My Views On Vbulletin.org

[Gio~Logist]

I've been a contributor here for years now, and I do not regret it one bit for the simple fact that it has brought me a long way. With that said, I still have no doubt in my mind that it's time for a change around here, it's been time for years now as well.

Pasted below is a message I sent over on vb.com to Jelsoft staff. If you guy have any comments on behalf of vb.org, let me know. This post isn't in attempt to start a ruckus, but rather in respect to let you guys know that there is indeed an issue, and what a rational response will be (even if it means me doing it myself). I didn't include any url or anything, so rest assure this isn't an advertisement.

I also want to know in advance that my account here will remain on good graces, as I've heard of a number of people being "asked to leave" recently, and i still have communication with quite a few people on here, so I have no reason to completely leave just yet.

Also, do you guys (the staff here on vb.org) agree with the views on the issues of this website? If so, what's planned as far as improvement? I've waited long enough (as well as quite a few people on here), but if you guys have a very promising plan that you actually are going to stick to, I'm sure a lot of us on here would rather continue working with the community rather than against or away from it.

Not sure if Jelsoft's team is aware. However, vb.org is going through the usual series of top contributors fleeing, members complaining about flaws in the system, etc. To sum it all up, vb.org is not being used to it's fullest potential and jelsoft isn't utilizing it as best as they can. As i've said on various occasions, vbulletin's software owes a great deal of its success to its addons. The modifications created for vbulletin are a great factor for why most people are purchasing the software.

If more focus and dedication was set forth on the website (in addition to actual professionals and coders who can manage the vb.org), things would be much different. The devs over there would benefit a great deal, and jelsoft will benefit as a result. Seeing as how we've been suggesting this for years and yet you guys are still into hiring volunteers who have trouble with the easiest of programming and have almost no sense of people/professional skills, a lot of us don't see this happening any time soon.

With that being said, i plan on releasing a website similar to vb.org for a more professional and clean approach to this matter. Hope there's no problem on Jelsoft's end with that. I'd also love to hear what you guys have to say on the matter, since we don't get to hear from you all too often over there.

Thank you,
Giovanni Martinez

[Marco van Herwaarden]

What makes you think posting this on vB.com will have any result?

If you have something to tell about vB.org, then post it on vB.org. If about vB.com, then post it there.

[Gio~Logist]

Heh. Check out this quote, lets test out the comprehension skills that have been questioned so often on this website.
Pasted below is a message I sent over on vb.com

Does that say a "post i made" or "a message I sent"?

With that being said... As the coordinator here, do you have any valuable to contribute, now that I have posted on vb.org?

[Paul M]

No one has been "asked to leave", not to my knowledge anyway.

Heh. Check out this quote, lets test out the comprehension skills that have been questioned so often on this website.
Once again - comments like this are why most threads like this just go downhill instantly and get closed.

[Gio~Logist]

No one has been "asked to leave", not to my knowledge anyway.


Once again - comments like this are why most threads like this just go downhill instantly and get closed.

I can make sarcastic comments just as good as the next person, that's a given. But i wouldn't make one for the sole purpose of causing a riot. If i make it, it's because i sense ignorance or something of equal disgust in a post.

For example, how about how the vb.org coordinator (who is expected to have rather constructive posts and comments) can make a post like that? You guys know your position, and you guys know that you set the vibe around here. If you make an ignorant post, a post trying to belittle me, or a post that i feel was invaluable based on your role on this website, i will point it out to you.

Getting back on topic, I got a message via AIM of someone being asked to leave via pm on this website. I also know someone personally who is twice as talented as about 80% of the designers here and is eager to post his contributions, but has been banned based on false accusations. I just wanted to make sure the same wouldn't come about here.

Awaiting a constructive and valuable post on behalf of the vb.org staff..

