Trusted Coder/Designer Scheme for VB.org

[UKBusinessLive]

Its a shame that we can't have a feedback type of mod on here,

Perhaps now's the time to set up a VB.org Trusted Designer/Coder Scheme where only fully vetted and trusted members can join, So no Cowboys, Thanks

It wouldn't take much to set up and only Coders/Designers that are willing to let the scheme mediate any problems before monies are exchanged, Perhaps have a "Trusted Logo" in their Postbit.

Member who want to take part would have to be recommended and provide proof of their work, etc as well as being established on here, Why would someone give a job to a guy no one knows with only 3 post???

It would be a great idea to be able to be part of this scheme, and hopefully members would be proud of their "Trusted" status, Not to mention the influx of work that may come their way.

It does make me angry when people on here get ripped off, but if anyone can prevent it, then its us ;)

I wonder if the Nice Admin's on this great site would allow something like this???

[Shelley_c]

Even being branded as a trusted designer/coder wouldn't be enough to reflect the trustworthiness in a person. Nothing is stopping them from doing a couple of jobs and then ripping off someone. Or, having a friend say they did a great job for them when infact they didn't.

A system needs to be put in place that is ongoing throughout time so people know what kind of person they are dealing with now not from 6 months ago when they were handed a trusted title. I agree though, something needs to be done, too many people are being ripped off here.

[Paul M]

Fully "vetted and trusted" by who exactly ?

What happens if one of these trusted members goes on to "rip someone off" (or is simply accused of it) ?

Sorry, but while at first this may sound a good idea, such a system is open to loads of abuse and problems, and the staff here dont have the time (or desire) to administer such a system (or deal with the numerous complaints, accusations, etc that it would inevitably cause).

[Alfa1]

I think the best that can be done is show how many (un)satisfied customers a coder has, but Paul posted some time ago that a coder rating system will not happen anytime soon.

[UKBusinessLive]

Fully "vetted and trusted" by who exactly ?

What happens if one of these trusted members goes on to "rip someone off" (or is simply accused of it) ?

Sorry, but while at first this may sound a good idea, such a system is open to loads of abuse and problems, and the staff here dont have the time (or desire) to administer such a system (or deal with the numerous complaints, accusations, etc that it would inevitably cause).


Thanks for the reply Paul, :) Thats the problem "What happens if one of these trusted members goes on to "rip someone off" (or is simply accused of it) ?"

How about some sort of feedback mod where members could see for themselves, I know nothing will stop someone ripping someone off even if they have trusted status, But would a member that has such status be willing to chuck it all away for a few dollars??? ( not to mention future work???)

Most importantly would it lower the rate of these scams being committed, as oppose to simply not doing nothing??

Thanks Paul ;)

[mikey1991]

I can see it turning into more of a competition.

[lasto]

I think the best that can be done is show how many (un)satisfied customers a coder has, but Paul posted some time ago that a coder rating system will not happen anytime soon.
He may of told us but that dont stop us asking Again does it.
A board is not about the staff please remember that - its about time they stood back and actually listened to what the members are asking for.How many posts/threads have been on here over the yrs regarding the same subject,and how many members have left vb.org simply because its like banging your head off a brick wall,because the staff dont ever want to listen to what others have to say or implement anything that would make the board much safer for ALL members.An ebay feedback system would be the perfect tool.

Who really cares if its open to abuse,its more than we got at the moment,which is nothing.
The current system as it stands is open to abuse and it certainly does get abused simply because there is no comeback on either party if things fall apart.
Final Note : If you not willing to help then you should consider removing the Paid for requests section until you can come up with a better solution.

[UKBusinessLive]

Thats what i thought Lasto, Doing something has to be better that just sitting back and turning the other cheek. Its strange how everyones prepared to argue against an idea like this but when the problems occur, no one wants to know.

The fact remains you can never cure this problem 100% But what you can do is to reduce the risk of re-occurance and thats got to be worth something :confused:

[GSeybold]

I belong to another forum that using a rating system for this in which the desinger and buyer rates one another and also leaves a writen eval as well. Similiar to Ebay but not that involved. I won't be using anyone from here again, unless something like this is installed.

It's too bad because I had at least 20 projects or more. Several hundred in award $ I prefer to give my business to individuals who could use a little extra dough, especially now a days, but I guess I'll just go back to use big companies. Bummer.

