A Honest to Good Aggravated Criticism of Paid Modifications for vBulletin (Essay)

[cheat-master30]

So before I continue, I'll just add that I'm posting it here because quite a few portions are relevant to vBulletin.org, namely many major mods going paid, no free alternatives to many modifications, rather annoying and sneakly advertising of commercial products in topics for the Lite versions with weighted feature lists and it references vBulletin.org and the vBulletin modifiction community. Never the less, as originally posted here http://dsultimate.net/Board/upload/blog.php?b=407, this is my long indepth opinion about some of the ripoffs some paid modifications are.

And I know there will be some arguing over the contents of this thread and people saying how many times it's came up before, but oh well...


An Honest to Good Criticism of Paid Modifications for vBulletin

Now, I have wanted to say this for a while, and it does not only apply to vBulletin but any paid software (Invision Power Board seems to have quite a lot of this aggravation and ridiculously priced modifications as well for example), but I am getting increasingly annoyed at the emergence of paid modifications. Because now, it seems ANYTHING of substance is a paid modification, and the only chance of ever getting something fairly and with the rights the consumer deserves seems to be going the direction of either 'Wait for Jelsoft or Invision to make a version of it and sell it for a reasonable price with reasonsable features' or 'code it yourself'. But why should we, and here's my nicely written and detailed article about why this attitude and this exploitation of the consumer is getting ridiculous.

Part 1; Why the hell is everything for money now?

This one in particular really does annoy me. Every single possible major feature for any paid software (and much free software, but seemingly more so paid like vBulletin or Invison Power BOard) seems to come as a paid modification, despite the fact a good couple of years or months ago the community were perfectly willing to actually help each other rather than make a quick buck out of every possible piece of code. This then means that basic but needed features that the official companies behind vBulletin or Invision or whatever aren't in the process of making, haven't released yet or have no interest in making (think galleries, RPGs, points and shop systems, video systems, etc) basically force people to people ridiculously high charges and costs to use. But even the charging isn't the main point here, it's that there are NO alternatives to half of these useful albeit overpriced modifications. Take Windows for example. Don't like Windows and don't want to pay? Linux. Don't want to pay for Photoshop? The Gimp. Don't want to pay for a HTML or web editor? Take your pick from hundreds. Don't want to pay for Microsoft Office? Open Office. But for vBulletin and Invision there ARE NO alternatives. You either pay for a ridiculous overpriced modification, pay someone else to do it or don't get the feature. There should be alternatives. There needs to be some volunteers for something to get popular, and in theory, there should be no shortage. But it seems again, money hunger and craze has fell over the best coders in many communities.

Part 2; Prices from Hell?

The next thing that is annoying me about many of these modifications is that their prices are completely ridiculous for what they are actually offering. Take for example vB SEO (although both vB Commerce full version and many Inferno Technologies products have similarly high pricing schemes). They charge near enough the same as the core product their modification is based around. This is just stupid! You can't honestly say that your modification is better than the core product, or imply people should pay you more than they did for the base product! As far as I know, NONE of these modifications people are charging for are anywhere near as good as the vBulletin source code, and to be honest, if anyone was to charge $200 odd it should be Jelsoft, not the modification developers. Same with the other stuff. Let's take an example. It's hard to think of one, because not much is sold like software (things like cars and stuff don't exactly have add ons or modifications to the mainstream, let alone sell them for hundreds of dollars/pounds). But take gaming as an example (I will get criticism for comparing forum software to games and games consoles, just watch this space). Let's say you paid either $250 for a Wii, $200-400 for an Xbox 360 or $600 odd for a PS3. What would you expect to pay for typical software, or a game? You'd probably pay like $40 for a game. This of course is fairly reasonable. Now let's say some company asked you to pay TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS for a game. Would anyone actually buy it? It would be asking too much, and around the same as the actual console/core, and at the very least the company would get a flak from reviews (and lose about 2 grades) from the overpricing. But that seems to be common place for vBulletin add ons, charging as much or even MORE than what the core product offers. Seriously guys, price your products reasonably, there is no way you've built something that makes vBulletin look feature lacking, let alone anything that justifies a $200 price tag.

Seriously, $50 is a pretty fair price tag for something someone would want to pay for (the last part being especially important, three lines of code for something extremely minor, however cheap is a complete rip off when you're paying for it). $100 would probably be asking for a lot of work put into the hack, and that's probably the very upper boundary many of these modifications could get on a somewhat fair market. Finally though, anything above is just silly. You should never be charging nearly the full price of the base software for a modification, regardless of how big (if it's off the shelf and being sold to the public), let alone charging MORE than the base software. Stick to sane pricing people.

3. Lite does not equal feature non existant

Another point I would like to add and stress with all seriousness. When a piece of software is Lite, that is expected to be not exactly feature filled to the brim, but there is a general cut off point between ridiculous or nearly completely useless for all practical purposes and 'Lite'. First of all, don't even bother releasing a 'Lite version' if the lite version has exactly one feature and blatantly says 'buy the full version for something you could actually use to your site's advantage'. This has been done by quite a few Lite versions (I think vB Tube was a really good example of this, as it had exactly TWO features in the Lite mod and about 20 in the full one). A lite mod, at least if you're planning on releasing to vBulletin.org should ideally have some merit for why people would want to use it WITHOUT buying the full version, and should be more than merely an advertising token version blatantly saying 'Buy full version to get something that doesn't suck'. In this aspect, congratulations, because the one BEST EVER hack in terms of having a usable Lite version is probably Photoplog, where even the Lite version is equal to most full gallery solutions. Well done for not taking the easy and cheap way out.

Secondly, it's also incredibly annoying to see modifications that have huge lists of features in the free mod post and then 'Paid version only' after half of them in the list. To me, this is frankly just spamming and trying to advertise/make money off the hard work of sites like vBulletin.org. Say what features the Lite version has, and then just give a minor footnote that there is a paid version. There is no freaking need for a massive list of features unavailable in the version distributed on vBulletin.org, especially in such a way that it's clear you just want to advertise a paid product and make quick cash.

4. Encryption? What the hell?

Now, before anyone says that encrypting code is a good idea to protect the product, let me say one thing. The only damn reason vBulletin and Invision Power Board actually HAVE a modding community is because their code is not encyrpted and can be modified. This is one of the most major things the completely stupid idea of encryption just totally kills. You can't change the default product, you can't integrate with anything and you can't add features yourself, leaving you at the beck and call of the developer unless you try to literally crack the code with some kind of tool. Secondly, it leaves you at the mercy of the developer for any kind of fixes, whether security related or otherwise, and if just one flaw comes out and it is fixed quickly, your board could either malfunction or be hacked via a vulnerability that hasn't been fixed and you have no possible way to fix. Which as you can tell by Microsoft/Windows/Internet Explorer and their track record, can be suicidal for web or computer safety.

This major problem with modifying the code due to encryption, which it seems nearly every paid hack has gone the way of (despite evidence from vBulletin, Invision and various other paid products that things are way better without it in nearly every way) is that when the developer dies, the hack dies with it. If it was a free modification, and used non encrypted code, it could be continued or ported to another version of the forum software or even completely different software, but with encrypted code, only the developer can update it, and if they ever go missing for long periods of time or go completely defunct, there goes the hack ever being updated or working with future software. Even more so if for some ridiculous reason, the entire modification depends on a call back to the developer's site, which could easily render the entire thing unusable if they go down or out of business. Which reminds me... gee, I really don't want to know what happened to those using RPG Inferno and such like when they closed, because I guess that spells the end for anyone using their modifications...

So what do I propose here? Well to be honest, I propose people start using somewhat common sense thinking and stop trying to charge people for pretty much everything related to vBulletin or Invision Power Board (just because we paid for a license doesn't mean we just have money to throw around everywhere), that they stop charging extortionate, ridiculous prices for modifications that are sometimes higher than those of the official product the modifications are based on (isn't reselling code for a commercial product kind of illegal anyway?) Better yet, why don't we just boycott this complete stupidty and let the market itself destroy them and their ridiculous strategies. Now, I know almost immediately I will get a ton of hatred and flaming for suggesting that oh... maybe more people should stop charging for modifications or charge reasonable prices and that encryption is bad and should not be used. Well let me add to this article a few more things, another section for the developers and coders who likely think things ranging from (if it's so easy, build it yourself), (you're a coder...) and (I'll start extolling the virtues of charging for modifications and blah blah). Never the less, here it is.

If you don't like the modification stop using it

Again, read part 1 of this article, or more in fact, this blantantly obvious line:

'But for vBulletin and Invision there ARE NO alternatives.'

Which is the point. It isn't fair to MAKE someone have to use a paid add on for a feature that other software can deliver with add ons or modifications for free or that would have been free a few years ago. It also seems like very few people have the interest in making modifications longer than a few lines any more (and yes, I would probably release any modification of substantial scale I made for my own site if I knew quite how to program that well). Just look for the modifications here for vBulletin:

Custom Coding costs thousands of dollars/pounds...

Yet the word custom pretty much says why. Getting a developer or programmer to work for you and build a custom script is likely going to cost far more by nature since they can't really resell the script for extra profit and you're basically paying them like an employee or freelance worker. You can't expect to sell an off shelf modification for a price that exceeds even the base products price, unless maybe your work was a few hundred times more in depth, feature rich, optimised etc than the foundation is was built on. And to my knowledge, I don't know any paid add on (or free one) for vBulletin, Invision, etc, that is not custom for one site that has enough to justify such a ridiculously steep price tag.

Piracy forces encryption!

Again, let me show you a few things. One, there an awful lot of products, paid even that aren't so scared of pirates and copyright infringement that they allow people to view and edit the source code, which has benefited us all. Like vBulletin and Invision Power Board. Secondly, if there's a problem with piracy, that means two things should be on your mind:


Your product is good enough to warrant it being ripped off. So good job, more people like it!
You should think of how to use something intelligent to stop pirates. Like you know, legal action, DCMA notices, notices to the datacentre and hosting company of the site distributing your product illegally and maybe a lawsuit if you really think you're losing that much money.Besides, what could you get back via not encrypting your code? Well a modification community for one thing and your product being potentially supported by the community when you personally go out of business or shut down or quit. And people being able to run your product after you close your services...

I hope I made my thoughts clear.

[veenuisthebest]

I hope I made my thoughts clear.

I read all the titles and that one last line.

