Duplicate Mods

[Lizard King]

As there is an active ranking system on vbulletin.org for coders and designers , why dont you guys allow duplicate mods.

Instead of duplicate ods , it can be solved by choosing multiple vbulletin versions. Currently people release same mod with no single change on different sections on board which makes the ranking system in accurate.

[Guest190829]

I think it good suggestion, right now forum based separation is flawed in my opinion. Perhaps we can incorporate threads tags for this...it's really what tagging is all about when basic ontological separation is too limited.

[nexialys]

Hey Danny, that would mean we switch the site to 3.7 at least, so maybe an analysis IN PUBLIC of how the coders see the situation and how WE can bring solutions for the older stuff too ???

because sorry for my arrogance, but all the times, these decisions are debated in private, discussed for X minutes, and abandonned, cached or stored for future references... and nothing is never done.

[Brad]

As there is an active ranking system on vbulletin.org for coders and designers , why dont you guys allow duplicate mods.

Instead of duplicate ods , it can be solved by choosing multiple vbulletin versions. Currently people release same mod with no single change on different sections on board which makes the ranking system in accurate.
While a lot of modifications don't require it; I've been ranting for years about the fact that we need "project webpages" like they have on sourceforge. For anyone that isn't up to speed with what I'm talking about see; http://sourceforge.net/projects/sierra-php/ for an example.

Some key things I've been wanting to see for awhile;

- Ability to upload/host multiple copies of the software. I know this is possible with the current attachment system but I'd like to see something more user friendly (like having them listed by version number).

- Sub-forums for modifications. The main ones we need; Support, Bug reports, General Development.

- Ability to browse a modifications source code before downloading it. Hosting the modifications in a repo system. (I'll get to this in a second).

- Ability to have an "FAQ" on our modification's page.

- A way to update users outside of sending e-mails and editing threads. We need a way to post news about our modifications.

Going back to storing modifications in a repo; It'd be neat if I could download and install modifications directly from my admincp (*hint*).

[Guest190829]

Hey Danny, that would mean we switch the site to 3.7 at least, so maybe an analysis IN PUBLIC of how the coders see the situation and how WE can bring solutions for the older stuff too ???

because sorry for my arrogance, but all the times, these decisions are debated in private, discussed for X minutes, and abandonned, cached or stored for future references... and nothing is never done.

In any administration (and I'm not just talking about online communities here) most of the discussion and planning is done privately.

Have you ever heard of the old saying "too many cooks in the kitchen?" I have, and I've also experienced it far too many times...talk about things never getting done.

And your arrogance aside, you have no idea what goes behind the scenes of vBulletin.org so it's really not accurate or fair to say how many "minutes" these topics are discussed.

As a user, you're suggestions are invaluable. I don't know how many times I've said that no suggestions are ignored. Leave the administration aspects of this site to the staff. Trust me, it's for the better.

And I don't want this turning into another needless argument or debate, so please just don't even bother. Please, only post directly about the suggestion topic.

[Lizard King]

While a lot of modifications don't require it; I've been ranting for years about the fact that we need "project webpages" like they have on sourceforge. For anyone that isn't up to speed with what I'm talking about see; http://sourceforge.net/projects/sierra-php/ for an example.

Some key things I've been wanting to see for awhile;

- Ability to upload/host multiple copies of the software. I know this is possible with the current attachment system but I'd like to see something more user friendly (like having them listed by version number).

- Sub-forums for modifications. The main ones we need; Support, Bug reports, General Development.

- Ability to browse a modifications source code before downloading it. Hosting the modifications in a repo system. (I'll get to this in a second).

- Ability to have an "FAQ" on our modification's page.

- A way to update users outside of sending e-mails and editing threads. We need a way to post news about our modifications.

Going back to storing modifications in a repo; It'd be neat if I could download and install modifications directly from my admincp (*hint*).

I agree that modification pages can be improved. Supplying each modification a page of its own is a good idea but i honestly dont think it is possible to handle this while allowing comments and bug reports on same place. That why it may not be possible.

My main reason for suggesting this is directly related to vBulletin.org's Coder ranking system. https://vborg.vbsupport.ru/vborg_miscactions.php?do=shownewreleases&type=1 follow this link and you'll see what i mean. nearly 90% of this releases are duplicate of even 3.6 version nearly. This way coders double or triple their release and install number.