It's a difficult thing to regulate and takes a lot of admin time I understand this.

Gabby

[smacklan]

Fully "vetted and trusted" by who exactly ?

What happens if one of these trusted members goes on to "rip someone off" (or is simply accused of it) ?

Sorry, but while at first this may sound a good idea, such a system is open to loads of abuse and problems, and the staff here dont have the time (or desire) to administer such a system (or deal with the numerous complaints, accusations, etc that it would inevitably cause).
iTrader is pretty well self-managed and works pretty good at many places I do business Paul. I agree that staff here shouldn't be asked to spend all their time refereeing perhaps something along those lines would be worth a trial period?

[Paul M]

I actually tested iTrader on my local vb.org test forum about 18 months ago, but in the end it never went any further. TBH, I cant remember why now, but I think it was just lack of time. Its never been completely ruled out, but its not top of the list of things to look at.

[lasto]

iTrader is pretty well self-managed and works pretty good at many places I do business Paul. I agree that staff here shouldn't be asked to spend all their time refereeing perhaps something along those lines would be worth a trial period?
no one is asking them to referee - just to install a system that is fair to be sides.
If this seems to be falling on deaf ears then make a public vote and ask members what they want.

[Brandon Sheley]

I think itrader would be a good idea for this problem. It may not be the best, but it would at least help build credibility for the newer users at the Org.

[Paul M]

no one is asking them to referee - just to install a system that is fair to be sides.
If this seems to be falling on deaf ears then make a public vote and ask members what they want.
By all means have a vote, but please remember that we dont make decisions based purely on public (or private) votes.

[nexialys]

By all means have a vote, but please remember that we dont make decisions based purely on public (or private) votes.

actually, Paul, your role here is to satisfy the community -- globally -- if we have 50 voters, i don't think it would be representative... but if we have 2000, maybe it would be just fair to do something... i personally don't care about a system, i think vb.org is not a repository for references or a portfolio.
a vote or so.. .lol


i give a positive vote here... there is no more than 50 voters here!

[lasto]

voted YES but how many people are going to see this thread.
Also the feedback system would cover members as well not just Coders/Designers as it has to cover both sides of the deal.

[UKBusinessLive]

I can see where Paul is coming from.

The mods Do a grand job here its gonna make it worst if we expect them to police this feedback idea, Thats why a system like i trader or some sort of referance tool will let the members decide for themselves based on the coders/designers feedback, a system like that would not require any input from the staff as its purely run by input from the members themselves.

The fact Remains, we're never going to stop this from happening, but we can do something to reduce the risk.

I think its a great idea and definately worth a shot, if it don't work after 3 months, then Scrap the idea, But if everyone had a choice to either do something about it or close your eyes and pretend it don't happen, then i'd know which i would chose ;)

[princeedward]

hmmmm...why not...it might be a good idea... Go 4 Yes here...
....same as...

:p:up: Yes We Can!

[smacklan]

I actually tested iTrader on my local vb.org test forum about 18 months ago, but in the end it never went any further. TBH, I cant remember why now, but I think it was just lack of time. Its never been completely ruled out, but its not top of the list of things to look at.
Thanks for the honest reply Paul, I appreciate it :)

[Paul M]

a system like that would not require any input from the staff as its purely run by input from the members themselves.
If only that were true, but in reality, someone who gets a bad mark will complain its false/unjust - people will use it to falsely bad rep others they dont like etc etc, staff will have to spend time checking for abuse.

[Alfa1]

Would that be solved with an extra staff member?

[UKBusinessLive]

If only that were true, but in reality, someone who gets a bad mark will complain its false/unjust - people will use it to falsely bad rep others they dont like etc etc, staff will have to spend time checking for abuse.

There has to be a reason for a bad Mark Paul, well that seems to be a minor inconvienaince compared to the real problem of people getting ripped off.

I guess we could have a resolution group, of senior (Long term) members which would resolve such issues, like a council which would look into any problems on behalf of members, But to be honest, if someonen does what your saying then it should be a bannable offence.


staff will have to spend time checking for abuse.

Can you see this being a Major problem with staff Rushed off their feet sorting abuse claims??

Thanks for your Answers Paul ;)

[lasto]

How can that be any worse than the system we have in place.
Of course you are going to get people saying he gave me a bad mark for nothing - well the other person just gives a bad mark in return.
Now if a person has loads of bad marks from different people then it certainly gives you an indication that things are not going to well for them and that they are failing on their part.
No need for mods to stress and have to intervene.
Add the system and let us do it ourselfs.