And yes, I do think you made your thoughts clear enough.

[Dean C]

Remember not everyone has free time. I contributed most to this community when I was a lot younger, still at school and college (a good amount of years ago now). I didn't have to pay bills, or pay for food to put in my mouth and I had an abundance of free time. But times change, and now I have to support myself, pay for my education and pay my rent and utility bills etc.

I could sit around coding all day to give you guys something for free, or I could sit around all day coding something and make some money to support myself and avoid getting into debt.

Go figure which one I choose, and also note that a lot of the people on here have far more to support than I do. There's a lot of coders on here who have families to support. Do you expect them to give up their work for free too? :)

[nexialys]

i did not even bother read your text all along... too long.. lol

I founded a complete free-for-all project once... it is called PostNuke ... you know it, everybody know it. Everybody was free to contribute, share and download all and everything, and our license was forcing everybody to release their addons for free, no possibility to have paid scripts inside the community.

After 6 month of development, it was come obvious that the plans to make it free were absolutely stupid. after no long, a bunch of geeks with no real knowledge of efficient coding were releasing addons and products for postnuke, and they flooded the market. the reason? there was no protocol -- we had one internally, but as the doors were opened,, imagine!

i've quit that project after 8 months of development *(version was 0.71 at that moment) ... and 6 years after, they are still at version 0.8 or something... they renamed themselves Zikula -- i suppose it's because of the past reference to a trashcan called postnuke!... but see, they decided to go "pro" to make a statement -- enough morons.

the internet is not a platform for free distribution. it's a reflect of the real life, where you have free and non-free stuff. you can have a car in various flavors... Lada, Peugeot, Ford, Ferrari... you decide what kind of finance you will invest to have four wheels under your seat. free cars ?!

[cheat-master30]

The point isn't just that paid isn't a great thing, it's that things like the prices are ridiculous because they're often as high or higer than the core product, why encryption damages the product value and a few other things (like how it seems vBulletin and Invision get less free add ons than the free boards do likely because of an expectation that if you paid for the software you can afford to pay for add ons...)

[Brad]

Remember not everyone has free time. I contributed most to this community when I was a lot younger, still at school and college (a good amount of years ago now). I didn't have to pay bills, or pay for food to put in my mouth and I had an abundance of free time. But times change, and now I have to support myself, pay for my education and pay my rent and utility bills etc.

I could sit around coding all day to give you guys something for free, or I could sit around all day coding something and make some money to support myself and avoid getting into debt.

Go figure which one I choose, and also note that a lot of the people on here have far more to support than I do. There's a lot of coders on here who have families to support. Do you expect them to give up their work for free too? :)
* Brad agrees with Dean

It was easier to find the time to contribute when I was younger...these days I'm getting up at 5am everyday and not coming home til 6pm at night. In other words even if I wanted to sit down and make some of the ideas in my head reality I would not be able to find the time.

Personally I've also moved in to other/harder things. For example I didn't feel my php skills were that great because I relied on the vBulletin source code for so long. So I decided to stop working with vBulletin and start learning php again from the ground up. I've also moved into C# and C++ and am currently working on a video game with a friend/classmate in my free time. Outside of programming I'm doing other things; Editing video, Networking, Tech support for more people then I care to count, becoming a better cook, driving and racing cars for fun and of course chasing any women that catch my eye.

Basically what needs to happen is a younger group of guys and girls will have to come in to the fold. There will always be a turnover here when it comes to the people posting modifications/styles, they will all need replacing at some point or another. We all can't sit around on our collective asses all day after all...damn I hate begin an adult. ;)

[iogames]

me too, work so hard :(

--------------- Added 1223419022 at 1223419022 ---------------

Oh yeah prices too high :eek: [are they trying to send their kids to the University with my money?!?!?]

[smacklan]

Until you actually operate your own business, invest your money and time into developing and supporting a product, you really have no way of knowing what it takes. Saying someone charges too much for what they sell is understandable, but lets get real...you either pony up or you don't...getting pissed at what someone charges is rather pointless. Good business people know what they have to charge to remain competitive and still turn a profit.(that is what it's all about, afterall) In regards to people here not churning out quality stuff for free, well I have to say alot of that has to do with what Brad and Dean said but on the flip side, this place is full of leechers who show up here expecting to get the world handed to them on a silver platter for free...life just doesn't work that way. In regards to pirates, they are nothing more than punk thieves with huge ego's. Total wastes of oxygen who will never amount to anything worthwhile in life.

[Guest210212002]

Quick 2c: I've had 3 custom mods made here for around $200 each, and they've all been exactly what I wanted and well worth it.

If you're looking for unique content, it's going to cost money.

[SEOvB]

Do you make money from your forums? Do you intend to make money from them? Do the paid features that you need help you make money? Would your members be happier by you spending some cash or taking some donations to get a new must have feature?

Did you answer yes to any of the above?

If you make money from someone else's hard work, they in return should have the same right to charge something for their time and your new found success.

The only point I may agree with you on is Encryption, but that is their right to if they want to and I didnt read your explanation for why you hate it, but personally If i can't see whats being ran on my server/hosting account chances are good it doesn't need to be ran. I know of atleast 2 vBulletin products I'd love to have but refuse to purchase because of encryption, but I'm not throwing a fit like a 12 year old over it.

[nexialys]

encryption: Windows is encrypted... are you frustrated because Microsoft encrypted parts of the OS you use on your computer ?!... it's their way to hide some cool features they copied from Apple, but hey.. lol

i never encrypted my stuff though, and never will, even if in the next weeks i'm going full commercial/pro ... encryption is for some professional secrets you want to hide, but vBulletin is built from PHP and MySQL, both engines uncrypted... if i want to encrypt something, it will be because i create a complete new engine, nothing else.

but that was debated not long ago, last month if i remember right...

[Lizard King]

All your post is pointless and you dont even have one single correct arguement.

Do you know how hard is it to support and spend time with them plus code free addons for people you dont even know ? Do you think it is fair for you to spend your valuable time coding free addons instead of spending time with family. It is impossible.

Also everyone out there is creating a forum to make money. At least 95% target making money. Why should i code something free for someone who targets to make money ?

One last point : vBSEO is fairly priced as it is an addon which directly brings your site traffic i which also increases your earnings. The support is great so you pay and get what you paid for.

P.S : Hopefully noone will turn this thread into vBSEO discussion. Author made a point and i just responded.

[vbplusme]

encryption: Windows is encrypted... are you frustrated because Microsoft encrypted parts of the OS you use on your computer ?!... it's their way to hide some cool features they copied from Apple, but hey.. lol

i never encrypted my stuff though, and never will, even if in the next weeks i'm going full commercial/pro ... encryption is for some professional secrets you want to hide, but vBulletin is built from PHP and MySQL, both engines uncrypted... if i want to encrypt something, it will be because i create a complete new engine, nothing else.

but that was debated not long ago, last month if i remember right...

Sorry, that's the WRONG model. Microsoft would in fact encrypt the whole planet is they could and ABSOLUTELY YES! EVERYTHING is frustrating about Micro$ so that's really a bad analogy. They are the ultimate scumbags that have driven the cost of living on this planet to where it is today. Maybe you are too young to remember but THEY introduced the $500 software packages and caused the whole concept of software piracy by their ruthless GREED. Its no secret that Micro$ intended to monopolize and dominate ALL software on the planet so that only THEY made $$$.

Encryption and Open Source which most of the stuff here is about are mutually exclusive and can not coexist. Encryption is in the realm of "Micro$" wannabees, nothing but greed driven, and nothing to do with piracy either. IMHO.

My 2.5 cents worth ...

:D

--------------- Added 1223433855 at 1223433855 ---------------

All your post is pointless and you dont even have one single correct arguement.

One last point : vBSEO is fairly priced as it is an addon which directly brings your site traffic i which also increases your earnings. The support is great so you pay and get what you paid for.



That's just nonsense! I think it might be YOU that need to do the homework. VBSEO is a scam and yet to be definitively PROVEN to work as advertised or have an "cause/effect" relationship to traffic flow to ones site in an of itself. Frankly, in my opinion, it is nothing short of a marketing ploy to exploit the market. Left to its own devices, VBSEO does nothing to generate the huge amount of traffic they claim in their marketing hype. The results of more than a few tests have showed no significant results without a LOT of SEO help that could do without having VBSEO installed!

VBSEO is one of the best con jobs in the vBulletin Community, similar in fact the the 419 scams, IMHO.

[Lizard King]

And may i ask when did you tested vBSEO , maybe you'll like to include your licensed url so i can check your review. If not you are just another guy who trolls around threads with useless information . You can reply via PM as i stated before i donot want this thread turn to vBSEO discussion. But if you post something like that you have to supply me the requested info otherwise you are just posting Bullshit.

[TECK]

First, this post does not have any adversity towards a specific person. It is the pure truth what I think about all remarks. I will not speak in a shallow manner so it might sound rough but believe me, I'm honest and say exactly what I think.

1. Why the hell is everything for money now?
If you would like to pay my mortgage and all other expenses that total up to $2,000/month, please let me know so I will stop working. All the free projects etc. you see out there survive on donations... I don't understand why people purchase vBulletin and do no use a free alternative. If you spent money on a good software and paid for it to get it, it is absolutely normal to expect to pay for other add-ons, if you want quality.

2. Prices from Hell?
The minimum fee I charge for my customers is 1,000.00, depending on what contract I work on. My current client signed for a 4,000.00 job. However he is getting what he paid for, quality and reliability. It took me 6 months to develop the product he wants. During this time, I did not get paid a dime. Now I collect the benefits from the long nights lost. I think it is fair, especially if the client saves money. Basically, my products will save him overall 7-12,000.00/year. So investing 4,000.00 is nothing for his benefits.

3. Lite does not equal feature non existent
When this community was born, I was doing a lot of freebies. Until I saw how many people ripped my code and did similar releases, while appropriating my hard work. It was allowed, because they changed 2-3 lines of code so it did not looked the same. Not to mention that other products were pure crap, in code quality... That made me decide that I will NEVER release anything for free, anywhere. It was an excellent decision, now I can make a decent living out if my products and services. Most of them are word to mouth advertised.

4. Encryption? What the hell?
I will never encrypt any of my work. I don't have to worry about it, the price tag is to high to worry about having them distributed on the Internet. ;)

That's all I have to say, I hope you see clearly what I'm talking about and why I take those decisions long time ago. They made my life a lot easier and pleasant... and saved A LOT of money to my customers.

