Confused with mod makers?

[merk_aus]

First of all I would like to thank you for reading my post, please note that I am not trying to start an arguement, am not taking a swipe at coders or programers I am just asking a question.

I spend alot of time at this website, reading through almost all messages, seeing everyones posts and comments, and problems and all that type of thing.

I have one major question however - in both the Custom Work Paid and Unpaid areas you see there are a number of threads inwhich have a large number of posts (when you could reply to threads before it was all changed around) requesting a hack and then having many people agree that the mod was exactly what they wanted etc.

I am just wondering why we have here like 15 different types of rating thread modifications released for 3.7.x, however many members are calling for and willing to pay for a brand new vbookie mod to be made.

Now I know the original creator of vbookie is no longer around, and the person who took it over made a change or two and then no longer supports it and refuses to give people to take it over and morph it into something great.

There are many members who would love to have a new one created same functions just updated a bit, many are offering to pay etc.

And not just the vbookie mod - there are plenty out there - so my question is why do coders/programers continue to make mods that have like 15 different versions of it however do not make mods that are different or actually wanted -

I just want to understand like I said I am not having a go at anyone etc, is it the time involved in creating something that would be highly popular, or whether it is just lack of knowledge (I dont mean coding knowledge i mean knowledge into the mods people want).

I do apologize I just thought if there were 500 people who wanted a certain mod and all are willing to pay is it not worth spending a week or a couple of weeks on coding it and releasing it as even a premium mod for $20 or something like that? wouldn't that make $10000 for a couple weeks work?

Sorry i really am just trying to understand why so many mods that are more or less the same continue to be released when ones wanted arent done?

Thank you all for your time.

[Winterworks]

That was a long read.

Some people want modifications that are like others, but with a few other things added, just because. They don't want to use a free modification, because everyone has it, and they want to be original.

[merk_aus]

Fair enough - I do thank you for responding and sorry about the read like i said i spend alot of time on here and have seen many threads come up with many people wanting the same thing and yet no one takes the job on.

Your explanation does explain some and i can understand it. I do thank you for your reply.

[nexialys]

vBookie is owned by a coder who did not give permission to take-over his work, so nobody have the permission to rework it... it's the same for a lot of work done on this site... abandonned hacks are not supported, and that's why some people ask for paid jobs to upgrade them because they want them bad...

i know about it, my site is filled with took-over work, not supported, to be updated, etc... a lot of coders do not care, but the ones with master engines like vbookie are not so easy to negociate with. remember that some coders were paid to code these engines, even if the releases are free...

[merk_aus]

yeah I understand that - vbookie was probably a bad example to use i just meant looking through the request for paid services thread back when u could reply and saw so many mods that had so many replies saying:-

"Yeah I would pay for this mod to"

and yet no one ever took it on it just confused me why someone wouldnt jump at opportunity to make some cash thats all.

[nexialys]

that's copyright, respect of credits, respect of the rules.. you need the author's agreement to do all these.... the ones who are doing it otherway are cheaters, cheap labors...

[merk_aus]

like i said vbookie was probably a bad example but i have said numerous times in reply to you and others it is not just that there are other current ideas floating around as to which is currently not a mod anywhere and no one wants to touch it.

So i do not know how many more times i have to say it - Not just vBookie there are others that have not ever been made and yet are plenty of people wanting the same thing made.

And seem you want to keep bringing up vBookie despite numerous times saying that it was a bad idea to use it as an example it was just that AN EXAMPLE!

But seem you want to continuously bring it up - what if someone wrote a script from scratch, with simular features to vbookie, just better set up, different queries made, different format - if everything is done from scratch how is it breach of copyright if someone made it from scratch.

And further check your information on it before playing God on these forums - the original creator of vBookie did pass it on to someone else who then ported it to later versions of vbulletin and then that person then stopped supporting it and refused to allow anyone else to port it.

[nexialys]

i did not mention vBookie in my last post, for a reason... most of the requests you name are for copying existing hacks, upgrading them, or the will to have some new features...

the problem is that 90% of these requests are made like "i have a small request, very small, so small that it does not deserve a good pay"... the problem is that you, as a client, do not know how much work it would take to make these requests made, and usually, when we bring the budget, you flee... or scam the coder when the release is ready. that's why most of the coders here do not bother to answer these requests anymore...

as an example, vBookie or iTrader built from scratch would require like 10 000 lines of code, like they are already built... do you have that time to spend for free or mostly for free ?!... even if there are some codes we can copy/paste from vBulletin itself, we need to test them, recode them, redesign, translate phrases etc... even at 20$/h, it would be more like 5000$, not 25$ like most of the guys here are ready to put on table.

and actually i play god on this forum because i am... you can't judge me by the answers i give. you are just not happy with the answer, that's why you bring this situation... and yes, i have the permission to port it (with some restrictions): do you have the budget to pay me full time on it?!