[iogames]

Totally childish on behalf of all of us... some could have better reasons than others, but as community we fall short :(

my .1 cent

[lasto]

I also know someone personally who is twice as talented as about 80% of the designers here and is eager to post his contributions, but has been banned based on false accusations. ..just because they can code does not mean they wont rip people off.
VB.org wont post details of why someone was banned,but they dont just ban on the spur of the moment as they need to check things out 1st,as was the case when i got ripped off on here.
Besides that minor gripe if u want to start up a fresh site for coders m8 your more than welcome to.
The thing with vbulletin these days is not VB.org but the fact that all coders want paying for anything they do,even if its only a minor hack.In the old days people where proud to release a hack and let everyone install it but nowadays we end up with Lite Versions,which in turn force us to pay for the full hack.

[Gio~Logist]

just because they can code does not mean they wont rip people off.
VB.org wont post details of why someone was banned,but they dont just ban on the spur of the moment as they need to check things out 1st,as was the case when i got ripped off on here.
Besides that minor gripe if u want to start up a fresh site for coders m8 your more than welcome to.
The thing with vbulletin these days is not VB.org but the fact that all coders want paying for anything they do,even if its only a minor hack.In the old days people where proud to release a hack and let everyone install it but nowadays we end up with Lite Versions,which in turn force us to pay for the full hack.

I'm not going to argue the status of coders on this forum and how they make the money, as this thread was not intended for that. Bottom line is, you get what you pay for. "In the old days" the economy also wasn't the way it is. Also, "in the old days" not as many people worked as full-time vbulletin developers. Now you have more professional devs and more quality work. The day you or anyone else can learn to fully program and have the time to develop well-written products for free, more power to you/that person.

Also, i was talking in regards to this particular developer (he's not a coder btw, he's a designer) because i know him personally and the fact that he's not a "scammer". Getting scammed is an issue you face all accross the internet, and it also goes hand in hand with doing your research and also "getting what you pay for". You have members on here doing transactions for $1.50, expect to get scammed.

[lasto]

no argument on the status of coders but its a valid point,and i do agree it works both ways.
We all like to think its just people not posting because of one thing or another when in reality the free era is finally over and if u want anything decent then be prepared to dig deep for it.

[Dean C]

Do we really need another thread like this? If you don't like it here, go somewhere else :) It's the internet for heavens sake!

[Shelley_c]

That's funny dean, it wasn't so long ago you were complaining yourself about staff, and you even had the nerve and posted about the staff getting a free license. (heck, I even have the post in PSD format if you like to be reminded). Anyway, This is the official modifications site to .com, you certainly have no right to tell people to leave the thread is within rules policy.

[Guest190829]

I've been a contributor here for years now, and I do not regret it one bit for the simple fact that it has brought me a long way. With that said, I still have no doubt in my mind that it's time for a change around here, it's been time for years now as well.

Pasted below is a message I sent over on vb.com to Jelsoft staff. If you guy have any comments on behalf of vb.org, let me know. This post isn't in attempt to start a ruckus, but rather in respect to let you guys know that there is indeed an issue, and what a rational response will be (even if it means me doing it myself). I didn't include any url or anything, so rest assure this isn't an advertisement.

I also want to know in advance that my account here will remain on good graces, as I've heard of a number of people being "asked to leave" recently, and i still have communication with quite a few people on here, so I have no reason to completely leave just yet.

Also, do you guys (the staff here on vb.org) agree with the views on the issues of this website? If so, what's planned as far as improvement? I've waited long enough (as well as quite a few people on here), but if you guys have a very promising plan that you actually are going to stick to, I'm sure a lot of us on here would rather continue working with the community rather than against or away from it.

Sorry but all I see here is a very insulting message based almost completely on hearsay. You're now attacking the staff's programming abilities? Hm. I'll just move on:

1.) No staff has ever asked any member to leave. I don't know where you're getting your sources from.

2.) Any bans are staff action and will remain private. If your friend feels like he's been dealt with unjustly he can contact the vB.org staff.
3.) We do have plans for improvements, plans that I'm really excited about! Everyone will get more information when the time is ready.

and

4.) Invaluable does not mean lacking value. It means having value beyond estimation; priceless.