Regards,

Floren

[SEOvB]

Sorry, that's the WRONG model. Microsoft would in fact encrypt the whole planet is they could and ABSOLUTELY YES! EVERYTHING is frustrating about Micro$ so that's really a bad analogy. They are the ultimate scumbags that have driven the cost of living on this planet to where it is today. Maybe you are too young to remember but THEY introduced the $500 software packages and caused the whole concept of software piracy by their ruthless GREED. Its no secret that Micro$ intended to monopolize and dominate ALL software on the planet so that only THEY made $$$.


If it wasn't for Microsoft computers could arguably still not be accessible to the masses as they are today. Microsoft has done way more good than harm to consumers in regards to pricing of not only software but hardware, paved the way for tons of technology (who came up with it first or whatever is irrelevant, MS made it mostly accessible)

$500 software packages were around long before microsoft was and the same concept of piracy was present for ages.

Yes they did intend to dominate the planet. Its called business. You're in a business for profit, not to take a loss. Thats the great thing about it. All the prices they've set are consumer driven, if people didn't pay it, they'd either lower it or not make it.

But all this is neither here nor there as this is mostly about vBulletin addons, and i see a vBSEO battle looming :D

[TECK]

Do you know how hard is it to support and spend time with them plus code free addons for people you dont even know ? Do you think it is fair for you to spend your valuable time coding free addons instead of spending time with family. It is impossible.

Also everyone out there is creating a forum to make money. At least 95% target making money. Why should I code something free for someone who targets to make money ?

I totally agree with this, well said.

If it wasn't for Microsoft computers could arguably still not be accessible to the masses as they are today. Microsoft has done way more good than harm to consumers in regards to pricing of not only software but hardware, paved the way for tons of technology (who came up with it first or whatever is irrelevant, MS made it mostly accessible)

$500 software packages were around long before microsoft was and the same concept of piracy was present for ages.
Another well said reply. Guys, if you want this and that in your forums (for free), check Community Server. They could sell you a forum license for only 20,000.00 and suply you for free with all the add-ons you want.

[Reeve of shinra]

I think Dean pretty much hit the nail on the head ... another factor is that the complexity of the mods has increased since the vb 2.0 days. Today, some scripts are nearly as complex as the core forum product itself. Its not the simply "add this to line 113 to get this effect" stuff.

[Ziki]

I agree with some of your ideas like people charging too much.I before released many free modifications and even a LITE version.But we have to live too.Everything costs money,even me going to the bathrooms costs me money.Water,toilet paper,water again and soap.If I wouldn't have to pay for anything,I would release everything for free,but since it isn't,I need to make a living out of something :).


Note: Oh and don't forget,some products are so highly priced because of the production price which also involves time making that modification.Jelsoft doesn't have to charge so much because they have ten-thousands of customers,but small websites like us,have only a couple.

[Gio~Logist]

I think Dean pretty much nailed it in his post. Lizard King and Teck also brought up some very valid points.

We can sit here and discuss all day how cheap add on's should be, or we can realize that you really do "Get What You Pay For".

vBseo is said to be overpriced by quite a few people. Perhaps that's the case. However, have you seen how many people use it? Apparently the modification is of importance and is priced as so. Is seo valuable to you? If so, purchase vBseo. If not, you can download one for free right on here.

Also, you sure can go ahead and wait for vbulletin to release any of the additions in which you would like to see included. But do you really think they all will? Vbulletin is above and foremost, a forum software. The potential is indeed immense and a lot can be done, but Jelsoft's priorities (at least i believe) are directed towards the overall forum aspect of things.

They have a wide variety of clients in which all use their software for a different purpose. Imagine every additional feature was included in vbulletin? Imagine if even their own add-ons (blogs, project tools) were built into vbulletin? Then you'd have clients complaining how about many unnecessary features were packaged and crammed in the product, making it not so popular anymore.

Why can add-ons be such a high price? If you're paying for a modification in which was already made and available for sale, i definitely don't see the need in paying anywhere over $xxx (and even then only for cases such as vBseo where people believe it's benefits surpass the fees).

Now, when you get into custom modifications (add-ons that you need for your website individually), I hope you don't ever expect these customizations to be "free" or "built into vbulletin". Or else, what purpose would your website have over the other hundred thousands that can do the same accross the web? Custom modifications can go well into the $x,xxx-$xx,xxx range as the extent of the features needed increase. And that's very common.

It all depends on what the end result is worth to you (and your website). Obviously people wouldn't spent thousands on modifications if they didn't feel it'd benefit them ;)

[cheat-master30]

I think Dean pretty much nailed it in his post. Lizard King and Teck also brought up some very valid points.

We can sit here and discuss all day how cheap add on's should be, or we can realize that you really do "Get What You Pay For".

vBseo is said to be overpriced by quite a few people. Perhaps that's the case. However, have you seen how many people use it? Apparently the modification is of importance and is priced as so. Is seo valuable to you? If so, purchase vBseo. If not, you can download one for free right on here.

I'm not going to argue about vBseo, and I'm really regretting using it as an example after the massive amounts of arguments every time the topic is brought up about whether it works, doesn't work, etc. All I can say is, at least their product isn't encrypted any more, and has probably enough features to just about justify the price.



Also, you sure can go ahead and wait for vbulletin to release any of the additions in which you would like to see included. But do you really think they all will? Vbulletin is above and foremost, a forum software. The potential is indeed immense and a lot can be done, but Jelsoft's priorities (at least i believe) are directed towards the overall forum aspect of things.

Did anyone seriously expect them to release Project Tools or a Blog add on?


Why can add-ons be such a high price? If you're paying for a modification in which was already made and available for sale, i definitely don't see the need in paying anywhere over $xxx (and even then only for cases such as vBseo where people believe it's benefits surpass the fees).

Now, when you get into custom modifications (add-ons that you need for your website individually), I hope you don't ever expect these customizations to be "free" or "built into vbulletin". Or else, what purpose would your website have over the other hundred thousands that can do the same accross the web? Custom modifications can go well into the $x,xxx-$xx,xxx range as the extent of the features needed increase. And that's very common.

I have no problem with custom coding costing a lot of money. But I'd expect as you said off the shelf prices to be a lot lower than that of custom coding, as mentioned in this paragraph:

Custom Coding costs thousands of dollars/pounds...

Yet the word custom pretty much says why. Getting a developer or programmer to work for you and build a custom script is likely going to cost far more by nature since they can't really resell the script for extra profit and you're basically paying them like an employee or freelance worker. You can't expect to sell an off shelf modification for a price that exceeds even the base products price, unless maybe your work was a few hundred times more in depth, feature rich, optimised etc than the foundation is was built on. And to my knowledge, I don't know any paid add on (or free one) for vBulletin, Invision, etc, that is not custom for one site that has enough to justify such a ridiculously steep price tag.


Do you make money from your forums? Do you intend to make money from them? Do the paid features that you need help you make money? Would your members be happier by you spending some cash or taking some donations to get a new must have feature?

No. Probably not. Not at this moment. I don't know.


First, this post does not have any adversity towards a specific person. It is the pure truth what I think about all remarks. I will not speak in a shallow manner so it might sound rough but believe me, I'm honest and say exactly what I think.

1. Why the hell is everything for money now?
If you would like to pay my mortgage and all other expenses that total up to $2,000/month, please let me know so I will stop working. All the free projects etc. you see out there survive on donations... I don't understand why people purchase vBulletin and do no use a free alternative. If you spent money on a good software and paid for it to get it, it is absolutely normal to expect to pay for other add-ons, if you want quality.



Because they like vBulletin as a base product because of it's quality and features? Because they like vBulletin and think the prices are fair but not those of the add ons? Because just a few years ago it seems there were a lot more free modifications that caused vBulletin.org to be given a lot more as a reason for purchasing vBulletin?



2. Prices from Hell?
The minimum fee I charge for my customers is 1,000.00, depending on what contract I work on. My current client signed for a 4,000.00 job. However he is getting what he paid for, quality and reliability. It took me 6 months to develop the product he wants. During this time, I did not get paid a dime. Now I collect the benefits from the long nights lost. I think it is fair, especially if the client saves money. Basically, my products will save him overall 7-12,000.00/year. So investing 4,000.00 is nothing for his benefits.

I have nothing against custom coding and work, which is what you've described. Just it's steep for something off the shelf and made for many different websites.



3. Lite does not equal feature non existent
When this community was born, I was doing a lot of freebies. Until I saw how many people ripped my code and did similar releases, while appropriating my hard work. It was allowed, because they changed 2-3 lines of code so it did not looked the same. Not to mention that other products were pure crap, in code quality... That made me decide that I will NEVER release anything for free, anywhere. It was an excellent decision, now I can make a decent living out if my products and services. Most of them are word to mouth advertised.

The point here is more that releasing Lite modifications with no features or reason to install is worse than not actually releasing the lite version at all, especially if you promote the heck out of the paid product in the first post.

--------------- Added 1223451482 at 1223451482 ---------------

All your post is pointless and you dont even have one single correct arguement.

Do you know how hard is it to support and spend time with them plus code free addons for people you dont even know ? Do you think it is fair for you to spend your valuable time coding free addons instead of spending time with family. It is impossible.

I'm not forcing anyone to release any modifications or whatever. Just saying about the paid ones, and the mistakes people are making with releasing the amounts of them.



Also everyone out there is creating a forum to make money. At least 95% target making money. Why should i code something free for someone who targets to make money ?

Because 95% are not in it to make money, at least initially? I know a lot of forums set up because the owners were interested in the subject and helping others, and not because money was one of their goals or interests. Note the amount of forums with no ads or minimal advertising for example.



P.S : Hopefully noone will turn this thread into vBSEO discussion. Author made a point and i just responded.

As I said before, I really don't want vBSEO discussion, because it's not the point of the topic, nor as I've seen before ends well.

[dodjer42]

Your comparison of pricing between vBulletin and custom mods is unreasonable.

vBulletin operates a high volume, low margin model to generate revenue. The cost of operation is amortized across thousands of customers. On the other hand, small mod developers can only expect low volume high margin models. Relative elementary business economics.

[nexialys]

Relative elementary business economics.

