suggestion i submitted to this vb.org feedback forum. take it or not. im not gunna argue and debate it anymore, aint getting anywhere obviously. its not just my lost when it happens so whatever.

just close the thread already or delete it, useless.

[Spank]

nah not getting turned around on me, no way.

the idea is to have the uninstall information placed on the mods when moved to the graveyard. either removal of the plugin or whatever. staff can do it or dont, its the suggestion i submitted to this vb.org feedback forum. take it or not. im not gunna argue and debate it anymore, aint getting anywhere obviously. its not just my lost when it happens so whatever.

just close the thread already or delete it, useless.
It's only not getting anywhere because you won't accept the reasons why this isn't really feasible. So you need to accept the reasons and suggestions given to you and move on.

[RedeemedWarrior]

I backup everything in Zip and Rar folders on my Large Hard-drive

Everything i use i keep 2 backup's of, that way no matter what happens here i have my copy

[GoTTi]

It's only not getting anywhere because you won't accept the reasons why this isn't really feasible. So you need to accept the reasons and suggestions given to you and move on.

i already did. im over the topic already.

[R-D]

nah not getting turned around on me, no way.

the idea is to have the uninstall information placed on the mods when moved to the graveyard. either removal of the plugin or whatever. staff can do it or dont, its the suggestion i submitted to this vb.org feedback forum. take it or not. im not gunna argue and debate it anymore, aint getting anywhere obviously. its not just my lost when it happens so whatever.

just close the thread already or delete it, useless.

You really seem to be missing the point here. Short of having a time machine to go back in time and download the modifications before they're deleted by the thread starters, how are the staff supposed to do that?

That's obviously excluding the time constraints, which, quite frankly, shouldn't be a staff duty anyway. I'd rather they were moderating the site, not spending hours writing instructions for someone else's modification.

You should take this up with the coders who don't leave uninstallation instructions, not the staff. It's the coder's modification, the coder's decision to delete their mods (barring security issues, obviously) and the coder's failure to leave uninstall instructions.

Aside from providing this (free) resource, Jelsoft and the staff aren't responsible for other people's work and to be frank, that's the way it should be.


If you really want uninstall instructions or backed up modifications, you have both your server and your hard drive. There's no real reason why both should fail and there's also no excuse not to use every opportunity to backup everything, especially as you seem to have such a big problem with this. I have modifications spread across 2 hard drives and my server. There's no reason why you, or anyone else, can't do the same.

[GoTTi]

You really seem to be missing the point here. Short of having a time machine to go back in time and download the modifications before they're deleted by the thread starters, how are the staff supposed to do that?

That's obviously excluding the time constraints, which, quite frankly, shouldn't be a staff duty anyway. I'd rather they were moderating the site, not spending hours writing instructions for someone else's modification.

You should take this up with the coders who don't leave uninstallation instructions, not the staff. It's the coder's modification, the coder's decision to delete their mods (barring security issues, obviously) and the coder's failure to leave uninstall instructions.

Aside from providing this (free) resource, Jelsoft and the staff aren't responsible for other people's work and to be frank, that's the way it should be.


If you really want uninstall instructions or backed up modifications, you have both your server and your hard drive. There's no real reason why both should fail and there's also no excuse not to use every opportunity to backup everything, especially as you seem to have such a big problem with this. I have modifications spread across 2 hard drives and my server. There's no reason why you, or anyone else, can't do the same.

anyways, im over the topic. not taking any suggestions from anyone regarding it, go ahead and close the topic or move it to the graveyard. dead issue already

[TNCclubman]

Its a good idea, why doesnt everyone just take a deep breath and realize its for the greater good.

When they first imposed a seatbelt law everyone screamed and hollared...

[GoTTi]

Its a good idea, why doesnt everyone just take a deep breath and realize its for the greater good.

When they first imposed a seatbelt law everyone screamed and hollared...

click-it-or-ticket

[King Kovifor]

anyways, im over the topic. not taking any suggestions from anyone regarding it, go ahead and close the topic or move it to the graveyard. dead issue already

If you really want this taken serious by other developers, why not set the example with your products. Quick glance I've found at least one that goes completely against what you want.

[hambil]

I agree with Gotti. I've had this issue a few times. It doesn't kill for the author to leave a note why it was moved to the GY and how to uninstall it, while keeping the original downloads there. There is no harm in doing this.
Unless things have changed since I dropped off the planet, we are not allowed to say why we left or removed our mods. Uninstall instructions by the author are a good idea though, I agree.

[KW802]

Unless things have changed since I dropped off the planet, we are not allowed to say why we left or removed our mods.I did not realize that was a vB.org policy. Is it written anywhere or is it something that you got hit with in the past?

[Lynne]

I've seen authors leave reasons.... or I'm pretty sure I have seen reasons. But, why do they need to post a reason? I've seen authors simply write "I am closing this project" or similar in the thread. The reason why doesn't matter at all - anyone can leave uninstall instructions which is why I suggested that a user who wants to make sure there are uninstall instructions available just post them themselves in the thread.

[Paul M]

I did not realize that was a vB.org policy. Is it written anywhere or is it something that you got hit with in the past?
There is no such policy that I'm aware of. However, the GY is read only, so you could not post to it after a mod is moved.

[GoTTi]

If you really want this taken serious by other developers, why not set the example with your products. Quick glance I've found at least one that goes completely against what you want.


i dont write modifications to release, and if i did write any that were plugins, i would leave uninstall info if it were moved to the graveyard. why not?