[Shelley_c]

To point out on comment number 3 Danny. And it is directly related to the thread and I quote... "We do have plans for improvements" Now, that is where the problem lies. It's your plans and not the suggestions that countless amount of members have made. Are you now saying that only staff will make decisions on what improvements are made? It's one of the reasons why vb.org is still in a stagnated stage as it has been for the past several years.

It's worrying to think that we are simply here to agree with decisions that have so far failed to pull a community together in these times of distress. worrying thought indeed.

[Guest190829]

To point out on comment number 3 Danny. And it is directly related to the thread and I quote... "We do have plans for improvements" Now, that is where the problem lies. It's your plans and not the suggestions that countless amount of members have made. Are you now saying that only staff will make decisions on what improvements are made? It's one of the reasons why vb.org is still in a stagnated stage as it has been for the past several years.

It's worrying to think that we are simply here to agree with decisions that have so far failed to pull a community together in these times of distress. worrying thought indeed.

Not at all Shelley...staff will be implementing the improvements that are to be made..but most of them are directly rooted in the user-feedback threads here.

[veenuisthebest]

vb.org is still in a stagnated stage as it has been for the past several years.


oh man, why do you hate this place so much.

You know this place is run by volunteers (that are basically members like us) and each of them seriously deserves that spot due to their worth.

There's not much sense in blaiming the staff everyday for everything. They DO their work whenever needed and when they have time. Danny DID said just now that they have plans for improvements (in bold), then why not simply wait and watch, everybody has a life. Why not rather focus on improving our own communities ;)

[Gio~Logist]

Sorry but all I see here is a very insulting message based almost completely on hearsay. You're now attacking the staff's programming abilities? Hm. I'll just move on:

1.) No staff has ever asked any member to leave. I don't know where you're getting your sources from.

2.) Any bans are staff action and will remain private. If your friend feels like he's been dealt with unjustly he can contact the vB.org staff.
3.) We do have plans for improvements, plans that I'm really excited about! Everyone will get more information when the time is ready.

and

4.) Invaluable does not mean lacking value. It means having value beyond estimation; priceless.

1) I didn't think so, just something I heard from a member on here over aim. But perhaps they misunderstood or exaggerated (not sure what the case is here).

2) He has, and he believes this is a matter of a personal grudge. So I sent over a message to one of the people on the staff here just to let them know that i vouch for the guy and can probably get quite a few trust-worthy references who will say the same for him.

3) When the time is ready? Are we talking about a website improvement here or Armageddon?"the time is ready" only takes you but so far. The time has been ready, as a matter of fact.. the time has surpassed it's readiness in the views of other members here. This is why people are "ranting". So what about a reasonable response?

4) If I wanted a quote like that, I would be on a parenting forum, not one for official vbulletin modifications. If you're going to defend just exactly why posts made here go others, rather than towards them.. i'm all ears. But please, lets leave the little house on the prairie quotes out for now.

[Shelley_c]

oh man, why do you hate this place so much.

You know this place is run by volunteers (that are basically members like us) and each of them seriously deserves that spot due to their worth.

There's not much sense in blaiming the staff everyday for everything. They DO their work whenever needed and when they have time. Danny DID said just now that they have plans for improvements (in bold), then why not simply wait and watch, everybody has a life. Why not rather focus on improving our own communities ;)

And where does it state that I hate this site so much? If anything, I like vb.org (mainly because of the generous amount of images you can post when submitting material) yeah, it's why I started posting. Anyway, If I hate a site, i wouldn't be contributing to it day in day out.

I make suggestions (which are sound suggestions) Are you arguing that fact? to further better the site from a contributors stance. So what. They are volounteers,so are many of the contributors that submit their contributuions.

Progress needs to be made, And if your one of these type of people that can't see that then you are either someone that doesn't contribute here and downloads all of the hard work that these contributors submit on a daily basis. Your assumption could not be so far off the truth.