Exactly what he said.

btw, you can not evaluate that kind of things if you do not have the data in hands... or if nobody is able to explain the results to you -- teachers are needed here!

[Princeton]

Your comparison of pricing between vBulletin and custom mods is unreasonable.

vBulletin operates a high volume, low margin model to generate revenue. The cost of operation is amortized across thousands of customers. On the other hand, small mod developers can only expect low volume high margin models. Relative elementary business economics.
I could not have said it better. :up:

economics - learn it before you comment about an addon 'price'

[noppid]

If you can't price your product and move your product like vBulletin moves to keep your price in check with vBulletin itself, you've already failed. It's too narrow minded.

But what do I know, right? I just sit at home and post on forums.

Too many people think they can live off of one cool idea that "enhances" vBulletin. It's not that easy. ;)

[The Geek]

I am unsure of the last time I have seen so much ignorance crammed into a single post.

Let me try to sum up a viewpoint as I am someone who has contributed a bunch of mods (big and small) to vB for free and some big ones that I charged for.

1. Most mods are FARRRRR more complex now adays then pre 3.5.
2. Complexity takes time, talent and dedication to create and even more so to support
3. If you expect me to spend months developing an add on for you and support it for you and not charge you for it, then I expect you to come mow my lawn once a week, take out my garbage and occasionally babysit my kids for free.

Coding takes time to do and even more time to develop the skill. No commercial moders are driving new Ferrari's from their scriptlets and why I should be your +++++ for nothing is beyond me.

One commercial script I wrote had well over 2,000 hours between coding and supporting it and I charged ?15 for it. That means that it cost you less than .01 per hour for my services. If I sold 1,000 then I made ?10 per hour (and 1,000 copies of a commercial mod is a lot to sell).

I could make about as much working at Burger King.

What about vBSEO? Who freaking cares if its a rip off, over priced or the owners just bought their own island. If they make money from it, good for them. Cost is relative to the purchaser. I use vBseo, I like the results I get form the product. Would I be happier if it was cheaper (or free) of course! But if the $200 was too much for me for the return of functionality, I wouldnt have bought it.

How many hours do you work for free at your job? I mean, what is with all of the employees now a days that wont work unless you pay them? What about overtime? FFS! If they work more than 40 hours in a week, I have to pay them even more! What is their problem????

Do you have adsense on your site, but tell Google to keep the money? You arent botherd? You are supporting the development of newer and better web technologies! You are alos providing service to your users!

Its ignorant, cheap, disrespecting, non contributing-to-the-pot welfare demanding posters like this that pretty much kill most professional coders desire to contribute anything to a community.

They are usually the first to skip reading any documentation, installation notes, or previous posts in a thread before wingeing about a problem.

Rant over :)

[nexialys]

/me throw a copper to Sam...

[smacklan]

*/ smack waves hey to Sam /* Nice to see you grace these pages again :)

[noppid]

OMG the socialization of code? Is that what they want?

Some people are never happy.

No commercial moders are driving new Ferrari's from their scriptlets.

Damn, had I gotten that memo 5 years ago, I'd probably be...

[MPDev]

Until you actually operate your own business, invest your money and time into developing and supporting a product, you really have no way of knowing what it takes. Saying someone charges too much for what they sell is understandable, but lets get real...you either pony up or you don't...getting pissed at what someone charges is rather pointless. Good business people know what they have to charge to remain competitive and still turn a profit.(that is what it's all about, afterall) In regards to people here not churning out quality stuff for free, well I have to say alot of that has to do with what Brad and Dean said but on the flip side, this place is full of leechers who show up here expecting to get the world handed to them on a silver platter for free...life just doesn't work that way. In regards to pirates, they are nothing more than punk thieves with huge ego's. Total wastes of oxygen who will never amount to anything worthwhile in life.

People who have never taken that leap of faith will ever fully appreciate that concept.

The market will support whatever people are willing to pay - charge too much and you won't make much money. Charge too little and you might never make a profit.

No commercial moders are driving new Ferrari's from their scriptlets

Yo! Seriously, all I could ever afford was a bunch of Dodge Vipers. Ferraris are for the vB folks. :)

[AdrianH]

If you want everything free or on the cheap use SMF or phpbb for your forum and you won't have to pay anything.

Why is it you spend so much time moaning about the state of things and your perception of other peoples failures in the world of vB?

[cheat-master30]

Why should we not use a decent piece of software that's well worth the cost just because we don't want to pay for modifications? Just because we paid for vBulletin doesn't mean we want to pay for pretty much everything else to go with vBulletin, since people here already have to pay for hosting and what not...

[noppid]

Why should we not use a decent piece of software that's well worth the cost just because we don't want to pay for modifications? Just because we paid for vBulletin doesn't mean we want to pay for pretty much everything else to go with vBulletin, since people here already have to pay for hosting and what not...

That is called the price of doing business. If someone is not in it for the money, they should use open source free software.

Sorry, but while helping with a few lines of code in a thread is something some of us have time for, coding and maintaining a complete add on modification is something that only kids might have time for. And the point there is when it's free, you get what you pay for modification wise.

Take a look around. The mods here do no quality control and when someone steps up and does do a quality control post, it's ignored. Think about it, a cool idea does not guarantee good code. Once again, you get what you pay for.

[The Geek]

So others should work to produce you code for free because you paid vB a license payment?

Code some of these mods that should be free and support them. Then you could easily stand there and criticise others not doing it too.

[cheat-master30]

So others should work to produce you code for free because you paid vB a license payment?

Code some of these mods that should be free and support them. Then you could easily stand there and criticise others not doing it too.

So basically, Let's See you do better? That's not an argument, that's a logical fallacy, people do not have to be an expert in the field to offer their own opinion on the subject or criticise it. From a site I go to:

There is a common misconception among fans (and people having worked in a particular field) that you have to personally be an expert on something before offering your own opinion on a particular work. It helps, but it's certainly not required. Whenever an ordinary fan calls out another person to try their hand at something (making a film, creating a videogame, or writing a book) before criticizing it, that person has lost the argument.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ebert%27s%20Law

Secondly, I actually know what supporting or releasing a modification is like, amazingly enough (*Points to profile and user title*)

That is called the price of doing business. If someone is not in it for the money, they should use open source free software.

So if you're not using a computer for the money... and if you're not using Windows for the money you should Linux? Seriously, think arguments through before suggesting something that basically says no one should ever use any paid software or goods in their life if they don't want to make money with them...



Sorry, but while helping with a few lines of code in a thread is something some of us have time for, coding and maintaining a complete add on modification is something that only kids might have time for. And the point there is when it's free, you get what you pay for modification wise.

Considering Media Wiki, Coppermine Gallery or Wordpress, I'd say the 'get what you pay for' argument died with the recent internet. Then compare vBulletin to software many hundreds of times more expensive, and vBulletin does better.



Take a look around. The mods here do no quality control and when someone steps up and does do a quality control post, it's ignored. Think about it, a cool idea does not guarantee good code. Once again, you get what you pay for.

So? vBulletin.org is a free resource for modifications, if there aren't free modifications, then there's no point to this entire website. And I know a cool idea doesn't guarantee good code. But having the OPTION, there's nothing wrong with that, and if you want to take one product or whatever over enough based on code quality, that's your decision.

[noppid]

All I said is that you get what you pay for and free is rarely good. Nothing more.

Choose wisely.

But don't complain. If you want better, pay.

Use this place with that in mind and we'll all be fine. ;)

[nexialys]

Wordpress is free ... extensions and work for it is not... you break a lot of other stupid laws just by providing wordpress in your list... example: you want a good theme for wordpress, you pay for it; http://www.woothemes.com/ ...

when you buy vBulletin, there is NO STATEMENT written or even said that something else was provided for free... actually, ALL the extended services from Jelsoft are PAID too. support, addons, phone support, even the installation cost half of the software price... did you ever asked Jelsoft why they charged for an installation that takes 3 minutes ???

the problem with your entire thread is that you give not a single argument for releasing free stuff instead of charge for it...

[Dean C]

I still can't believe the OP is arguing his case. There is no argument here. Go get yourself a wife, kids, and pay for education, and then try and release your mods for free and support them in between supporting your family, and having an education :)

I hate to play the age card, but you are sounding really naive here...

[noppid]

I still can't believe the OP is arguing his case. There is no argument here. Go get yourself a wife, kids, and pay for education, and then try and release your mods for free and support them in between supporting your family, and having an education :)

I hate to play the age card, but you are sounding really naive here...

haha

I have enjoyed watching your transformation. Interesting stuff that reality and maturity?

I remember a day... Aw never mind. ;)

[Dean C]

haha

I have enjoyed watching your transformation. Interesting stuff that reality and maturity?

I remember a day... Aw never mind. ;)

We've all been a young whipper snapper once, but unlike some when I didn't have the Benjamins to pay for these so-called overpriced add-ons, I put my mind to better use and made people pay me to make them, instead of making ridiculous and uneducated rants on public forums.

[The Geek]

So basically, Let's See you do better? That's not an argument, that's a logical fallacy, people do not have to be an expert in the field to offer their own opinion

There is a famous saying about opinions... you know... that everyone has one...

But we aren't talking about opinions, we are talking about your perception that people should work for your benefit at no gain to them. Thats not an opinion, that is a screwed up sense of reality.



Secondly, I actually know what supporting or releasing a modification is like, amazingly enough (*Points to profile and user title*)


I'm not stupid enough to lay the claim without first looking at your plethora of modifications and their subsequent install counts. My point is, if you know how to make a mod, get off your ass and make the ones you are complaining aren't available for free here. Then support it and thus you would be justified in complaining that others aren't doing it.

The problem is that you are complaining about people not doing something you yourself do not do.

[Brad]

I wanted to add one thing;

From the OP's post

Take Windows for example. Don't like Windows and don't want to pay? Linux. Don't want to pay for Photoshop? The Gimp. Don't want to pay for a HTML or web editor? Take your pick from hundreds. Don't want to pay for Microsoft Office? Open Office. But for vBulletin and Invision there ARE NO alternatives.

Have you used linux on the desktop? Have you used linux in environments where support of the Win32 API and .NET APIs are requirements? For many of us it's not possible to "switch to linux" or "switch to MAC" or use anything else but Windows. I can name a few programs off the top of my head that I use everyday that will not run in linux; Visual Studio, DGindex, AvsP, AviSynth, Aegisub, Cinema Craft Encoder, and many other applications. Sure I know there is WINE and native linux alternatives and that will cover some of my needs but not all of them. At the end of the day if I don't have Windows XP on my desktop I'm not getting any work done.