[Alfa1]

Such a system has a corrective nature. On sites that have a ratings system, many members are extremely cautious of their reputation and are also eager to reach the top of the reputation list. (because for coders that means more coding jobs)

[UKBusinessLive]

Such a system has a corrective nature. On sites that have a ratings system, many members are extremely cautious of their reputation and are also eager to reach the top of the reputation list. (because for coders that means more coding jobs)

Thats why i think that the more trustworthy people would want to protect their repuatation, similar to ebay feedback, Its all very nice saying well they'll do a good job for a few years, get mega feedback and then probably rip someone off, In reality it don't work like that.

I think that the relationship between client and coder with high feedback will be better than with someone with very few.

[Dream]

just don't let people rate me if I don't answer a support question in the mods area and it's fine :p

[Ziki]

No,no,no,no,no.You could give bad feedback just because you don't like the person.

[punchbowl]

trust no one

[lasto]

just don't let people rate me if I don't answer a support question in the mods area and it's fine :p

The hack should nto be used for that purpose as that is general board use.
The itrader hack is for the paid request section so people can give good or bad rating depending on the outcome of the deal.

[Shazz]

iTrader system!

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Nothing changed to change our view on this since this post: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=1549152&postcount=49

[nexialys]

if we track the requests more, we can see that since 2002, nothing changed... and their arguments are fair and correct... for some people, there is a need for a global sticky about this, i think.. lol

[nexialys]

poor Nexialys :D

actually i would be one with only positive feedbacks, as i do not release anything here... ;) if you start making negative feedbacks only because i did not answer your requests, or if you just not like me, it's pathetic... ;(

(i say "you", but it's not toward anybody here!)

[lasto]

The way i see it is this :

Scammers can freely go around this board and get away with it.
If we complain or god forbid ask them for our money back we risk a ban or get accused of trolling threads (esp since the scammers simply ignore pm`s)

There is no recourse for them but plenty for us.VB.org does not have a system in place to protect either party - and if we use the tools `as provided` it simply means nothing - its just text,words which mean nothing as many people do not use search to check up on members.
What action is taken when something goes wrong - how come the scammers who have been reported are freely browsing the board and taking new jobs.
The answer is simple :

They done nothing to the board - so they allowed and because we ourselfs have a problem then its up to us to take it elsewhere and sort it out and not post anything about it on here.
Ive had numerous posts edited by MODS because its not in the boards interest.

Im close to a Ban as well but when i get a ban - remember this - The scammers who ripped me off will proberly be taking your job from paid request section and theres nothing u can do if they rip u off.

[UKBusinessLive]

lasto, I'm pretty sure you won't get banned for pointing out that you were ripped off, I think anyone who's a victim in any type of case, cannot be vitimised if they speak out and let others know of the Dangers.

I'm sure all the admins here at VB.org are looking into this as we speak, so hang in there. Only this weekend gabby got stung, so i'm sure something going to get done mate.

VB.org is a great forum and there are many honest people that would go out of their way to help. Its sad things like this happen but thats life it'll happen on any forum given half the chance.

We just need to be extra careful, Get recommendations from others and only part with money after the job has been done, if a coder want money up front, then look elsewhere as thes probably loads that would help for free.

I know yopu lost a large sum of money, but at least you won't make the same mistake twice.

Hang in there mate

Gerry :)

[lasto]

lasto, I'm pretty sure you won't get banned for pointing out that you were ripped off, I think anyone who's a victim in any type of case, cannot be vitimised if they speak out and let others know of the Dangers.

I'm sure all the admins here at VB.org are looking into this as we speak, so hang in there. Only this weekend gabby got stung, so i'm sure something going to get done mate.

VB.org is a great forum and there are many honest people that would go out of their way to help. Its sad things like this happen but thats life it'll happen on any forum given half the chance.

We just need to be extra careful, Get recommendations from others and only part with money after the job has been done, if a coder want money up front, then look elsewhere as thes probably loads that would help for free.

I know yopu lost a large sum of money, but at least you won't make the same mistake twice.