I personally donot release anything at vb.org for various reasons but people depend on coder rankings for paid modifications which may mix their mind up.

Danny's tag solution may work or custom fields can be used such as coders can choose which versions the mod will work with.

This is also a problem on coders side since he needs to support the product in two different threads.

[Paul M]

While it is true that releasing the same mod in two areas (like 3.6 and 3.7) will affect the coders ranking, it wont actually have as big an effect as some think - as each area has a preset weighting, so mods in the 3.6 area do not count as much as mods in the 3.7 area. The older the version, the less weight it has.

If the site was starting from scratch then we wouldnt have seperate areas, there would be some sort of version system in the release thread to show which vb versions it was valid for. However, doing this now would cause a huge headache and potentially tons of work trying to get all existing releases to use a new system. Besides which there are often minor differences between releases anyway.

Maybe when vb 4.0 comes out a new system may be looked at, since its likely that 99% of existing mods will need to be updated and re-released at that point, I think any change before then is highly unlikely.

[nexialys]

/me have to applause Paul M for this answer...

cheers !

[Dean C]

While it is true that releasing the same mod in two areas (like 3.6 and 3.7) will affect the coders ranking, it wont actually have as big an effect as some think - as each area has a preset weighting, so mods in the 3.6 area do not count as much as mods in the 3.7 area. The older the version, the less weight it has.

If the site was starting from scratch then we wouldnt have seperate areas, there would be some sort of version system in the release thread to show which vb versions it was valid for. However, doing this now would cause a huge headache and potentially tons of work trying to get all existing releases to use a new system. Besides which there are often minor differences between releases anyway.

Maybe when vb 4.0 comes out a new system may be looked at, since its likely that 99% of existing mods will need to be updated and re-released at that point, I think any change before then is highly unlikely.

I hope those weights don't change over time. I released a lot here a long time ago, and whilst those hacks don't apply to many boards these days, they did at the time.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Yes they do change over time with new vB versions released.

[Princeton]

I hope those weights don't change over time. I released a lot here a long time ago, and whilst those hacks don't apply to many boards these days, they did at the time.yes, they do
the idea is to promote/benefit "active" coders

[Dean C]

yes, they do
the idea is to promote/benefit "active" coders

I can see the point, but as someone who contributed a while ago now, it's kind of a kick in the teeth.

[Gio~Logist]

Danny dude, lol I actually had trusted you more than to say something like "as a user your suggestions are invaluable". Lets take a look at the user to staff ratio and just how much of any website's success is due to "their users". Or am I missing something here?

It's agreed that the mods system needs improvement, even Paul was able to admit to that. The fact that you guys are waiting till vb4, although I do share the restlessness that others do for better organization, is understandable due to the fact that vb4 will bring an immense amount of changes. But the key here is just always knowing where there's need for improvement, especially when the suggestions are made from members who posted modifications here for free.

[Guest190829]

Danny dude, lol I actually had trusted you more than to say something like "as a user your suggestions are invaluable". Lets take a look at the user to staff ratio and just how much of any website's success is due to "their users". Or am I missing something here?



Not sure what you mean, Gio?


invaluable:
of great value; costly, precious, priceless; very useful
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/invaluable


I think it's best if we wait until vB 4 as our entire back end will have to be rewritten anyway.

[Shelley_c]

I think what's gio's saying danny is, if members can post their free modifications, and spend their valuable time in creating them to bettering this site then the staff can atleast get off their backside and start improving the modifcation system instead of coming up with the "same old, same old" aka "lets wait for *inserts vbulletin revision here*". Yeah, it's a lot of work, but so are the free modifications, styles & graphics that members spend their time creating and post here.

The "let's wait for armageddon" is getting old and you don't have to look far in this thread that members aka contributors are fustrated.

[Paul M]

The staff will do what they have the time for, simple as that. No amount of criticising them by yourself (which you seem very good at) will change the fact that they have a life outside of vb.

Surprising as it may be, this website is not the most important thing in my life, nor I imagine any of the other volunteers who run it.

At some point we will probably upgrade to 3.8, it is extremely unlikely any other major changes will be made to the basic way the site works (before 4.0).

Thats the reality of the situation.