What I'm getting at is it's easy to point at linux and claim it's a good alternative to Windows but like everything else in the world it's going to depend on the end user's needs. Let me ask you this; Would you install Linux on your mothers computer? Now before you say "Yes!" think about this. Is she going to be able to run a game, or piece of software that her friend brings over? How many times are you going to have to visit to install dependencies and emulators? Do you think it's going to support an ancient game made back in the Win95 days? ;)

Lets take your photoshop/GIMP example. Have you used GIMP to do any professional grade work and if so how did it compare to Photoshop? I've used both pieces of software and I know as well as anyone else that The GIMP doesn't measure up to Photoshop in features. The GIMP also has a horrible user interface that no one seems interested in fixing any time soon. The GIMP is also a horrible name and I hate hearing it every time that it comes out of my mouth. I feel like I'm making fun of people that don't walk that well. ;)

Your Open Office example is better but you know as well as I do that it lags behind Microsoft Office in many ways. Although that has a lot to do with Microsoft coming up with a new file format every couple of years.

As for there begin no alternatives to vBulletin or IPB; I must disagree. There are plenty of open source, non-open source but free, and commercial alternatives out there. Heck you could even start your own if you really wanted to. vB and IPB are just the "big boys" these days is all. If you _really_ wanted to get away from them you could. Why you don't is beyond me but I'm betting it has a lot to do with your needs as an end user. ;)

[cheat-master30]

Okay, that was a really badly phrased piece of wording. I did not mean there's no alternative to vBulletin and Invision the forum software, although I guess my wording was way off. I meant for many of the paid mods, there's no free alternative. I know vBulletin and Invision have free alternatives (which could be listed over 16 pages of lists), but things like vB SEO, or paid products like those from vB Advanced, or RPG systems (which indeed don't even have a paid alternative as Inferno Technologies vanished off the face of the planet) and any form of shop type system (vB Commerce is either encrypted or paid, vB Plaza went fully paid and most of the alternatives either died with vBulletin 3 or 3.5).

Then again, why the hell did this get revived?

[Lizard King]

Do you know how many support members vBSEO have ? Do you have any idea what kind of a support level they offer to their customers. Do you have any idea the quality of vBSEO code ? Do you know how much it will take to cover all the support staff expenses , development expenses etc ? You should be gratefull to vBSEO as they release a very important product for free at vb.org and also support it. It is clear that you dont hve any idea on any of the above questions. Thats why you should stop using vBSEO as an example. If you need it on your board , you can purchase it. If not stop whinning about it.

Everyone has a right to use any kind of encyription on the programs they code. I personally donot release anything that is even a little complex on vb.org anymore because i have no time to support it and i have no intention to help people making money from my work. Also i want to protect my code as releasing it free can help a person to steal my code. Paid addons have the same problem. In order to protect their code and investment they encode their product.

Auality is important on a program you use. And quality products always deserve to get paid.

[Marco van Herwaarden]

Plese don't let this thread turn into a love/hate thread for vBSEO, it will be closed quickly if this continues.

[Dean C]

May I just add that Lizard King works for vBSEO, so I don't understand why he continues to act as if he is objective whenever the subject matter arises...

[Marco van Herwaarden]

That is already obvious by the posts he makes.

[cheat-master30]

Everyone has a right to use any kind of encyription on the programs they code. I personally donot release anything that is even a little complex on vb.org anymore because i have no time to support it and i have no intention to help people making money from my work. Also i want to protect my code as releasing it free can help a person to steal my code. Paid addons have the same problem. In order to protect their code and investment they encode their product.

How about just using the law, like Jelsoft uses? And there's still no excuse to why sometimes FREE products are encrypted. So you're scared people will add features they personally want with paying $999.99 for the super deluxe premium addition? Scared people will actually modify it and realise that the super deluxe premium addition isn't as brilliant as it's been advertised? Seriously, the sheer amount of people who seem to think the fear of others stealing their work is worth making it harder, if not impossible for technically advanced users to use for their own purposes is ridiculous.

Oh, and I'm not going to use vB SEO as an example any more, it's obvious that every single mention of it causes a flame war or pages long debate to break out between it's supporters and haters.

[Dean C]

Can I ask, how old are you cheat-master30?

[cheat-master30]

Not a kid by quite a few years, but I refuse to give any public information about myself for any reason. So in other words, as most people can tell from the refusal to give out my actual name, or any other information, I won't disclose such information.

In other words, I'm an adult, but my age is not going to be disclosed at any future time, because it has no relation to the actual debate in question given in this topic, and basing arguments on the individual rather than the argument is a fallacy.

[Lizard King]

May I just add that Lizard King works for vBSEO, so I don't understand why he continues to act as if he is objective whenever the subject matter arises...
I never claimed i didn't work for vBSEO Dean and it has nothing to do with the subject as the subject has nothing to do with vBSEO. So please try staying on the subject as Marco already warned that thread will be locked if the subject focus will be vBSEO.

--------------- Added 1223728830 at 1223728830 ---------------

How about just using the law, like Jelsoft uses? And there's still no excuse to why sometimes FREE products are encrypted. So you're scared people will add features they personally want with paying $999.99 for the super deluxe premium addition? Scared people will actually modify it and realise that the super deluxe premium addition isn't as brilliant as it's been advertised? Seriously, the sheer amount of people who seem to think the fear of others stealing their work is worth making it harder, if not impossible for technically advanced users to use for their own purposes is ridiculous.

What law are you talking about. If i wrote a script , every right of the script belongs to me. Noone expect me decides what i will do with it. I can encrypt it , throw it to thrash , give it to everyone free , or even ask 10000$ for a single license. It is the person who codes is the decision maker not Jelsoft or any other company.

Unfortunately i agree with Dean as it is clear that your age directly involves this discussion.

[cheat-master30]

I never claimed i didn't work for vBSEO Dean and it has nothing to do with the subject as the subject has nothing to do with vBSEO. So please try staying on the subject as Marco already warned that thread will be locked if the subject focus will be vBSEO.

--------------- Added 11 Oct 2008 at 13:40 ---------------



What law are you talking about. If i wrote a script , every right of the script belongs to me. Noone expect me decides what i will do with it. I can encrypt it , throw it to thrash , give it to everyone free , or even ask 10000$ for a single license. It is the person who codes is the decision maker not Jelsoft or any other company.

Unfortunately i agree with Dean as it is clear that your age directly involves this discussion.

I meant use the DCMA notices and copyright law to get the hosts or providers of the people who've stolen your scripts to shut down their site, and maybe have them prosecuted in the process. Like how Jelsoft relies on people to report piracy via a form.

[smacklan]

I meant use the DCMA notices and copyright law to get the hosts or providers of the people who've stolen your scripts to shut down their site, and maybe have them prosecuted in the process. Like how Jelsoft relies on people to report piracy via a form.
You obviously don't know how weak the DMCA is, or ever heard of offshore hosting in countries that could give a flip about US copyright laws...nevermind about having to hire an attorney to try and prosecute someone. All of your arguments are strawmen and weak. You've made no point about anything with your thread other than you're cheap and a whiner.

[cheat-master30]

Seems to work well enough for Jelsoft and Invision.

[smacklan]

Seems to work well enough for Jelsoft and Invision.
Care to provide some stats to back that up? I happen to know Howard at Pirate Reports quite well and know from his experience and my own that 90% of pirated sites do not get shut down.

[lasto]

the guy who started this thread does have some argument and i agree with him.
The prices for any hack is really expensive these days and people need to get a reality check and stop asking for hundreds of pounds for a small hack.
TBH vbulletin is nothing like it used to be in yrs gone by.Members would help one another and if u asked for something - someone would knock something up for u and post it but these days its all changed - the only reply u will get is `how much are u willing to pay`
Everyone is sitting on the side line with paypal accounts at the ready waiting for the next `Requests for paid hacks` thread to appear.

[Lizard King]

Seems to work well enough for Jelsoft and Invision.
Do you know how much hiring an attorney costs. Do you think a coder should spend that much money just to release unencoded scripts to please you. Also dealing with attorneys will also take your valuable time. Thats why that is the worse option for a small company or a coder.

the guy who started this thread does have some argument and i agree with him.
The prices for any hack is really expensive these days and people need to get a reality check and stop asking for hundreds of pounds for a small hack.
TBH vbulletin is nothing like it used to be in yrs gone by.Members would help one another and if u asked for something - someone would knock something up for u and post it but these days its all changed - the only reply u will get is `how much are u willing to pay`
Everyone is sitting on the side line with paypal accounts at the ready waiting for the next `Requests for paid hacks` thread to appear.
Yes , vB.org was better old days and released modifications had much more quality and feature. However the community was not that big then and people didnt use to make a lot of money from their sites. Thats why vb.org used to be a place where people can learn coding etc.. Supporting addons were not that bad as community used to support all released products. But look now , it is grown a lot and it is nearly impossible to support free products. It takes too much time and effort. Unfortunately we all have personal life , family etc.. and thats the reason no one does it anymore.

[The Geek]

I'm not sure where the connection is failing to be made.

You suggest that people should work for you at no charge to you. Then claim that they should also have no protection over their work. You insist that if a copyright violation were to occur, they can always go pay solicitors to fight the good fight like other software houses do (i.e. vB and IPB which oddly enough CHARGE YOU FOR THEIR SOFTWARE).

You know what? I like to read. But I am really sick of having to pay for books. Why cant authors just produce free books. On that note, all music, movies and petrol for my car should be free as well. Why? Because I am me!

The welfare mind set and its accompanying arguments are ignorant. People contribute on here for free all the time. The ratio of free mods to paid mods is most likely greater than 100:1. You are really complaining that the 99% isn't good enough for you? You must have it all? If that is the case, then any functionality that you do not want to pay for (i.e. vbSEO or any other commercial system you used as an example)... go make yourself instead of crying that others should do it for you at no cost to you (just time and money for them). Its really not any more complex than that. Quit expecting everyone to give you something without anything in return.