Hang in there mate

Gerry :)
Do u want to bet - i did get stung twice.Check my sig.
Also im not holding my breath as the second job i was ripped off on was taken last september and the person is still browsing freely.
All they do is ignore PMS and hope it will go away.Look at it this way - Scammers dont even need to use the actual board so long as they got the pm system and from that they just need to Pm anyone who posts a job in the request section.
They should be made to reply to the job - and not by way of the PM system.Nobody even knows they are still active until u get a pm from them

[UKBusinessLive]

Do u want to bet - i did get stung twice.Check my sig.
Also im not holding my breath as the second job i was ripped off on was taken last september and the person is still browsing freely.
All they do is ignore PMS and hope it will go away.Look at it this way - Scammers dont even need to use the actual board so long as they got the pm system and from that they just need to Pm anyone who posts a job in the request section.
They should be made to reply to the job - and not by way of the PM system.Nobody even knows they are still active until u get a pm from them

How about if we coders and designers came up with a voluntry code of practice, that would be adhered to, giving both parties piece of mind. If we signed up voluntarily and agreed to a few ground rules then surely that would put the faith back into the community?

I'm sure people here be willing to get a job done and then get paid afterwards, or even use a 3rd party as an escrow service, I don't know??? But could it be something we could expand on and get the ideas coming in???

[lasto]

How about if we coders and designers came up with a voluntry code of practice, that would be adhered to, giving both parties piece of mind. If we signed up voluntarily and agreed to a few ground rules then surely that would put the faith back into the community?

I'm sure people here be willing to get a job done and then get paid afterwards, or even use a 3rd party as an escrow service, I don't know??? But could it be something we could expand on and get the ideas coming in???

that wont work simply because theres always people who are willing to rip others off.
Even though ive had 2 people who ripped me off and get away with it,Ive still had many success stories with other coders who have took jobs and completed the work.
Is just a few bad eggs out there,but without the proper feedback system in place they wont be weeded out,so we back to square one.
Over the years Vb.Org has been told that people are gettin ripped big style on here but they do nothing,as its not their problem.They wont implement anything to make our lifes easier or something where u can see at a glance if the user has had much success in the past.
The onus is always on the requester to do searches and then even when u find a coder/designer who seems right for the job it dont mean u wont get stung.
Now when it goes wrong all you are allowed to do is post a short post (to your orginal request) with who took the job and what went wrong - anythin else and the mods go mad in Edit mode.
And that im afraid is the end of it - you have to carry on your life as if everything fine.Even though you mega p***** that the other party has got away with it.

[GSeybold]

For what my two cents is worth. I think vb.org should either have a rating system or stop paid projects all together. I'm considering creating a forum for paid projects and it WILL have a ratings system. I think there is a great need for an exclusive forum like this for two reasons. One is that there are a great deal of very talented individuals out there that could use a little bit of extra cash and running live publically viewed contests is kind of fun. I would also make designers/coders have to submit an application first and a non refundable monthly participation fee.

I work way to hard for my money to have some scumbag take it for free. :mad:

Gabby

[KW802]

... I'm considering creating a forum for paid projects and it WILL have a ratings system. I think there is a great need for an exclusive forum like this for two reasons. ...It's been tried & done before; some efforts were by unknowns & some were by some pretty common names in the vB community. All failed for various reasons.

I would also make designers/coders have to submit an application first and a non refundable monthly participation fee. That part in bold will likely ensure failure before the project even got started.

The solution is what you've already said... ... I think vb.org should either have a rating system or stop paid projects all together. ...Whether the vB.org staff care enough to accept it not, vB.org is still the master 'hub' for a lot of the freelance work in the vB community. As long as it remains to run like it is today, then the scammers will remain rampant and those who get ripped off are the ones who get penalized. As others have said... throw iTrader up and let the vB community police ourselves.

[AshAbed]

If a rating system were implemented, I'd suggest that at the start of each project the person hired and person hiring agree to being rated, by this I mean..

Something along the lines of the applicant clicking a link which says 'apply to job' within the person hiring's thread at the requests forum, which would give them a text area to PM the thread starter. The thread starter would then read through the PMs, be able to reply if they'd like, and click something like 'job granted' on the PM of the person they hire. Afterwords, both the applicant and the person applying would be given permission to rate one another, with each member's given & received ratings displayed in their profiles.

This could prevent people from rating whoever they like(/dislike) even if they haven't worked with them, and only allow for ratings between people who have actually agreed to work together.