[merk_aus]

Ok two things just quickly - first off Yes IF I wanted vbookie totally redesigned, and recoded to have certain features and remove other features and have this and that and all that type of thing I do have the budget to pay A CODER to work on it fulltime.

I was not asking anyone to make it, or any other mod this topic has been taken off topic due to the fact that i used vbookie as an example - the point i was trying to get across was why the same mods are being released over and over and over just by different coders yet they all do the same thing, when there are other things out there that could be bigger and better that could be turned into a paid addon that would make some great cash.

Secondly I did not judge you by the answer you gave me as this whhole thing has been taken off topic as stated above - i judged you from all the posts from you that i have read today and on previous days where you think what you say is golden and if someone doesnt agree with u they are the ones with the problem.

This is meant to be a community where people communicate with others and discuss things - its not a place for Nexia to try and reign supreme.

I have nothing against you man seriously nothing at all and dont want to turn this into a flaming post - the point i was trying to get across was not about vbookie or modding any other mod - it was a large number of great ideas on this site that have had numerous replies from people wanting it yet no one made it - i thought in my head it could be a cash cow for a coder who went looking in the requests for paid mod etc and made one or two of the hacks and turn it into a pro-addon and charge something reasonable like $20 and see the money role in.

It was just an observation and i just wanted to understand why a coder didnt do it

[nexialys]

it's a "cash cow" for a lot of coders actually, you just do not see it in front of your eyes...

for one reason: when someone ask a tool to be coded in the paid services requests, 95% of the time you will not have any echoes of the results... the clients keep their secrets, they do not even care to say if they are satisfied or not... because it is their right as a client. for the non-paid requests, i can say frankly that 75% of them are just waited to be reposted in the paid services forum, because the coders here need to get paid to code... even if the credits are good, that does not bring food on their table!

and yes, i actually reign as a moron on this community, my words are not golden, they are diamond... they help you reword your requests to make them more understandable when they are not pointed correctly in the first post...

and i was not focussing on vBookie either, i just did not break the mood by naming other hacks that could need a rehearsal... there is too much of them, and actually they are now to be reworked on my own site.. lol

btw, your opinion about my replies all over the place are just flawed by the fact that you are a client, not an executor... you are not the one who get to work with the clients... it's like when you go to McDonalds, you do not have to suffer the 1000 clients who ask for something that is not on the menu...

you also have to remember one detail: this site is not for freelancers to execute requests, but is a sharing community of coders giving their work for free... so reading all the requests is not the goal of all the coders here. some of the available coders are giving time to answer the requests they think can be possible, that does not mean the bigger projects are abandonned, it just mean the guys have no time to focus on that.

actually, you posted this thread which could be simply added to the existing one here: https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/showthread.php?t=192992 ... posted by a coder from the dark side of things, but it's the same kind of comments -- even if you are not refering to free-work, but to the execution of it... it goes in the same path... time, resources, power, credits... all the same reasons that make vb.org a community of sharing, not a freelancing site... :)

[merk_aus]

like i said the first reply in this thread answered the question -

I now understand alot better of the way things work i just thought if a coder saw something that had for example 100 replies all wanting the same thing in someones head they would here the cash register 'cha ching' and will make it and release as a paid add on or something.

I do understand that coders dont have all the spare time in the world, hell neither do us 'little' guys who are setting up forums, being a web designer i do know i hardly have spare time that i can just give out - so i have nothing against paying someone to help, if i get a free mod on here that has some huge impact on my site i try to make handy donations to the coder, and the ones that do not add much i try to donate at least something if i can - although honestly it sometimes slips my mind when i download something just to check it out.

thanks for your replies as i said i just thought the coders could be making even more money than they do at the current moment by forfilling some of the most sought after hacks i know i would give my backing both ideas/suggestion and support wise along with financially if people wanted to enter together to make some paid addons that are highly sort after haha yes the cha ching is ringing in my head.

[Dream]

Coders usually do what they think are fun doing, or that they would use it themselves.

It's very uncommon for someone to spend a month coding something for free that they won't use, and then have to support it, out of the goodness of their hearts.

Popular mods are also the worst to support.

Vbookie in particular is a hard mod to do, not everyone could code it, or have the vbulletin knowledge to do it.

Anyway, thats how I understand things are, I could be wrong.

--------------- Added 04 Nov 2008 at 01:27 ---------------

ps: also vbookie is so tied to vbulletin system, that any minor changes makes it need to be recoded, which is also a factor when a coder choose projects (or it should at least)

[TheLastSuperman]

IMO, I don't make mods to charge people. I believe when you pay for VB the mods should be free (STRICTLY IMO).... Although before any of you jump my post - I have very few and some not even posted here yet however I only have time to support a few. I believe if you wanted to charge then you should be looking for work not the other way around. Maybe it's the name (TLS) but I will NEVER charge - only ask for donations. I do free websites too however I DO charge for some special requests due to the time so I see all points being made here as valid no matter if you charge/don't charge it just depends on how you make a stand when and where plus how you are perceived. So basically I think the question was good but the answer cannot be simply given, only perceived ;).