[nexialys]

that's so hilarious to read you GoTTi... you preach for something you're not even able to provide, this become more and more pathetic...

[King Kovifor]

i dont write modifications to release, and if i did write any that were plugins, i would leave uninstall info if it were moved to the graveyard. why not?

Modifications, templates, anything. They all still need install instructions, yet I have missed the uninstall. Unless I'm mistaken. A wise woman I know always says, "Seeing is believing."

[hambil]

There is no such policy that I'm aware of. However, the GY is read only, so you could not post to it after a mod is moved.

At the time of my departure, it was over some disagreements in how security holes in hacks where handled. I was angry, but for the most part rational and posted a number of suggestions for why I was so upset. The suggestions where not taken seriously at the time, and I was 'warned' that I was not to continue. Ironically, most of those suggestions have now been implemented. I also posted a note in my hacks, basically saying that they were being moved off vb.org due to policy disagreements and could be found on my site blah-blah-blah.com. I was told to remove the note.

So, whatever the official policy is, that is what happened, and not just to me.

I am not trying to stir stuff up - I'm back, and long over it, but someone asked a question and I gave an honest answer.

[DieselMinded]

I made a request to have search this thread for my posts added to the threads search box , with in a week paul installed it here .

I have had my fair share of quarks on here but this is the best there is and i feel its a privilege to be able to be apart of it .

I save all my mods locally , If there was an additional option when creating a modification thread to include uninstall instructions maybe more people would do it

personally i would love it if there was a different bbcode for coders and designers to use when submitting a modification that would automatically add

<-- THIS MODS NAME HERE -->

before and after the code blocks

this is my fault for just pluging codes in everywhere before i knew better now im slowly reclaiming control of my templetes :D

this is coming from someone who has 4 infractions on here , you couldnt pay me to mod this site , people are not greatful enough of others contributions that are making them Money ,

there would be a "donations sent" meter above every modification for $$ sent to the developer

Long Live vBorg

[GoTTi]

that's so hilarious to read you GoTTi... you preach for something you're not even able to provide, this become more and more pathetic...

dont provide? im not a coder or a modification releaser, i dont write them. whats pathetic about offering a suggestion for vb.org to have this? i really dont care anymore about this so no point in continuing the conversation.

[nexialys]

it's been 2 days since you said you were over this thread, and still, you continue posting in it... you really don't know how to stop...

and btw, if you are not a releaser, why do you have releases in your profile?... update them to follow what you require here, and maybe you will be taken seriously. you are making the right guys a dishonnour....

[GoTTi]

it's been 2 days since you said you were over this thread, and still, you continue posting in it... you really don't know how to stop...


its my thread, i dont have to stop on it. ive asked for it to be closed and it hasnt, so i can reply to posts just like everyone else. topic is still a dead issue to me, im not arguing it anymore, useless point to.

[King Kovifor]

its my thread, i dont have to stop on it. ive asked for it to be closed and it hasnt, so i can reply to posts just like everyone else. topic is still a dead issue to me, im not arguing it anymore, useless point to.

Threads aren't closed by request.

[nexialys]

Threads aren't closed by request.

only releases...

(looks like GoTTi will have a revenge to prepare!)

[GoTTi]

nah no revenge, just topic is a dead issue to me, thats all. if it gets implemented then cool, but i am not looking forward to it

[King Kovifor]

only releases...

(looks like GoTTi will have a revenge to prepare!)

Releases aren't closed. That is technically a delete.

[Hex_legend]

Silly question, But if everyone was to use the automatic template modification system, would that not remove it all (apart from the plugins and files) automatically?
Surely that would help out a little bit with what Gotti is saying?

[nexialys]

the problem is that Andreas's system is not by default on vbulletin, so no coder have to use it in a coding protocol...

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Uninstall instructions can have more then only template modifications.

[Hex_legend]

the problem is that Andreas's system is not by default on vbulletin, so no coder have to use it in a coding protocol...

I mean, people who want to have the mods back or something, couldnt they just donwload it and do it that way?
Would be much easier in my opinion

[nexialys]

you can always suggest it on vb.com so they can add it to the next version... i doubt it would change a thing if just suggested on vb.org anyway...

[GoTTi]

heres another one for the books: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=179083

why was this mod placed in the graveyard? i have it installed but never received a notification as to why it was dropped in the graveyard.

[nexialys]

that's what we call coders unable to provide support.. ;)

i faced this once, when i decided to drop all my releases from this site. people started to pm me for the help... i gave support, but nothing more... people did not complaint because i was there anyway.

[Paul M]

We dont send out notifications when mods are moved to the GY.

[RedTyger]

heres another one for the books: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=179083

why was this mod placed in the graveyard? i have it installed but never received a notification as to why it was dropped in the graveyard.

It was moved at my request (that is, the moderators judged it for themselves at my request) because the modification was almost a total copy of something I wrote. My concerns were:

1) It was my work. For small code it's not such a big deal, but that one took a lot of my time.

2) The mod was version 2.1 when I released it, 5.0 was out by the time I reported it. It was a very old copy and should not have still been in use.

3) The person who released it replaced my copyright notice with their own and was charging to remove it, I was concerned that people were handing over money without good reason.

There are good reasons not to notify by default, but on occasion it would be appropriate.