[Ryan Ashbrook]

I think it's best if we wait until vB 4 as our entire back end will have to be rewritten anyway.

I can understand that. Seeing as vB4 is supposedly going to finally nix all of the old code, and start from scratch as far as backend goes. It's the perfect time to just dive in and rewrite the Modifications System, especially when it comes to something as big as the Mods System.

[smacklan]

Surprising as it may be, this website is not the most important thing in my life, nor I imagine any of the other volunteers who run it.

It's not surprising at all Paul, since you all are volunteers. The time has long passed that this site should be manned by paid staff (not just Marco). I know you don't like to hear it, but nobody forced any of you to take on the job and if it sucks that bad perhaps you should step aside? Remember, we're not trolls here, but paying customers just like yourself ;)

[Paul M]

Remember, we're not trolls here, but paying customers just like yourself ;)
Also remember that you are not a paying customer of this site.

[Gio~Logist]

Also remember that you are not a paying customer of this site.

I've come to the conclusion that maybe we can't really blame you guys then? I mean, the same way we don't pay for the site, you guys don't get paid to manage it. So maybe we expect too much from the staff here? Maybe we just see vb and the opportunities and expect more than you guys are indeed capable of, which is totally understandable. I mean, it's not like the staff is loaded with the top coders and professionals in the vb world so maybe we should cut you all some slack.

Coffee on me :p

[nexialys]

Hum, you also have to consider that all the staff here is volunteer but two... (stop whinning about the count, we know who they are) ... volunteer VOLUNTEERED to the job, they are not forced here, BUT also are not obliged to be there forever... if they feel they can't do more, they can quit, they can simply leave their situation to someone else.

the point with all these situations is that some staff always complaint that they can't do all the job, they can't focus on the code all the time, blah blah... so why be on the staff if you can't do a thing?! that is pathetic to see how it's going when the staff start complaining that they are exhausted, have no time, etc... if you have no time, just let the ones with time do it...

in the last weeks, i saw more whinning from the staff having no time than members complaining about tasks that are undone... why?!... in real business, we would call it "depression"... burn-out.

i rarely see the staff announce that "we've done it, we're doing great things"... it's always "we have no time, we can't do it, you ask too much..."

[smacklan]

Also remember that you are not a paying customer of this site.Wrong and you know it. This site is owned by Jelsoft and only licensed vbulletin owners can download the resources here. Just what exactly are you trying to say with that comment?

[King Kovifor]

Hum, you also have to consider that all the staff here is volunteer but two... (stop whinning about the count, we know who they are) ... volunteer VOLUNTEERED to the job, they are not forced here, BUT also are not obliged to be there forever... if they feel they can't do more, they can quit, they can simply leave their situation to someone else.

the point with all these situations is that some staff always complaint that they can't do all the job, they can't focus on the code all the time, blah blah... so why be on the staff if you can't do a thing?! that is pathetic to see how it's going when the staff start complaining that they are exhausted, have no time, etc... if you have no time, just let the ones with time do it...

in the last weeks, i saw more whinning from the staff having no time than members complaining about tasks that are undone... why?!... in real business, we would call it "depression"... burn-out.

i rarely see the staff announce that "we've done it, we're doing great things"... it's always "we have no time, we can't do it, you ask too much..."

The only ones that can actually 'do stuff' on here (code wise) is administrators.

[nexialys]

Wrong and you know it. This site is owned by Jelsoft and only licensed vbulletin owners can download the resources here. Just what exactly are you trying to say with that comment?

i suppose Paul means we could find another place where we would pay some pros to release the same kind of hacks, and we would have a better service so we could whine if we are not happy, because we pay for.

the problem is that we paid our license to have access to this site, we all did... this is not a privilege though, we have to behave... but suggesting things to change is permitted when Paul take over a thread, it's whinning...

--------------- Added 1225565254 at 1225565254 ---------------

The only ones that can actually 'do stuff' on here (code wise) is administrators.

I'm not talking about code, always code... it's about the whole thing, and you know it... i'm not telling that "YOU" are exhausted, or complaining about members requests... but "SOME" are, and maybe it's not their place...

it's not your place when you're among administrators and coders and you see all of them as "possible problems"... most of the guys who really participate on this site as good coders, good admins, people with a brain... but most of the time, when there are debates, these people are considered as kids and whinners... this is not good for the business, even if there is not real business here...