Hopefully what I said wasn't too convoluted, it's 1am and I've got plenty of work on my hands right now...

[Dean C]

I say this in every thread about a trader system, if you get ripped off you generally don't do your research. I have outsourced work to people here on a few occasions in the past, and every single time I have asked for 3 references. I asked for their past clients phone # and email and chased up every single reference asking lots of questions, surrounding competence and punctuality. I have not had a single problem to this date :)

[lasto]

I say this in every thread about a trader system, if you get ripped off you generally don't do your research. I have outsourced work to people here on a few occasions in the past, and every single time I have asked for 3 references. I asked for their past clients phone # and email and chased up every single reference asking lots of questions, surrounding competence and punctuality. I have not had a single problem to this date :)

well dean c aint you lucky.
Just because u do your homework does not mean u are safe.
I checked up on the last person and everything seemed fine but obviously it was`nt.
Seems more are against a sort of trader system than actually helping members on this board.Im starting to think these kinds of posts/threads are actually a waste of time simply because they fall on deaf ears and nothing will change because the board itself does not want to change how it operates.

Anyway as a final Note Dean c - what would your attitude be if u did get ripped off on one of these jobs ? - would you just put it down to experience,and not bother if the scammer was still able to get further work on here ?

[Princeton]

As stated previously (https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showpost.php?p=1549152&postcount=49)...
There are tools already available what makes you think that a "custom feedback system" will make a difference?


FACTS:
80-90% of "ripoff" complaints that we hear about are jobs not even posted in our Paid Requests forum.
vbulletin.org is a place for "vbulletin programming" knowledge and FREE modifications.
A new system / feature should be added only if it fixes the problem at hand - adding this "feedback system" will only create new problemsWith that said, there are many things that we would like to change. However, we are bound to work within our limits:

limits placed by Internet Brands
limits placed by Jelsoft
legal / liability issues
the community / target audience
etc

[lasto]

well i must be in the 10% slot because my job was posted in the request forum (infact the 2 i got stung on where) - hows that for unlucky.

You know yourself its not working - and needs changing but you will always find excuses to not change anything.Its been like this for yrs now.

Like your sig says `there's room for improvement` - except when it comes to helping members.
In theory i could proberly sue jelsoft,as they where acting as the middle man when i requested a job (you provided the platform so must take some responsibility).

Seeing as all my chat was done in PM and records kept on this board then they should have a legal obligation to act on my behalf and sort out my problem.
I requested the job from this board and was forced to do all dealing by way of the pm system which is sort of underhanded if u ask me.

[Shelley_c]

well i must be in the 10% slot because my job was posted in the request forum (infact the 2 i got stung on where) - hows that for unlucky.

You know yourself its not working - and needs changing but you will always find excuses to not change anything.Its been like this for yrs now.

Like your sig says `there's room for improvement` - except when it comes to helping members.
In theory i could proberly sue jelsoft,as they where acting as the middle man when i requested a job (you provided the platform so must take some responsibility).

Seeing as all my chat was done in PM and records kept on this board then they should have a legal obligation to act on my behalf and sort out my problem.
I requested the job from this board and was forced to do all dealing by way of the pm system which is sort of underhanded if u ask me.

You may want to get the group of victims and ask them about the legality concerning vbulletin.org acting as the platform for Paid requests. I suppose, if there's enough of you and there's grounds to sue jelsoft then this would probably enduce change more than words.

All I'm saying is you definitely want to look into the legal area and research to see if jelsoft can be held responsible. :)

[nexialys]

All I'm saying is you definitely want to look into the legal area and research to see if jelsoft can be held responsible. :)

They can not be held responsible because there is a notice on top of the forum that indicate that they are not responsible... reading it or not is the responsability of the user on that forum, that means if you do not take all the actions possible to be informed and protect yourself, you can not put the other party responsible for your own misactions.

[Shelley_c]

Then your screwed lasto - for the 3rd time.

[lasto]

They can not be held responsible because there is a notice on top of the forum that indicate that they are not responsible... reading it or not is the responsability of the user on that forum, that means if you do not take all the actions possible to be informed and protect yourself, you can not put the other party responsible for your own misactions.
Are u a lawyer as im certain that is untrue.If i was to follow your way of thinking then,if i put a notice on my website saying No warezs allowed - but still allow people to post warezs then im not responsible because i put a notice up,so im covered.