[y2ksw]

You have made your point, now may I? :)


Why the hell is everything for money now?
We must make a living, you, me, everybody. It rarely will happen a multi-milionaire to be a programmer willing to make small and big additions for free. This always has been like this, and since I remember, only old software was given for free or as a trial. The idea of Open Source was wrongly taken as Freeware = software of free and completely unpaid use. While the latter may work for Multinationals like IBM, it is the definite death of smaller companies and single developers. Strangely Open Source was enforced by the large companies, right in the view to absorb (= kill and at best employ) the small developers. Please try to make a living of coding only, and you'll see what I'm talking about. ;)
Prices from Hell?
The pricing depends on the quality and work which is put into a software product, and the number of sold copies and customers. While some developers make ridiculous offers, most sell under cost else they won't sell at all.
Lite does not equal feature non existant
Many times, a light version is identical to the "extended" versions, but the way how customers and requests are handled are different. Paying customers have priority support, and can ask for features which may eventually never become published. Usually, paying customers are much more happy with a product than the free fellows, because they get also a service. Freeware is like an ambulance with no driver. Paid software has not only a driver, but also a doctor on board. Many customers prefer the latter.
Encryption? What the hell?
Right. Encryption is a mod killer. but it is also the only ensurance the customer has not messed with the code and therefore there is no excuse for both sides. You can't imagine how often it happens to hear: "Oops, sorry, I have made a small change here ... does it matter?". Of course it does. I have wasted many days on searching for errors where they haven't been. But you're right, too, the code should be in clear text. What is missing to PHP is a "No Mess Lock", or an automatic warrant system, which tells a coder the source has been tampered with.
'But for vBulletin and Invision there ARE NO alternatives.'
Right. The point is, that at one side there are no free developers (top guns) available, and on the other that there is nobody willing to pay for an alternate product, even though they could make a lot of money directly by sale or on other behalf, for example advertising. And then it doesn't cost so much as somebody may believe, but no matter what, there is nobody willing to pay.
Custom Coding costs thousands of dollars/pounds...
Yes, but thousands, not hundreds of thousands. It depends also if you want crap or quality. I want to recall that a top-gun developer rarely writes more than a few hundred lines of code daily, and sometimes sits on a single line for many days. But that code will still work when all other software has stopped. Two third of my customers have paid 3-8 times as much as if they had called a professional first.
Piracy forces encryption!
No. Pirates have always existed and will be able to obtain the code if they really want. Good code will always be pirated, and there is no measure to avoid this, except for frequent updates. In fact this is the best existing anti-piracy strategy. If they had to update weekly, they quickly would give up - too much work for nothing ;)


--------------- Added 1223856333 at 1223856333 ---------------

Whenever an ordinary fan calls out another person to try their hand at something (making a film, creating a videogame, or writing a book) before criticizing it, that person has lost the argument
Sorry, but I couldn't resist :D

We aren't ordinary fans - all posts I have read here are coming from professionals or at least upcoming coders and designers. We are the film-makers, and you are watching our movie and hate to pay for it :rolleyes:

[cheat-master30]

You have made your point, now may I? :)

Why the hell is everything for money now?
We must make a living, you, me, everybody. It rarely will happen a multi-milionaire to be a programmer willing to make small and big additions for free. This always has been like this, and since I remember, only old software was given for free or as a trial. The idea of Open Source was wrongly taken as Freeware = software of free and completely unpaid use. While the latter may work for Multinationals like IBM, it is the definite death of smaller companies and single developers. Strangely Open Source was enforced by the large companies, right in the view to absorb (= kill and at best employ) the small developers. Please try to make a living of coding only, and you'll see what I'm talking about. ;)

Erm... I was comparing to the days gone by a bit and how it seems when something is free there are more volunteers rather than people demanding money for everything. Of course, I'm not sure what people think about the open source licenses that basically say any use of the code must also be free as with anything that integrates with the code, it basically says 'tough luck, no charging for anything related to this product'. Then again, I've seen quite a few sites with a really nice idea, anything submitted to them that gets abandoned by the author gets moved to a section where anyone who wants to can update/finish it in their own time. Basically, the audience gets to finish those things left unfinished by the original authors, which is pretty much the use of reuseable code.




Lite does not equal feature non existant
Many times, a light version is identical to the "extended" versions, but the way how customers and requests are handled are different. Paying customers have priority support, and can ask for features which may eventually never become published. Usually, paying customers are much more happy with a product than the free fellows, because they get also a service. Freeware is like an ambulance with no driver. Paid software has not only a driver, but also a doctor on board. Many customers prefer the latter.


By that, I mean REALLY light version. As in for your ambulance example, no driver, three wheels and no brakes. As in, I understand fully the whole idea of no support, just that in these cases there's no just no support, the product is so lacking it's basically:

1. Nearly completely unusable for the purpose of the modification. Lite enough to make even the basic 3.7 album system that's constantly been criticised for this look as feature rich as vBulletin itself.
2. It's basically a great big advertisement saying 'buy the paid product' on a free website that doesn't allow paid products. Think of it like those people who might post three lines from a paid article and then say underneath 'to read the rest of this article go to mysite.com and pay ?999.99'.

Seriously, these kinds of mods are really pushing the rules here to the limit in terms of near uselessness. At this rate, it'd wouldn't surprise me to see time limited 'Lite versions' now and people getting moderated for it.



Encryption? What the hell?
Right. Encryption is a mod killer. but it is also the only ensurance the customer has not messed with the code and therefore there is no excuse for both sides. You can't imagine how often it happens to hear: "Oops, sorry, I have made a small change here ... does it matter?". Of course it does. I have wasted many days on searching for errors where they haven't been. But you're right, too, the code should be in clear text. What is missing to PHP is a "No Mess Lock", or an automatic warrant system, which tells a coder the source has been tampered with.


I'd like some system like that, except just displays a great big message saying that it was 'altered by a user' when there's an error or something.




Custom Coding costs thousands of dollars/pounds...
Yes, but thousands, not hundreds of thousands. It depends also if you want crap or quality. I want to recall that a top-gun developer rarely writes more than a few hundred lines of code daily, and sometimes sits on a single line for many days. But that code will still work when all other software has stopped. Two third of my customers have paid 3-8 times as much as if they had called a professional first.

I'm not criticising the cost of custom coding. Just saying the pricing model isn't transferrable to off the shelf software.



Piracy forces encryption!
No. Pirates have always existed and will be able to obtain the code if they really want. Good code will always be pirated, and there is no measure to avoid this, except for frequent updates. In fact this is the best existing anti-piracy strategy. If they had to update weekly, they quickly would give up - too much work for nothing ;)
--------------- Added 13 Oct 2008 at 01:05 ---------------



Erm... I wasn't backing that piracy enforces encryption, I was attacking a common argument that would probably (and has) been given in this topic before it came up.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist :D

We aren't ordinary fans - all posts I have read here are coming from professionals or at least upcoming coders and designers. We are the film-makers, and you are watching our movie and hate to pay for it :rolleyes:[/quote]

The point still stands. You don't need 'expertise' to criticise anything. It's a very similar argument to saying 'only a scientist can criticise scientific knowledge' or what not. Saying 'I'd like to see you do better' and expecting that because someone cannot do better at whatever means they're wrong is a fallacy. You don't need to know how to make movies to say how a movie sucks, or know economics to say that there are unfair business decisions or various other stuff. Sometimes I really wish vBulletin would have a 'no use of code in paid deriative works' addition to their terms of service to stop much of this.

[The Geek]

The point still stands. You don't need 'expertise' to criticise anything. It's a very similar argument to saying 'only a scientist can criticise scientific knowledge' or what not. Saying 'I'd like to see you do better' and expecting that because someone cannot do better at whatever means they're wrong is a fallacy. You don't need to know how to make movies to say how a movie sucks, or know economics to say that there are unfair business decisions or various other stuff. Sometimes I really wish vBulletin would have a 'no use of code in paid deriative works' addition to their terms of service to stop much of this.

This is an applicable argument to criticise entertainment, but not someones work. For instance, I would need some level of scientific background to criticise Einsteins theory of relativity if I wanted to come off as something other than an ignorant schmuck. Criticise a movie because you paid for entertainment and didn't get it. Criticise a book because you bought it and did not enjoy the ending. But saying that vB shouldn't allow people to charge for their modifications because you don't want to buy them is truly silly. How about... you just don't buy them? Why on Earth would you insist that since you don't want to buy them 'no one can'?!?

Saying 'lets see you do better' is to totally miss the mark (not sure if this is on purpose). What is being said is: If you want functionality that is only present in a paid mod, then code a free version. That is the beauty of freedom.

[nexialys]

that's why film critics are written by critics, not fans... fans are biased, critics are educated to the movies market.

you can become a critic if you've been a fan one day, but basically you will need to study all the aspects of filmmaking before having a social impact... saying "i love this film because the actress have big boobs" is frm a fan... saying "i think this film have an impact because the actress and big boobs and the fans like big boobs" IS a critic...

Cheat, you are actually trying to critic the market but you are just a fan... sorry.

[SEOvB]

you can become a critic if you've been a fan one day, but basically you will need to study all the aspects of filmmaking before having a social impact... saying "i love this film because the actress have big boobs" is frm a fan... saying "i think this film have an impact because the actress and big boobs and the fans like big boobs" IS a critic...



When will your releases have big boobs included with them!

[nexialys]

When will your releases have big boobs included with them!

i knew you'd be interested by our "Master of All Joys and Pleasures for Moderators" hack ....

[cheat-master30]

This is an applicable argument to criticise entertainment, but not someones work. For instance, I would need some level of scientific background to criticise Einsteins theory of relativity if I wanted to come off as something other than an ignorant schmuck.

Again, kind of misses another point. Scientific knowledge is most probably not needed to criticise science (I will likely get flamed for this). That's why various philosophers and even various religious people with varying knowledge of science state quite boldly various opinions about science and what not. Not exactly the best example, especially with how multiple fields often critique various things. Take a lot of what is given in psychology. Then take how various philosophers for example completely disagree with it and their method.

And I'm not criticising for my own purposes. I have no need for most of the paid modifications I've mentioned, it's just a lot of people most obviously do (see how often requests for them come up here?) and how there's obviously a gap where competition should exist but doesn't.

[Lizard King]

As i stated before i will really like to know your age because i dont want to discuss things with a 12 year old teenage.

[The Geek]

There is a difference between criticising something and offering your uneducated opinion.

There is no competition. If you think a paid for mod should be free... go write a free version. Stop insisting that others do it for you.