[Gio~Logist]

The only ones that can actually 'do stuff' on here (code wise) is administrators.

Shouldn't that force even more priority on the coding capabilities of the administrators here?

[smacklan]

the problem is that we paid our license to have access to this site, we all did... this is not a privilege though, we have to behave...

You hit the nail on the head with this. If this site and it's resources were a major reason for me spending my money on vbulletin (and Jelsoft advertises this as a benefit of spending your money on their product), then it is a privilege I have paid for and I shouldn't have to kiss anybody's a$$ to be allowed to speak my mind and expect some action on things that need to be done. I appreciate the fact that the staff here volunteer their time and efforts...I really do. But on the flip side of the coin, if it weren't for paying customer's such as myself, there would be no need for them to be here volunteering. Not only do I pay for the privilege of being here, I contribute my goods as well. This benefits users like myself but also Jelsoft in a big way...all the more reason to expect this place to respond to the needs of the customers. Like I said earlier, Jelsoft needs to get off their sorry butts and run this place like the business it is or incorporate it into the corporate website. It's not the staff's fault they don't and I don't mean to imply that it is...but that doesn't change the fact that it still needs to happen.

[nexialys]

Adding a point here: the admins are telling that we complaint too much, we can do it elsewhere if we're not happy... the only problem with that statement is that Jelsoft refuse to endorse anyother website where we could advertise vBulletin... vb.org is the only official place, and we're more like outlaws when we try to do it elsewhere...

vB.org is providing me the only platform available for advertising my stuff, this is even the only place Jelsoft permit to advertise when talking about hacks and products --- go at vb.com and ask for modification tasks, they will tell to come here, nowhere else...

so my example here is good, if we cannot voice our opinions on this site's structure, that means the site do not intend to represent ourselves, then the site is just a face off... so if this is wrong, why all our requests are considered whinning and none of the admin is able to really do the job in the backside of it?!... no time?!... blah blah... if this site is so modified in the background means that someone had the time to do it in the past... if you are obsolete, instead of saving your ass try to save the site by giving up...

[Guest190829]

Adding a point here: the admins are telling that we complaint too much, we can do it elsewhere if we're not happy... the only problem with that statement is that Jelsoft refuse to endorse anyother website where we could advertise vBulletin... vb.org is the only official place, and we're more like outlaws when we try to do it elsewhere...

vB.org is providing me the only platform available for advertising my stuff, this is even the only place Jelsoft permit to advertise when talking about hacks and products --- go at vb.com and ask for modification tasks, they will tell to come here, nowhere else...

so my example here is good, if we cannot voice our opinions on this site's structure, that means the site do not intend to represent ourselves, then the site is just a face off... so if this is wrong, why all our requests are considered whinning and none of the admin is able to really do the job in the backside of it?!... no time?!... blah blah... if this site is so modified in the background means that someone had the time to do it in the past... if you are obsolete, instead of saving your ass try to save the site by giving up...

You're really missing the point:

1.) Who said you can't voice your opinion on the site's structure? That's exactly what the Site Feedback forum is for.

2.) It's not an issue of not having time, it's an issue of efficiency and time management...waiting for vB 4 before we make any major foundational edits to our code base is the smart, pragmatic thing to do and I severely doubt any reasonable programmer on this site would disagree with that.

[smacklan]

1.) Who said you can't voice your opinion on the site's structure? That's exactly what the Site Feedback forum is for.

Come on Danny...take a look at how many suggestion threads get handled. I would venture to guess that everyone is on the defensive expecting something to go bad in any suggestion thread...I suppose there is equal blame to go around for that but something needs to give ;)


2.) It's not an issue of not having time, it's an issue of efficiency and time management...waiting for vB 4 before we make any major foundational edits to our code base is the smart, pragmatic thing to do and I severely doubt any reasonable programmer on this site would disagree with that.
I agree with that...but a lot of the things that could happen never do ;) This place is still running 3.6 for goodness sake....it should be cutting edge, don't you think?

[Gio~Logist]

I agree. Time management is not the equivalent of procrastination, although it seems to be the case on this website (sorry if that's too critical for some to handle).