The law does not work that way and Shelley maybe i am screwed for the 3rd time but i will certainly be looking into it because this board wont protect us.

[nexialys]

Are u a lawyer as im certain that is untrue.

i'm not a lawyer, you are not either... i "translated freely" what Jelsoft guys are always saying when someone is whinning about not being supported when scammed... you read it already, and that's what they say...

i personally think that you do not need a lawyer each time something bad come to you. if you can not protect yourself without a lawyer, do not go online. a lawyer is just there to apply what is stated in the laws. there is no laws about scammers on the internet yet, and even the american government have hard time finding the right way to protect the american citizen on the internet...

so yes, my interpretation may be flawed, but everybody is free to accept it or not...

[Shelley_c]

i personally think that you do not need a lawyer each time something bad come to you. if you can not protect yourself without a lawyer, do not go online.

Are you sure about that nex? If that's the case what are you doing online. Just seems a little hypocritical what you just said there, and a little funny at the same time.

Your english has picked up again I noticed. If lasto wishes to seek legal advice that is his privilege. Personally i think it would come to no avail. The best bet is to achieve changes here to lower the scamming that is increasing on a daily basis..

[nexialys]

Are you sure about that nex? If that's the case what are you doing online. Just seems a little hypocritical what you just said there, and a little funny at the same time.
Using the services of a lawyer once is not hypocritical, it's sporadically stupid. I meant that if each of your frustrations have to pass thru the uses of a lawyer, you have a problem,. because the net is filled with frustrations.

and btw, my unique use of a lawyer was not because of my own frustration, but to protect me from someone else's frustration... this is completely different.

the only way a user can protect himself here is by checking references (background as you say so)... if you can not check someone else's work, you can hire the guy anyway, but you have 50/50 chances to be frustrated at the end... and even some coders here have good reputation but sometimes give bad results because nobody's perfect.

[smacklan]

I think Princeton and Marco have stated pretty plainly no changes will be forthcoming to the Paid Requests forum. It may be out of their hands to make changes if they wanted to. It is a buyer beware situation not unlike many marketplaces on the internet.

[Shelley_c]

Don't want to hear it nex, your personal matters don't interest me. Try and be constructive instead of kicking someone in the teeth & basically laughing at them when they are down. There's one thing i hate and that's people being scammed. If I could help I would.

[nexialys]

actually Shelley, if you read the first place, and if lasto is fair enough to say it, you will see that i was the first one to try and help him with his first situation... i am even one of the few here to execute some work to replace the work of some scammer when a client come to me and prove being scammed...

you just did not see my point the way i showed it... and you are the one saying i am hypocritic when i never attacked nobody...

[UKBusinessLive]

Are you sure about that nex? If that's the case what are you doing online. Just seems a little hypocritical what you just said there, and a little funny at the same time.

Your english has picked up again I noticed. If lasto wishes to seek legal advice that is his privilege.

I think folk will have to look at their actions and stop being so trusting ;) I know in the real world we'd like nothing better than to be able to trust someone, but i'm sorry to dissapoint, It don't work out like that.

Say I was in a Restuarant, and a guy came up to me and said, "Hey, I have a 50" Plasma TV for sale for $250, Gimme the money and i'll go and fetch it"

How many of you here would give the cash without Question?? The truth is you wouldn't, But thats exactly what your doing.

Shop around, get to know the person and most importantly Hang onto your money until you've got something worth spending it on.

If a coder or designer is confident in their work then i'm sure they'll wait for their money, I can't see any reason as to why they'll feel to take cash up front, its not as if they have to buy anything. If you remember the following...

S.T.O.P

S. Safety - are you 100% certain that your happy to trust this person with your personal information and logins.

T. Time - Like all work, There comes a time when its completed. Find out how long and when you can expect your work to be done. You don't want it dragging on for months.

O. Organise - Before you engage full steam ahead, check that you have details about the coder, A landline number and address, Referances, and recomendations. A little bit of organising here will prevent hic ups later.

P. Payment. - When your happy with the work and the jobs been completed, then Pay, Don't delay as the coder has worked for you on Trust, Its a two way thing, so when you get your payment request and its what you agreed then please Pay promptly.