[SEOvB]

I wonder if he'll ever get the hint you want him to learn to code Geek?

[y2ksw]

By that, I mean REALLY light version. As in for your ambulance example, no driver, three wheels and no brakes. As in, I understand fully the whole idea of no support, just that in these cases there's no just no support, the product is so lacking it's basically:

1. Nearly completely unusable for the purpose of the modification. Lite enough to make even the basic 3.7 album system that's constantly been criticised for this look as feature rich as vBulletin itself.
2. It's basically a great big advertisement saying 'buy the paid product' on a free website that doesn't allow paid products. Think of it like those people who might post three lines from a paid article and then say underneath 'to read the rest of this article go to mysite.com and pay ?999.99'.

Seriously, these kinds of mods are really pushing the rules here to the limit in terms of near uselessness. At this rate, it'd wouldn't surprise me to see time limited 'Lite versions' now and people getting moderated for it.
I agree. Modifications which are so light they will fail any serious test are about the worst examples of publishing, and unfortunately quite a lot, including also unwillingly introduced "Light" versions of starters.

Starters are often encouraged by their family and friends to show what they can do, and this is what we get. I'm not against starters, but I would like to see a Kid Corner where approaching coders and designers try their best to become famous :).

[Netunt]

3. Lite does not equal feature non existant

The only reason people make "lite" editions of their product is to advertise the full version.

[y2ksw]

The point still stands. You don't need 'expertise' to criticise anything. It's a very similar argument to saying 'only a scientist can criticise scientific knowledge' or what not. Saying 'I'd like to see you do better' and expecting that because someone cannot do better at whatever means they're wrong is a fallacy. You don't need to know how to make movies to say how a movie sucks, or know economics to say that there are unfair business decisions or various other stuff. Sometimes I really wish vBulletin would have a 'no use of code in paid deriative works' addition to their terms of service to stop much of this.
To criticise anything they must have a minimum of knowledge of the argument.

If for example somebody tries to stitch a brand on a tire, they may criticise the needle to be too weak or the rubber be too strong. But unless they don't know that tires are not for stitching, their criticism is worthless. :)

I usually support all the software I've ever made, in order to understand what people really need. When I get criticised, I try to fix the problem or explain the reasons of the missing feature, in that order. And sometime I admit I can't fix it.

No program or addon is perfect, but it may become still reasonably interesting to many people if there is the good will to make the best of it. And in this sense I agree with you.

[nexialys]

The only reason people make "lite" editions of their product is to advertise the full version.

If Netunt, a complete newbie on the site is able to figure this out by himself, i don't know why someone so used to the site can't understand that statement...

anyway, this was an essay, in french "essayer" mean "try"... so you try to figure out things if i see it right?

[y2ksw]

As i stated before i will really like to know your age because i dont want to discuss things with a 12 year old teenage.
The choice of vocabulary, and the ability to express the same concept in different ways in order to make himself understood, let me believe I am talking to somebody about the fourties. He may cheat but if he does, he does it darn well ;)

[SEOvB]

If Netunt, a complete newbie on the site is able to figure this out by himself, i don't know why someone so used to the site can't understand that statement...


post count != smarts
(made apparent by this thread)

or something like that

[Gio~Logist]

Um, am I missing something here? Is our marketing approach to the way we market our products not the same as everywhere else?

You want a light/trial/limited version, you can find it for free. You want something with a bit more features and possibly support as well, you pay for it.

"Try to buy"
"Free demo"
"We're so convinced you'll like it, we'll let you try it for free"
"Here's the light version, now just imagine what the premium can do"

This type of thing exists everywhere. Do you call Adobe and flame them for offering 60 day trials for free when they can just offer their product entirely for free?

A thread with 5 pages, arguing what, whether or not we should charge for modifications? lol. Is that even a question, seriously? Why not demand that designs, custom scripts, and everything in addition be free as well? Sorry, it won't happen. Some people build cars and get thousands, we build products/websites and get paid for that. You yourself said you have no reason to purchase any of the products you've seen around here, so why the complaint?

When you find someone who is so well-off that they just feel like writing thousands of lines of codes, getting headaches along the way, offering a lending hand to webmaster using the product, etc. for free... By all means, bow to them. I will do the same. Till then, there are a variety of experienced and professional programmers and devs all accross this website as well as others doing their jobs and developing products catering towards the needs of extending vbulletin's software.

Why do you think vbulletin's so popular? Not only is it a kick-ass product, but it's a kick-ass product with... Well, kick ass products ;) Sorry if you feel like kicking our ass for that :p

[smacklan]

Why do you think vbulletin's so popular? Not only is it a kick-ass product, but it's a kick-ass product with... Well, kick ass products
You really hit the nail on the head with this. In it's infancy vbulletin was working hard to grow a product and following and fostering a "community" of mod'ers made smart business sense. Along the way those who contributed to the success and popularity of vbulletin wised up and realized they could (and should) make some income on their hard work as well. Today you have a product in vbulletin that, although very good on it's own merits, would not be half what it is without the cottage industries that have sprung up around it and make it all that more appealing to the masses. The biggest problem I see today is vb.com should merge vb.org into it's parent site and start officially supporting that arm of it's business. To claim vb.org is not part of the corporate entity that is vb.com and try and "sell" it as something it no longer is and hasn't been in a long time is very misleading. The time has long passed for this site to become a full-fledged arm of the business, staffed by paid employees and finding an official way to promote the cottage industries that are so integral to their continued success. To continue to "advertise" this place up as some "enthusiasts and hobbyists" playground leads to this very discussion we are having...among a myriad of other problems and issues.

[Gio~Logist]

You really hit the nail on the head with this. In it's infancy vbulletin was working hard to grow a product and following and fostering a "community" of mod'ers made smart business sense. Along the way those who contributed to the success and popularity of vbulletin wised up and realized they could (and should) make some income on their hard work as well. Today you have a product in vulletin that, although very good on it's own merits, would not be half what it is without the cottage industries that have sprung up around it and make it all that more appealing to the masses. The biggest problem I see today is vb.com should merge vb.org into it's parent site and start officially supporting that arm of it's business. To claim vb.org is not part of the corporate entity that is vb.com and try and "sell" it as something it no longer is and hasn't been in a long time is very misleading. The time has long passed for this site to become a full-fledged arm of the business, staffed by paid employees and finding an official way to support the cottage industries that are so integral to their continued success. To continue to "advertise" this place up as some "enthusiast's and hobbyists" playground is stupid...and blatently obvious to so many.

Glad to see we share the same views ;) Great website btw, you guys seem to be doing well :up:

[Dean C]

I actually cannot believe the level of ignorance you are showing OP, and I have to say it: lack of maturity.

By your logic anyone can disagree with anything without knowing anything about it.

[Shelley_c]

You know how to tee yourself up for the storm that was to come OP.

What other people failed to mention in this thread was that as well as making a living from their hard work... why should they contribute and support their products to a bunch of whinning, whinging (the majority of the memberbase)? complaining people constantly asking "why have you not included this feature" or "why haven't you made me breakfast in bed". People are human and get sick and tired of this.

Now I was a keen advocate in supporting and contributing free products but sooner or later (as well as people needing to make a living) they just can't be bothered to contribute to the whinging majority.

ps I'm back after my weeks vacation so you can jump back down from the plates that you kindly kept warm.

[PixelFx]

*blinks* that was a lot of reading, and why include vbcommerce in the post, its free when its released, sures it's encrypted but still free for 1 shop, *cringes* but the core is free, and its not a lite script, all our core mods are free and 1000's of hours building them so end users here and on our site can benifit and I think between dark and I we've done a hella job supporting both on this site and other.

Our general argument as far as pro addons go is if others can make money from our work we should earn a little bit. I think thats fair. People can earn a hell of a lot form our free mods as well which makes up 90% of our work. go figour..

Sure we have a few pro addons but they are nothing to compared to the level of quality of our free mods and fully supported no contracts there.

As developers for example, dark and I both gotta eat, most of our pro mods don't even support our pop and chip habbit to crank out top quality free mods for vbulletin.

Like anyone here I like and use free mods, but we understand the amount of work that goes into coding this and for that reason if there is a pro mod for vbulletin that I like I'll buy it and not question its cost.

I've bought ever month that The Geek as made simply cause his work is awesome, and the products are solid. I have no problems paying for mods, and appeciate the developers that make both free and commercial products. It all takes time and is hard work.

[cheat-master30]

Thanks for answering, and it's nice to know that nearly everyone that could possibly give their opinion in this topic has given their opinion, since it's made this into a rather interesting debate to say the least.

Never the less, I may as well answer some of your points, since I like an intelligent discussion on various forums and what not.

*blinks* that was a lot of reading, and why include vbcommerce in the post, its free when its released, sures it's encrypted but still free for 1 shop, *cringes* but the core is free, and its not a lite script, all our core mods are free and 1000's of hours building them so end users here and on our site can benifit and I think between dark and I we've done a hella job supporting both on this site and other.

Yes, it's a lot of reading. I do like a minimum of a thousand words in every single article I've written yet, or at least five hundred words, because bite sized articles I find kind of boring. Back to the question, the reason I included vB Commerce in this is pretty much two fold; because the premium editions go on a price scale I last saw in Jive software (aka, rather expensive on a per user basis), and mainly because of the encryption point. In fact, it's the second point that is my key gripe, partly because of three things:

1. Being encrypted, you cannot tell a multitude of important things. Aka, what the code is, what's included in the code (such as ability for developers to disable at any time, security issues and bugs and hidden features), the quality of the code and pretty much every other thing.

2. You can't add any features yourself, integrate it with anything custom coded or fix any bugs you've found yourself, including security issues.

3. Call home via license system. And I've read that on vbcredits.com, which basically means the server needs to connect to your server every single time the script is run, which means sites without such access (aka, on many shared hosts) are completely unable to use the script. Plus, it means if vbcredits ever goes bust, out of existance or the domain is lost, the script is completely useless.

Aka the usual reasons why many people do NOT run encrypted software, and reasons which need to be answered.

And I know you've done a great job and a lot of work (I was hearing of vB Commerce first sometime last year, which means probably over a year of work already, a lot for a modification). I would honestly in that case probably be fine with paying the full price for the most featured packed version if it wasn't encrypted, albeit this seems to be something paid mod authors can't seem to grasp (aka, encryption loses them even more sales than the prices).