S-MAN

[nexialys]

hey TLS, i suppose you make a living of something else ?!... some coders don't... that's why they focus on salary... Jelsoft focus on profits too, or they would be closed... check out: installation of a vBulletin forum: 150$... it's mostly the same cost as the license itself... and they did not code a thing, just clicked 13 times before the install is done...

so imagine someone coding a 20 000 lines hack... which is different from a template modification or a new permission... ;)

[merk_aus]

Coders usually do what they think are fun doing, or that they would use it themselves.

It's very uncommon for someone to spend a month coding something for free that they won't use, and then have to support it, out of the goodness of their hearts.

Popular mods are also the worst to support.

Vbookie in particular is a hard mod to do, not everyone could code it, or have the vbulletin knowledge to do it.

Anyway, thats how I understand things are, I could be wrong.

--------------- Added 04 Nov 2008 at 01:27 ---------------

ps: also vbookie is so tied to vbulletin system, that any minor changes makes it need to be recoded, which is also a factor when a coder choose projects (or it should at least)


See what happens when you skim a topic instead of reading, as explained numerous times (and now i see why people get responses like Nexia's cause its annoying saying the same things over and over) - I did not ask a coder to do work for free, only pointing out the potential cash cow if the right topic was read and mod made, secondly vBookie was used as an example - it is not a code i want redesigned, or anything, infact i am currently in the process of phasing vbookie out of my forums as with the total rewrite of vb4 this would not work - so as said vbookie was not a script i was after and mentioned many times it was an example, i did not ask a coder to code something for free.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

To answer the original question, Dream is very close.

There are basically 2 types of coders around on vB.org (using coders as example, but same applies to Designers).

The occasional/hobby coder:
- Will code (mostly) for fun. Will often release his work for free.
- Will most likely code for his own website/interest and will release it when it can serve more people. This is most likely also the reason why you will find more modifications on the same topic: each has been developed for the own board of the coder without looking at existing modifications.
- Might take a paid/unpaid request, but only if the topic is also of interest to the coder and time needed is limited.

The profesional/fulltime coder:
- Will not look at the free requests in most cases. Might pick the best suggestions to release a few free modifications that will get high installs in order to advertise his knowledge and to get more paid orders.
- Will not take any low paid requests. Very likely mostly interested the better paying (time versus money) jobs.

Then there are members who will take the lesser paying (often non-coding) requests. Often members who are still not considered an expert are taking these jobs and the taker will often use it to learn while on the job.

[Gio~Logist]

To answer the original question, Dream is very close.

There are basically 2 types of coders around on vB.org (using coders as example, but same applies to Designers).

The occasional/hobby coder:
- Will code (mostly) for fun. Will often release his work for free.
- Will most likely code for his own website/interest and will release it when it can serve more people. This is most likely also the reason why you will find more modifications on the same topic: each has been developed for the own board of the coder without looking at existing modifications.
- Might take a paid/unpaid request, but only if the topic is also of interest to the coder and time needed is limited.

The profesional/fulltime coder:
- Will not look at the free requests in most cases. Might pick the best suggestions to release a few free modifications that will get high installs in order to advertise his knowledge and to get more paid orders.
- Will not take any low paid requests. Very likely mostly interested the better paying (time versus money) jobs.

Then there are members who will take the lesser paying (often non-coding) requests. Often members who are still not considered an expert are taking these jobs and the taker will often use it to learn while on the job.

Bingo :up:

[merk_aus]

thanks everyone for your input i understand alot better now and like i said i didnt want to start arguements, i was just asking a question to better understand.

Thank you to all who have replied i do appreciate you taking your time.

[SVTCobraLTD]

I did not read this whole thread but the first 3 or so posts. vBookie is a good example I think. Like the original poster said, there are tons of the same style hacks out there. Why does someone not release a different type of bookie system that is compatible with the newer versions of vB? Just because the author will not allow someone to work with his code, doesn't mean we should just give up on the idea. vBookie is a great hack (for me) and it would be nice is someone came up with a new version since there are so many that want it for 3.7.x and soon 3.8.

[Digital Jedi]

First of all I would like to thank you for reading my post, please note that I am not trying to start an arguement, am not taking a swipe at coders or programers I am just asking a question.

I spend alot of time at this website, reading through almost all messages, seeing everyones posts and comments, and problems and all that type of thing.