[King Kovifor]

2) He has, and he believes this is a matter of a personal grudge. So I sent over a message to one of the people on the staff here just to let them know that i vouch for the guy and can probably get quite a few trust-worthy references who will say the same for him.

3) When the time is ready? Are we talking about a website improvement here or Armageddon?"the time is ready" only takes you but so far. The time has been ready, as a matter of fact.. the time has surpassed it's readiness in the views of other members here. This is why people are "ranting". So what about a reasonable response?

2) This user must be the one to contact us.

3) This most likely means that when they have the features extremely far a long, or are 'ready' to release them, they will be told.

[veenuisthebest]

And where does it state that I hate this site so much? If anything, I like vb.org (mainly because of the generous amount of images you can post when submitting material) yeah, it's why I started posting. Anyway, If I hate a site, i wouldn't be contributing to it day in day out.

I make suggestions (which are sound suggestions) Are you arguing that fact? to further better the site from a contributors stance. So what. They are volounteers,so are many of the contributors that submit their contributuions.

Progress needs to be made, And if your one of these type of people that can't see that then you are either someone that doesn't contribute here and downloads all of the hard work that these contributors submit on a daily basis. Your assumption could not be so far off the truth.
oops.. you get mad so easily... :D

I make suggestions (which are sound suggestions) Are you arguing that fact?

Yes, I am. Coz you suggest too much. What if a member suggest you something everyday. maybe that is why you do not have a feedback forum on your site.

And if your one of these type of people that can't see that then you are either someone that doesn't contribute here and downloads all of the hard work that these contributors submit on a daily basis


well, its free to download things from here, there's no policy as such that we need to exchange things. And yes, I am no way ANY kind of coder, so i have nothing to give, its that simple.

[Gio~Logist]

oops.. you get mad so easily... :D



Yes, I am. Coz you suggest too much. What if a member suggest you something everyday. maybe that is why you do not have a feedback forum on your site.



well, its free to download things from here, there's no policy as such that we need to exchange things. And yes, I am no way ANY kind of coder, so i have nothing to give, its that simple.

I'm sure if the member posting these suggestions was a very good contributor of the website, she'd have no problem at all, and neither will a lot of other people here.

2) This user must be the one to contact us.

3) This most likely means that when they have the features extremely far a long, or are 'ready' to release them, they will be told.

2) Ok i'm done with this topic seriously you guys are focusing way too much on this aspect of my post. Yet, those are the kind of things that are actually "kept private", go figure. He messaged you guys, but supposedly there's a grudge going on. So, i vouched for him and offered the fact that i know a load of other credible people that will do the same. Now, lets move on.

3) And you don't feel that a status like this (one of "still not ready") gets old and unacceptable/impossible to understand after a while?

[Shelley_c]

oops.. you get mad so easily... :D



Yes, I am. Coz you suggest too much. What if a member suggest you something everyday. maybe that is why you do not have a feedback forum on your site.



well, its free to download things from here, there's no policy as such that we need to exchange things. And yes, I am no way ANY kind of coder, so i have nothing to give, its that simple.


I'm not mad at you though. I just have an org policy fever placed upon me of not using smilies left,right and center. Smilies are for special occaisions. And this isn't one of them, or maybe it is? maybe. go on... just for you. ;)

My members don't need to suggest continuously because i give them what they want, I focus on one thing and I dedicate in focusing on the niche I'm providing to the public.

Yes, your free to download, It's within your right. But once you start to contribute, you'll see the many flaws in the system that have been their for many years (about the same time I joined). Progress, progress we all want it.

[Guest190829]

Okay before this topic goes out of control....

User suggestions have two components:

1.) They identify a problem.

2.) They offer a solution to the problem.

A perfect suggestion would identify a problem and offer the best solution to address the issue. When a suggestion doesn't do this, however, it's the staff's job to evaluate the problem and come up with the optimal solution.

Mostly all the suggestions here always identify a valid problem within the community, however, a lot of the bigger issues need to be fleshed out more in order to find the correct solution. The worst scenario I can imagine is implementing something that does not fix the problem it was meant too. ($700 Billion bail out anyone??)