Smacklan also made a good point with the website being 3.6. Being that 3.6 has been out for quite some time, what's the reason for this version on vb.org not being extra slick? You can either keep waiting for a new release, or we can make things happen. Pushing things off to the side is a setup for a bigger problem in the long run, i can't stress this enough.

Lets face it, this site is filled with professional vbulletin developers. Why can't the people who run it act like so? It's a big ball of frustration. And as frustrating as it is for you guys to handle our criticism, it's twice as frustrating for us to have to give it every day.

Would it not be much more easier and pleasurable for us to comfortably and effectively manage our contributions in such an atmosphere that makes this possible rather than have to point out the obvious every day?

Also, if you want to start talking in terms of "who pays" and "not getting paid" and you feel the need to place emphasis on the fact that contributions made here are free, then i believe "The official vbulletin modifications site" is misleading. Especially since the most official modifications (although there are some great mods here for free) are paid. How about "free vb mods" instead? And lets not even talk in terms of the mod themselves, but rather our status as members here. Yes, we did pay.. We paid for a product which requires us having purchased it in order to fully participate on these forums.

I would love to see a member of the jelsoft staff itself come here and see they are genuinely pleased with the direction this website is going in.

[Paul M]

Wrong and you know it. This site is owned by Jelsoft and only licensed vbulletin owners can download the resources here. Just what exactly are you trying to say with that comment?
Nope, I am correct. You pay for a vbulletin licence. That does not entitle you to access to this site (or even the vb.com forums). It allows you to use vbulletin and also the support system.

[Gio~Logist]

Nope, I am correct. You pay for a vbulletin licence. That does not entitle you to access to this site (or even the vb.com forums). It allows you to use vbulletin and also the support system.

Nope, you are incorrect. That does entitle us to access areas which define the purpose of this site.

Sorry Pauly, you entered a pointless battle there. Think i mentioned something about this in my last post too.

[Paul M]

Nope, you are incorrect. That does entitle us to access areas which define the purpose of this site.
You can believe that you wish, but there is no right of access to vb.org. Indeed, a number of licence holders are banned.

[Gio~Logist]

You can believe that you wish, but there is no right of access to vb.org. Indeed, a number of licence holders are banned.

Believe what i wish? I thought we were talking facts here Paul. Is the fact not that you need to purchase a vb license to gain full access to this website's purpose? Yes or no?

[Paul M]

Yes, you need to be licenced to access some features, whats your point exactly ?

[Lizard King]

I honestly just wanted to start this thread because of the problem i mentioned in first post. But as things are way off topic i also will like to voice my opinion about the points mentioned.

vBulletin.org is for vBulletin License Owners , therefor who owns a vBulletin license has a right to be on this board. Noone can deny this.

The problem on this site is unfortunately is caused by Jelsoft itself. I hope nobody will get me wrong but all these kind of discussion started on an exact date. When the old administrator staff was pulled down and a new jelsoft representative has been asigned to vBulletin.org.

I put all the blame on Marco and Jelsoft as they both never succeed to run vbulletin.org the way it needs to be handled. Lots of old people are whining , most of the old coders are unhappy and stopped releasing hacks. The quality of hacks is way worse when they were compared to old hacks released out there.

And yet nothing is solved.

Sorry but vB 4.0 is at least 1 year away. If Marco is getting paid he should take care off everything. Upgrading the site to latest version ( come on while vB 3.8 is beta tested on vb.com having vb.org on 3.6.x is a joke and a terrible way to promote business ) preparing a decent modification system etc.. But yet he doesn't handles any of this.

I can understand Paul or Danny or any other volenteered staff complaining about time but Marco has no right to do as he is getting paid with the money we spend on vBulletin licenses , renewal fees etc..

[nexialys]

my fault, my fault... i did not takeover the site when it was time... someone took my place while i had the back turned...

[smacklan]

I'm in agreement with you Mert. I'm going on 3 weeks awaiting a reply to an official complaint about this at vb.com...tells me that Jelsoft isn't that interested in what goes on here. Sad actually.

[nexialys]

/me do not complaint anymore, he have his own stuff to whine about... wife, kids, house, MIL...

[Lizard King]

vBulletin.org - Official vBulletin Modification Site owned by Jelsoft is using a version which Jelsoft officially announced (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1646310&postcount=2) that it will not be supported anymore and its life has ended.