I have one major question however - in both the Custom Work Paid and Unpaid areas you see there are a number of threads inwhich have a large number of posts (when you could reply to threads before it was all changed around) requesting a hack and then having many people agree that the mod was exactly what they wanted etc.

I am just wondering why we have here like 15 different types of rating thread modifications released for 3.7.x, however many members are calling for and willing to pay for a brand new vbookie mod to be made.

Now I know the original creator of vbookie is no longer around, and the person who took it over made a change or two and then no longer supports it and refuses to give people to take it over and morph it into something great.

There are many members who would love to have a new one created same functions just updated a bit, many are offering to pay etc.

And not just the vbookie mod - there are plenty out there - so my question is why do coders/programers continue to make mods that have like 15 different versions of it however do not make mods that are different or actually wanted -

I just want to understand like I said I am not having a go at anyone etc, is it the time involved in creating something that would be highly popular, or whether it is just lack of knowledge (I dont mean coding knowledge i mean knowledge into the mods people want).

I do apologize I just thought if there were 500 people who wanted a certain mod and all are willing to pay is it not worth spending a week or a couple of weeks on coding it and releasing it as even a premium mod for $20 or something like that? wouldn't that make $10000 for a couple weeks work?

Sorry i really am just trying to understand why so many mods that are more or less the same continue to be released when ones wanted arent done?

Thank you all for your time.
Well, I don't know what (or why) the fire fight that ensued was about, and I didn't quite bother to read that portion of the thread, but I'll say this much. I think it's largely a matter of the fact that since this a free service, it's going to be more a matter of inspiration then it would be demand.

To give a slightly similar example, I took over the media definitions threads for AME when the first two thread starters just ran into some problems on the personal side of things. But I did so, largely because I realized I had a knack for Regular Expressions which I did not know I had until I investgated how the definitions worked, but more importantly, I loved the AME modification. So for me, and I imagine it would be largely the same all around, it's a matter of inspiration first and foremost. I know I've started a couple of projects that when I look at them now, I don't know what I was thinking. It would be hard for me to find the will power to want to do it, even if there was a great demand for the work (which there is). I think even offer of payment wouldn't be enough to squirrel me off my seat. So likely that's going to the number one reason behind why we don't see certain things made, even though we see a great demand for it.

Conversely, there's no doubt a lot of people who'd go ahead and do their own versions of some defunct or demanded mods, but they just don't have know how to do it. I know I've had a gaming mod in mind for over a year know, but it's physical execution is just way out my league for the time being.

[TheLastSuperman]

hey TLS, i suppose you make a living of something else ?!... some coders don't... that's why they focus on salary... Jelsoft focus on profits too, or they would be closed... check out: installation of a vBulletin forum: 150$... it's mostly the same cost as the license itself... and they did not code a thing, just clicked 13 times before the install is done...

so imagine someone coding a 20 000 lines hack... which is different from a template modification or a new permission... ;)

$150 :eek: :erm: :confused:

Well....

Hmmm....

:erm:

I thinks' we need to help each other more and quit spending time trying coding for a living and actually do it or get a job. Did you check the thread for payed request... there was a 40 hr a week listing in their w/ benefits but your complaining about doing it for a living? A real job (full time coder, construction worker, accountant, or cashier etc.) pays the bills and then in your spare time you help others, if they request something more than you typically offer, charge them otherwise they should simply take the time to figure it out themselves. I have not read all the replies in this thread because it will continue to become more of everyone trying to force agreement to their point of view. Open your perspective and let's just deal with what we have and be happy else it's the same old song and dance...

Buy it or don't else learn, all I know is there's way to many people on here beating dead mules ;)

S-MAN

[NoeJeko]

There are basically 2 types of coders around on vB.org (using coders as example, but same applies to Designers).

And then there's the hybrids.

To date I've done 14 major hacks for vBulletin - only one was released on vB.org and I've only taken 1 paid request from here. There's a myriad of reasons why I don't release/don't take paid jobs but I'll give the most prevalent:


A mod I've done "for fun" may have no value outside of a specific type of community
A mod I've done may be for a paid customer and cannot be released
A mod I've done may have some sort of proprietary technology that I cannot legally release due to NDAs
A person may be requesting a mod that will take me a month to complete (with my current workload) and 20,000 lines of code and is offering $100 for it.


Anything I release to vB.org will be marked as "supported" - but if it's a free mod that I've done it's very last priority - the projects that pay the bills are prioritized first (I do vB hacks/other web projects for a company as a job). It doesn't mean I'll ignore it - but it also means I can't guarantee a 48 hour turnaround for bugfixes. If I had more free time, however, you'd probably see more "freebies" pop up from me here as I do enjoy it and like giving back to the community when I have time. After all, I'm a self-taught C/PHP developer and Linux admin and I learned by watching what everyone else did and then taking it to the next level =]