Its a Mad world out there so Be Safe ;)

[Coders Shack]

sounds good to me

[Alfa1]

S. Safety - are you 100% certain that your happy to trust this person with your personal information and logins.

O. Organise - Before you engage full steam ahead, check that you have details about the coder, .... Referances, and recomendations. A little bit of organising here will prevent hic ups later.
Isn't this exactly why a Coder rating system does? It adds references and recommendations. It gives extra credence to coders.

When you post a coding job here, you get contacted by all kinds of people. Some seem really interesting to work with, but many others seem like shady scams to me. I may very well be wrong. But I received a lot of offers from people without any reference or even posts here, who did not seem to need more information about the project but wanted money upfront.

Basically the only way to check a coder out is to review how good his/her work posted here is, and how well that is supported. That does limit the number of coders to choose from substantially.

[lasto]

Im not bothered about the money i actually lost.What annoys me the most,is the fact that the scammers can go freely around this board as if nothing happened.The 1st person who scammed me used to send emails to me nearly every day laughing at my attempts to get him banned from here.
I did my research on the 2nd coder and he seemed to be fine and had done other jobs in the past - so this is no guarantee you wont get stung.

What is the policy when someone rips you off,besides the usual,which is do your research ?

[Spank]

If a coder or designer is confident in their work then i'm sure they'll wait for their money, I can't see any reason as to why they'll feel to take cash up front, its not as if they have to buy anything.

If you are selling a 50" Plasma TV for sale for $250, and someone says to you "I'll take the telly. Give it to me and I'll go get the cash"

It's not just the people requesting the work being done that are getting scammed. A few months ago I spent 3 hours sorting out someone's database after quoting a very cheap price. I did the work and haven't heard from the guy since.

I think that's why some coders want at least some cash up front before doing the work. Why should the coder trust the client if the client doesn't trust the coder?

[UKBusinessLive]

If you are selling a 50" Plasma TV for sale for $250, and someone says to you "I'll take the telly. Give it to me and I'll go get the cash"

It's not just the people requesting the work being done that are getting scammed. A few months ago I spent 3 hours sorting out someone's database after quoting a very cheap price. I did the work and haven't heard from the guy since.

I think that's why some coders want at least some cash up front before doing the work. Why should the coder trust the client if the client doesn't trust the coder?

Thats True, In fact, coming to think about it what guarantee's does a coder have that he'll get paid??? at all.

The only alternative is using an escrow service and paying a bit extra to get a 3rd party involved :confused: But thats gonna make the whole concept of coder / client
into a more expensive mode. :(

Send them their code via a password protected zip file, when the coder get paid, they get the password??

[nexialys]

Send them their code via a password protected zip file, when the coder get paid, they get the password??
i personally have a default / demo forum where i display the work... it works there, so the client pay, then i deliver... the code can not be copied that way.

but escrow is also a good way to deal with the money side... sometimes it's not money, it may be something like stealing a database via a backdoor script in the product file, it can be a resell of the hack you paid millions for the exclusivity... there is a lot of ways a client can be scammed, and the same for a coder ...

[UKBusinessLive]

i personally have a default / demo forum where i display the work... it works there, so the client pay, then i deliver... the code can not be copied that way.

but escrow is also a good way to deal with the money side... sometimes it's not money, it may be something like stealing a database via a backdoor script in the product file, it can be a resell of the hack you paid millions for the exclusivity... there is a lot of ways a client can be scammed, and the same for a coder ...

In Europe theres an escrow service http://www.escrow-europa.com/escrow/english/index.htm

Costs 8 euros for a basic transaction, But to be honest, the more we look at these problems the more i feel that 100% guarantee is just not feasable.

There HAS to be an element of trust and that trust falls on us, not VB.org or jelsoft.

Theres two ways you can go about this, the trusting way and the more expensive way (Escrow, Proper company etc) I think we just need to find it in our hearts which one to go for at that particular moment :confused:

[lasto]

Forget about the trust as theres loads of trusted coders on here,and i should know as ive used them loads of times.Its the bad few that ruin it for the rest.
Maybe we should concentrate on how to solve issues when things do go wrong............................
Or even better idea - lets just forget it and should things go wrong then not even post about it.

Im gonna seriously have to back away from this thread.

[Spank]

As stated there's no 100% guaranteed way not to get scammed, but at least with a feedback system here the org it would make it easier for clients and coders to make an informed decision. I doubt false feedback would be much of an issue.