That's why we are "not ready" to announce our plans, things still need to be finalize. If you don't like that answer, than I'm sorry...but it's the plan truth. We are not going to rush anything, that leads to bad decisions.

Hopefully this answers both Gio and Shelley.

[veenuisthebest]

I'm not mad at you though. I just have an org policy fever placed upon me of not using smilies left,right and center. Smilies are for special occaisions. And this isn't one of them, or maybe it is? maybe. go on... just for you. ;)

My members don't need to suggest continuously because i give them what they want, I focus on one thing and I dedicate in focusing on the niche I'm providing to the public.

Yes, your free to download, It's within your right. But once you start to contribute, you'll see the many flaws in the system that have been their for many years (about the same time I joined). Progress, progress we all want it.
ah you're cool now it seems, see it feels so good reading cool comments ;)

btw.. i had experienced fun for the first time at vborg posting at the feedback forum ha ha. hmmm.. now i understand why people give so many feedbacks :D:D

off me go...

[Sawa Dee SohL]

I see all this talk about 'suggestions' and then I see someone say someone else suggested to much.

....

When someone SEES a change, that they have suggested, I'm sure they will back down - but from what I have seen since I've been here, and the months I lurked before, it's not changing, and won't for a while.

The 'Feedback' here is just a place for us to contact the staff, outside of PM - All I have ever seen in a DECENT response on that forum is 'sound idea, maybe in the future'

Granted I don't know much about coding/designing - but I've been around Forums for a LONG time and I know how they run, and how a community is. This site fails in having the Staff/Team communicate with the community and make it better, for the members part.

[Gio~Logist]

Okay before this topic goes out of control....

User suggestions have two components:

1.) They identify a problem.

2.) They offer a solution to the problem.

A perfect suggestion would identify a problem and offer the best solution to address the issue. When a suggestion doesn't do this, however, it's the staff's job to evaluate the problem and come up with the optimal solution.

Mostly all the suggestions here always identify a valid problem within the community, however, a lot of the bigger issues need to be fleshed out more in order to find the correct solution. The worst scenario I can imagine is implementing something that does not fix the problem it was meant too. ($700 Billion bail out anyone??)

That's why we are "not ready" to announce our plans, things still need to be finalize. If you don't like that answer, than I'm sorry...but it's the plan truth. We are not going to rush anything, that leads to bad decisions.

Hopefully this answers both Gio and Shelley.

----------------------------
--- Your Version --
User suggestions have two components:

1.) They identify a problem.

2.) They offer a solution to the problem.

--- Our Version --
User suggestions have three components:

1.) They identify a problem.

2.) They offer a solution to the problem.

3.) They deal with the problem (and some have to work around it) for years

----------------------------

That's why we are "not ready" to announce our plans, things still need to be finalize. If you don't like that answer, than I'm sorry...but it's the plan truth. We are not going to rush anything, that leads to bad decisions.
I don't know how plan truth your plan is, but i have no doubt that it's plain. And at what point of your solution does the response time pass the "rushed" state and enter the "reasonable" state? "Our version" is that we've been well passed the rushed state. And at what point in your plan does the truth stop being "plain" and start being a reality? ;)

Anyways, it's starting to get pointless arguing with you guys, seriously. Not to be blunt about the situation but like i said before, I don't blame you guys... I blame the structure. Maybe we're expecting too much from a group of volunteers as oppose to a group of professionals. As a vb.org coordinator, does Marco have anything else valid to say about this or are the admins the only ones giving the information here?

[Guest190829]

You posted your thread in the Site Feedback, so you're going to get responses from the vB.org staff. If you were just looking for a response from Marco, you should of just stopped at your message to vBulletin.com.

To be honest, I don't know what you are even suggesting anymore. If you want to create your own structure with your own site, no one is stopping you. Maybe you'll have the opportunity to realize the reality of managing a large community.

To anyone who actually cares about the improvements to the community, expect more information in the near future. Thread closed.