Our general argument as far as pro addons go is if others can make money from our work we should earn a little bit. I think thats fair. People can earn a hell of a lot form our free mods as well which makes up 90% of our work. go figour..



Of course it's fair. I can't really say anything about the rest of your answer, it's saying about the price which I've responded to.

[PixelFx]

Feel free to carry this debate on at our site if you want, we can answer any questions related to our products there. I can understand both legit and non legit business not liking encryption however we back and support all our work for legal members 100%.

As for free or not, I think most of us here would like to earn enough do what we love full time, both dark and I work full time jobs on top of doing what we do here and on our vbc site.

As for how long we've worked on vbc, we've worked on all of it for over 2 years now.

At the sacrafice of family putting up placks on the walls saying have you see pixelfx / darkwaltz4, missing in action, or leaving food at our door steps hoping we'd come out for air. Vs coding 1000s of hours litterally.

The primary focus of this stuff has been to help vbulletin owners earn income with their sites. But we also want to earn enough to live and or do this full time. So we've had to make choices, which with this debate people are either happy or not so happy with.

But when it comes down to it, everyone on this site is doing there best to release something cool that will enchance vbulletin beyond its' basic features. And for free when humanly possible.

[MarkoP]

Remember not everyone has free time. I contributed most to this community when I was a lot younger, still at school and college (a good amount of years ago now). I didn't have to pay bills, or pay for food to put in my mouth and I had an abundance of free time. But times change, and now I have to support myself, pay for my education and pay my rent and utility bills etc.

I could sit around coding all day to give you guys something for free, or I could sit around all day coding something and make some money to support myself and avoid getting into debt.

Go figure which one I choose, and also note that a lot of the people on here have far more to support than I do. There's a lot of coders on here who have families to support. Do you expect them to give up their work for free too? :)


Well said!!

I happily pay for work I want done. In fact I'd rather, I usually end up with far better mods that actually 'work'...

[nexialys]

or leaving food at our door steps hoping we'd come out for air.
so you loved my apple-pie, don't you ??... ;)

[MrFlicks]

I have ideas RE a Charity addon/mod distributable as both open source and paid versions that could well may be relevant to this in more ways than are immediately presently apparent . . .

[PixelFx]

so you loved my apple-pie, don't you ??... ;)

what type of apples? ;) mmmm

[nexialys]

the one designed in the bottom of my monitor.. lol

[cheat-master30]

Although not quite related to the topic, I'm curious to know exactly why you've made every single forum on vbcredits.com private? It's kind of really bad for SEO, and I've seen it so much on new forums now it's getting rather annoying (and with the current post count there, I don't really think having say... more members than posts will look any good).

[J105C]

I agree with everything the thread starter said. Good thoughts and good opinions :D

[nexialys]

J105C, you're a client, for sure.. lol

[merk_aus]

Ok can I just say i may get flammed for this however would like to agree with certain points the OP has said - however also agree with all of the coders with some points they have brought up.

I agree that coders/developers have lives and families and that stuff is not free, you need to pay for electricity, food, petrol etc please do not get me wrong I definatly agree with all of that and have no issues with you guys charging some cash to earn enough to pay for those items.

I do agree that some addons do seem over priced - however with the amount of work that goes into them i do agree that they deserve to charge for items. The one thing that really annoys me is the fact that a coder releases "Lite" version of their products.

You install it - and it seems perfect for your forums - whether your trying to make money through your forums or not - you go to the developers/coders website (as they do not support their lite versions only premium) and want to pay for the premium version - but to do that you need to first buy membership - so after uming and aarring you buy membership, you then purchase the script hoping that your forums are going to take off now that you have the full version of it - however you go to install and there is a line of code missing etc and the mod doesnt work.

so you trek back to the developers website and its completly dead - no new posts - you log in and all of a sudden you can not post, you submit support tickets and nothing. I could sit here and rattle of a number of mods that this has happened with but am not here to start arguements.

I agree with the OP about the encryption - HOLD ON A SECOND AND READ - I completly agree that developers/coders should be able to protect their work, and stand behind them 100% - however I do not like licensing systems - where my website has to communicate with their site to keep the mod working - i do not like the idea of that because if something does happen to their website etc this mod is useless.

[nexialys]

you will not get flammed , you have the opinion of the client, which is what the OP is wrong when he talk with the voice of the coder, but that's all.. :)

[Rich]

I didn't read this entire thread as I do not have that kind of time right now. I did however read the first post and want to comment on it.

If you run a search on the threads and posts I have created on this site, you will find that I was a complete noob to coding when I started working with vBulletin. During that time frame, I too was like a welfare child and wanted everything given to me for free. The concept of paying for modifications was insane and shouldn't exist. As I said, I was like the typical welfare child.

As my knowledge of vBulletin increased, and I started to learn how to manipulate the code, so too did my outlook on "free" stuff. Once you start coding your own modifications and see the hours you invest in it, giving it away doesn't seem logical anymore.

If you want to see stuff given away, learn to code and give it away. Don't complain about the coders who are charging. You seem to think that their knowledge and time should be given away, or should cost what YOU think its worth. You couldn't have a more ignorant arguement if you tried.

Everyone wants their website to be unique from their competitors. The unique site that functions the best will get the most traffic. If your site is monetized, this means that your site will also get more funding. If everything was cheap or free, every site would be pretty much the same. I know I don't want my site looking like everyone elses.

The cheap people out there (I was one of them) want to be able to have everything those that invest in their sites have. They want all of this at rock bottom prices, or free. They are like those people who are on welfare and somehow feel that everyone else should eat the costs for their stuff.

If you want something for your site, buy it. Stop whining about how you can't get it free and grow up already. If you want it for free, go to school and become a programmer. After you have your degree and can code these modifications yourself, come back to the site and release a version for free of every paid modification. I can 100% guarantee that you will never do that, and you would never be able to support the modifications.

I can also guarantee that if you do begin releasing those mods, you will come across many users who do nothing but complain that you are missing features, don't offer fast enough support, and that though its free it could/should be better than what it is.

Like I have been saying, your argement is almost exactly comparable to the welfare system here in the U.S. You want everything for nothing.

(Start releasing those mods, and I mean all of them that are comparable to the paid mods, and you will confirm what I am saying.)

[lasto]

Like I have been saying, your argement is almost exactly comparable to the welfare system here in the U.S. You want everything for nothing.
well seems to work just fine for a lot of people as i live in a country that bows to people who want everything for free.

[merk_aus]

I can see both sides of the story - why each side is right - some mods to come overpriced, or like i said in my previous post you pay for it and it never gets released - or release dates continuously delayed, however i do believe coders should be paid for their effort.

Which is why I am saving up my money (which isn't easy in this current global economic epidemic, as well as having a wife, a young son and recovering from a knee reconstruction) in order to pay a coder for two mods i would like created - i am not going to say they are easy because i do not know how long it would take - but i strongly believe coders should be paid for their services- and i do admire the ones who release their mods for free i just wish there were more quality premium mods out there rather than people starting up sites that you join then crashing - or selling it off to someone else who does nothing with it. (vbgeek for one their mods are still in development, they start new mods before the one people want is actually created and only support u get is - i am not releasing a release date however great progress has been made - that has been for the last 9 months)

[intricatic]

I know this is a little late coming, but I just stumbled across this article and wanted to point something out.

The OP mentions that some paid modifications cost the same, or more than the stock vbulletin software does. This is to be expected; the OP referenced buying game consoles and software for them, but glossed over the concept of cars and car modifications entirely because that analogy would defeat the purpose of his rant.

When you purchase a car, often, if you enjoy modifying the vehicle, or wish to rebuild the vehicle more to your preferences, you may end up spending more than the car is valued at to accomplish your ends. Yes, you read that right. You may end up buying a new engine, new transmission, new electric system, new tires, new axles, but retain the body of the car and some of the more trivial performance enhancing systems that the car is built with. If you make such an undertaking, you don't complain that the engine, transmission, and electric system is more expensive than what you paid for the car, or that painting the car costs approximately 20% of what you paid because you insisted on having a fully custom job done that took three months to complete, because the end result is what you wanted, and you're happy to pay for that service.

In terms of aggregate supply and demand, services like that are expensive. If only one custom car shop exists, it becomes even more expensive because there is no other alternative for customization other than simply doing it yourself. If you don't have the knowledge and expertise to swap out an engine, or paint artist renderings on your vehicle without destroying something or mangling the paintjob, then you have to turn to the experts who do that kind of thing every day. Prices are set based on supply and demand. If the supply for some particular modification is high, and the demand low, then the prices will be low to reflect that, and vice versa.

If you don't want to spend a lot of money, then you have to settle for very minor or trivial alterations to the vehicle, because that's realistic and comfortable within your budget. Alternatively, you can learn how to modify cars yourself and bypass the entire boondoggle.

Deal with it; that's life.

[PixelFx]

It's vBulletin Tuner Culture Babe! (vBulletin.org is) lol We're just doing our best to pimp vbulletin up, not that vbulletin a solid product already! In our case, we've tried to balance free and paid addons. But the fact remains above that developers gotta eat and some of these engines, new tires and other take years to perfect. Some of what we've earned coding for clients and or script litterally been what he had for food money for a month. vBulletin.org is an asset for free pro addons, so we try to do the same back by releasing free pro addons here as well. I realize the hardwork and effort a lot of our pro community developers put into their scripts as well. Heck I have over 5 Owned Licences my self, and 14 client owned licenses I manage for vbulletin alone. This is definally the platform to build from and I have no problems paying for good scripts. Even for pro versions of stuff origional released free here if it can push the tech on one of my sites forward. Good programmers are hard to find, and it gives me more time to focus on design work, and other.

[intricatic]

Hey man, I make the most out of free mods all the time, but I use paid mods a lot, whenever I can find one that does something I want that isn't available in a free mod. I can't complain; I'm just happy it works they way it should work. :D There are a lot of very talented coders working with vbulletin, and that's one of the main reasons I use the software instead of one of the alternative platforms. I'm no developer, but I do lots of code changes to personalize my forum, and I do a lot of the style edits (I even put together entirely custom designs from time to time), so I get a very good perspective on how much work goes into a lot of these addon products, and I have nothing but appreciation for the hard work involved. If I have to pay a bit extra for something, who am I to complain? I gotta eat, too.