Currently clients can leave feedback on the coder they hired in the thread that they start, but the person taking the work doesn't have that option and if they can't start a thread about it then the coder can't make an informed decision on whether to take the work or not.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Currently clients can leave feedback on the coder they hired in the thread that they start, but the person taking the work doesn't have that option and if they can't start a thread about it then the coder can't make an informed decision on whether to take the work or not.
Just like the poster of a paid request has the option (and is encouraged) to leave feedback on the transaction, so do the takers of the request. If te taker wants to leave feedback on the transaction, then he will need to PM a staff member with his feedback, as he/she can not reply directly to the thread.

[Spank]

Just like the poster of a paid request has the option (and is encouraged) to leave feedback on the transaction, so do the takers of the request. If te taker wants to leave feedback on the transaction, then he will need to PM a staff member with his feedback, as he/she can not reply directly to the thread.

Thanks for the info there Marco, I did notice this on a thread Lynne left feedback for last night. I'll certainly do that in future.

It'd be easier on staff members with a feedback system :D

[Marco van Herwaarden]

We maybe get 1 such a request in themonth, so no need to create a system to relieve the workload of staff.

[UKBusinessLive]

We maybe get 1 such a request in themonth, so no need to create a system to relieve the workload of staff.

Fair Enough Marco :up:

I think the result of a thread like this highlights the fact that Yes, there are some less than honest people out there and that we as individuals need to be extra careful in our dealings with strangers who charge for their services.

It wouldn't be fair, to try and offsett a percentage of the blame to VB.org, at the end of the day we, as individuals are responsible for what we decide to do, no one else.

Just be Careful, As Lasto pointed out, he's had plenty of help from Honest people on here and Yes they are here, you just need to look :cool:

Scams for a large site like this are bound to happen, with the many thousands of members and loads signing up every day, the chances are that you may come accross some un-savory types, so thats why we need to go into self help mode and double check before handing over cash. If you want to hire someone to do something, then speak out, ask, make a thread, but most importantly be 100% certain that you've done everything possible to minimise the risk.

Its not fair on the site, The staff (Who give their time to help us) to say that they should be doing more when really its us that should be doing more.

Its certainly opened my eyes, I started this thread to enquire about a feedback option, and what i've learnt over the week is, in all honestly, is the fact that WE need to look carefully at how we take on coders/designers, and have we looked at all the risks before handing over cash.

I was all for a feedback system but now, do we really want it to protect ourselves or just as a portal to pass the blame ???

:confused:

[lasto]

We maybe get 1 such a request in themonth, so no need to create a system to relieve the workload of staff.

And how many times do you get told that someone has been scammed Marco ?

[basil2070]

45 yes so far.

[lasto]

45 yes so far.

wont make any difference if there was 5000 for yes as ive found out the hard way.

[nexialys]

globally -- if we have 50 voters, i don't think it would be representative... but if we have 2000, maybe it would be just fair to do something...

as we're at 50 Yes after one full month... that means a lot for everybody!

[TheLastSuperman]

wont make any difference if there was 5000 for yes as ive found out the hard way.

Well actually 5000 might make them move on this ;)

Like some have said... you have honest ones and nasty ones on here - if you don't do your homework then your to blame. Sometimes situations occur like I had recently and lost 3 clients over having to be at the hospital nightly!!! 2 of the 3 I issued refunds on their deposits and the 3rd has not checked his mail? Regardless I try to be fair, honest, and dependable and so do many of you. All I know is this same topic keeps getting brought up, this same issue is made known by the few who have been burnt... Meow, Meow, Meow... (*starts humming the meow-mix song in his head...) I have lost money before, been scammed, and even robbed but after a while you know who to tell the story to and who not to if you catch my drift. It's your responsibility to handle yourself and your site so be careful who you choose and what you do to it plain and simple.

Don't get me wrong.. I would like to see this however I would much rather see other work done here instead of this first... like when a mod is submitted it could ask what versions (more than one to choose) it is compatible with then duplicate the post in the 3.7/3.8 or something like that. I loved the "Developer" added a few months back and other small tweaks/changes I have noticed recently. It just seems others are focusing on the negative when you could be learning how to code yourself and forget the filth that made you feel dirty. Get over it and get back to your forums!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edit: I voted yes... it makes some of what I said look hypocritical but we need it, all I'm trying to say is sh*t or get off the pot already.

[Xtrato]

Great Idea!!!!!

||
\/