[TECK]

Nope, I am correct. You pay for a vbulletin licence. That does not entitle you to access to this site (or even the vb.com forums). It allows you to use vbulletin and also the support system.

You are wrong. There is nothing mentioned about your affirmation anywhere in vBulletin Members Area or their license agreement. It is stated clearly that you can have access to a variety of support forums. On top of that, the license owner can decide what vBulletin Support Forums he/she can access.

From vBullettin Site:

Home ? Support ? Priority Forums Support (http://members.vbulletin.com/membersupport_priority.php)
By opting-in to the priority support service, you will be able to access customer-only information and resources on a number of vBulletin forums for as long as your vBulletin customer account contains at least one active vBulletin license. To utilize this service, you must first check the box next to the forums that you wish to participate in using the form below. You can then register on the external forums using the same email address assigned to your customer account.

If you would block my access to those forums, for any reasons who does not violate the Jelsoft and vBulletin license agreement nor the site code of conduct, rest assured that I will sue Jelsoft instantly. Especially when I have over $1,500.00 worth of vBulletin licenses.

In other words, only Jelsoft can decide who cannot have access to a vBulletin site, based on the above mentioned facts. Since you are not representing Jelsoft in any way and you are granted administrative tasks to vBulletin.org on a pure volunteer form, you are not allowed to ban anyone from vBulletin.org forums.

I hope this answers your questions and will determine you to think twice before you affirm something in public that can be associated with discrimination and harassment, in a court of law.

[Dream]

Wasn't this thread about mod versions?

The way it is today might be the best.

Do you create one thread for each mod version you have? If you choose what versions each zip file works for the system would be too complex I think, maybe not feasible. Supporting different versions would become complicated (not really my problem cause I don't give support officially, but it would).

It could, however, solve the problem of posting exactly the same mod multiple times. My Read PMs mod for example, the most common question is "does it works on latest version", and I'm not going to make a whole new thread just for it. I would press a few buttons though to let people know it works on newer versions.

Also actually some mods change drastically between vb versions, and may warrant a completely new thread. The rules for creating a new thread for the same mod should be well thought out if a better version system was put in place. For one, I could totally change the mod, and want a new support thread for it as I said above. It's a nice idea that should be thought out.

You should ask what Cyb thinks about it, he has many mods with different versions scattered around.

--------------- Added 02 Nov 2008 at 04:11 ---------------

While it is true that releasing the same mod in two areas (like 3.6 and 3.7) will affect the coders ranking, it wont actually have as big an effect as some think - as each area has a preset weighting, so mods in the 3.6 area do not count as much as mods in the 3.7 area. The older the version, the less weight it has.

If the site was starting from scratch then we wouldnt have seperate areas, there would be some sort of version system in the release thread to show which vb versions it was valid for. However, doing this now would cause a huge headache and potentially tons of work trying to get all existing releases to use a new system. Besides which there are often minor differences between releases anyway.

Maybe when vb 4.0 comes out a new system may be looked at, since its likely that 99% of existing mods will need to be updated and re-released at that point, I think any change before then is highly unlikely.

Actually, it's just a matter of slapping a 3.6 tag on mods on the 3.6 forum and so on.

--------------- Added 02 Nov 2008 at 04:15 ---------------

Danny dude, lol I actually had trusted you more than to say something like "as a user your suggestions are invaluable". Lets take a look at the user to staff ratio and just how much of any website's success is due to "their users". Or am I missing something here?

It's agreed that the mods system needs improvement, even Paul was able to admit to that. The fact that you guys are waiting till vb4, although I do share the restlessness that others do for better organization, is understandable due to the fact that vb4 will bring an immense amount of changes. But the key here is just always knowing where there's need for improvement, especially when the suggestions are made from members who posted modifications here for free.
Actually, removing the dependency of the mods repository on vB would be the best for everyone, especially the poor souls that have to recode everything every time a different vB version comes out. I would start separating the mods section from vB right now (not me literally /runs away) and using the forums solely for comments/support. So you'd basically just have to tie the two systems, hopefully taking a day or two.

[King Kovifor]

As this thread has gone way off topic and has turned into yet another staff bashing thread, this thread is at an end.

[Paul M]

Edit: Nevermind, didnt notice this had been closed.